|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Bible and Useful Information
|
Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
|
Posted
Why doesn't the Bible include more in the way of useful information?
Why does it tell us not to covet, but not tell us that drinking water is safer when boiled? Why does it tell us the story of Eden, but not that cowpox can be used to innoculate against smallpox? So much pain and misery could have been avoided if God had just let these gems slip. But He didn't.
What does this say about God, His relationship with the world, and the Bible?
Two parameters, please:
- I am interested in the theological implications so, Atheists, please resist the "nothing, 'cos its all cobblers" replies.
- I don't think this question is about revisiting the Problem of Pain - more about what God chooses to reveal, and what not to reveal, and what that tells us.
--------------------
NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
Great question.
I would say that the point of the Bible is eternal life, not how to deal with physical-world issues like disease.
It's also interesting that even when it comes to spiritual information the Bible is pretty cagey. I think this is why Jesus promises more useful information in the future, when people are prepared to handle it.
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Oh, dear...where to begin.
First of all: The Bible isn't a handbook on science or politics or gender relations or household management or personal productivity. It isn't the end-all, be-all source for "useful information," nor does it ever claim to be so...nor do most Christians see it as such.
Actually Bible is not a "book" per se, but a series of texts written in different genres by different people in different times and places for different audiences. Their impetus was to convey their experience of God working through the history of their people/faith community -- not to give readers/hearers handy tips for living (scoldy stuff in the Pastoral Epistles notwithstanding).
For Christians who believe that the Bible didn't just "happen" but came to be compiled over time through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the discernment process of God's people reading/discussing/debating the texts, this collection taken as a whole also, and even primarily, has the purpose of pointing the reader to Christ. Martin Luther called it the cradle that holds Christ.
[ 09. July 2012, 14:42: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cedd
Shipmate
# 8436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I would say that the point of the Bible is eternal life, not how to deal with physical-world issues like disease.
Actually much of the law of Moses deals with real world issues like disease - lots about cleaning mildew off tents and so forth, not to mention cleanliness of food. I suspect that there is much more of this stuff than there is about 'eternal life'.
--------------------
Cedd
Churchmanship: This week I am mostly an evangelical, catholic, orthodox with both liberal and illiberal tendancies. Terms and conditions apply.
Posts: 377 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I would say that the point of the Bible is eternal life, not how to deal with physical-world issues like disease.
Actually much of the law of Moses deals with real world issues like disease - lots about cleaning mildew off tents and so forth, not to mention cleanliness of food. I suspect that there is much more of this stuff than there is about 'eternal life'.
That stuff was about ritual purity.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
Yes, there is some specific practical instruction in the Bible, but for the most part it does focus more on relationships-- to one another and to God.
That doesn't mean the physical world isn't important to God-- the Bible is clear that it is. It just simply isn't the main purpose or goal of the Bible.
But that doesn't mean that God doesn't reveal those things. I believe our minds-- our ability to remember, to preserve oral and written history, to discover through scientific exploration-- that's all God-given. So God has revealed things like how to avoid smallpox. It's just recorded in a different venue with a different goal/purpose.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I would say that the point of the Bible is eternal life, not how to deal with physical-world issues like disease.
Actually much of the law of Moses deals with real world issues like disease - lots about cleaning mildew off tents and so forth, not to mention cleanliness of food. I suspect that there is much more of this stuff than there is about 'eternal life'.
That stuff was about ritual purity.
Really? Because it's also pretty much exactly what a group of people wandering through a desert would need to do to stay healthy. It only became about ritual purity when they stopped wandering.
[ 09. July 2012, 14:51: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
You only think so because you have a 21st century understanding of disease.
[ 09. July 2012, 14:53: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You only think so because you have a 21st century understanding of disease.
What's your point?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Obviously that your categories don't apply to the text, and that the relevant sections refer to ritual purity (a concept the writers actually had) and not sanitation.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Obviously that your categories don't apply to the text, and that the relevant sections refer to ritual purity (a concept the writers actually had) and not sanitation.
Perhaps you miss my point. Yes, to the people of the time those things were all about ritual purity, but they also happened to be exactly what they needed if they were to cross the desert safely - the "useful information" to which the OP refers. God (or, if you prefer, Moses) provided instructions and commanded them to follow procedures that meant they would remain healthy in a hostile environment! How cool is that!
[ 09. July 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Pretty neato, but that doesn't make the text about modern concepts of sanitation.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
The point of the Bible is not necessarily about eternal life, but to relates how God interacts with the World and in particular in human history.
I like the UCC motto: God is still speaking, (Comma)
There are many "facts" that are related in the Bible. There are different facts than just scientific facts. (Interestingly, science avoids the use of that word. It prefers the word "data". Data can have different interpretations.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Pretty neato, but that doesn't make the text about modern concepts of sanitation.
Depends on your understanding of inspiration. Marvin is suggesting that, whether they realized it or not, God revealed those commands to the Israelites for the purpose of sanitation. Obviously Marvin is representing a relatively high view of inspiration. If you don't share that pov you would of course understand the texts differently.
[ 09. July 2012, 15:19: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Then according to the parable of the good Samaritan, pouring wine and oil in open wounds continues to be praiseworthy, though we know full well that such habits will only spread infection and kill people.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
I'd say there is quite a lot of factual information presented in the Bible, such as an elaborate legal code and hundreds of years of history. Sure, the history may or may not be accurate, but the same is true of plenty of other accounts.
As for the question of sanitary standards: When my mother was teaching nursing, she had her students read the passage about cleansing a house (scraping the walls and burning the scrapings and so on). The Israelites were not stupid people, or at least not stupid about everything.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cedd
Shipmate
# 8436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
...but not that cowpox can be used to innoculate against smallpox?
To take an obvious point, where would these scientific revelations end? Would there also be medical or scientific information that we may only discover in a few hundred or thousands of years from now? How would this information be expressed, in equations or formula which did not even exist at the time the bible was written? Where would it leave the whole point of science if all the answers were already there?
I understand the general point the OP is making (ie why does God allow suffering?) but, imo, to suggest that the bible was God's opportunity to help humanity avoid suffering and that it somehow missed that opportunity is a serious category error.
--------------------
Cedd
Churchmanship: This week I am mostly an evangelical, catholic, orthodox with both liberal and illiberal tendancies. Terms and conditions apply.
Posts: 377 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Possibly God has a better idea of humanity's real problem than humanity.
[ 09. July 2012, 15:35: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Possibly God has a better idea of humanity's real problem than humanity.
That's it exactly.
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Pretty neato, but that doesn't make the text about modern concepts of sanitation.
Well of course not - we (well, most of us) aren't in a nomadic tribe of desert wanderers any more.
I'm not sure why you have so much of a problem with this idea. Do you think God doesn't concern Himself at all with our physical needs?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Well of course not - we (well, most of us) aren't in a nomadic tribe of desert wanderers any more.
The text wasn't about modern concepts of sanitation for nomadic desert wanderers either. They thought they were maintaining ritual purity.
quote:
I'm not sure why you have so much of a problem with this idea. Do you think God doesn't concern Himself at all with our physical needs?
Because it employs an extremely dodgy exegetical technique than can and does distort the meaning of the text.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Well of course not - we (well, most of us) aren't in a nomadic tribe of desert wanderers any more.
The text wasn't about modern concepts of sanitation for nomadic desert wanderers either. They thought they were maintaining ritual purity.
Yes, I've already agreed that that's what they thought. Doesn't mean that was the only reason God had for inspiring those words, does it?
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure why you have so much of a problem with this idea. Do you think God doesn't concern Himself at all with our physical needs?
Because it employs an extremely dodgy exegetical technique than can and does distort the meaning of the text.
So what do you think is the meaning of those particular texts? A bunch of random purity rituals God came up with for no particular reason?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
Why doesn't the Bible include more in the way of useful information?
Why does it tell us not to covet, but not tell us that drinking water is safer when boiled?
Because there are other books about that?
If everything that is useful to know was in one book it would be very big...
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, to the people of the time those things were all about ritual purity, but they also happened to be exactly what they needed if they were to cross the desert safely - the "useful information" to which the OP refers. God (or, if you prefer, Moses) provided instructions and commanded them to follow procedures that meant they would remain healthy in a hostile environment!
Maybe. The trouble is that most of those laws do no such thing. I think they are mostly about holiness.
In God's mercy we have had prophets who told us about God's word when inspired by the Spirit. We've also had microbiologists who found out about bacterial infection by doing experiments. All equally created by God. But not usually the same people. (And doing experiments on God doesn't work)
[ 09. July 2012, 16:27: Message edited by: ken ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
So what do you think is the meaning of those particular texts? A bunch of random purity rituals God came up with for no particular reason?
I think the answer to that can be found by reading the text according to its own context. I am not arguing for a particular interpretation, only that your interpretation is impossible.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The trouble is that most of those laws do no such thing. I think they are mostly about holiness.
Are you actually denying the health import of avoiding mixed-fiber clothing?
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
Why doesn't the Bible include more in the way of useful information?
Why does it tell us not to covet, but not tell us that drinking water is safer when boiled? Why does it tell us the story of Eden, but not that cowpox can be used to innoculate against smallpox? So much pain and misery could have been avoided if God had just let these gems slip. But He didn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Possibly God has a better idea of humanity's real problem than humanity.
To go with the smallpox question specifically; given that God took the trouble to invent the stuff in the first place, wouldn't providing a cure be contrary to whatever reason He had for creating the stuff? If God didn't want people to suffer and die from smallpox, simply not creating it in the first place would be a lot simpler than inventing it and then providing an inoculant.
As Zach82 posits, perhaps things like the Smallpox Eradication Program were wasted effort addressing something that wasn't a "real problem".
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
As Zach82 posits, perhaps things like the Smallpox Eradication Program were wasted effort addressing something that wasn't a "real problem".
SIGH!
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
|
Posted
I don't know, I've always found that, like the vicar played by Alan Bennett in 'Beyond the Fringe', I can make it through the most terrible periods of despair by having a good long meditation on Genesis 27:11.
[ 09. July 2012, 17:21: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
--------------------
'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
|
Posted
Thank you all, but, honestly, I'm not finding these replies much help.
Don't we want it every which way? Lutheran Chick says that the Bible comes to us through the mediation of the Holy Spirit. Fine, and that's my point. If the Bible is God's revealed truth, why didn't he slip in the odd pointer that could have saved His people a world of horror?
"And the Lord said to his prophet, I shall rain fire on Basham! And pour sweet balm upon Mount Gilead! And holy is the man who boils his water and gives his washbowl a proper scrub." Why this revelation, but not that revelation?
"Possibly God has a better idea of humanity's real problem than humanity" ... is, I'm sorry, such a nasty response. So don't worry that the little scratch that father didn't know to clean went sceptic and the children were left to whore themselves to eat. Its OK, because in fact not knowing to clean scratches was not the real problem. Thanks for that, Good Shepherd.
I can see that the answer viz the Bible may be category error. Its never struck me before this string that the Bible reveals next-to-nothing that is useful materially. Writing that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, but it is true, isn't it? Nothing about how to light a fire or put a roof over your head, nothing about how to cure illness or stay alive. It may comfort you as your daughter lies dying, but it won't tell you how to cure her, however easily you could do it if only you knew. That's just not what it does.
But I am still stuck on, why are these truths revealed but not those truths?
One poster said that scientific truths are being revealed by the power of the Spirit. OK then, reframe the question - why has he chosen an insta-revelation that we should not hide our lights under bushels, but allowed millennia of agony to pass before telling us that if you rub yourself with a bit of cowpox scab then you won't die of smallpox?
Or maybe we noticed that for ourselves, and God had nothing to do with it? We are free creatures, and our ways are not His ways. Is there any reason to suppose that God cares about penicillin? The fact that He revealed Himself in His Son, and then two millenia passed before penicillin turned up, suggests to me that He isn't that fussed.
Or maybe we need to re-think what we mean by "revealed" truth? Fleming noticed dead germs in his petri dish and drew conclusions; maybe the Lord just noticed stuff and drew conclusions, too?
I may be sounding here like an atheist troll. I am really not. But I can understand why non-believers roll their eyes at some of the answers we give about this stuff.
--------------------
NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
Salvation history isn't "important stuff"?
I think your priorities are a tad misplaced.
Or as Zach82 said
quote:
Possibly God has a better idea of humanity's real problem than humanity.
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
If people were doing right by loving God and loving their neighbors, there would be no wars and little personal turmoil. Most human efforts could be directed toward solving our physical problems. God is not making us choose to screw around with vendettas or selfishly horde our substance. We have done all that ourselves, and we took millenia to discover things that were decidedly learnable if we weren't messing around.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If people were doing right by loving God and loving their neighbors, there would be no wars and little personal turmoil. Most human efforts could be directed toward solving our physical problems. God is not making us choose to screw around with vendettas or selfishly horde our substance. We have done all that ourselves, and we took millenia to discover things that were decidedly learnable if we weren't messing around.
This is an excellent way to put it. I have to remember this the next time this chestnut is brought up to me IRL.
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
I can see that the answer viz the Bible may be category error. Its never struck me before this string that the Bible reveals next-to-nothing that is useful materially. Writing that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, but it is true, isn't it? Nothing about how to light a fire or put a roof over your head, nothing about how to cure illness or stay alive. It may comfort you as your daughter lies dying, but it won't tell you how to cure her, however easily you could do it if only you knew. That's just not what it does.
Think of it more like a sociological work, not about material well-being but rather social control. It comes in either patriarchal clan variety (Old Testament) or Amway-style pyramid recruitment scheme (New Testament).
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
If people were doing right by loving God and loving their neighbors, there would be no wars and little personal turmoil. Most human efforts could be directed toward solving our physical problems. God is not making us choose to screw around with vendettas or selfishly horde our substance. We have done all that ourselves, and we took millenia to discover things that were decidedly learnable if we weren't messing around.
Doesn't this position require ignoring large sections of the Old Testament where God is, in fact "making us choose to screw around with vendettas or selfishly horde our substance"? Last time I checked the Old Testament was generally considered to be part of the Bible.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
One thing that is different between scientific knowledge and spiritual knowledge is the degree to which it is cumulative and public. I don't want to overstate that difference -- ISTM that there is a cultural aspect to spiritual growth (I imagine that our revulsion to slavery may represent a cultural spiritual development, for example). Nonetheless, there is a notiecable difference between scientific and spiritual progress.
First, it is not required that the mass of people participate in scientific progress for it to take place -- it can be the province of a few who provide it for the rest of us. Second, scientific progress is easier to build upon -- the effort needed to get "up to speed" on the last generation's scientific accomplishments requires substantially less effort than it took that generation to actually accomplish the gains. And third, it isn't necessary to carry within you the scientific knowledge needed to do whatever it is that you wish to do -- you can look up how to make gunpowder at the time you want to make it, rather than spending your life becoming prepared to make gunpowder.
To my mind, all those things are substantially different from spiritual growth. Perhaps within those differences is part of an answer to the OP.
--Tom Clune
[ 09. July 2012, 20:17: Message edited by: tclune ]
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Croesus, that's true. There you have a classic example of where the Bible contradicts itself. Well spotted.
But.
Me: quote:
God is not making us choose to screw around with vendettas or selfishly horde our substance.
I haven't noticed God telling us to do any of this stuff since the First Century. Plenty of time to do some useful things rather than selfish or hare-brained ones.
[ 09. July 2012, 20:15: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
quote:
There you have a classic example of where the Bible contradicts itself.
Only if you read it with western, modernist lenses on. BTW, both atheists and fundamentalists do this. It leads them to different errors but it comes from the same root.
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Okay looking at it through a non-western, non-modernist lens, how were the wars of the OT, fought offensively by the Hebrews, and seemingly ordered by God, "loving" to the victims of the wars?
And if you say that God didn't order them in the first place, that would sound pretty "modernist" to me.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
Personally, I see the Bible as a collection of human writings intended to preserve what people experienced as divine encounter. Over time, people either continued to use and find value in these texts, and so canonized them, or didn't, and we find the texts popping up as apocryphal texts or "the lost books of the Bible," but these are really the writings people in the tradition simply didn't find helpful to their spiritual life.
This isn't to say I don't believe in revelation; I just have a more naturalistic view of it. The Holy Spirit is active in the whole process, but works through human agents and human agency. The experience of divine encounter can only be expressed by humans in ways that are intelligible to them at the time. We are constantly honing our language about God, but we're still only rendering utter mystery intelligible - finding ways to talk about something that ultimately cannot be put into words.
Humans in the Judeo-Christian tradition don't seem to have connected their spirituality with, say, medicine or science as much as they did with national identity, community, and politics. They recorded their experiences with God where they were able to recognize and articulate them, and those writings helped later generations to see God in their own circumstances and to express their experiences of God. I see it as sorta like grammar. If you're an English speaker, it will affect how you can see, interpret, and express the world around you. The language evolves over time, gaining new ways to express new insights, but it also to some degree limits the way its speakers interact with and interpret the world.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and the primary revelation of God. That's why we (in the more catholic traditions, at least) read the rest of the Scriptures through the lens of the Gospel. But God's revelation to us can always only be in our language(s) - if God reveals something we can't grasp at all, it's not really revelation. God became human as a man in 1st century Palestine, in the tradition of the Israelite/Jewish faith, and humans around him interpreted him through Jewish categories, and then Greek, and we continue this process wherever Christianity takes hold in the world - interpreting the Christ-event in ever-expanding human cultures, languages, and thought systems.
Following the maxim, "All truth is God's truth, wherever it be found," we might consider all scientific discovery to be divine revelation in a way, but the mechanism of divine revelation (IMO) has never consisted in God clearly stating something humans had no way of understanding. IMO, based in part on my own semi-mystical experiences and those of people I know, I think that when the prophets say, "Thus saith the Lord," they didn't hear a voice dictating what they quote as God's speech, but the mysterious process that gave them their prophetic insights cannot be expressed except through the metaphor of God speaking to them, as if in an audible voice. Many people over history have reported getting specific locutions fully-formed in their minds, but ISTM that these are usually found within contexts that have been concerning the person, not something random like "cowpox can inoculate humans against smallpox." Perhaps scientific and medical discoveries have resulted from experiences like that, but people would usually interpret them as getting an idea which they would then test in a lab. It's not in our grammar, so to speak, to interpret ideas like that as divine revelation, and it doesn't seem to have been such to the ancient Israelite mind either. They had their medicine, whatever it was - we know because medicine does get mentioned in the Bible (and in the deuterocanonical wisdom literature, we're instructed that doctors are to be honored and trusted because they, too, pray to God). Maybe because of the highly developed concept of God as personal, attributing medical procedures to divine revelation might have too much resembled magical practices of neighboring pagan religions.
Sorry this was so long... I'm kinda thinking out loud here. And as my sig line says,...
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
|
Posted
These are just a few random thoughts. I may try to return and post more completely in the morning.
The Bible isn't a book on how to live practically because those things were not written down in that culture at that time. It was mostly a pre-literate culture and most people learned the day to day skills from family and kin and would have seen little point in writing it down. The things they did write down were things that they couldn't 'learn' in a practical sense and most of it was actually a codified written version of what had been passed down as oral accounts for centuries.
I think our obsession with words and language and writing has prevented us understanding that aspect of the 'gaps' in Biblical writing. Widespread literacy is an incredibly recent phenomenon even in industrialised countries.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Okay looking at it through a non-western, non-modernist lens, how were the wars of the OT, fought offensively by the Hebrews, and seemingly ordered by God, "loving" to the victims of the wars?
And if you say that God didn't order them in the first place, that would sound pretty "modernist" to me.
If you want to discuss this we should start a new thread. It involves a very long response which would IMHO unfairly hijack the thread far away from its topic.
--------------------
In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Okay.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Let's take the OP to its logical conclusion...
Why doesn't the Bible contain a blueprint for colonizing Earth-like planets?
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Throwing this into the mix...
It appears from various bits of the OT that God DID in fact directly inspire shitloads of useful knowledge--agriculture, music, art, pastoralism, and so forth. (see the refs to various "fathers of" these activities in Genesis, also people like Bezalel and Oholiab later)
The difference is, he didn't enshrine it in writing, he gave it to individuals who presumably passed it along through apprenticeships and other less formal modes of teaching. Which come to think of it is probably a far more useful way of passing along practical this-life type information than writing it down in a world without mass literacy and mass media.
I would be willing to bet that this kind of inspiration is more common than the Bible written stuff by 1000s to 1, and that it is what stands behind the old Greek idea of the Muse. How many people ever laid eyes on the Scripture before the printing press? In any language.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
How many people ever laid eyes on the Scripture before the printing press? In any language.
This.
We have to remember that this is a time and place where 98+% of the population was illiterate, so very few would get value out of any written manuscript at all.
Also, given that they were a mostly pastoral and often nomadic society, carrying around documents which had this kind of limited value; took painstaking hours to copy (but the small elite literate class) but could easily be ruined from the weather, fire, being crapped on by animals or whatever, and which added bulk and weight to the packload just didn't make sense.
This was a society where most information was orally transmitted. It's one thing to have a priestly class keep sacred documents that documented a people's spiritual and political pedigree to use in communal worship, but quite another for them to keep "how to" manuals that document day to day stuff you'd learn from your elders anyway.
[ 09. July 2012, 23:46: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I would say that the point of the Bible is eternal life, not how to deal with physical-world issues like disease.
Actually much of the law of Moses deals with real world issues like disease - lots about cleaning mildew off tents and so forth, not to mention cleanliness of food. I suspect that there is much more of this stuff than there is about 'eternal life'.
That stuff was about ritual purity.
Zach, all you're basically saying here is that if God tells you to stay clean instead of a doctor telling you to stay clean, the instruction develops Special Holy Status.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Then according to the parable of the good Samaritan, pouring wine and oil in open wounds continues to be praiseworthy, though we know full well that such habits will only spread infection and kill people.
...sorry, why on earth would either wine or oil spread infection? What pathogens live in them?
I'm pretty damn sure wine is not a disease carrier. The whole blooming point is that the alcohol stops being produced when the bugs are killed off.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Zach, all you're basically saying here is that if God tells you to stay clean instead of a doctor telling you to stay clean, the instruction develops Special Holy Status.
I'll say that is obviously so, knowing that you obviously have not really gotten the point.
quote:
...sorry, why on earth would either wine or oil spread infection? What pathogens live in them?
I'm pretty damn sure wine is not a disease carrier. The whole blooming point is that the alcohol stops being produced when the bugs are killed off.
Please don't pour oil and wine on my wounds if I'm ever injured in your presence.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darkwing
Shipmate
# 16207
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Let's take the OP to its logical conclusion...
Why doesn't the Bible contain a blueprint for colonizing Earth-like planets?
It's a Satanic conspiracy to keep everyone on Earth, where the demons can tempt you into sinning.
--------------------
"Science was my most favorite subject, especially the Old Testament!"
- Kenneth, 30 Rock
Posts: 161 | From: NW Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Let's take the OP to its logical conclusion...
Why doesn't the Bible contain a blueprint for colonizing Earth-like planets?
Because that had to wait for the Book of Mormon?
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Staying away from any special holy status--in that day and age wine (the more potent the better) was the only reasonable antiseptic around -- and continued to be used that way at least into the 1700s. Oil, too, is useful for stopping bleeding when poured on, and i gather surgical grades of oil are still sometimes used for this purpose.
So as far as i'm concerned, if you find me injured and bleeding with no more conventional help available, feel free to pour on the wine and oil. Just be prepared for the screams when alcohol meets raw flesh. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
