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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Strike while the iron's hot
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Isn't part of the reason for striking to do with gaining public opinion? Disruption to the Olympics (irrespective of what one thinks about the Games) and inconvenience to overseas visitors - it's a shot in the foot if the strike goes ahead.
Exactly!
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Whatever the union says, right or wrong, fact or fantasy, makes no difference whatsoever, ISTM.
The public reaction will be negative due to the timing. Isn't part of the reason for striking to do with gaining public opinion? Disruption to the Olympics (irrespective of what one thinks about the Games) and inconvenience to overseas visitors - it's a shot in the foot if the strike goes ahead.
Actually, I doubt that many union members will strike - it will be interesting to see!
Negative reaction has little to do with timing and a lot to do with huge bias in the press against any strike, at any time. There is pretty much no situation in which 3/4 of the press will consider any strike to be justified. It's been this way for 30 years.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
So it's just coincidence that it's timed to take place during the Olympics is it?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
So it's just coincidence that it's timed to take place during the Olympics is it?
Heck no. It's to put pressure on the employers, even if it only gets their attention. Very often an employer will take the 'head in the sands' option and wait for the little local difficulty to go away. By timing it as they have done, it can't be ignored.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
May somebody who has no Trade Union to represent them; whose "paymasters" ae all voluntary members of a community with increasingly limited resources; whose final pension scheme was calculated on the basis of a final £17000 per annum scale, ( after 40 years service) say something?
That something is based on a NT word to the effect that we should "not only look after our own interests but the interests of others" ( Philippians 2)
I do not doubt for one minute that the striking unions have a point.
But they are striking against a previous regime which, by its bloated spending spree, landed us all with a monumental debt.
The Coalition Govt long since lost any sympathy I might have had for them. The Gordon Brown regime never had my sympathy at all.
My attitude is simply " a plague on all your houses".
And that includes Mark Sewortka and his minority fanatics who look not to the interests of others but to their own.
Lord have mercy.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, I'm an anglophile, but the British seem to really suck at the Olympics. This might be the worst one ever.
Shall we discuss Atlanta now or afterwards? Montreal was a disaster for the people of Montreal.
Oh, those were bad, too, but I predict when all is said and done London will be the worst.
Actually, you shouldn't be too offended by that. After all, the two best organized, regimented, and well-run Olympics were Berlin 1936 and Beijing 2008. To really do it "right" it takes the combination of a brutal police state and a populace intoxicated with a nasty case of nationalism.
[ 20. July 2012, 19:30: Message edited by: Unreformed ]
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
former ASLEF General Secretary Keith Norman (until 5th December 2011) received in 11 months:
Salary of £121,569 + employers pension contributions, £28,974 and accommodation, £17,023
And then there's all those millions they pay themselves in bonuses. Bankers, CEO s and the like fuck with your life by destroying not only your job, but the entire industry you worked in, leaving your town to be a boarded-up benefits sink. Public sector strikes might cause you a couple of hours inconvenience when you are travelling somewhere.
Which do you blame?
Right. Because you don't see that you and they are being done over by the same people. As we used to say in the '30s, a bayonet is a weapon with a worker at either end.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
I'll lay my cards on the table and admit to my own probable bias - I suspect I lost sympathy for most strikes when I was in the armed forces on £13,000 PA and had to cover the work of civil servants earning three times that.
Also, when I complain about the counter-productivity of teacher strikes, that is from the perspective of my current career - teaching.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'll lay my cards on the table and admit to my own probable bias - I suspect I lost sympathy for most strikes when I was in the armed forces on £13,000 PA and had to cover the work of civil servants earning three times that.
That's odd. I'd have lost sympathy for low wages.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Eh?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Eh?
Oh come on. It's not that hard to parse.
You (low-wage cannon fodder) get to do higher wage civil service job on a temporary basis, while still being paid the low wage.
It can make you think one of two things: either, (a) why are these wingeing layabouts complaining about their terms and conditions when I'm earning a third of what they do, and get shot at into the bargain. Or (b) hang on a minute, £17 grand for lying in water/sand filled foxholes while the Septics mistake us for ragheads? That doesn't sound right...
As expected, you've chosen the 'race to the bottom', beloved of our rich paymasters. They work harder when we pay them more, but apparently we work harder when they pay us less.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Oh I was annoyed about both - I was paid less because I was younger. I was an officer but since I joined at 18 rather than 21 I was paid £7000 less.
I was actually the boss of the civil servants in question, whose jobs my department had to cover. Some of us just get on with it and do what's needed...
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
And no, I'm afraid it wasn't clear. Also, what do you mean by 'race to the bottom'?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Whatever the union says, right or wrong, fact or fantasy, makes no difference whatsoever, ISTM.
The public reaction will be negative due to the timing. Isn't part of the reason for striking to do with gaining public opinion? Disruption to the Olympics (irrespective of what one thinks about the Games) and inconvenience to overseas visitors - it's a shot in the foot if the strike goes ahead.
Actually, I doubt that many union members will strike - it will be interesting to see!
Negative reaction has little to do with timing and a lot to do with huge bias in the press against any strike, at any time. There is pretty much no situation in which 3/4 of the press will consider any strike to be justified. It's been this way for 30 years.
I doubt the press reaction has much to do with this strike.
I gained a lot of sympathy for the Border people a few weeks ago when it became obvious that they were too few in number etc. I lost it all and got very anti when they threatened to strike at such a time as now. They would get a lot more sympathy if they did it at a quieter time, I believe.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
But what would be the point of doing it at a quieter time? Surely part of the idea at least is to show that you are needed and that therefore, you should be paid more (or whatever)?
Do it to cause the most disruption possible - surely that's just sense?
(Cards on table? Or disclaimer? - I've never been on strike and think it unlikely I ever will)
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I think we have seen that no time is so quiet as not to cause major disruption.
Again, it is innocent people who will suffer.
Would it be possible to strike only at departure points? Still innocent people but it would make the point, I suppose.
I suspect that this strike will not go ahead - maybe the government or Boris or the bosses or whoever will get an injunction? That would get public support and harm the union's cause. Maybe union folk will simply refuse to strike? That would get public support for the union.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'll lay my cards on the table and admit to my own probable bias - I suspect I lost sympathy for most strikes when I was in the armed forces on £13,000 PA and had to cover the work of civil servants earning three times that.
That's odd. I'd have lost sympathy for low wages.
Train drivers are not paid low wages.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
And no, I'm afraid it wasn't clear. Also, what do you mean by 'race to the bottom'?
As in everything, those in charge try and play the wages (as well as pensions, length of working week, conditions of employment) of one low-paid sector off against another low-paid sector. They never suggest that the lowest paid should be paid more. They always suggest the next lowest paid should be paid at the same rate as the lowest paid.
While at the top, the reverse happens. Executive X gets paid a handsome salary and pension, but executive Y gets more. There's never an argument that Y is paid too much. Executive X must be paid in line with Y.
That's how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Of course servicemen and women should be paid more, but that's a poor reason for anyone else to be paid less.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'll lay my cards on the table and admit to my own probable bias - I suspect I lost sympathy for most strikes when I was in the armed forces on £13,000 PA and had to cover the work of civil servants earning three times that.
That's odd. I'd have lost sympathy for low wages.
Train drivers are not paid low wages.
And me and Boat Boy weren't talking about train drivers. Do keep up.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
What do you mean by 'race to the bottom'?
I would expect any former officer to know, or be able to find out.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Yes, it's just the thing that every military officer should know...
I still don't think it's relevant - they weren't playing the military off against the Civil Service as we had no redress (striking by the military has a different name of course - mutiny) and so got on with the job.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I would expect any former officer to know, or be able to find out.
What is asking for an explanation, if not finding out?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I still don't think it's relevant - they weren't playing the military off against the Civil Service as we had no redress (striking by the military has a different name of course - mutiny) and so got on with the job.
Pfft. That's almost endearing in its naivety.
(obligatory "wake up, sheeple!")
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I would expect any former officer to know, or be able to find out.
What is asking for an explanation, if not finding out?
You could find out for yourself. Weren't you taught that at Dartmouth, Sandhurst or Cranwell?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'll lay my cards on the table and admit to my own probable bias - I suspect I lost sympathy for most strikes when I was in the armed forces on £13,000 PA and had to cover the work of civil servants earning three times that.
That's odd. I'd have lost sympathy for low wages.
Train drivers are not paid low wages.
And me and Boat Boy weren't talking about train drivers. Do keep up.
Sorry, the train was late ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I would expect any former officer to know, or be able to find out.
What is asking for an explanation, if not finding out?
You could find out for yourself. Weren't you taught that at Dartmouth, Sandhurst or Cranwell?
I was. If there's something I don't understand, I ask for an explanation. What exactly is the problem?
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I would expect any former officer to know, or be able to find out.
What is asking for an explanation, if not finding out?
You could find out for yourself. Weren't you taught that at Dartmouth, Sandhurst or Cranwell?
I was. If there's something I don't understand, I ask for an explanation. What exactly is the problem?
I could be cruel and cutting and tell you that your PO/sergeant isn't there any more, but that would be unfair, so I'll explain that this 'race to the bottom' is not unsavoury nautical slang, but the term given to downwards pressure on wages and other terms of employment contracts. At the moment this is being done, broadly, by the government and employers saying that others are making sacrifices, so you also have to. This gathers momentum and unless and until someone makes a successful stand it will carry on until the vast majority of us are poorer beyond what is necessary. That is certainly in the narrow interests of employers but across the economy it will depress demand and keep us in the doldrums for decades.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Ah I see, thank you. However, this was before the recession.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
which means what? *We're all in in together*? (Unless we are bankers, members of the government, their relations and families)?
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
The strike is off! Both sides claim it as a victory, but I expect the truth is somewhere in between.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'll lay my cards on the table and admit to my own probable bias - I suspect I lost sympathy for most strikes when I was in the armed forces on £13,000 PA and had to cover the work of civil servants earning three times that.
That's odd. I'd have lost sympathy for low wages.
Train drivers are not paid low wages.
Good. It would be even better if they were paid high wages.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I am a member of the NASUWT, the largest teaching union in the UK. Yet, in all they trouble I have had over the years (unfairly dismissed from three different jobs), they have never been any solid help at all. Why is there still this bogey man of all powerful unions, when it seems that employers can do whatever they like to their employees?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's why I belong to ATL!
BTW NASUWT is the 2nd biggest with NUT the biggest. The justification for NASUWT's dubious claim is that they count all retired members.
Hear hear, I'm ATL too!
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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