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Source: (consider it) Thread: Life in prison at hard labour for Denver shooter
Gamaliel
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Sir Kevin - yes, I understand the reasons for the Second Amendnment and they made sense in that context.

I may have been introducing a wind-up element here - I have sparred with US posters over the gun issue in the past. But I'm really not trolling and I do think it is a factor. Not that I have a solution - that's for the US to sort out.

For the record, I do see some logic in the US position and wouldn't condemn legitimate and law-abiding, non-nutcase gun owners - but there is something of an obsession with guns in the US it seems to me and that can't be at all healthy.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed
Punishment shouldn't be about revenge or making the life of the accused "miserable", but about protecting others against a dangerously violent person by removing him from society. Prison should certainly be austere, but not psychologically unbearable or needlessly cruel.

I'm relieved that you qualifed the first sentence with the second. Of course, prison should not be needlessly cruel, but it should be a deterrent to those outside.

Prisoners should certainly be made to do some kind of work for their board and lodging - like the rest of us. No prisoner should ever have rights exceeding those on the outside. And, of course, if able bodied prisoners refuse to work, then I will happily quote 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "If anyone does not want to work, then neither shall he eat."

Prison cannot just be about quarantining criminals from society. It is also about sending a message to society, that society is expressing anger (call that a kind of "revenge") towards those who commit serious crimes. If it is merely about protection, then a prisoner only needs to "convince" the parole board that he is no longer a danger and out he comes. And who is surprised when he reoffends?

He who despises the concept of "punishment for punishment's sake" is no friend of the innocent and of victims (potential or actual).

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Gamaliel
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For the record too, whatever the ins and outs and the complexities of it all, I'm not sure I'd be advocating a 'ban' on gun ownership in the US. Pandora's box is already open and it would be impossible to put the lid back on.

From what I can gather, the legislation etc varies from State to State and there are big cultural and urban/rural/suburban differences - so it's not as if there's a single catch-all solution either.

I do think that there needs to be some kind of sea-change in attitudes though, a bit like people's attitudes towards other socio-political issues but that sort of thing takes time.

I don't see much of a shift in attitudes over this one in the US anytime soon.

Of course, our stricter gun controls over here in the UK haven't eliminated gun-related homicide nor knife-crime either, of course, although our murder rate is eight-times lower than the US according to some material I've read recently.

I don't believe that we are any more law-abiding or have less psychos per captita than the US, so I would suggest that there are different socio-cultural and political factors at play over here and on mainland Europe that account for the disparity. I think I read somewhere that there are around 85 fatal shooting incidents a day in the USA. In the UK, albeit with a lower population there are probably no more than around 20 fatal shooting incidents a year - out of a population of nearly 60 million.

For some reason many US Shippie or Facebook friends don't like me pointing out that statistic and start totting their shootin'-irons saying that if they didn't have them the nasty Federal gummint would walk all over them ... and then they'll retaliate by suggesting that we Brits live in some kind of totalitarian police state where the gummint has removed our natural rights to bear arms... puh-leeese ...

[Roll Eyes]

Anyhow - the figures speak for themselves. A murder rate eight times that of Western Europe must tells us something. Go figure, as you Americans might say.

For all that, though, I'm with Graven Image:

'Eternal God, in whose perfect kingdom no sword is drawn but the sword of righteousness, no strength known but the strength of love, look down upon all those who mourn in Colorado , and embrace them in your tender care.'

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Prison cannot just be about quarantining criminals from society.

<bee in own bonnet>

That's the last thing for which prison should be considered.

Traditionally quarantine is to prevent the spread of infectios disease. It is often done when a person, animal or a ship may pose a risk but it is not necessary that the person, animal or ship is definitely a host.

If we use quarantine to protect society are we well on the way to imprisoning people on the basis of what they may do, rather than what they have done? Look how well that worked in Northern Ireland in the 1970's.

</bee in own bonnet>

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Ohfergoshsakes. SAMUEL had rotten kids too, but wasn't blamed for them. You'd need pretty clear proof before daring to blame parents.

I take it I'm not the only who's been using the Old Testament readings at Morning Prayer, then?
I'm a Lutheran. I picked the story up the hard way--by reading the book. Unless you're not actually trying to be sarky, in which case I apologize.
Not trying to be sarky at all, it's just Samuel's kids were in my mind because the lectionary readings for Morning Prayer have been cycling through 1 Samuel recently, and the passages about Samuel's sons being less than perfect has come up just a couple of days ago. My recollection of the Old Testament isn't usually good enough to remember that sort of thing off the top of my head unless I've read it recently!
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Grammatica
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

For some reason many US Shippie or Facebook friends don't like me pointing out that statistic and start totting their shootin'-irons saying that if they didn't have them the nasty Federal gummint would walk all over them ... and then they'll retaliate by suggesting that we Brits live in some kind of totalitarian police state where the gummint has removed our natural rights to bear arms... puh-leeese ...

[Roll Eyes]

Anyhow - the figures speak for themselves. A murder rate eight times that of Western Europe must tells us something. Go figure, as you Americans might say.

This exchange between the American political commentators E.J. Dionne and David Brooks might interest you, Gamaliel.
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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Prisoners should certainly be made to do some kind of work for their board and lodging - like the rest of us. No prisoner should ever have rights exceeding those on the outside. And, of course, if able bodied prisoners refuse to work, then I will happily quote 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "If anyone does not want to work, then neither shall he eat."

If prisoners have more rights than those outside then that may very well suggest not that prisoners have too many rights but that those outside have too few rights.

Prisoners certainly should not be allowed to do work for less pay than those outside, otherwise the prisoners will undercut the jobs of those outside and be employed preferentially. Prisoners should not be allowed to deprive law-abiding citizens of proper jobs.

quote:
If it is merely about protection, then a prisoner only needs to "convince" the parole board that he is no longer a danger and out he comes. And who is surprised when he reoffends?
Presumably if the prisoner convinced the parole board that he or she is no longer a danger then the parole board are surprised.
Studies show that there are differences in rates of reoffence between prisons. Reoffence correlates positively with the punitive nature of the prison. Prisons organised around the goal of rehabilitation rather than retribution are, surprisingly enough, better at rehabilitation. Prisons organised around the goal of retribution are often worse than useless at rehabilitation.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Prisoners should certainly be made to do some kind of work for their board and lodging - like the rest of us. No prisoner should ever have rights exceeding those on the outside. And, of course, if able bodied prisoners refuse to work, then I will happily quote 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "If anyone does not want to work, then neither shall he eat."

If prisoners have more rights than those outside then that may very well suggest not that prisoners have too many rights but that those outside have too few rights.


I don't think the issue is, or should be, that prisoners have more or fewer rights than those outside, but the rights they should have. Some of the rights prisoners need are specific to them, as a consequence of their imprisonment and that needs to be recognised.

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The5thMary
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The only problem with citizens being armed is situations like the movie theater massacre. How in hell are ordinary citizens going to take out a crazed shooter with smoke grenades going off and the general confusion of stampeding bodies? You'd be more likely to shoot an innocent person instead of the lunatic who started it. But I have no problem with SANE gun owners who have permits to carry weapons. Hell, if I could do it I probably would. I'm sane... in case anyone is wondering!

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Pearl B4 Swine
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

If we use quarantine to protect society are we well on the way to imprisoning people on the basis of what they may do, rather than what they have done? Look how well that worked in Northern Ireland in the 1970's.


Yeah-- look how well it has worked in Guantanamo.

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The5thMary
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The problem with prisons in the United States is that prisoners have it way too easy. I remember a few years back some guys in a Georgia prison were telling their lawyers that they (the prisoners) were having to endure life inside without televisions in each cell! Oh, the horror! AND, they had to eat cold sandwiches for lunch instead of having hot meals! How terrible for them!!! What a travesty of justice!

IMHO, I think the televisions should be yanked out of every room and the incarcerated should be made to work for their meals and board. Why in hell should taxpayers foot the bill for these people? Hard labor is a great idea. I'm all for re-instating the chain gang or something similar. We coddle them much too much.

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Josephine

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quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
IMHO, I think the televisions should be yanked out of every room and the incarcerated should be made to work for their meals and board. Why in hell should taxpayers foot the bill for these people? Hard labor is a great idea. I'm all for re-instating the chain gang or something similar. We coddle them much too much.

Did you know that when television is freely available, fewer guards are needed? So the prisons are cheaper to operate?

Not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. But if you're worried about the bill the taxpayers are being stuck with, it's something to consider.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Olde Sea Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Aside from the irrationality of his actions, this photo gives me the impression that he was mentally unstable.

Moo

That picture shows him with a facial expression almost exactly like that of Jared Loughner. I don't think it shows mental illness, I think it shows a conscious attempt to look as crazy as Loughner (who undoubtedly is an authentic paranoid schizophrenic). I think he posed that way with the thought that some day he might be using an insanity defense.

It's generally believed that life in a psychiatric institute is easier than life in a prison.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Did you know that when television is freely available, fewer guards are needed? So the prisons are cheaper to operate?

Not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. But if you're worried about the bill the taxpayers are being stuck with, it's something to consider.

I sometimes wonder why we don't just unlock the doors, let all the prisoners out and have done with it . Save a whole heap of money that way.

Take this Denver killer, why not just give him the keys to his flat and send him home.

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The5thMary
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When I look at the picture of the Denver shooter, I don't see him as mentally unbalanced so much as I see him posing gleefully for the camera in a "Ha! Now I'm going to be famous and people are going to talk about me!" sort of way. Well, I guess that IS mentally unbalanced... if the only way you can be somebody in this world is to be famous... famous for killing people... Jesus, what a sad fucking world...

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Gamaliel
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Thanks for the link, Grammatica. Yes, I did find it interesting, particularly the comment that Republicans are so totally allied with the gun lobby and that the Democrats are intimidated by them ... not a good position for either, I wouldn't have thought.

It's a very difficult issue for us to understand over here, as you'll appreciate, as guns aren't part and parcel of everyday life - and I know that's the case in some parts of the US too. I do wonder what the heck it's all about with the automatic weapon issue - who actually needs an automatic assault rifle? [Confused]

We clamped down on those big time after the Hungerford massacre in the late '80s and then on hand-guns after Dunblane. Ok, so the latest mass shooting, up in Cumbria a year or so ago now, didn't lead to bans on shot-guns - which is what that guy used to kill his victim.

You're never going to legislate against the nutters with the body-armour and smoke grenades - but there is certainly a debate to be had.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I sometimes wonder why we don't just unlock the doors, let all the prisoners out and have done with it . Save a whole heap of money that way.

Take this Denver killer, why not just give him the keys to his flat and send him home.

It is not about money to those whose family members were shot, and it is not about money to those he might shoot if released. Where do people get completely morally bankrupt ideas that money is all there is and that money is all that matters? It is either complete moral bankruptcy, or complete absence of life experience or complete insensitivity or you will tell us. [Mad]
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The5thMary
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Gamaliel: I also have a very difficult time understanding why some Americans absolutely must own assault rifles. Add hand grenades. Try to ask that of someone who is an N.R.A. boob and you'll get the same old answer: "I need my twenty-five assault rifles for hunting! Yeah, hunting... deer, turkey, bears, and the secret U.N. forces in the black helicopters..."

I am not opposed to Americans owning guns for personal protection and/or hunting but assault rifles are a bit over the top. And who hunts animals with grenades? That's just nuts.

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HCH
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The idea of blaming the parents for the actions of the child rather obviously needs some caveats. At what age do you stop blaming parents? If a six-year-old does something bad, it may be reasonable to blame the parents, but does it seem as reasonable when the child is sixty? Or even thirty?
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rolyn
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I'd better just say No-prophet that my post was make with total cynical black humour * . (A bit early for humour in this case accepted ).

FWIW I'm in favour of a harsh ,(not brutal), prison regime , and would prefer it if all murderers faced the death penalty.
Keep them alive long enough to find out what makes them tick , so as to try and prevent future tragedies ? Yes.

* This character had booby-trapped his own flat , sending him home would save everyone a load of bother.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Unreformed
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Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

[ 21. July 2012, 19:27: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by 205:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
(Waits while our US friends gang up to defend the Second Amendment come what may ...)

Just this morning my daughter and I concluded about the only hope at this point is for the Government to STRONGLY encourage all the existing sane handgun owners to get their Concealed Carry Permits, practice much with their pistol and then never leave home without them.

A couple of these maniacal homicidal perps being dropped in their tracks before they can squeeze the trigger a second time might have a deterrent effect on future massacres.

Ah yes, I can see the scenario now.

Man with gun(s) walks into crowded cinema, gets his gun out and suddenly 36 men carrying their handguns tell their dates/wives/children to lie down and then, all in unison, shoot the would-be gunman to pieces.

What is this, the wild west?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

That's a three year-old story, as any three year-old could tell you. Here is an update, which I found from a link on the page you supplied.

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

That's a three year-old story, as any three year-old could tell you. Here is an update, which I found from a link on the page you supplied.
That's nice, but there's nothing in that article comparing rates of violent crime in Britain to other countries, which is what I'm talking about.

And I can say the same thing about the US.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Jahlove
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diagnosis by photo is ridiculous - guy would probably look the same if he'd just won the state lotto

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
diagnosis by photo is ridiculous - guy would probably look the same if he'd just won the state lotto

and as Think points out on the other thread, his hair has a decided lack of a ginger hue.

(actually seeing the papers after seeing the start of this thread-and a suggestion it was a ID photo I didn't see the sinister look, it looks just like all our staff photo's at work)

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

There's a reason the torygraph chose to highlight a comparison with Europe rather than the US - because they can't scare people with a comparison with the US because the US is so much worse. There are only around twice as many people murdered in the whole of the UK as there are in the city of Baltimore alone.
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Unreformed
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Personally I think the stuff about the red hair and calling himself "The Joker" will turn out to be about as reliable as "rapes in the Superdome" and "people shooting at helicopters" were in the aftermath of Katrina. That is, not very.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

There's a reason the torygraph chose to highlight a comparison with Europe rather than the US - because they can't scare people with a comparison with the US because the US is so much worse. There are only around twice as many people murdered in the whole of the UK as there are in the city of Baltimore alone.
Uh, reading comprehension, much? The subtitle of the article says "worse than even America". And this is overall violent crime--not the homicide rate, which is indeed about two and a half times the very low rate of homicide in the UK. That's "homicide", mind you--not "gun deaths", or "gun killings". Homicide. I guess you may think that its more moral to kill a person with a knife or pushing them out of a window than with a bullet, why, I have no idea.

[ 21. July 2012, 20:10: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

There's a reason the torygraph chose to highlight a comparison with Europe rather than the US - because they can't scare people with a comparison with the US because the US is so much worse. There are only around twice as many people murdered in the whole of the UK as there are in the city of Baltimore alone.
Uh, reading comprehension, much? The subtitle of the article says "worse than even America". And this is overall violent crime--not the homicide rate, which is indeed about two and a half times the very low rate of homicide in the UK. That's "homicide", mind you--not "gun deaths", or "gun killings". Homicide. I guess you may think that its more moral to kill a person with a knife or pushing them out of a window than with a bullet, why, I have no idea.
Note that there are no numbers to support that assertion in the article, and what numbers there are are junk stats assembled by the then opposition conservative party.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Unreformed
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The European Commission was the "then opposition party"? Uhh, ok.

It's amazing how much people will lie to themselves when they're confronted with facts that go against their chosen narratives.

More violent crime in the UK than wild west America? IMPOSSIBLE! LIES! ALL LIES!

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

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Unreformed
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As to "no numbers to support that assertion", there are plenty. And they're from the European Commission for the British and European crime rates, and the FBI for the American one.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation--puppet of David Cameron.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I'd better just say No-prophet that my post was make with total cynical black humour * . (A bit early for humour in this case accepted ).

FWIW I'm in favour of a harsh ,(not brutal), prison regime , and would prefer it if all murderers faced the death penalty.
Keep them alive long enough to find out what makes them tick , so as to try and prevent future tragedies ? Yes.

* This character had booby-trapped his own flat , sending him home would save everyone a load of bother.

Too subtle for me. Sorry.

My preference would actually be a slightly different angle. Persons who have shown danger to others, need to be out of sight, out of mind, and permanently under supervision. Prison doesn't have to be harsh, it needs to express the old fashioned term "penitence" as in penitentary. Simple food, simple life, simple working to maintain the inmate's keep. But supervision and monitoring. Like being bricked up in a monastery of medieval times. And we never ever want to hear about or from you again.

In terms of 'what makes them tick', I believe it is known well what factors predict further outbursts of violence in someone who has already shown violence, but it is frightfully difficult to predict about those who show no prior history.

[ 21. July 2012, 20:34: Message edited by: no_prophet ]

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Look, thanks for the concern, guys, but I think you should focus on fixing Britain's crime problems before giving advice to the US. Stones, glass houses, etc.

And no, I'm not a gun fetishist. I have zero desire to ever own or operate one, and couldn't care less about the Second Amendment, an 18th Century relic.

There's a reason the torygraph chose to highlight a comparison with Europe rather than the US - because they can't scare people with a comparison with the US because the US is so much worse. There are only around twice as many people murdered in the whole of the UK as there are in the city of Baltimore alone.
Uh, reading comprehension, much? The subtitle of the article says "worse than even America". And this is overall violent crime--not the homicide rate, which is indeed about two and a half times the very low rate of homicide in the UK. That's "homicide", mind you--not "gun deaths", or "gun killings". Homicide. I guess you may think that its more moral to kill a person with a knife or pushing them out of a window than with a bullet, why, I have no idea.
Definitions of violent crime vary. While robbery is common the American definitions for rape, homicide and especially assault differ from those in Britain. In the UK 'Violence against the person' is included in violent crime statistics and that includes assault without injury, which includes some pretty minor incidents. In the USA OTOH violent crime specifies aggravated assault, which includes the use, or the threat to use a weapon to cause serious injury.

[ 21. July 2012, 20:39: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
The problem with prisons in the United States is that prisoners have it way too easy.



No, the problem with prisons in the US is that the US criminal injustice system is quite possibly broken beyond fixing.

It's a for-profit system; the US incarcerates something like 25% of all the prisoners in the world (without having 25% of the people in the world); we incarcerate at a rate 5-7 times higher than any other country.

quote:
Why in hell should taxpayers foot the bill for these people? Hard labor is a great idea. I'm all for re-instating the chain gang or something similar. We coddle them much too much.
Because we're the ones who decided that all kinds of non-violent criminals and people who did not commit a 'crime' by any normal definition of the word should be incarcerated.

Which is to say nothing of this particular person. I agree that if he's guilty he needs to be locked away from society for the rest of his life. But it's ridiculous to treat a person locked up for mass murder the same way we treat a person locked up because she told a cop her name was 'Ticia' instead of 'Leticia' (which we currently do).

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Unreformed
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# 17203

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quote:
Definitions of violent crime vary. While robbery is common the American definitions for rape, homicide and especially assault differ from those in Britain. In the UK 'Violence against the person' is included in violent crime statistics and that includes assault without injury, which includes some pretty minor incidents. In the USA OTOH violent crime specifies aggravated assault, which includes the use, or the threat to use a weapon to cause serious injury.
This, if true and if the definitions are drastically different is a reasonable point to consider in international comparisons. It reminds me of how differently "infant mortality" is calculated from country to country, or what constitutes "poverty" (not to mention the conundrum absolute vs. relative poverty).

Really, I loathe commenting on the domestic policies and politics of other western democracies, and hate what amounts to dick-measuring contests between them even more. It's bad manners and often done in gross ignorance in order to bolster preconceived stereotypes, and in the end, it's just the narcissism of petty differences. I hate it when done by the British to the US about guns and crime, and hate it when Americans do it to the UK about the NHS.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
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There is a number, just after the UK and other countries, having 2000 violent incidents.
quote:

By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population.

What 'America' is I'm not sure.

But looking it up (i.e. googling) the UK does appear to have 3% of the population assault victims compared to 1.2% US (similar with rape).

So at least one other site, is consistent with the report (although there are enough uncertainties with homicide statistics, which you'd think would be easy, to be cautious about numbers).
[For example]
if the 9/100,000 US homicide (may only be the 40% involving guns only? in which case 20/100,000) had 'only' been assaulted would give ~1% over lifetime (~0.3%UK) so some of the difference could be because more American victims don't survive.
Alternatively English muggers may target the elderly, which would skew the stats the other way.
Or have old fashioned definitions of assault..or whatever.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:

It's amazing how much people will lie to themselves when they're confronted with facts that go against their chosen narratives.

Indeed it is.

The murder rate for the US is almost 4 times that for the UK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate
Murder has the advantage as an indicator that it is far less likely than other violent crimes to go under reported or uninvestigated - police forces can make assaults disappear from the stats, but not murders. And which countries have the most incentive to fake the stats? The ones where the police chiefs are directly elected or are appointed by local elected officials.

Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Unreformed
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"America" meant the USA, because it's consistent with the yearly FBI numbers.

The bottom line is, from all we can gather and putting aside disputed definitions, the US has a higher homicide rate (from the very low base of the UK rate), and either similar or slightly lower rates of other crimes.

The US homicide rate, while high by developed world standards, hardly makes it Brazil or South Africa.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
irish_lord99
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# 16250

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's a very difficult issue for us to understand over here, as you'll appreciate, as guns aren't part and parcel of everyday life - and I know that's the case in some parts of the US too. I do wonder what the heck it's all about with the automatic weapon issue - who actually needs an automatic assault rifle? [Confused]

No one does, and that's the honest truth. In some rare hunting situations it's nice to have, but certainly not necessary.

The problem for US gun owners is what they perceive to be the slippery slope of banning firearms. If you create a legal precedent by banning assault rifles, then it's only a matter of time before that precedent is somehow used to ban bolt action rifles, then falling block, then muzzle loaders etc.

Mostly that perception is NRA hype, but it's also the fond hope of lobbyists like Handgun Control (who essentially want to ban all firearms). It's a bit of bullshit and truth all mixed together, and it's hard to sort sometimes.

There's absolutely no 'need' for the citizens to carry automatic weapons. There's also no 'need' for an artist to put a cross up-side-down in a vat or human piss and cum. However, the fear of losing a right often wins out over the reality of needing that right.

YMMV

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Unreformed
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# 17203

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:

It's amazing how much people will lie to themselves when they're confronted with facts that go against their chosen narratives.

Indeed it is.

The murder rate for the US is almost 4 times that for the UK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate
Murder has the advantage as an indicator that it is far less likely than other violent crimes to go under reported or uninvestigated - police forces can make assaults disappear from the stats, but not murders. And which countries have the most incentive to fake the stats? The ones where the police chiefs are directly elected or are appointed by local elected officials.

Yes, the US has a higher homicide rate than the UK. Which I've already said. And?

The rest of your post is bullshit conjecture.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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Two hours ago s/he makes a cheap jibe about UK crime rates then half an hours ago states 'Really, I loathe commenting on the domestic policies and politics of other western democracies'.

I give up with some people.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Denver victim just missed Toronto Eaton Centre shooting.

Maybe it'd be better to focus on the survivors and dead?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Two hours ago s/he makes a cheap jibe about UK crime rates then half an hours ago states 'Really, I loathe commenting on the domestic policies and politics of other western democracies'.

Just to prove how stupid it doing it is, Sioni.

I actually don't think the UK is a very violent place. But it sure is easy to make it LOOK that way. I could, if I wanted, make Belgium look like a violent third world basket through a combination of cherry-picking data and wild conjecture.

Here's the thing: the USA and UK are much, much more similar than they are different. I know it's very scary to nationalists on both sides looking for smug moral superiority on the cheap, but it's the truth.

[ 21. July 2012, 21:29: Message edited by: Unreformed ]

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
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# 9826

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Re TV in prison: Yes, it's used as a pacifying agent. Idle minds as well as idle hands are the devil's workshop in prison situations.

Speaking of idle hands -- I've read about programs where hardened, long-haul prisoners are taught to do things like train service dogs or raise produce for the prison and for local food programs, and that their participation benefits all concerned -- . Unfortunately, in the US Joe/Jane Lunchbucket tend to hear about such things and think of them as further librul coddling of people they'd rather have taken out to the back forty and shot, or at least thrown in a medieval dungeon...so it's hard to sell the public on the idea -- even if it meant more service dogs for the disabled or more food for the local food bank.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
When I look at the picture of the Denver shooter, I don't see him as mentally unbalanced so much as I see him posing gleefully for the camera in a "Ha! Now I'm going to be famous and people are going to talk about me!" sort of way. Well, I guess that IS mentally unbalanced... if the only way you can be somebody in this world is to be famous... famous for killing people... Jesus, what a sad fucking world...

How exactly is it that you know the photo was taken after he hatched his plot?

All of this diagnosis by photo strikes me as very much as being done with a massive dose of hindsight.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Unreformed
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
When I look at the picture of the Denver shooter, I don't see him as mentally unbalanced so much as I see him posing gleefully for the camera in a "Ha! Now I'm going to be famous and people are going to talk about me!" sort of way. Well, I guess that IS mentally unbalanced... if the only way you can be somebody in this world is to be famous... famous for killing people... Jesus, what a sad fucking world...

How exactly is it that you know the photo was taken after he hatched his plot?

All of this diagnosis by photo strikes me as very much as being done with a massive dose of hindsight.

It wasn't, from what I understand it's from his college ID card. I think just about everyone looks at least mildly disturbed on their ID card/driver's license.

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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day

Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Olde Sea Dog
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# 13061

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A note on assault rifles for members outside the US - our military assault rifles are fully automatic, but our civilian "assault rifles" are almost always semi-auto. It's extremely difficult for a civilian to own an automatic gun here, and most states forbid them outright.

When you read about massacres with assault rifles in the US, it's always been about semiautomatic rifles.

Concerning the OP, I think the hard labor should be in raising prisoners' own food by older methods, and a few other jobs like making license plates and cleaning up a community, that don't compete with the livelihoods of people on the outside.

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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

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irish_lord99
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@ Olde Sea Dog

What you say is true, but as a gun owner and displaced Alaskan who used to hang out with a lot of gun nuts, I can tell you that it's fairly simple to take an SKS, AK-47, 10/22, AR-15, BAR or just about any other assault rifle and make it full auto. A little file work here, a home-made part there...

I'm personally on the fence when it comes to semi-auto weapons. I'll give some credence to the aforementioned slippery slope argument and I don't personally want to lose all my hunting rifles. However, I also see the horrific crimes committed with automatic weapons and cannot turn a blind eye to the suffering they have caused.

I also suspect that if gun crime continues to escalate then they'll simply repeal the 2nd amendment altogether and I'll be back to trying to hunt ducks with a blowgun. [Roll Eyes]

I'm a big fan of middle ground solutions, and IMO registration and Brady Bill-esk legislation is probably the way to go if we gun owners want to keep any of our 2nd amendment rights at all. It's not a perfect solution from either side of the debate, but it's probably a bit better than the way things are now.

However, I'm afraid neither side wishes to compromise at all.

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
The5thMary
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# 12953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
When I look at the picture of the Denver shooter, I don't see him as mentally unbalanced so much as I see him posing gleefully for the camera in a "Ha! Now I'm going to be famous and people are going to talk about me!" sort of way. Well, I guess that IS mentally unbalanced... if the only way you can be somebody in this world is to be famous... famous for killing people... Jesus, what a sad fucking world...

How exactly is it that you know the photo was taken after he hatched his plot?

All of this diagnosis by photo strikes me as very much as being done with a massive dose of hindsight.

You are correct, sir or madam. I was wrong to assume that his picture was taken after he did his evil deed. I was also wrong to make blanket statements about prisons. What the hell do I know, anyway? I was just reacting with emotion instead of thoughtfulness--shooting from the hip, as it were, with an unregistered gun. Apologies to all and sundry.

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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