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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Life in prison at hard labour for Denver shooter
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To the OP. If life in prison with hard labour, strong medication and therapy would be a cost effective, fully transparent, democratically agreed, humane way rather than euthanasia or some marginally cheaper compromise ($30,000 a year) in between considering that the surviving victims will get far less care and the bereaved, unless some insurances pay up, fine.
There is NO excuse whatsoever for this psychotic creature who can only be redeemed in Judgement getting hold of the guns and ammo.
Prison is no quantifiable deterrent to anything in my experience. It lets some guys grow up after their first youthful murder, yeah, I've seen that a couple of times. Prison is not going to deter habitual criminals, psychopaths nor people having a bad day that doesn't end.
It's our job to love these people - personally - regardless and there is no social action beyond that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
A note on assault rifles for members outside the US - our military assault rifles are fully automatic, but our civilian "assault rifles" are almost always semi-auto. It's extremely difficult for a civilian to own an automatic gun here, and most states forbid them outright.
When you read about massacres with assault rifles in the US, it's always been about semiautomatic rifles.
Thanks for the note, but as a subject of Her Majesty the Queen (Gawd bless 'er) I do not have the right to arm bears... sorry, bear arms... and therefore do not know and furthermore do not care what you are talking about.
I have never handled a gun of any kind, nor been offered the use or the loan of one. Apart from some specialist police units, and the Armed Forces, no-one in this country carries a firearm on the streets unless he or she is a criminal - which is why there is a mandatory five year sentence for doing so.
And that's how it should be. Any country which allows its private citizens routinely and as of right to arm themselves with any kind of firearm (outwith licensed and strictly controlled shooting clubs) is as mad as a bag of frogs. Period, as you Americans would say. They should all be banned, entirely.
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There is NO excuse whatsoever for this psychotic creature who can only be redeemed in Judgement getting hold of the guns and ammo.
The clerk who sold the gun to Holmes sold it to a good looking, well-spoken, graduate student.
That's the trouble with all the flimsy gun laws that the NRA believe will keep us safe. Gun dealers can't tell who is a deer hunter and who is a "psychotic creature" or who is likely to become enraged when their wife leaves them or who has suicidal family members or who has curious six year-old children.
Outlawing automatic weapons should be a no brainer, a minimum starting point toward sane gun laws.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
While I come a little short of banning the NRA as a terrorist organization, I think their motives are basically uncaring and self-centred. US laws on deadly weapons should be just like the UK's. When I see news like this, I am embarrassed to be an American. I live in a community which is basically safe and I go out of my way to be polite to everybody, particularly when driving. You never know what sorts of deadly weapons the other drivers have stowed in their cars. Assault rifles and anything else which is not a shot gun used for hunting should be banned for civilian use. Only well-trained police officers and on-duty military personnel in combat zones should have side arms and heavy-duty ordnance. I am grateful that weapons are not allowed on university campuses and in bars, pubs and restaurants!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Outlawing automatic weapons should be a no brainer, a minimum starting point toward sane gun laws.
No automatic or semiautomatic weapons, and no high-capacity magazines. Nobody needs those for hunting or sport.
The next step, I think, is to allow cities and states to regulate firearms as they choose. The second amendment was intended to ensure that we would always have a militia instead of a standing army. They wanted all the citizens to be able to respond to a call to arms and mutual defense, in the event of a military threat.
Our founding fathers did not like and did not trust standing armies. Only we now have a standing army, and no one is going to be riding through town yelling "The Iranians are coming! The Afghans are coming! To arms! To arms!"
And what good would it do if they did? Armies have tanks and drones and fighter jets and artillery. If everyone in your neighborhood had a fully automatic weapon with plenty of ammunition, you're still going to be wiped out with the first artillery barrage. And nobody, AFAIK, is arguing that the second amendment allows you or your neighbor to have tanks and drones. (Your local police can have them, which I think is a major, major problem. I am strongly opposed to the militarization of the police. But that's a different issue.)
Anyway, all that said, if Washington DC or Philadelphia or Chicago or Denver decides that they want to do what most towns in the Wild West did back in the day, they should be able to forbid guns entirely within their city limits, and impose stiff penalties for having the guns. If you're just visiting, they should be able to require you to check your guns at an approved gun storage facility.
If San Francisco and St. Louis want to ban handguns and permit long guns, more power to them.
Of course, it will be much, much harder for a city to control guns in their city limits if they're readily available just across the line -- you can see that out here at the end of June and early July, where fireworks of every kind imaginable are sold on the Indian reservations, even though most of them are illegal off the reservations.
But many cities that enacted bans on handguns thought that having an imperfect ban was better than no ban at all. I think the courts were wrong to take that away from them.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
The world our college students are now living in.
quote:
WEAPONS Possession, use or threatened use of firearms is prohibited. Possession of knives with a culinary purpose or a blade no longer than three inches is allowed. Combat knives and ceremonial swords are not.
From the 2012 University of Oregon's residence hall contract.
Compare it to the same university's residence hall contract in the 1960s.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Interesting link, Grammatica. Today's students would never survive the phone call limit of five minutes per day.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Totally irrelevant - but I picked up a brochure for the NZ film festival today and the person depicted on the cover bore a close resemblance to the ID photo of the accused posted on this thread on this thread.
It was a weird co-incidence.
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
On the issue of mass shootings, the real question is cultural, ie why they have become a feature of Western countries over the last few decades.
It is not the availability of weapons, because firearms were more freely procurable in the past (up until well into the first half of the twentieth century it was possible to walk into a shop and purchase a revolver over the counter here in Australia and in places such as Britain), and it is not the advent of automatic or semi-automatic weapons either, because anyone moderately competent with a bolt-action rifle could kill a considerable number of people by firing into a crowd.
On the issue of punishment, it is important to distinguish punishment as such, ie retribution, from possible side benefits of punishment, such as deterrence, rehabilitation and quarantine/protection.
It is also important to emphasise that except in cases of certifiable metal illness, retribution is essential to human dignity, because it assumes and attributes individual responsibility, without which people are depersonalized robotic zombies, or unpersons.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
People like Josephine; Paddy O'F and Sir Kevin have already stated my approach to both the NRA and the private possession of assault weapons.
What really brought home James Holmes' danger to society to me was his knowledge of explosives and the way he booby trapped his flat. The man is lethal. If I hadn't read a bit about his life and known he was a former postgraduate student, I would suspect him to be a former military operative, with specialist skills.
I wonder, if convicted, are there secure facilities for the criminally insane in Colorado he could be permanently confined to? It would appear he should never be allowed to walk the streets again.
My sympathies would all lie with his victims and their relatives.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
Any country which allows its private citizens routinely and as of right to arm themselves with any kind of firearm (outwith licensed and strictly controlled shooting clubs) is as mad as a bag of frogs. Period, as you Americans would say. They should all be banned, entirely.
Amen ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'll second that amen, but I saw a stat on TV last night saying that 60% of Americans still want their guns so our congress people won't go near the issue.
Even though law enforcement officers have been saying (like Josephine) that people in the theater carrying guns would have made the incident worse, we still keep hearing the "Arm everyone!" argument. We also hear that this guy would have just used a bomb in the movie if he hadn't had guns. I see no reason to believe that. Bombs have their own problems and they don't give the perp his macho moment in the spotlight.
There's a short video out now of Holmes teaching a class. If I didn't know what I know now, I would find him charming, witty, handsome. I also see no sign of mental illness at all. I doubt if someone with schizophrenia would be capable of so much detailed, logical planning. I certainly hope the jury doesn't find him insane and inflict him on all the innocent ill people in the state psychiatric hospital.
I just think he's a heartless, evil man, steeped in our culture that glorifies big violent actions. Just look at the 2 hour and 44 minute movie everyone was there to see. Some people had brought their six year old children to watch this in the middle of the night. Sure, most people can watch, get a thrill, and go home unmoved, but young brains are maleable and might not really benefit from hours and hours of violent images on their screens day after day.
I'm sure I'll get the "What about the children?" mock for saying this but I don't understand why we think we can expose our children to so much of this stuff and not have it effect them. I've been on a kick of watching old 1940's movies on You Tube this year and when I watch a contemporary film after a dozen of the old ones the contrast is really shocking, we've just become inured.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
we've just become inured.
That's the truth. I can understand a variety of contrasting viewpoints on the gun ownership issue, but this is something that both sides need to recognize: there's a far deeper evil at work here.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This may sound a little inflammatory, but I suppose it should given the life and death content of the thread: A brief internet search suggests Colorado has a 48 hour waiting period to have an abortion, and no waiting period at all to buy a gun, just an instant point-of-sale check. If this is true, it certainly underscores the cultural divides between USA and many other places. The rationale can only be ideological and cultural. I wonder what the situation is generally.
It is also suggested from my search that juveniles need parental consent to have an abortion, but not necessary to by a gun. Again, this is from an internet search, so I don't know if factual.
[ 23. July 2012, 16:50: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
A note on assault rifles for members outside the US - our military assault rifles are fully automatic, but our civilian "assault rifles" are almost always semi-auto. It's extremely difficult for a civilian to own an automatic gun here, and most states forbid them outright.
When you read about massacres with assault rifles in the US, it's always been about semiautomatic rifles.
The amount of false information in this post is incredible. The only correct statement is quote:
our civilian "assault rifles" are almost always semi-auto.
1) With some exceptions such as special operations, US military assault rifles (squad machine guns excluded) are select-fire to do either single shot (semi-auto) or 3-round burst, not automatic. Automatic is a waste of ammo in nearly every scenario.
2) It's easy to obtain an automatic rifle, provided you can come up with the cash. They're quite expensive. It also requires a $250 tax stamp per firearm from the federal government, filling out a few forms, and waiting 3 to 6 months for BATFE approval.
3) Only about a dozen (it changes) states prohibit civilian ownership of automatic firearms.
4) Not every civilain massacre is done with semi-automatic firearms. The North Hollywood bank robbery is an example. Though I guess that's not exactly a massacre since only the 2 perps were killed.
seperate note
There doesn't seem to be an agreed upon definition of an "assault rifle". As a general rule, when the news outlets use the term, they mean "a scary looking black gun that we know nothing about".
Take this "hunting rifle" and this "assualt rifle". One looks scarier than the other, but both are the same gun underneath, with the same capabilities. One would be called an "assault rifle" if used in a crime, but the term is meaningless.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I certainly hope the jury doesn't find him insane and inflict him on all the innocent ill people in the state psychiatric hospital
I have two friends who are doctors specializing in determining the mental capacity of criminal defendants. I would not be shocked to discover that one of them has already been contacted in this matter. They are the ones who would testify before a judge and before a jury about his mental capacity. This is all to say that judges and juries do not just call people insane based on their own opinions. They will have people with some pretty spectacular qualifications guiding them, and I have quite a bit of confidence that, if he ends up in the mental hospital, it will be because one of my friends has told the judge or jury that he needs to be there.
Re: the death penalty, we are still waiting on a call, as far as I know, but I can tell you that the District Attorney in the district where he is being prosecuted is known for seeking the death penalty more often than others. The majority of the people on Colorado's death row today came out of her district, and she is a persona non grata among my criminal defense attorney friends. It is a law and order kind of district, so unless his mental capacity is a mitigating factor, I expect them to seek the death penalty.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm sure the Prophet Samuel would agree - it's clearly the fault of the parents when the sons commit evil acts.
Then why doesn't it work the other way around? Samuel was a pretty good guy in the eyes of men and, apparently, God alike-- but his father Eli didn't come in for much praise.
Perhaps you were speaking ironically.
[ 23. July 2012, 17:48: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Samuel was a pretty good guy in the eyes of men and, apparently, God alike-- but his father Eli didn't come in for much praise.
Maybe because he wasn't his father? (Isn't it amazing how P4 Bible Study stays with you?)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
This may sound a little inflammatory, but I suppose it should given the life and death content of the thread: A brief internet search suggests Colorado has a 48 hour waiting period to have an abortion, and no waiting period at all to buy a gun, just an instant point-of-sale check.
This can't be right. I have friends who collect guns and they've always told me federal law requires a seven-day waiting period for a background check.
quote:
If this is true, it certainly underscores the cultural divides between USA and many other places. The rationale can only be ideological and cultural. I wonder what the situation is generally.
You don't realize that US abortion regulations are extremely lax compared to the rest of the world, do you? Look it up. Western European countries have much tighter restrictions. The only country I know of with fewer abortion regulations than the US is Canada, which seems to have none at all.
When it comes to easy abortion, sadly, we're #1 or very close to #1.
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
Posts: 246 | From: Richmond, VA | Registered: Jul 2012
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
It is also suggested from my search that juveniles need parental consent to have an abortion, but not necessary to by a gun. Again, this is from an internet search, so I don't know if factual.
Actually:
Juveniles cannot purchase handguns or handgun ammo. Period. Full stop. Must be 21 years of age.
They can purchase rifles and shotguns after 16 in some states.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
@ Olde Sea Dog
What you say is true, but as a gun owner and displaced Alaskan who used to hang out with a lot of gun nuts, I can tell you that it's fairly simple to take an SKS, AK-47, 10/22, AR-15, BAR or just about any other assault rifle and make it full auto. A little file work here, a home-made part there...
I'm personally on the fence when it comes to semi-auto weapons. I'll give some credence to the aforementioned slippery slope argument and I don't personally want to lose all my hunting rifles. However, I also see the horrific crimes committed with automatic weapons and cannot turn a blind eye to the suffering they have caused.
I also suspect that if gun crime continues to escalate then they'll simply repeal the 2nd amendment altogether and I'll be back to trying to hunt ducks with a blowgun. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'm a big fan of middle ground solutions, and IMO registration and Brady Bill-esk legislation is probably the way to go if we gun owners want to keep any of our 2nd amendment rights at all. It's not a perfect solution from either side of the debate, but it's probably a bit better than the way things are now.
However, I'm afraid neither side wishes to compromise at all.
Yes, middle ground is good ...... it's worthwhile to note that there is not really a strong correlation between lawful gun ownership and gun homicides. There is SOME slight correlation but there are numerous cases that buck the trend: in this country the big cities with strict control such as LA, Boston, or NYC have fairly high gun death rates, but so do southern cities without much control, and several "easy" states such as Vermont have low murder rates.
Internationally we see Switzerland as a sort of extreme case of little gun control - more than there used to be, but still every household with an adult make has a fully automatic rifle as part of the citizen militia - and they have a very low murder rate.
I suspect that cultural factors are more important than gun control legislation, but it's quite hard to legislate morality.
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
One aspect of the Columbine case that never received enough exposure was the role of anti-depressants. Zoloft and then Luvox were prescribed by Eric Harris's psychiatrist, when neither drug was authorized for pediatric use. Luvox has since been taken off the market altogether.
How much has been publicized about strange substances in the blood of this murderer? I suspect, very little if anything. I suspect that it will remain so, too, if a certain powerful industry has its way.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
..........2) It's easy to obtain an automatic rifle, provided you can come up with the cash. They're quite expensive. It also requires a $250 tax stamp per firearm from the federal government, filling out a few forms, and waiting 3 to 6 months for BATFE approval........
.
The BATFE approval is what I've heard is the hard part (or it used to be, I don't know what the situation is now, federal attitudes can change a lot). Very difficult unless you have lots of sterling references. That's probably why so few people have automatic weapons, even though there are so many gun nuts who want them.
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
I'd bet that more people have them than one might think in states that allow them. I can find someone shooting one at one of my local ranges about once or twice a month. They're still rare, but that's primarily due to cost, not availability or the BATFE. Unless the BATFE finds some reason to deny the application, they won't.
A typical semi-automatic rifle will run between $500 and $1,000. A typical automatic will run from about $15,000 to $25,000. More for specialty items like full on machine guns. That's a hard pill to swallow for most folks.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I certainly hope the jury doesn't find him insane and inflict him on all the innocent ill people in the state psychiatric hospital
I have two friends who are doctors specializing in determining the mental capacity of criminal defendants. I would not be shocked to discover that one of them has already been contacted in this matter. They are the ones who would testify before a judge and before a jury about his mental capacity. This is all to say that judges and juries do not just call people insane based on their own opinions. They will have people with some pretty spectacular qualifications guiding them, and I have quite a bit of confidence that, if he ends up in the mental hospital, it will be because one of my friends has told the judge or jury that he needs to be there.
Re: the death penalty, we are still waiting on a call, as far as I know, but I can tell you that the District Attorney in the district where he is being prosecuted is known for seeking the death penalty more often than others. The majority of the people on Colorado's death row today came out of her district, and she is a persona non grata among my criminal defense attorney friends. It is a law and order kind of district, so unless his mental capacity is a mitigating factor, I expect them to seek the death penalty.
I would certainly applaud the use of expert evidence in this area. Of course, a judge is still stuck with making the ultimate decision if the experts disagree, which does happen.
Regarding the death penalty, I'd be fairly amazed if it wasn't sought if he is determined to be mentally competent. I'm not in favour of the death penalty as a matter of principle, but given that it's available as a matter of law in Colorado, if you're not going to use it for random mass murder, when ARE you going to use it?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Alogon raised an important point. James Harris looked extremely strange when he was arraigned. His behaviour was also bizarre.
I am not sure what substances, prescribed or otherwise, he took before committing the murders, but I suspect it might have been a cocktail of the sort which really blows your mind. My hope is that they really get expert evaluation here, because it would be vital to ensuring a fair trial, which I think he deserves, whatever he appears to have done.
There must have been something he chanced upon in his, seemingly lonely, life as a graduate student which pushed him over the edge. Whatever it was, a single event, or a series, the results were pretty much diabolical.
With all these multiple murder outrages there is much society can learn. I wonder if we are looking in the right places or asking anywhere near the right questions.
He is, quite obviously, not a normal person as we know it.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Re: the death penalty, we are still waiting on a call, as far as I know, but I can tell you that the District Attorney in the district where he is being prosecuted is known for seeking the death penalty more often than others. The majority of the people on Colorado's death row today came out of her district, and she is a persona non grata among my criminal defense attorney friends. It is a law and order kind of district, so unless his mental capacity is a mitigating factor, I expect them to seek the death penalty.
A clip on the Australian TV news this morning showed a lady who I think was the DA of Colorado saying that it would be up to victims' families to decide whether the prosecution should seek the death penalty. Surely sentencing is a matter for the judge rather than the victims' families, or is this just another peculiarity of US law like the right to shoot anyone anytime so long as you can claim it's in self-defense. (Not that the Joker arrested has claimed that yet.)
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That's not a feature of U.S. law (duh) and neither is the other thing you mentioned (as I'm sure you know). The victims' families may be consulted/asked to testify because they are intimately involved in the situation, having experienced its direct impact, and to ignore them altogether would be ... what's the word... rude? Also cold and unfeeling. They should at least be heard if they want to be, even if not a word of what they say has any effect on legal decisions. But they don't make the decision to try for a death penalty. That choice would be up to the prosecutor, within the options circumscribed by law. (And whatever he/she may say in the interests of winning public sympathy and attempting to shuffle off the onus of being the real decisionmaker. But we all know better)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Alogon raised an important point. James Harris looked extremely strange when he was arraigned. His behaviour was also bizarre.
I am not sure what substances, prescribed or otherwise, he took before committing the murders, but I suspect it might have been a cocktail of the sort which really blows your mind. My hope is that they really get expert evaluation here, because it would be vital to ensuring a fair trial, which I think he deserves, whatever he appears to have done.
There must have been something he chanced upon in his, seemingly lonely, life as a graduate student which pushed him over the edge. Whatever it was, a single event, or a series, the results were pretty much diabolical.
With all these multiple murder outrages there is much society can learn. I wonder if we are looking in the right places or asking anywhere near the right questions.
He is, quite obviously, not a normal person as we know it.
The minute or so of his court appearance I saw on television suggests someone who is sleepy but can't get to sleep.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Re: the death penalty, we are still waiting on a call, as far as I know, but I can tell you that the District Attorney in the district where he is being prosecuted is known for seeking the death penalty more often than others. The majority of the people on Colorado's death row today came out of her district, and she is a persona non grata among my criminal defense attorney friends. It is a law and order kind of district, so unless his mental capacity is a mitigating factor, I expect them to seek the death penalty.
A clip on the Australian TV news this morning showed a lady who I think was the DA of Colorado saying that it would be up to victims' families to decide whether the prosecution should seek the death penalty. Surely sentencing is a matter for the judge rather than the victims' families, or is this just another peculiarity of US law like the right to shoot anyone anytime so long as you can claim it's in self-defense. (Not that the Joker arrested has claimed that yet.)
The Judge makes the decision at the sentencing hearing, but the DA has to ask for the death penalty. And while the DA does make the final call about asking for the death penalty, there has developed in the American system an intense focus on victim's rights. For instance, in Colorado, the victim has to have notice of any court dates, and if the DA cannot show that notice, the hearing cannot go forward. So they probably have to consult the victims, but the final call goes to the DA. (Small point- the State is broken up into judicial district, each consisting of several counties. So there isn't a state DA; that was probably Carol Chambers, the 18 Judicial District's DA. Google "Carol Chambers Death Penalty" to see what I was talking about.)
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
It isn't rocket science. You just have to make it impossible for all people and especially nutters from getting guns.
If you have a system where any college dropout can get assault rifles and enough ammo to defend the Alamo you are bound to get regular massacres.
No members of the public should be allowed to own high velocity guns. Full Stop.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
One aspect of the Columbine case that never received enough exposure was the role of anti-depressants. Zoloft and then Luvox were prescribed by Eric Harris's psychiatrist, when neither drug was authorized for pediatric use. Luvox has since been taken off the market altogether.
This is incorrect. Here's some info for you.
Luvox, which is brandname of fluvoxamine, is off the market, but fluvoxamine is not. The drug monograph for fluvoxamine contains the following:
quote:
Peds Dosing .
Dosage forms: 25,50,100
obsessive-compulsive disorder
[8-11 yo]
Dose: 50-200 mg PO qd div qd-bid; Start: 25 mg PO qhs, incr. 25 mg q4-7 days; Max: 200 mg/day; Info: consider lower dose in females in this age group; to D/C taper dose gradually
[12-17 yo]
Dose: 50-200 mg PO qd div qd-bid; Start: 25 mg PO qhs, incr. 25 mg q4-7 days; Max: 300 mg/day; Info: to D/C taper dose gradually
Zoloft's (sertraline) monograph contains this:
quote:
Peds Dosing .
Dosage forms: 25,50,100; 20/mL
obsessive-compulsive disorder
[6-12 yo]
Dose: 25 mg PO qd; Max 200 mg/day; Info: may incr. 25-50 mg/day qwk; taper dose gradually to D/C
[13-17 yo]
Dose: 50 mg PO qd; Max 200 mg/day; Info: may incr. 25-50 mg/day qwk; taper dose gradually to D/C
(edit: source Epocrates.com, which anyone can join and use online for free, a USA site)
[ 24. July 2012, 15:09: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
It isn't rocket science. You just have to make it impossible for all people and especially nutters from getting guns.
Well, we can go back to Prohibition, since that kept booze away from folks who wanted to drink, or look at our current drug laws since people can only obtain drugs prescribed by their physicians or we could look at our border patrol since no one enters the country illegally.
quote:
If you have a system where any college dropout can get assault rifles and enough ammo to defend the Alamo you are bound to get regular massacres.
It seems more accurate to say that if a person is bound and determined to pull off a certain deed, if his conscience won't stop him then no law will.
quote:
No members of the public should be allowed to own high velocity guns. Full Stop.
When you outlaw things people want all you do is change who they have to buy from. I'd suspect the vast majority of criminal gangs agree with many politicians and fully endorse tough drug laws, support restrictions if not outright bans on the private ownership of firearms and maybe even the sale of alcoholic beverages.
[ 24. July 2012, 15:19: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Do you think that the homicidal maniac in Colorado should get life in prison at hard labour? Shouldn't his parents get the same punishment for raising such an evil son? That's what I think. Discuss.
I think the notion that parents are responsible for the moral choices of their adult son is insulting. So much for free will. There is no justice in condemning a person solely for the actions of a relative. The very thought is disgusting.
What information do you have to base your assumption that his parents caused him to be murderer? It sounds like he had a pretty mainstream upbringing and had the hallmarks of a good childhood - involved in his church, worked hard in school.
Do you not allow for the possibility that each of us has the capacity for great evil? It's only the neglect or malfeasance of parents that could "create" an "evil son?"
Pardon me, but who exactly the fuck are you to judge them?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Punishment shouldn't be about revenge or making the life of the accused "miserable", but about protecting others against a dangerously violent person by removing him from society. Prison should certainly be austere, but not psychologically unbearable or needlessly cruel.
Eh, I agree that retribution should not be a major consideration of criminal punishment, but I wouldn't limit the considerations to sequestering felons. To the extent that a person commits a criminal act with the requisite capacity to make meaningful moral choices (i.e. with the exception of the severely mentally ill), crime ought to be punished in such a harsh way to provide a disincentive for crime.
The justice system would not be so effective if the worst punishment one could receive is life in supervised confinement that contained no element of unpleasantness.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Personally, in terms of experience of crimes, the thing I think about it that the offender is out of circulation, and not able to do anything violent. Out of sight, out of mind. I'd prefer never to hear about such people as this murderer or the Norway murderer once sentenced. Disappeared from public view.
Locking people up is the highest level of supervision. Having people on the street and just reporting to a probation worker periodically is the least. I cannot understand why we don't have a lot more in between supervision for many offenders, like lifetime GPS-electronic monitoring. A repeat murderer, sex offender, etc is unacceptable.
In terms of austere, not quite sure what that means. Canadian prison cells are typically about the size of the average residential bathroom containing toilet, sink and bathtub. When I see American prisons on TV, they look similar but there's often more people in them to the Canadian 1 or 2. But the point seems to be that exposure to dangerous people who will hurt you is part of the punishment.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems more accurate to say that if a person is bound and determined to pull off a certain deed, if his conscience won't stop him then no law will.
This. Otherwise we have to ban such normal items as nails, bleach, aluminum foil, and anything sold in a plastic bottle.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems more accurate to say that if a person is bound and determined to pull off a certain deed, if his conscience won't stop him then no law will.
This. Otherwise we have to ban such normal items as nails, bleach, aluminum foil, and anything sold in a plastic bottle.
All total irrelevant bollocks.
Mass murderers are enabled to mass murder when they have the ability to lay hands on weapons which allow them to kill at some distance - feet, at least, yards usually - without reloading.
A guy who goes berserk in a cinema with a knife - even a knife of machete proportions - can cause huge damage, certainly, but can also be overpowered by concerted action or outstanding bravery: and you don't have to be a macho man. Look up Lisa Potts GM.
All that Yankee NRA crap about "guns don't kill people, people kill people" - quite apart from not redounding to the collective credit of the citizens of the United States - is only correct in one way - intention.
When it comes to execution, guns - the guns your stupid Second Amendment protects - are way ahead of anything else in killing powerless and innocent people.
When will you people see sense?
[ 24. July 2012, 20:29: Message edited by: Ondergard ]
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
When it comes to execution, guns - the guns your stupid Second Amendment protects - are way ahead of anything else in killing powerless and innocent people.
When will you people see sense?
The July 7 bombings didn't require a single gun and still killed a bunch of people.
Murder is illegal, and yet it happened anyway. What makes you think that someone who is set on murdering a dozen innocent people will give a flying crap about a gun ban?
I'm not a gun rights absolutist, but we have the Constitution that we have, and we've only amended it a handful of times. I don't see the Second Amendment being repealed.
Besides which, there's nothing more impertinent than a Brit chastising us for laws that don't affect him. You don't hear me griping about how fucking stupid establishment of the C of E is in the year 2012. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Alogon raised an important point. James Harris looked extremely strange when he was arraigned. His behaviour was also bizarre.
I am not sure what substances, prescribed or otherwise, he took before committing the murders, but I suspect it might have been a cocktail of the sort which really blows your mind. My hope is that they really get expert evaluation here, because it would be vital to ensuring a fair trial, which I think he deserves, whatever he appears to have done.
There must have been something he chanced upon in his, seemingly lonely, life as a graduate student which pushed him over the edge. Whatever it was, a single event, or a series, the results were pretty much diabolical.
With all these multiple murder outrages there is much society can learn. I wonder if we are looking in the right places or asking anywhere near the right questions.
He is, quite obviously, not a normal person as we know it.
Interesting ...... to me the outstanding thing was how ordinary his behavior was before and after the shooting, other than that picture in which he was obviously mimicking Jared Loughner's nutty smile.
He's certainly no nutter, having planned this long in advance, accumulated guns and ammo, and having booby-trapped his apartment with more thought than the average wartime sapper would have. All that time, he never spoke about enemies or put bizarre rantings up on the internet.
I suspect his field of study had something to do with his coldhearted decision. Maybe he thought of people as being simply biochemical automatons, that there would be nothing more wrong in killing a human than in killing a robot. I wouldn't be surprised if he had intended to kill himself afterward, to take as many as possible with him to demonstrate what an intelligent mass murderer could accomplish ....... but then found his ability to commit suicide wilt at the sight of so many guns pointed at him.
Or maybe he intends to play the system as much as possible, aiming for a lifetime of ease and comfort in a mental hospital, of a regression to a womb-like lack of all responsibility.
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Besides which, there's nothing more impertinent than a Brit chastising us for laws that don't affect him. You don't hear me griping about how fucking stupid establishment of the C of E is in the year 2012.
I'm hip. We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists. That's what Patrick Henry said, anyway, and I'll take his word over any Brit.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
He's certainly no nutter, having planned this long in advance, accumulated guns and ammo, and having booby-trapped his apartment with more thought than the average wartime sapper would have. All that time, he never spoke about enemies or put bizarre rantings up on the internet.
I'm no psychiatrist, and I don't know your background, but does a plan and premeditation necessarily rule out that he was operating under an insane delusion? I imagine there are high functioning schizophrenics who are completely paranoid and delusional but can engage in planning and goal-oriented behavior.
Also, as a person with some good friends and close relatives who suffer from mental illness, could I ask you to avoid referring to the genuinely mentally ill as "nutters"? It's no less offensive than calling someone with Down Syndrome a "tard."
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Have a look at Delusional disorder. People can have a coherent delusional system that allows them to think, believe and feel things that are manifestly untrue, but not show flagrant craziness.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
Or maybe he intends to play the system as much as possible, aiming for a lifetime of ease and comfort in a mental hospital, of a regression to a womb-like lack of all responsibility.
Where are these cushy, comfy, state run mental hospitals for the criminally insane? The best ones I've ever seen are bleak, depressing, dangerous and often terrifying.
The insanity plea is used in the U.S Criminal Justice System in less than 1% of all criminal cases. The people who succeed in winning it usually spend more time locked up, with far less privileges, than the murderers who go to prison. They have no appeal system.
When John Hinkley tried to kill Ronald Reagan he was a young man, newly struck with schizophrenia. After he was judged insane he was locked up in an institution where he quickly responded to medication and has been harmless ever sense. Thirty years later he's still there while many people after him have murdered, done time, and been released.
When someone is facing the death penalty, the insanity defense might be "working the system," but up against "life," it's probably not such a good deal.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
I'm quite sure that schizophrenia rules out any accurate, long-term planning - not to speak of advanced graduate studies which were successful until recently. Such planning without giving any signs of paranoia or other symptoms would argue against any such diagnosis. (there are both American and British manuals of diagnosis online if you want to check what I'm saying, or you could ask a psychiatrist if you know one).
A perfect example of a true paranoid schizophrenic who planned a little in advance, but not extensively, would be Jared Loughner. He gave many examples of disordered and paranoid thinking for some years in advance, and it was evident on his webpage. In my opinion, Loughner would not have been able to anything like what Holmes planned out in advance, especially the intricate booby-trapping.
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
Or maybe he intends to play the system as much as possible, aiming for a lifetime of ease and comfort in a mental hospital, of a regression to a womb-like lack of all responsibility.
Where are these cushy, comfy, state run mental hospitals for the criminally insane? The best ones I've ever seen are bleak, depressing, dangerous and often terrifying.
The insanity plea is used in the U.S Criminal Justice System in less than 1% of all criminal cases. The people who succeed in winning it usually spend more time locked up, with far less privileges, than the murderers who go to prison. They have no appeal system.
When John Hinkley tried to kill Ronald Reagan he was a young man, newly struck with schizophrenia. After he was judged insane he was locked up in an institution where he quickly responded to medication and has been harmless ever sense. Thirty years later he's still there while many people after him have murdered, done time, and been released.
When someone is facing the death penalty, the insanity defense might be "working the system," but up against "life," it's probably not such a good deal.
Those are good points, except that it's not relevant what the actual situation is - the only relevant matter is what Holmes BELIEVES ..... which is likely to be standard fare.
I think he's read about Loughner's situation (remember the smile mimicking Loughner's), and he thought that Loughner's situation wasn't so very bad after all (and maybe it isn't - I'd like to see some pics of that particular hospital, they're all so very different.)
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Have a look at Delusional disorder. People can have a coherent delusional system that allows them to think, believe and feel things that are manifestly untrue, but not show flagrant craziness.
He hasn't given any indication of having a delusion, but I'm sure that will come out with the court-ordered psych evaluation, if there is one. But scroll down on that page to Indicators of a Delusion, and then Features. Already it seems unlikely he has that problem, since he would have shown it to some of the several friends and family that have been interviewed.
On the other hand, his mother apparently had some reason for thinking that he did it, as a first reaction after being told.
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
News story today has her explaining the ambiguous statement "You have the right person" she said to the media guy who called her. She says in that conversation it meant "Yes, I am the mother of the guy you just named, you've got the right person on the phone" and NOT "Yes, the police have arrested the true criminal."
This sounds sensible. Particularly if it was a media guy she was talking to, who couldn't "have" the perpetrator in any sense (unlike the police).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I take Mere Nick's and Olde Sea Dog's points. Perhaps Harris was heavily sedated before arraignment.
He is, as OSD points out, a very strange young man. We had someone a wee bit like him here in Tasmania a few years ago called Martin Bryant, who, after committing his atrocity, was on suicide watch.
Whether he is insane, or extremely anti-social and the difference is sometimes hard to work out, having worked with someone on the borderline years ago, who was diagnosed as the latter, I don't know. The person I'm thinking of wasn't a killer, though, just a flaming eccentric.
Being in a secure psychiatric facility, possibly in isolation, for the rest of his life, may possibly be the worst fate for him because I think his actions were a statement of sorts. In a few years he'll be just another "never to be released" inmate or they may execute him. Not much of a "statement" from him in either case.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re delusion:
He does seem to think he's the Joker, one of Batman's foes--right down to dying his hair red.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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