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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Life in prison at hard labour for Denver shooter (Page 4)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Life in prison at hard labour for Denver shooter
Ondergard
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# 9324

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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
When it comes to execution, guns - the guns your stupid Second Amendment protects - are way ahead of anything else in killing powerless and innocent people.

When will you people see sense?

The July 7 bombings didn't require a single gun and still killed a bunch of people.
But they didn't buy their bombs from a licenced bomb shop, whose existence is protected by vested interest and Common Law, did they?

quote:
Murder is illegal, and yet it happened anyway. What makes you think that someone who is set on murdering a dozen innocent people will give a flying crap about a gun ban?
I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer above. The reason we don't have so many murders in this country, proportionately, compared to the US, is more to do with the ROUTINE availability of guns in the US, the availability of which for legitimate purchase is enshrined in your crazy Second Amendment, than it is to any difference in the level of homicidal mania in the general populations.

quote:
I'm not a gun rights absolutist, but we have the Constitution that we have, and we've only amended it a handful of times. I don't see the Second Amendment being repealed.

Besides which, there's nothing more impertinent than a Brit chastising us for laws that don't affect him. You don't hear me griping about how fucking stupid establishment of the C of E is in the year 2012. [Disappointed]

You got the wrong guy here, Yank. I am not now, and have never been... (to quote the litany from one of the Committees chaired by one of your more colourful Senators of the Fifties)... a member of the Church of England, for whose disestablishment I most devoutly wish... but even the most partisan Methodist, like me, doesn't think that the Establishment of the Church of England has lead down the years to a direct link between the existence of cathedrals and an epidemic of thirty crazy bishops, in full regalia, mowing down a cinema audience with a jewel-encrusted Smith & Wesson semi-automatic crozier.
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aumbry
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# 436

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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:

He's certainly no nutter, having planned this long in advance, accumulated guns and ammo, and having booby-trapped his apartment with more thought than the average wartime sapper would have. All that time, he never spoke about enemies or put bizarre rantings up on the internet.

I'm no psychiatrist, and I don't know your background, but does a plan and premeditation necessarily rule out that he was operating under an insane delusion? I imagine there are high functioning schizophrenics who are completely paranoid and delusional but can engage in planning and goal-oriented behavior.

Also, as a person with some good friends and close relatives who suffer from mental illness, could I ask you to avoid referring to the genuinely mentally ill as "nutters"? It's no less offensive than calling someone with Down Syndrome a "tard."

If shooting dozens of innocent people watching a film does not qualify the killer as a nutter I don't know what does. And to suggest that this is an insult to all people with mental illness is purest humbug.

And your juxtaposition of the right to carry arms with the establishment status of the Church of England is one of the daftest things posted here in a long time.

[ 25. July 2012, 15:41: Message edited by: aumbry ]

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:

And your juxtaposition of the right to carry arms with the establishment status of the Church of England is one of the daftest things posted here in a long time.

I'm not sure about that; the competiton is very strong [Biased]

This morning on local radio there was a news item about the increased number of people in Colorado seeking firearms to protect their families.

It brought home to me how little I understand the American situation. I do the understand wish to protect, but the increase in numbers seemed to reflect a belief that buying a gun was the only way people could feel safe.

I'm not judging, I just felt sad about the levels of desperation I thought this reflected.

I also realise I am probably hopelessly naive [Hot and Hormonal] .

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
If shooting dozens of innocent people watching a film does not qualify the killer as a nutter I don't know what does. And to suggest that this is an insult to all people with mental illness is purest humbug.


I have to disagree with you. Many have been killed in anger, retaliation, desperation or as it appears in the Anders Breivik case, after cool, though perverse, reasoning.

Describing those committing particularly despicable crimes, or even criminals as a whole, as 'nutters' or in some way mentally ill, is little more than an attempt to separate 'normal' folk from the kind of people who do that sort of thing.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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In legal terms, whether or not you're a 'nutter' has to do more with your ability to form thought processes than with the conclusions you make.

You can't label every conclusion to do something really bad as 'crazy', otherwise you'd never convict anyone of anything much, on the grounds that no sensible person would put themselves at the risk of being locked up for years on end.


Meanwhile, I spotted a little report on the BBC suggesting that gun sales in that patch of Colorado have gone up this week. You want to talk about nutters, there's an entire culture in the US of A that comes across as unhinged...

[ 26. July 2012, 07:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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aumbry
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# 436

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

[/qb]

I have to disagree with you. Many have been killed in anger, retaliation, desperation or as it appears in the Anders Breivik case, after cool, though perverse, reasoning.


Describing those committing particularly despicable crimes, or even criminals as a whole, as 'nutters' or in some way mentally ill, is little more than an attempt to separate 'normal' folk from the kind of people who do that sort of thing. [/qb][/QUOTE]

I part take your point but would be interested to know what the cool though perverse reasoning could be that would draw such a conclusion? And as a semantic point can reason ever be perverse without being a form of anti-reason?

[ 26. July 2012, 09:19: Message edited by: aumbry ]

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re delusion:

He does seem to think he's the Joker, one of Batman's foes--right down to dying his hair red.

That has implications.
[Eek!]

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Well...

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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The media have made the link between his hair colour and believing he is the Joker many times. But when has the Joker had RED hair? If he'd dyed his hair green it might be significant.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Sir Pellinore
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I think it's the loud colour, Robert Armin. It makes him stand out like the Joker. I think he's trying to attract attention, or was.

Remember the old Goon Show saying: "The plot thins"? As the drama unfolds he seems stranger and stranger. Something has really gone amiss. This is no normal person.

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Well...

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Lots of people today dye their hair red, simply because it looks good. I haven't yet met one who claimed it made them look like the Joker. Given that it is fairly easy to change the colour of your hair I would have thought he would have gone for green, if that was the link he wanted to make.

This young man is clearly seriously disturbed, However I think there's a lot of over-analysis going on here.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Lots of people today dye their hair red, simply because it looks good.

In whose eyes?

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
News story today has her explaining the ambiguous statement "You have the right person" she said to the media guy who called her. She says in that conversation it meant "Yes, I am the mother of the guy you just named, you've got the right person on the phone" and NOT "Yes, the police have arrested the true criminal."

This sounds sensible. Particularly if it was a media guy she was talking to, who couldn't "have" the perpetrator in any sense (unlike the police).

That was ABC News, too. The same one that altered George Zimmerman's 911 call about Trayvon Martin to make him sound racist. I thought FOX was bad.
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Sioni Sais
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A topical one from the UK, in which a student was shot, apparently at random and the killer pleaded for manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. The jury found him guilty of murder.

He named himself 'Psycho' in court.
[Disappointed]

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This story is well worth the read. Gives some perspective.

quote:
The survivors who fared the best, he found, didn't grant pardons.
"They don't absolve their would-be killers and they haven't stopped crying, even decades later," he says.
A little anger and competitive zeal can actually help,

quote:
"I don't care enough to know his name," .... "He's a piece of s**t to me. These guys do it, and their names are out there forever. Victims are left to sink or swim."

...Americans' reactions to mass killings are now ritualized: heroic stories about survivors, calls for gun control, psychologists offering insights into the mind of the twisted killer on television.


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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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Here's an interesting contribution by Prof. Paul Mullen, clinical psychiatrist. He argues that these kinds of mass killings are culturally conditioned, did not arise in Western culture till 1913 (though they have been known in other cultures for longer), and do not generally involve "clinically insane" people. According to him, the rate of serious psychological disturbances in such crimes is similar to that in other serious crimes, at only 10%. Most of these people are "mad" in a popular sense, but not in a clinical one. He also argues that because practically all of these killers are obsessive, and because they need specific killing tech for maximum damage, most of them likely can be detected by the authorities during their lengthy preparatory phase.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The media have made the link between his hair colour and believing he is the Joker many times. But when has the Joker had RED hair? If he'd dyed his hair green it might be significant.

IIRC, he had red hair in the old TV series (which I grew up on). Played by Cesar Romero.

I'm not up on what the recent Jokers have looked like. I've watched some of the various Batman films, but found the villains far too dark and twisted. However, Batman, Alfred, and Catwoman made the movies worth it. I'd planned to see this one, partly because I love Michael Caine. After the shooting, I figured I'd wait a week or two, then go on a weekday during the day. But there was a guy here in N. Calif. who stood up in a showing and started yelling about Colorado. So my plans are on hold.

I'm not familiar with the comic books; but, based on the old series, I'm guessing that the Joker in the original comics had red hair, too.

Yes, lots of people die their hair red. But this guy reportedly had a Joker mask in his apartment, and told the cops he's the Joker.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The media have made the link between his hair colour and believing he is the Joker many times. But when has the Joker had RED hair? If he'd dyed his hair green it might be significant.

IIRC, he had red hair in the old TV series (which I grew up on). Played by Cesar Romero.

I'm not up on what the recent Jokers have looked like. I've watched some of the various Batman films, but found the villains far too dark and twisted. However, Batman, Alfred, and Catwoman made the movies worth it. I'd planned to see this one, partly because I love Michael Caine. After the shooting, I figured I'd wait a week or two, then go on a weekday during the day. But there was a guy here in N. Calif. who stood up in a showing and started yelling about Colorado. So my plans are on hold.

I'm not familiar with the comic books; but, based on the old series, I'm guessing that the Joker in the original comics had red hair, too.

Yes, lots of people die their hair red. But this guy reportedly had a Joker mask in his apartment, and told the cops he's the Joker.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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If he's calling himself the Joker then the link makes sense. But I think I'm right in saying that in the comics he's had green hair from the start, which is what confused me. (Am I at the fundamentalist end of the comic book spectrum?)

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Mark Betts

Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Most of these people are "mad" in a popular sense, but not in a clinical one.

What on earth is that supposed to mean?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Josephine

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Most of these people are "mad" in a popular sense, but not in a clinical one.

What on earth is that supposed to mean?
That ordinary folks would say that anyone who does this has got to be nuts to do what they did. But they're not in fact mentally ill.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Sir Pellinore
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I think the dyed hair might be a bit of a red herring. As more evidence becomes available, I am beginning to doubt whether James Holmes was totally on this planet immediately prior to, or at the time of the shootings. How long he has been like that and whether he is currently normal psychologically, in the broadest sense, are open to investigation.

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Well...

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Holmes may have found that green hair dye is harder to get hold of than semi-automatic weapons and so settled for L'Oreal Sunset Red.
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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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According to today's paper, he was under psychiatric treatment.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Sir Kevin
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# 3492

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Describing those committing particularly despicable crimes, or even criminals as a whole, as 'nutters' or in some way mentally ill, is little more than an attempt to separate 'normal' folk from the kind of people who do that sort of thing.

I agree. Someone in a speech or stand-up interview here in the US referred to the perpetrator of this heinous act as a
demon: I think that term is light-years more appropriate!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I double-checked my memory of the Joker's hair. According to various sites, both the Cesar Romero and Heath Ledger versions had red hair.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Apologies for being a bore (I must get out more) but Cesar Romero had green hair when playing the Joker, as did Heath Ledger.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Apologies for being a bore (I must get out more) but Cesar Romero had green hair when playing the Joker, as did Heath Ledger.

Just checked out a numerous Cesar Romero pics as Batman and found a couple with red hair as well as numerous with green. That's 60's television for you. Batman with Red Hair

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Wow - I stand corrected. I wonder what the thinking was behind that.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Just checked out a numerous Cesar Romero pics as Batman and found a couple with red hair as well as numerous with green. That's 60's television for you. Batman with Red Hair

Ummm..... I'm not a comic book geek, but I think you mean Joker with Red Hair. Right?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I already made reference to Azaria Chamberlain in the related hell thread. This whole hair colour business is reminding me about all the assertions that "Azaria" meant "sacrifice". Never mind that his hair isn't actually the correct colour for most depictions of the Joker, it HAS to mean something.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I already made reference to Azaria Chamberlain in the related hell thread. This whole hair colour business is reminding me about all the assertions that "Azaria" meant "sacrifice". Never mind that his hair isn't actually the correct colour for most depictions of the Joker, it HAS to mean something.

Both, I think, are proving gigantic red herrings.

I'm not surprised evidence is coming out that Holmes was seriously mentally at risk of doing something like this and that his treating psychiatrist was previously cautioned about inappropriately medicating people.

Most mentally ill people are no danger to anyone else. As the plot unfolds he seems a very special case indeed. The tragedy is being compounded: especially if it was in any way avoidable.

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Well...

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re red hair:

This is where I got the info that Heath's version of Joker had red hair:

quote:
Holmes’ dyed red hair, however, more closely resembled the late Heath Ledger’s “Dark Knight” Joker, or the one played on TV by the late actor Cesar Romero.



--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Sir Pellinore
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# 12163

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I guess the "hair colour" sub-thread continues. [Big Grin]

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Well...

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Just knotting up the loose end of the sub-thread! [Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Most mentally ill people are no danger to anyone else.

Generally true, but shit happens.

We had a friend at our last church who was on a disability pension because of his schizophrenia.

He would enliven Bible study groups with dirty jokes when he got bored: he once walked out to the front of the church, took the microphone from the pastor, and delivered his own little homily; and periodically we had to carefully suggest to him that perhaps, just perhaps, he had misheard God's command to go off his medication.

Everyone loved him, and assumed he was completely harmless.

Then one day, all out of the blue, he attacked his parents with a knife.

Fortunately they managed to restrain him, no-one was hurt, and after receiving professional help he seems to have settled back to (his) normality.

The point is that we need to be careful not only about blaming perpetrators with a history of mental illness, but blaming those whom we imagine should have been clairvoyant enough to know what they were going to do.

[ 30. July 2012, 07:22: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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I've pursued the hair colour theme because it confuses me. If you identified with someone to the extent of making yourself look like them and, even worse, acting in a horrific way just like they did, don't you think you would get the details right? If this chap was such a big comic fan that he wanted to be the Joker why didn't he dye his hair green? The red hair may mean something, but I don't think its what the media are claiming.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Just checked out a numerous Cesar Romero pics as Batman and found a couple with red hair as well as numerous with green. That's 60's television for you. Batman with Red Hair

Ummm..... I'm not a comic book geek, but I think you mean Joker with Red Hair. Right?
[Hot and Hormonal] Yup, that's what I get for posting during bouts of insomnia. Cesar Romero as the Joker is right.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I've pursued the hair colour theme because it confuses me. If you identified with someone to the extent of making yourself look like them and, even worse, acting in a horrific way just like they did, don't you think you would get the details right? If this chap was such a big comic fan that he wanted to be the Joker why didn't he dye his hair green? The red hair may mean something, but I don't think its what the media are claiming.

Since the Joker appeared with both red and green hair either would technically correct. Who knows whether the suspect saw any version of Batman, TV or movie. Personally, I think he's tried to set himself up in advance for an insanity plea.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
]........ Personally, I think he's tried to set himself up in advance for an insanity plea.

I agree, but the way it works in this country is that a person mentally ill is held in a hospital until they are judged fit to stand trial. There's no way to get out of eventually standing trial unless the person dies in the hospital.

Holmes may not be aware of that, lots of people still think one can get out of doing prison by staying a coupla years in the hospital and then getting out once "cured".

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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
]........ Personally, I think he's tried to set himself up in advance for an insanity plea.

I agree, but the way it works in this country is that a person mentally ill is held in a hospital until they are judged fit to stand trial. There's no way to get out of eventually standing trial unless the person dies in the hospital.

Holmes may not be aware of that, lots of people still think one can get out of doing prison by staying a coupla years in the hospital and then getting out once "cured".

Actually, there is an addition to that: if a person goes to trial and is found Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity they'll be sentenced to a Mental Institution until they are judged returned to sanity and then they are set free. The fine balance is being found fit to stand trial, but not guilty by reason of insanity. I think it's that outcome he's prepping for.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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There are really 2 separate questions. The first is that of a person's fitness to be tried: can they give instructions to their lawyers; can they understand the nature of a trial; can they sensibly accept advice? The position here is that if a person is found not fit to be tried (and that's a question for a jury, based upon proper medical evidence) they are referred into the mental health system. There can be a special trial, where a court will decide if there is sufficient evidence to convict. If so, then the judge fixes a term to be sent in a forensic mental institution, rather than a sentence. Release after then depends upon the usual mental health procedures, but if a person's hospitalisation is to continue after "serving the term", that time is an a normal mental health hospital with regular reviews by an independent Tribunal.

The other question is whether a person is not guilty on the ground of mental illness. Here, the test is the old McNaghten Rule one: at the time of the action, was the accused suffering from a disease or illness of the mind such that s/he did not know the nature and quality of the act. or did not know that the act was wrong. This easily deals with the person who stabs to death 6 others with the carving knife he was carrying to peel apples with, because he had a message from God to do so. It deals with the mother who smothers her children because she believes that the world is an evil place and that the right thing to do is to bring their lives to an end, so that they can live with God. Again, the question is sone requiring expert medical evidence and in the vast majority of cases, there is no real contest between the prosecutor and those acting for the accused. By and large, they are tragic instances of what can go wrong.

What it the McNaghten Rule does not do is to deal with a psychopath. such a person does know just what they are doing, and is indifferent to whether that is right or wrong. Most psychiatrists would say that that is a form of mental illness, but the finding will be one of guilt and the person sentenced to a term of imprisonment. It looks as if this man may well fall into that category.

[ 30. July 2012, 23:03: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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One would certainly hope so!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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