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Source: (consider it) Thread: the future of the church
Sir Pellinore
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I think you are quite right, Augustine the Aleut. Young people seem to want something which both challenges them and gives life meaning. Much
confected Christianity in the West today, especially amongst the rapidly decreasing denominations, is incredibly narcissistic and wide of the mark IMHO. It caters to a rapidly decreasing number of "in" young people. That is why I think something archetypally Western Christian, like walking the Camino, helps them dig deep.

Last Sunday I was much heartened at a young man, who had had a bit of a "rest", inviting other young people to what seems like a fairly lively young people's Catholic conference. The Catholic place I was at had the young people. My previous Anglican place didn't. Or they were pushing 40 and boring, conformist and wanting something not spiritual from the place.

I think whatever needs to be done to restore life to the Western churches needs to be done now, before they lose critical mass.

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Well...

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Without anyone having told them so, they understand that it is supposed to be tough.

Is it? Since when?
Yes. Since ever. YMMV
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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Brazil can also rely on immigration in the future to replace its population, since like the US and Canada its primarily a settler country. It's harder for a place like Germany to do that.

Germany has no particular problem with boosting its population by immigration, of course. As one might expect from economic circumstances, Germany is the leader in immigration both in absolute and relative numbers within the EU, ahead of France and the UK. On a worldwide comparison, Germany is number three after the USA and Russia in total immigration numbers, and barely behind the USA in percentage of population (12.81% USA vs. 12.31% Germany). Unsurprisingly, Brazil is a complete joke concerning getting immigration so far. If you want to look at "classical" places that make Germany (as well as the USA...) look somewhat behind in immigration numbers, then you would have to go to Australia or Canada. The real immigration stars at the moment are however the Arab nations (Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, ...) or for example Switzerland, Singapore, Hong Kong, ...

In short, give people the slightest chance to go where the serious money is, and they will.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Barefoot Friar

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Certainly Padre Joshua is onto something when he speaks of us being angry with each other, instead of extending grace to those whom we disagree with. But what should we do? Agree to disagree? Whitewash over the whole thing, and just presume we are somehow in agreement when we are not? Not talk about our differences as if they didn't exist?

Jesus prayed that we should all be one, not that we should learn to live with our differences. If you talk to the man in the street about christianity, he will answer "...but which denomination is the right one?" What a shame we can't just talk about christianity and everyone understand what we mean.

But amongst the 10s of thousands of christian denominations, we can't even agree how to define the church, nor what it's mission to the world is. That's before we think about Salvation, sacraments and doctrine. Even in the Orthodox Church, although we don't have the aforementioned problems, unity and harmony aren't always what they should be, especially when you have all the different jurisdictions which we have in the UK - and we know this has done much damage to the potential of Orthodox growth over here.

So I don't think it's just about wearing a mask of amiability, and pretending to like everyone we disagree with. Ultimately it has to be about Unity - "that they may be one, as the Father and I are one", said Jesus.

I agree, wholeheartedly. I think the tension is in that dichtomy: The need to be agreeable and unified, versus the need to be faithful to one's beliefs, even when others believe differently.

I unfortunately don't have a good answer. Hopefully someday they'll look back at us, shake their heads with bemusement, and wonder why it took us so long to figure it out.

I also suspect it will have something to do with mission and the Eucharist.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
...I also suspect it will have something to do with mission and the Eucharist.

Properly understood, both the Church and the Mass/Liturgy/Eucharist are Christ's Mission on Earth and the Perpetual Renewer of It.

That might sound trite, but, I think, any general, legitimate renewal of the whole Church always seems to come out of left field from a direction the wise men of Harvard Divinity School, Cambridge, Heidelberg etc. never imagine.

It is not what we don't know but what we don't do which has brought Western Christianity to its present predicament. Everything necessary exists: it's just not being properly respected and implemented. We are talking about rediscovering the wellsprings of real holiness, both individually and community wise, not starting another study or focus group.

We really and I most certainly include myself here seem to have lost the ability to be as little children and really "see". Our blindness and impotence are self-caused. The responsibility for change lies with every individual Christian and church to do as much as he/she/they can on a practical day by day basis, without anticipating an immediate pay off. Even though it might seem futile. The irony is nothing good in this regard, however small it seems, is futile.

I am quite sure, despite the doom sayers, God actually has a plan which is slowly but surely unfolding. We need to pray, watch, listen and attempt to see and cooperate with aforesaid plan. It's not an intellectual exercise for the terminally bored but something real and tangible.

In this time I think we really need to fast and pray for wise leaders and good clergy.
[Votive]

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Well...

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Without anyone having told them so, they understand that it is supposed to be tough.

Is it? Since when?
When someone said 'Take up your cross and follow me'?

Every revival movements tends to end up as legalistic because at the height of the revival a lot of things are abandoned which are OK in their own right, but can be a distraction. Once the way of revival is over, people tend to cling to the outward forms and lose the inner reality; this is seen both in monastic movements and more recent Protestant ones - prohibition was the child of this in the USA.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Ultimately it has to be about Unity - "that they may be one, as the Father and I are one", said Jesus.

I'd guess this comment is thoroughly uncontroversial, except that for some people (not saying you, Mark Betts, just making a general comment) 'unity' means some combination of 'uniformity' and a single church institution across the whole world. But I think 'unity' can mean 'unity of purpose', requiring every Christian neither to (a) practice their faith in the same way, nor (b) to belong to one global institution.

As I mentioned upthread, I think there's a growing distrust of institutions and authority figures, so maybe the future of the church involves more working together (e.g. across denominations) but in a less formal way, for example with things like the New Monasticism movements.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
IngoB: Unsurprisingly, Brazil is a complete joke concerning getting immigration so far.
That's one of the other things that I'm seeing changing. The last couple of years, a number of Africans (mostly Angolans and Cape Verdeans, but also from other countries) are entering Brazil. Not in such a scale as in Europe, but I guess it's starting.

What this will do for the future of the church, I don't know [Confused]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Certainly Padre Joshua is onto something when he speaks of us being angry with each other, instead of extending grace to those whom we disagree with. But what should we do? Agree to disagree? Whitewash over the whole thing, and just presume we are somehow in agreement when we are not? Not talk about our differences as if they didn't exist?

Jesus prayed that we should all be one, not that we should learn to live with our differences. If you talk to the man in the street about christianity, he will answer "...but which denomination is the right one?" What a shame we can't just talk about christianity and everyone understand what we mean.

But amongst the 10s of thousands of christian denominations, we can't even agree how to define the church, nor what it's mission to the world is. That's before we think about Salvation, sacraments and doctrine. Even in the Orthodox Church, although we don't have the aforementioned problems, unity and harmony aren't always what they should be, especially when you have all the different jurisdictions which we have in the UK - and we know this has done much damage to the potential of Orthodox growth over here.

So I don't think it's just about wearing a mask of amiability, and pretending to like everyone we disagree with. Ultimately it has to be about Unity - "that they may be one, as the Father and I are one", said Jesus.

Agree with everything here - but it creates a huge tension! I wonder if one step along the road of resolving it is for Christians to be better at disagreement.

I don't mean by that that we should disagree more (!), but that we need to be better at handling disagreement and conflict. It seems that we see every single issue as a primary importance and, therefore, a potential deal-breaker if we disagree about it. This seems especially prevalent in the current DH issues, where all sides in each argument seem to come with the attitude of "we're right and if we don't get what we want we'll denounce you and split", rather than, "we disagree about this - and that's no small matter. But we're one in Christ first and foremost - let's see if we can't work together to find a way forward that we can all live with, however difficult that may be."

This extends (IMHO) to some of the comments on this thread about certain denominations and wishing that they were no longer around. That, to me, is a dangerous path to go on - setting ourselves up as the "correct" way of being Christian only makes problems worse. (Hey, even us Baptists have realised you don't need to be Baptist to be saved...)

And then the world sees a church that is divided and arguing about some issues and never the extremely good work the church is doing [Frown] .

Perhaps if we could understand that disagreement is a) normal, even for Christians, and b) in most cases not a deal-breaker for us, perhaps people might listen to what we have to say.

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
"we disagree about this - and that's no small matter. But we're one in Christ first and foremost - let's see if we can't work together to find a way forward that we can all live with, however difficult that may be."

Yes indeed! I'd just add that wouldn't it be good if Christians assumed good faith on the part of fellow believers who disagree with us. We can't pretend disagreements don't exist, certainly not, but hopefully we can be gracious in our disagreements and assume (until there's clear contrary evidence) that those on all sides of an argument are following God as best they can.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Mark Betts

Ship's Navigation Light
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Yes indeed! I'd just add that wouldn't it be good if Christians assumed good faith on the part of fellow believers who disagree with us. We can't pretend disagreements don't exist, certainly not, but hopefully we can be gracious in our disagreements and assume (until there's clear contrary evidence) that those on all sides of an argument are following God as best they can.

I think most of us try to do that anyway - but it still doesn't resolve the problem of the man-in-the-street, who doesn't know which is the right denomination and sees us all believing different things.

I think there are some things we can peacefully disagree on (such as local traditions) but others which are more difficult to just sweep under the carpet, because they are too important and affect the very essence of our core beliefs.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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SvitlanaV2
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Mark Betts

I think the 'man-in-the-street' is being disingenous when talks about being confused.

When Christians agree with each other, the accusation is that we're behaving like sheep, meekly agreeing with everything our priests/popes/pastors tell us. Yet when we disagree, we're accused of being muddled, of making things up, of avoiding a simpler truth, which is that diversity of views means we're all just making things up for our own convenience.

The point is that many people simply want a reason, any reason, to dismiss Christianity, and both unity and disunity can serve that purpose.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Mark Betts

I think the 'man-in-the-street' is being disingenous when talks about being confused.

When Christians agree with each other, the accusation is that we're behaving like sheep, meekly agreeing with everything our priests/popes/pastors tell us. Yet when we disagree, we're accused of being muddled, of making things up, of avoiding a simpler truth, which is that diversity of views means we're all just making things up for our own convenience.

The point is that many people simply want a reason, any reason, to dismiss Christianity, and both unity and disunity can serve that purpose.

Agreed - I must admit that most of the people who declare such a statement seem to be using it as an excuse for their apathy.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
If the views described in this blog post by Fred Clark over at Slacktivist are at all true, then the church has no future in America.

I agree-- to the extent that I understand a rant that is about as clear as the book of Revelation. It would be much easier to promote such an agenda in the name of Mohammed than Christ. But let's not clue Doug Wilson (whoever he is) in on that. Heaven help us all if and when the Christian far-right and the Islamist far-right discover how much they have in common.

quote:
Unreformed writes:

quote:
People are currently being told that the material is all that matters, but the trend of society will soon swing back as people become desperate for something to fulfill their spiritual needs.
Now THIS I most certainly agree with. But I'd like to know why you think such people will turn to the denominations that have purposely done their best to ape the attitudes and values of secular society, albeit trying to shoehorn them into Christian creeds and symbols.

I'll also add that, sadly, I'm not sure a religious revival will necessarily be a Christian one this time, especially in Europe. It could very well be syncretic neo-paganism (already starting with the popular phrase "spiritual, but not religious") or even Islam.



Maybe, but if so, would Europe still be Europe? If Europeans surrender to Islam, do they realize how profound that surrender would be? Richard Florida's Flight of the Creative Class contains a world map showing levels of creativity in various countries and regions. Islamic territory is as black as night.

Admittedly, creativity can be over-rated. But there goes freedom as well... political and other self-determination... the ballot box... women's equality... education worthy of the name... give them a few years and they're not gonna like it. This is not the direction that people the world over go when they get a chance to vote with their feet.

Ross Douthat is deservedly in the doghouse right now on another thread, but I was impressed when he wrote a few years back, "This is what decadence looks like: a frantic coarseness that 'bravely' trashes its own values and traditions, and then knuckles under swiftly to totalitarianism and brute force." As much as folks who fit that description may be getting exactly what they deserve, you have to feel sorry for their kids.

Syncretic neo-paganism is a dilettantish mirage at best and Satanism at worst. One interesting thing about the Christian faith is how materialistic it really is. If your are a Christian, maybe the material is not all that matters, but it is quite real and it does very much matter. The idea that one becomes spiritual by leaving the material behind is gnostic, and therefore deeply alien in another way to everything that has made Europe and America desirable places in which to live.

One might have considerable respect for Buddhism; but again, how authentically can a Westerner practice it? Fr. Lloyd tells of a group of would-be Zen Buddists in Seattle who invited a master from Japan to teach them How It's Really Done. His first words to them: To understand Zen, your native language must be Japanese.

Evangelical groups are as ephemeral and insubstantial as so many bubbles around the edges of a broth. We have to confront what John Henry Newman said: "to understand history is to become a Catholic." He wrote that (or words to that effect), of course, after he had immersed himself in patristics and history thoroughly enough to compose The Development of Christian Doctrine. He was an Anglican at that time, but found this prayerful study so illuminating as to feel that he had to swim the Tiber before it had emerged from the publisher's gestation. I'm not there yet, still believing that Anglicanism is part of the Catholic fold. Nor is it entirely by accident that the Episcopal church is associated with intelligent and successful people. I think that its values have promoted an unusual degree of vitality and balance in life; and as the smoke clears away it, this will be rediscovered. On the other hand, Newman may have been correct. Time will tell.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:


If Europeans surrender to Islam, do they realize how profound that surrender would be? Richard Florida's Flight of the Creative Class contains a world map showing levels of creativity in various countries and regions. Islamic territory is as black as night.



There's no sign that Europeans of indigenous ancestry are turning to Islam in any significant numbers. It's not clear why they would do so in the future - except that, with the ongoing decline of active Christianity, Islam might be the only religion that they actually see around them, practised by immigrants and their descendants. But by that stage, Europe would already have ceased to be 'Europe' as we imagine it. The most powerful world economies would already be outside the West, and creativity would be in the hands of the young - most of whom would not be of European descent.

[ 24. July 2012, 17:28: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I'd like to think that the kiddie-fiddlers that the RC church has protected for years will be behind bars.

I will believe that the RC church has a particular problem in the area of sexual abuse when I hear that liability insurance rates for RC churches are higher than for others. Unless they are, you are merely repeating a scurrilous and lazy stereotype.

But it does appear that a chronic and worsening shortage of RC priests has encouraged bishops to keep men in parish ministry whom it would have been wiser to terminate. Something must be done. If allowing priests to marry, or even ordaining women, would relieve this situation (although I personally don't look forward with delight to either prospect) it would be hard to deny that the Holy Spirit may be pointing the way.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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ThunderBunk

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The church has no future other than its members. To quote someone or other, "We are the body of Christ....."

This is, of course, simplistic and foolish to some extent, but I still think it's true. By continuing to be part of the life of the church, we all contribute to the development of tradition. The tradition is us, because the church is us.

[ 24. July 2012, 20:45: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Sir Pellinore
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# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
The church has no future other than its members. To quote someone or other, "We are the body of Christ....."

This is, of course, simplistic and foolish to some extent, but I still think it's true. By continuing to be part of the life of the church, we all contribute to the development of tradition. The tradition is us, because the church is us.

I would certainly hope the future of the Church is much, much more than the sum total of some of its discrete churches, FOTS, especially its more lifeless outposts.

The "Body of Christ", to me, seems, in some places, to be in an Intensive Care Ward, whilst in others, where they often don't seem to have as much materially, it's alive.

The Almighty is far more than the sum total of the Church and I suspect, somewhere well away from the media circus and ecclesiastical politics, the modern day equivalents of St Francis of Assisi and others are quietly at work renewing the Church at grassroots level. Most of us in the opinionati never get to see it.

Church Tradition is something real and needs to be rediscovered by every generation.

I am guardedly optimistic about the medium term.

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Well...

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Barefoot Friar

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The Church always seems to grow best in times of adversity.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
The Church always seems to grow best in times of adversity.

I dunno. How about the Church has always endured during times of adversity?

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
The Church always seems to grow best in times of adversity.

Or, to put it another way, it grows in times of oppression.
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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
The Church always seems to grow best in times of adversity.

Or, to put it another way, it grows in times of oppression.
The growth of Christianity in its first three centuries and the story of the church in China during Mao's time being two examples. I did some research on this for an essay a couple of years back and the China story I found just amazing.

The western missionaries were all kicked out soon after Mao came to power, then when they were gradually allowed back in after Mao's death they were expecting to find small groups of disheartened, persecuted Christians but instead discovered a thriving grassroots movement.

Whenever I get into conversation about whether Christians might soon face (or are already facing) restrictions and unfavourable treatment in the western world, I tend to think 'bring it on'. Maybe some persecution would be good for the body of Christ...

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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SvitlanaV2
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South Coast Kevin

I hear what you're saying. But I don't know if pampered Westerners such as us could really cope with all of that. We might admire other people's steadfastness, but we have no memory of serious suffering and oppression ourselves, so where would that strength come from? The Holy Spirit does give her power, but she has also withheld it at certain points in history.

When I hear British Christians whingeing about being 'marginalised' by the authorities I find the whole thing curiously underwhelming.

Maybe there are hidden reserves of 'testicular fortitude' among us. Or something.

[ 25. July 2012, 12:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:

If Europeans surrender to Islam, do they realize how profound that surrender would be?

I think you should give up reading far-right racist propaganda.

There is one thing that the people show bleat on about Europeans "surrendering" to Islam have in common - they are all evil stinking fsacist racist liars. I hope no-one ever does to Hell, but if they do,Melanie Phillips and Mark Steyn and Anders Brevik have to share a cell and listen to the shite that comes out of each others mouths.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

There's no sign that Europeans of indigenous ancestry are turning to Islam in any significant numbers. It's not clear why they would do so in the future - except that, with the ongoing decline of active Christianity, Islam might be the only religion that they actually see around them, practised by immigrants and their descendants.

Except that cultural Muslims here aren't much more likely to go to the mosque than cultural Christians are to go to church. We'll see what happens, but I expect that by the fourth generation they'll pretty much be assimilated into general society - the only chance of that not happening is if the widespread anti-Islamic bigotry (itself pretty often a surrogate for increasingly unacceptable racism) pushes immigrant groups together for security - and so bring about the opposite of that what bigots say they want.

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
The Church always seems to grow best in times of adversity.

I dunno. How about the Church has always endured during times of adversity?
Not always. There have been places and times where large Christianit populations have been almost or entirely extinguished, either by persecution or expulsion - the Arabian peninsula and north-west Africa in the early Middle Ages, central Asia and western China in the later Middle Ages, Japan in the 18th century, western Anatolia in the early 20th century, much of Palestine and Iraq in our own lifetimes, possibly Syria next?

[ 25. July 2012, 14:22: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Zach82
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quote:
Not always. There have been places and times where large Christianit populations have been almost or entirely extinguished, either by persecution or expulsion - the Arabian peninsula and north-west Africa in the early Middle Ages, central Asia and western China in the later Middle Ages, Japan in the 18th century, western Anatolia in the early 20th century, much of Palestine and Iraq in our own lifetimes, possibly Syria next?
Indeed. I was just trying to moderate the apparent glee at the next persecution of the Church. "Let thy congregation escape tribulation" and all that.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Whenever I get into conversation about whether Christians might soon face (or are already facing) restrictions and unfavourable treatment in the western world, I tend to think 'bring it on'. Maybe some persecution would be good for the body of Christ...

It would certainly sort out the men from the boys! ...and of course women/girls who are serious about their commitment to Christ, from those who aren't.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
and the megachurches that provide entertainment rather than substance will have faded just as the Toronto Movement did.

But the number of unchurched will not have decreased because the churches will still not be addressing their concerns.

Okay, I'll bite : what concerns?

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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coniunx
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Whenever I get into conversation about whether Christians might soon face (or are already facing) restrictions and unfavourable treatment in the western world, I tend to think 'bring it on'. Maybe some persecution would be good for the body of Christ...

You might be right. When sacramental confession becomes illegal, and we can no longer offer sacramental marriage openly, we'll find out whether we can run underground churches as effectively as the Chinese.

And the Chinese are good at it....

I suspect we'll have fewer people involved, but those that are will be far more committed, and far clearer about what their faith means to them.

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Coniunx

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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There is one thing that the people who bleat on about Europeans "surrendering" to Islam have in common - they are all evil stinking fsacist racist liars. I hope no-one ever does to Hell, but if they do,Melanie Phillips and Mark Steyn and Anders Brevik have to share a cell and listen to the shite that comes out of each others mouths.

And Bruce Bawer? And Theo Van Gogh? And Ayaan Hirsi Ali? These used to be voices crying in the wilderness, but they have more and more company.

If saying I'd prefer neither myself nor anyone I know to make submission (which is what "Islam" means) to that alien faith, especially under duress as is usual, suffices to be called a racist, I'm thinking the easiest thing to do is call your bluff and plead guilty. It beats the alternative.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims (probably not just cultural Muslims, but observant ones) once lived together in harmony and mutual respect in Lahore, for instance. Those days are ending. Other guys are in the saddle now, and they're gonna ride that horse just as hard as they can into power.

I'm just as leery of Christian fanatics in this country-- as Bruce Bawer has been.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Horseman Bree
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fr W: almost everyone has concerns about relationships, whether friendships, partners, workplace or whatever; they have comcerns about being able to support themselves or their families; they have some concern about their government or community in action.

Most of the unchurched have no concern about "what to do on Sunday morning" or liturgical minutiae or the argunent about roofing during the vestry meeting.

Our church is trying to get some action going in dealing with the welfare /working poor crowd, but the bleating during our meetings is always "But what if they don't come to church?", as if we should insist on church attendance by those we aid. The poor (in cash or spirit) can't know about what we do until we offer something they can relate to, and get the chance to talk about what gives us strength.

Same with "back to Church" Sunday. Saying to someone,"come back and do exactly what you did before when you didn't like it and left" isn't going to lead to a parade through the doors. Something different has to be going on or you've lost them for the last time.

Think of someone who can't feed his/her kids because he/she's a wage slave at the level where the money isn't enough to feed one, let alone a family (i.e. the "working poor"). Do you offer a meal for the family or a chance to sit at a prayer meeting? Do you offer daycare/after-school safe place or Morning Prayer from the 1662?

If they do come to a service, do you preach the immorality of common-law partners, or do you preach the Love of God as to be shown by your congregants? Do you make sure to exclude GLBTs (might be catching, y'know) in a society. like mine, that has had SSMs for years?

Are there people in your congo who are simply good listeners, or who are competent fixer-uppers? Is there some time that is NOT service time when people can come in and be part of the community without signing up for the dusting rota?

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It's Not That Simple

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by coniunx:
I suspect we'll have fewer people involved, but those that are will be far more committed, and far clearer about what their faith means to them.

Yes, this is what I was getting at - but also I'm thinking that the faith lived out by these more committed people might be far more attractive than what we have now, in more comfortable times (therefore leading to an increase in the number of people involved).

Of course, I'm speculating, and I do note the cases mentioned upthread where persecution has driven Christians out of an area or a country. It's just that I'm so frustrated by apathy among Christians, apathy which would perhaps be reduced if practising the Christian faith became a bit harder

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Not always. There have been places and times where large Christianit populations have been almost or entirely extinguished, either by persecution or expulsion - the Arabian peninsula and north-west Africa in the early Middle Ages, central Asia and western China in the later Middle Ages, Japan in the 18th century, western Anatolia in the early 20th century, much of Palestine and Iraq in our own lifetimes, possibly Syria next?
Indeed. I was just trying to moderate the apparent glee at the next persecution of the Church. "Let thy congregation escape tribulation" and all that.
This. Perhaps I'm a wuss, but I don't get the "praying for persecution" tendency amongst some Christians. It just seems... wrong, like praying for a serious illness or something. I suspect that if Christians in (say) the UK were persecuted, we'd be shocked at how awful it really is - nothing like the spiritual virility test some seem to see it as.

I also think it's vaguely insulting to those who are suffering persecution.

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Cultural Muslims here aren't much more likely to go to the mosque than cultural Christians are to go to church. We'll see what happens, but I expect that by the fourth generation they'll pretty much be assimilated into general society - the only chance of that not happening is if the widespread anti-Islamic bigotry (itself pretty often a surrogate for increasingly unacceptable racism) pushes immigrant groups together for security - and so bring about the opposite of that what bigots say they want.




The movement goes both ways, I think. Some commentators note that the second generation of Muslims are often more religious than the first. My own experience, living close to predominantly Muslim areas, is not that young Muslims are becoming more 'westernised', if by that we mean entirely indifferent to religion.

Also, it's relevant to note that ongoing immigration from various Muslim countries, as well as the Pakistani custom of seeking spouses 'back home', means that even the second, third and fourth generations are constantly exposed to fresh Muslim influences.

However, in other parts of the country, with different immigration and assimilation patterns, the outcome for young Muslims may will be different.

I agree that in the media there seems to be a heightened degree of anti-Islamic feeling.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
I don't get the "praying for persecution" tendency amongst some Christians. It just seems... wrong, like praying for a serious illness or something. I suspect that if Christians in (say) the UK were persecuted, we'd be shocked at how awful it really is - nothing like the spiritual virility test some seem to see it as.

I think it reveals a certain arrogance amongst those who pray for persecution to come. It's not so much that they want to be at constant risk of torture and death for simply practicing their faith - who in their right mind would ever wish for that? - it's more that they want something to come along and weed out all the other Christians who they see as being wishy-washy liberal types who don't really care about Jesus the way they do.

Of course, they always assume that they would be strong enough to remain faithful. They remind me of Peter at the Last Supper - proudly proclaiming "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will" even though they don't know what's coming. It's easy to assume - and to genuinely believe - that you'll always stay strong when you've not been tested yet, but as Peter found out the time of trial may prove differently.

Nobody should hope for persecution to come upon the Church. They may find that when it does, they are the ones hearing the rooster crow.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I think it reveals a certain arrogance amongst those who pray for persecution to come. It's not so much that they want to be at constant risk of torture and death for simply practicing their faith - who in their right mind would ever wish for that? - it's more that they want something to come along and weed out all the other Christians who they see as being wishy-washy liberal types who don't really care about Jesus the way they do...

Nobody should hope for persecution to come upon the Church. They may find that when it does, they are the ones hearing the rooster crow.

Hmm, guilty as charged, perhaps. I suppose I'm reacting to comments I've heard (in the media and from friends) about Christians being marginalised and having restrictions placed on our faith and practices. Why should we Christians be upset when we lose certain privileges, or when we find it harder to do or say what we want? I mean, opposition can indicate that we are doing something that's actually having an impact, instead of just being an irrelevance that people can ignore if they wish.

But, yes, there is a sense within me of almost welcoming persecution; because it would, I think, force us Christians to decide whether we're really serious about following Jesus. And I have no certainty that I would choose faithfulness in the face of hardship or opposition, no certainty at all...

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...Also, it's relevant to note that ongoing immigration from various Muslim countries, as well as the Pakistani custom of seeking spouses 'back home', means that even the second, third and fourth generations are constantly exposed to fresh Muslim influences...

There is a practice amongst Muslims in many countries, based on authentic hadith(sayings) and sunna (practice) of Muhammad to marry a family member, often a cousin of some degree. Bear in mind some traditional Muslim families are vast. This certainly happens in the Lebanese Sunni Muslim community in Australia and the Punjabi Pakistani Muslim community in the UK. More so then amongst Lebanese Christians or Punjabi Hindus or Sikhs. So there is an extended familial reinforcement amongst certain Muslim communities.

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Well...

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
fr W: almost everyone has concerns about relationships, whether friendships, partners, workplace or whatever; they have comcerns about being able to support themselves or their families; they have some concern about their government or community in action.

Most of the unchurched have no concern about "what to do on Sunday morning" or liturgical minutiae or the argunent about roofing during the vestry meeting.

And yet, if they wish to be part of that church's community, they need to care about those things--at least to some degree.

Community is a two-way street. You give, you get. The trouble with many of the unchurched is that they want to get without understanding what giving is. And related to that, quite often people seem to expect instant relationships, instant community. The reality is that these things build, and that takes some time. It's the job of clergy and congregation alike to extend the hand of goodwill immediately (though God knows both often fail at this), but a relationship just can't be immediately manufactured--it's fake, and sooner or later the newcomer will catch on to that.

In my view, the church's most important job is worship and sacrament. Everything else we do flows from that. If the church is not primarily a community of worshippers, given grace by Baptism and the Eucharist, then it devolves into a vaguely-theistic charitable association. Nice, I'm sure, but if that's what you want why not volunteer for the United Way?

I preach on the lectionary. The sermon is an opportunity to explain difficulties in the lessons, and to let the congregation know what it has to do with them. I have no interest in riding political hobby-horses on either side of the divide.

I don't have any time or interest for quasi-corporate paraphernalia like mission statements, endless committees, position papers and the like. I have seen baby-boomer navel-gazing destroy other churches, laying waste sometimes entire denominations. I don't care about being "relevant"; the Church's job is not to be relevant, but to be constant. We preach the faith once delivered, we dispense the sacraments, and we love God and each other. To shift focus from those things makes us something other than the Church.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Alogon
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Fr. Weber: [Overused]

I'll only add this utter lack of concern with such practical details is par for the course if one harbors the assumption that we become "spiritual" by forgetting about the material. It's a very common opinion partly because it often goes along with a temptation to join an imagined elite.

But institutional life offers particular threats and temptations of its own, as you also appreciate. Life has its messy dilemmas. In this regard, Fr. Reid's blog at S. Clement's celebrates the decision of General Convention that the Presiding Bishop, while in office, shall once again continue as a diocesan, as used to be the case. I'd never heard of this development or ever given the matter a thought. His reasoning is that the necessary duties of P.Bs. do not require a full-time bishop, and that with too much time on their hands they will only conjure up measures that usurp the diocesans, step on their toes, and otherwise be out of touch with the grass-roots life of the church. When they still have their own dioceses to look after, they will better keep their feet on the ground. He predicts that in another twenty or thirty years, this will prove to be a more important act of General Convention than what has garnered all the publicity.

[ 26. July 2012, 19:08: Message edited by: Alogon ]

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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fletcher christian

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Pentecostalism will wax and wane like a great Mexican wave as it moves across the globe. Protestantism will shrink a fair bit as it falls out with itself....again. Catholicism will become like an expanded Talmud which fills an entire room in every faithful Catholics home that lets you know which cornflake producer is moral and therefore edible; or maybe they'll get an app for that. Orthodoxy will be teetering on the edge of extinction as it discovers its canonised way to many lads and now there are no days left on which to eat decent nutritious food. Anglicanism will still be debating whether or not it should bother to actually live up to its calling, Presbyterianism will have completely disappeared after spray on starch has been taken off the shelves forever after a cancer scare and all over the world there will be an horrific shortage of wee cuppies. Meanwhile, people will still stop and wonder.....who was that Jesus lad anyway?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Horseman Bree
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My point to Fr. W was more about getting the attention of the "unchurched" in the first place, so that you can eventually get them to want to come in to the worship.

BUT if you attack this situation as "they're going to come to our church" as the first step, you won't get anyone at all.

You have to preach with your actions first, and then like the apocryphal version of St. Francis, use words later on.

If the worship gives you the strength and focus to do the active preaching, that is probably what it is all about. Mere words do not impress, except maybe negatively.

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It's Not That Simple

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
...

Community is a two-way street. You give, you get. The trouble with many of the unchurched is that they want to get without understanding what giving is. And related to that, quite often people seem to expect instant relationships, instant community. The reality is that these things build, and that takes some time. It's the job of clergy and congregation alike to extend the hand of goodwill immediately (though God knows both often fail at this), but a relationship just can't be immediately manufactured--it's fake, and sooner or later the newcomer will catch on to that.

In my view, the church's most important job is worship and sacrament. Everything else we do flows from that. If the church is not primarily a community of worshippers, given grace by Baptism and the Eucharist, then it devolves into a vaguely-theistic charitable association. Nice, I'm sure, but if that's what you want why not volunteer for the United Way?

...

One of the things that strikes me these days is that many churches don't see the deeper significance of the Eucharist: there is so much going on around it in terms of lengthy (and often irrelevant) intercessions; sharing of the peace and a post communion solo for some favoured person that the deeper meditative element, which should really inform all our worship, is lost.

It is possible to build up a bogus "Christian" community, which basically provides baby sitting or hobby options for people, without touching the depths of what Christianity is about and therefore not being genuinely supportive in quiet worship when it is really needed.

It is not accidental the Orthodox refer to the Eucharist as "the medicine of immortality". Without real focus on the Eucharist and its universal significance I don't think a church can either be alive or give life. There are plenty of dead churches around, and, as you say, they have wonderful mission statements and supposedly great outreach. The problem with places like that is that most people subconsciously understand their lack of genuine spirituality and move on.

I think some discrete churches, of various denominations, may well die, but, long term, the genuine Church will arise from the ashes. I think we are in for a tough time in the West. A time of fairly active pruning and weeding.

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Well...

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