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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "Christian" is not the antonym for "Catholic"
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
(They're now married and both attending the same Anglican parish, where he's preparing for his priestly ordination)
What a very sad end to the story. I remember now why the Catholic Church discourages mixed marriages and requires a dispensation by proper ecclesiastical authority, which may only be granted if there is good reason to believe that it will not be prejudicial the the practice of the Catholic faith of the Catholic party.
I'm sorry, but how is that a sad ending? Two people fell in love, discovered that their seemingly different faiths are actually more similar than they thought and would not be an impediment to a relationship, and are now married. How is that not a happy ending? They are attending an Anglican church, it doesn't mean the woman is no longer Catholic.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm sorry, but how is that a sad ending? Two people fell in love, discovered that their seemingly different faiths are actually more similar than they thought and would not be an impediment to a relationship, and are now married. How is that not a happy ending? They are attending an Anglican church, it doesn't mean the woman is no longer Catholic.
Well, think of a situation where an Anglican and a Hindu married, and the Anglican started practicing Hinduism. The situation here for Roman Catholics is less serious, since in the original case she is at least still practicing Christianity, but at any rate she's "become confused" or what have you.
Though for myself, I would see the situation as less sad and more irresponsible, since I would blame the Anglican party.
[ 06. July 2012, 21:29: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
Well, think of a situation where an Anglican and a Hindu married, and the Anglican started practicing Hinduism.
Bad example. I've known Episcopalians who do this without marrying a Hindu, professing to be both Christian AND Hindu, at the same time.
No, I don't know how the heck that works, either.
[ 06. July 2012, 21:32: Message edited by: Unreformed ]
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Bad example. I've known Episcopalians who do this without marrying a Hindu, professing to be both Christian AND Hindu, at the same time.
No, I don't know how the heck that works, either.
I've known Roman Catholics who do that too. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Bad example. I've known Episcopalians who do this without marrying a Hindu, professing to be both Christian AND Hindu, at the same time.
No, I don't know how the heck that works, either.
I've known Roman Catholics who do that too.
The difference is that the teaching authority of the Catholic Church still takes the first commandment seriously. I can't say the same about the leadership in the certain parts of Anglicanism. A Catholic who worships Vishnu is pretty clearly going against the clear teaching of the Church, and Episcopalian who does it? Who the heck knows anymore? Jack Spong wasn't even a freaking theist and he got elected as a Bishop.
[ 06. July 2012, 21:39: Message edited by: Unreformed ]
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Can't you take your bigotry about Episcopalians elsewhere, Unreformed?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Can't you take your bigotry about Episcopalians elsewhere, Unreformed?
I'll stop but only because I don't want to threadjack this topic. But nothing I said about TEC was remotely slanderous or untrue.
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Bad example. I've known Episcopalians who do this without marrying a Hindu, professing to be both Christian AND Hindu, at the same time.
No, I don't know how the heck that works, either.
I've known Roman Catholics who do that too.
That's 'cos you hang out with Jesuits, Zach.
Enough of this: I was only being deliberately provocative.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Sorry I got all defensive, Trisagion. I blame the internet.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm sorry, but how is that a sad ending? Two people fell in love, discovered that their seemingly different faiths are actually more similar than they thought and would not be an impediment to a relationship, and are now married. How is that not a happy ending? They are attending an Anglican church, it doesn't mean the woman is no longer Catholic.
Well, think of a situation where an Anglican and a Hindu married, and the Anglican started practicing Hinduism. The situation here for Roman Catholics is less serious, since in the original case she is at least still practicing Christianity, but at any rate she's "become confused" or what have you.
Though for myself, I would see the situation as less sad and more irresponsible, since I would blame the Anglican party.
The two are not comparable. All that has happened is that a Christian now worships at a church which is slightly different in style to the one she used to belong to. Anglicans and Catholics are both Christians first and foremost, they are the same religion. Only the externals have changed, and it doesn't affect salvation.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
From a Roman Catholic perspective it is different. For Trisagion, the Roman Catholic Church is the Christian Church founded by Jesus Christ. While Anglicans might be Christians because of their baptisms and have basically the same beliefs as the Roman Catholic Church, they are in schism from the Church and lack the charisms necessary to celebrate the sacraments. This woman has cut herself off from the grace of those sacraments and of the Church.
[ 06. July 2012, 22:13: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
From a Roman Catholic perspective it is different. For Trisagion, the Roman Catholic Church is the Christian Church founded by Jesus Christ. While Anglicans might be Christians because of their baptisms and have basically the same beliefs as the Roman Catholic Church, they are in schism from the Church and lack the charisms necessary to celebrate the sacraments. This woman has cut herself off from the grace of those sacraments and of the Church.
But all that we know is that she attends an Anglican church. For all we know she is still purely Roman Catholic in belief but attends the Anglican church to support her husband. If she is not partaking of Anglican Eucharist, then isn't she still a Catholic? Many people attend Anglican churches without being Anglican.
And I cannot get over the cruelty involved in believing that it would be better for her not to have experienced the joy of marriage because her husband isn't the 'right' sort of Christian. It's the same logic behind honour killings.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
But all that we know is that she attends an Anglican church....
I suppose it's possible she still a Roman Catholic, but it seems more likely she's gone Anglican. Which, I must say, is to her merit. But I would say so. I'm an Anglican.
quote:
And I cannot get over the cruelty involved in believing that it would be better for her not to have experienced the joy of marriage because her husband isn't the 'right' sort of Christian.
Don't lookit me. I agree with the principle. I just have a wider understanding of the Catholic Church than Trisagion.
quote:
It's the same logic behind honour killings.
Is it?
[ 06. July 2012, 22:37: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But all that we know is that she attends an Anglican church. For all we know she is still purely Roman Catholic in belief but attends the Anglican church to support her husband. If she is not partaking of Anglican Eucharist, then isn't she still a Catholic? Many people attend Anglican churches without being Anglican.
As I said above to Zach "Enough of this: I was only being deliberately provocative."
quote:
And I cannot get over the cruelty involved in believing that it would be better for her not to have experienced the joy of marriage because her husband isn't the 'right' sort of Christian.
Spare us the hearts and flowers: that wasn't what was being said, at all. What is sad is that, if she has stopped practising her Catholic Faith then she may have put her mortal soul in danger. That is why the Catholic Church seeks to be sure that a mixed marriage doesn't risk that before permitting it. It's about being really serious about the eternal fate of souls.
quote:
It's the same logic behind honour killings.
What an ignorant, inflammatory and contemptuous little remark. The logic behind honour killings is about familial and tribal authority, about property rights and social class.
[ 06. July 2012, 22:40: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I just have a wider understanding of the Catholic Church than Trisagion.
You say "wider": I say "looser".
You say potato: I say potarto.....let's call the whole thing off. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In Brazil, you'll often hear "Are you Catholic, or are you evangelical?" As if those would be the only options when you're a Christian. To many Brazilians, 'protestant' is a synonym of 'evangelical'.
In Mexico, the terms are "Catholic" and "Christian," but the situation AIUI is pretty much the same as you describe it for Brazil. BTW, both Catholics and Evangelicals there use this terminology, and no insult appears to be implied by it.
--Tom Clune
I should mention that hasn't been my experience so much. In Mexico I've heard people talk about protestantes and evangelicos and atalayas (Jehova's Witnesses, "atalaya" means "watchtower"). I've also heard, "la gente de otra religión" or "the people of another religion".
I've heard some people make that sort of distinction between "Catholic" and "Christian" like that and it's annoying but I don't know any Mexican Catholics who don't actually consider themselves Christian. It's more a habit on the part of many of the Evangelicals in talking about themselves and I do think something is implied by it. It's also a lot of laziness on the part of the media who report on them, particularly some of the entertainment reporters when talking about some high-profile converts, and then laziness and ignorance of regular people repeating it about themselves. I think few countries are so dominated by a single media conglomerate as Mexico is by Televisa.
I have a relative who calls the Evangelicals los aleluyas, I guess because he's heard them say "hallelujah" this and "hallelujah" that a lot.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
But all that we know is that she attends an Anglican church....
I suppose it's possible she still a Roman Catholic, but it seems more likely she's gone Anglican. Which, I must say, is to her merit. But I would say so. I'm an Anglican.
quote:
And I cannot get over the cruelty involved in believing that it would be better for her not to have experienced the joy of marriage because her husband isn't the 'right' sort of Christian.
Don't lookit me. I agree with the principle. I just have a wider understanding of the Catholic Church than Trisagion.
quote:
It's the same logic behind honour killings.
Is it?
The person 'deserves' to die in both cases. The Catholic church just leaves it up to God instead of carrying it out themselves.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But all that we know is that she attends an Anglican church. For all we know she is still purely Roman Catholic in belief but attends the Anglican church to support her husband. If she is not partaking of Anglican Eucharist, then isn't she still a Catholic? Many people attend Anglican churches without being Anglican.
As I said above to Zach "Enough of this: I was only being deliberately provocative."
quote:
And I cannot get over the cruelty involved in believing that it would be better for her not to have experienced the joy of marriage because her husband isn't the 'right' sort of Christian.
Spare us the hearts and flowers: that wasn't what was being said, at all. What is sad is that, if she has stopped practising her Catholic Faith then she may have put her mortal soul in danger. That is why the Catholic Church seeks to be sure that a mixed marriage doesn't risk that before permitting it. It's about being really serious about the eternal fate of souls.
quote:
It's the same logic behind honour killings.
What an ignorant, inflammatory and contemptuous little remark. The logic behind honour killings is about familial and tribal authority, about property rights and social class.
But we do not know if her mortal soul is in danger (even from a Catholic perspective - attending an Anglican church doesn't make one Anglican). Saying that someone's marriage is 'sad' without that context is a cruel remark to make.
And I'm well aware of the reasons behind honour killings, being from a city where they happen. The Catholic attitude seems to be totally in keeping with tribalism and everything else that flows from that, not to mention treating believers like property.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Unreformed
Shipmate
# 17203
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Posted
quote:
The person 'deserves' to die in both cases. The Catholic church just leaves it up to God instead of carrying it out themselves.
Even taking this assertion at face value (which I don't), that's a big, BIG freaking difference right there.
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In the Latin south the enemies of Christianity often make their position clear by burning a church. In the Anglo-Saxon countries, we don't burn churches; we empty them. --Arnold Lunn, The Third Day
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
As far as the the thread is concerned there are a whole bunch of things going on, including poor catechesis, but much of it is for historical reasons. Many Protestant groups did and still don't think Catholics are Christians. After the Reformation Catholics have been a minority persecuted and discriminated against in much of the Anglo-Saxon world and in the U.S.A. the Catholic experience has been tied in to ethnic, racial, and immigration issues. As I pointed out elsewhere on the boards, the Klu Klux Klan was (still is?) against Blacks, Jews, and Catholics. Finally, I think many Catholics have had an inferiority complex in this country. I believe there is such a thing as internalized racism so I have no problem believing there's such a thing as internalized anti-Catholicism as well.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The person 'deserves' to die in both cases. The Catholic church just leaves it up to God instead of carrying it out themselves.
Who says the person deserves to die in the case of a mixed marriage? Not the Catholic Church. Where on earth do you get that idea from?
quote:
But we don't know.....
As I said in the post you quoted, "...if she has...then she may...".
quote:
The Catholic attitude...
Is tha attitude that cares more about the eternal well being of an individual soul than the temporary and temporal idea of romantic love. It's got nothing to do with tribalism or property and everything to do with the Catholic Church's conviction in the uniqueness and unicity of salvation in Jesus Christ and the divinely willed part of the Catholic Church in that plan of salvation. As Zach82 has told you, Catholics don't believe Catholicism and Anglicanism as two equally valid ways of being a Christian. We do believe that the Catholic Church is the a church founded and divinely endowed by Christ, which (despite it's imperfections on this earth and the sinful nature of her members) is the way Christ Himself would have us walk. For all its strengths and witness and without going over the reasons, historical and continuing for that separation, the Anglican Communion is separated from the Catholic Church and that is not a good thing.
I have been married to a non-Catholic for twenty one years and we have three teenage children. Believe me, the single most significant obstacle to living faithfully as a Catholic and the biggest challenge in bringing those children up as good, faithful Catholics has been and is the fact that there is this objective difference at the heart of the family. I prepare perhaps fifteen couples for marriage every year and these days the vast majority are mixed marriages (and an increasing number between Catholics and unbaptised). If the Catholic partner is anything other than a cultural or nominal Catholic, I believe it is terribly important to make them face the cold, hard reality of the road ahead. Refusing to spell this out would be a dereliction of duty to them: to do so because of some soppy, romantic notion about falling in love would only compound my culpability.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
] And Evangelicals are heretics and schismatics to the vast majority of global Christendom, not non-Christians. One of the disadvantages of disallowing these words from polite discourse is that this important distinction disappears.
Which pretty much puts you in the same class as those who don't consider Catholics Christians. When are we going to get over this nonsense? We may disagree on the some doctrinal issues, but if the basics of believing in the the atonement brought by Christ, the Son of God are in place then one is a Christian. The insults from both sides towards the other does nothing for the credibility of Christianity to the unbelieving world.
I was a part of a large international, interdenominational missions organization. There were Catholics, Orthodox, Charismatics, Evangelicals and mainline Protestants and we all got along with unity in Christ even though we pretty much lived and worked together 24/7. That fact alone got people interested Christianity.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unreformed:
Jack Spong wasn't even a freaking theist and he got elected as a Bishop.
Spong went off the rails AFTER he became a bishop.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Evangelicals are heretics and schismatics to the vast majority of global Christendom, not non-Christians. One of the disadvantages of disallowing these words from polite discourse is that this important distinction disappears.
You are quite right to deplore the oversensitivity to the use of that very useful term "heretic" - even its most careful employment is invariably followed by a Pavlovian outburst about "burning people at the stake".
Howver, you are shakier grounds when you attempt to differentiate between the terms heretic and non-Christian, because in many, probably most, cases the former implies the latter.
Fewer and fewer evangelicals are prepared to come out and label RCs as heretics these days, and there are at least two reasons for this.
The first is the realisation that evangelicals and RCs are equally the prime targets of militant, bigotted secularism, hence the emergence of the "co-belligerence" (Schaeffer) or "ecumenism of the trenches" mentality.
The second is ignorance, ie a contemporary unawareness of the nature and importance of the theological differences which divide the two camps.
Having said that, I should point out that there was a real attempt ten or twenty years ago to initiate serious RC/evangelical theological dialogue.
In Evangelicals And Catholics Together, edited by Charles Colson and Richard John Neuhaus (both now dead), Neuhaus wrote in words which I have quoted on the Ship before:
"When I come before the judgment throne, I will plead the promise of God in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I will not plead any work that I have done....I will not plead the merits of Mary or the saints....in seeking entry into that heavenly kingdom, I will plead Christ and Christ alone. Just as I am without one plea/But that thy blood was shed for me/And that Thou biddst me come to Thee/O lamb of God I come, I come".
If every RC were as soteriologically scriptural as that, probably no evangelicals would question their orthodoxy, but Neuhaus, a priest and a Jesuit and an ex-Lutheran, was if not sui generis, certainly untypical,and it is purely obtuse and naive to imagine that there aren't countless other RCs out there who are relying on a some sort of mixture personal decency along with sacerdotal, sacramental jiggery-pokery to win acceptance with God.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Evangelicals are heretics and schismatics to the vast majority of global Christendom, not non-Christians. One of the disadvantages of disallowing these words from polite discourse is that this important distinction disappears.
You are quite right to deplore the oversensitivity to the use of that very useful term "heretic" - even its most careful employment is invariably followed by a Pavlovian outburst about "burning people at the stake".
However, you are shakier grounds when you attempt to differentiate between the terms heretic and non-Christian, because in many, probably most, cases the former implies the latter.
Fewer and fewer evangelicals are prepared to come out and label RCs as heretics these days, and there are at least two reasons for this.
The first is the realisation that evangelicals and RCs are equally the prime targets of militant, bigotted secularism, hence the emergence of the "co-belligerence" (Schaeffer) or "ecumenism of the trenches" mentality, and in fact I have stood shoulder to shoulder with RCs at pro-life demonstrations.
The second is ignorance, ie a contemporary unawareness of the nature and importance of the theological differences which divide the two camps.
Having said that, I should point out that there was a real attempt ten or twenty years ago to initiate serious RC/evangelical theological dialogue.
In Evangelicals And Catholics Together, edited by Charles Colson and Richard John Neuhaus (both now dead), Neuhaus wrote in words which I have quoted on the Ship before:
"When I come before the judgment throne, I will plead the promise of God in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I will not plead any work that I have done....I will not plead the merits of Mary or the saints....in seeking entry into that heavenly kingdom, I will plead Christ and Christ alone. Just as I am without one plea/But that thy blood was shed for me/And that Thou biddst me come to Thee/O lamb of God I come, I come".
If every RC were as soteriologically scriptural as that, probably no evangelicals would question their orthodoxy, but Neuhaus, a priest and a Jesuit and an ex-Lutheran, was if not sui generis, certainly untypical,and it is purely obtuse and naive to imagine that there aren't countless other RCs out there who are relying on a some sort of mixture personal decency along with sacerdotal, sacramental jiggery-pokery to win acceptance with God.
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
As I pointed out elsewhere on the boards, the Klu Klux Klan was (still is?) against Blacks, Jews, and Catholics.
The Klan is it was revived in the 1920s(with few if any membership links to the original 1860s terrorist group) was explicitly focussed on immigration issues, mostly against Catholics. Interestingly, they were most prominent in the northern and western states, and even made slight inroads into western Canada, where they capitalized on the controversy around Catholic schools.
I think the southern Klan revived in the 1950s, in response to desegregation, so the focus would presumably have been more against blacks. As for today, I don't know if the movement amounts to anything more than scattered groups of random white guys, who hate the requisite minorities and like to wear white sheets and burn crosses. I'd imagine their target is mostly blacks, since that's the popular image of who the Klan hates, and anyone claiming to be "klan" at this point in history is basically just aping the popular image.
The KKK in Saskatchewan
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I do recall a black guy being named head of the Klan in my home province of Alberta, around 1979. Whether this group was a remnmant of the earlier western Canadian anti-Catholic Klan, or just a buncha guys who were calling themselves the Klan, I don't know.
The media doesn't really help much in these cases, since articles about these guys always refer to "the Klan", as if it were one centralized group going back to the 1860s. Though I suppose this does fit the agenda of the klansmen themselves, who obviously want to be seen as part of an historically continuous mass movement. (Sorta like the way any group of Sunni Muslims who want to blow things up and issue religious-themed communiques can call themselves Al Qaeda, and count on the media to report their self-designation without much skepticism.)
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Unreformed, I recognise the full authority, whatever that is, of the Catholic Church, just not that of one particular heretical bishopric.
Trisagion, ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
In my experience, the "they're not really Christians" attitude is quite regional. When I lived in Alaska the typical protestant that I knew either didn't believe that Catholics were Christian or would say something along the lines of "well, some maybe are, but it must be so hard in that environment."
Even with all the Orthodox influence there, they were really seen as 'just like those Catholics.'
I found the attitude in New England to be quite different, however, and even remember an Evangelical campus ministry with a Catholic student in leadership! That was where I first heard a balanced explanation of Catholicism, especially with regards to Mary the the saints, Church hierarchy, and capital 'T' Tradition... from a Protestant.
Going into overseas ministry put me in touch with a lot of hard-line Evangelicals that don't consider Catholics or Orthodox to have 'access to the Gospel'. I got into it one time with a guy serving in Poland who claimed there were essentially zero percent Christians in the country. Surprized, I asked what the demographic was?
98% Catholic, with a mixture of other religions making up the remaining 2%.
I about fell off my bar stool. When he told me that he knew a priest wasn't a Christian because he lit up a cigarette after Mass, then I decided there wasn't any use talking with him any more. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I have, however, noticed a much more open and accepting attitude amongst the Turks themselves here. One friend of mine is a major player in the Turkish Evangelical Church (a small association that resembles essentially all the Turkish Protestant churches). He regularly works, fellowships, studies, and prays with Catholic and Orthodox clergy and makes a point of referring to all Christians as 'Kardesler' (siblings).
I had another guy in my home last week who's a nation-wide known figure in the Protestant church. When he saw my icon corner he exclaimed, "How wonderful! You have a small church right in your own home!" ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess in a country that 99% Muslim, you can't be too picky about who you call 'brother'.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Trisagion, my friend, talking of inflammatory remarks: how can a woman who marries outside one culture, one tradition, one heresy in to another have risked her soul ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Trisagion, my friend, talking of inflammatory remarks: how can a woman who marries outside one culture, one tradition, one heresy in to another have risked her soul ?
It's not the marrying but the ceasing to practice her Catholic faith through carelessness which might do that.
"one heresy, in to another". Phooey.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I remember hearing an interview years ago; an English radio journalist questioning two Belfast kids about what it meant to be Roman Catholic and Protestant.
One of the kids asked him, 'which church do you go to?'
The reporter uhmmed and aahed. And then he was asked, 'Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?'
And the other kid, quick as a flash said, 'He's not anything. He's English!'
In my part of Ulster the main categories of Christian I remember were: Protestant, Catholic, Good-Living, interchangeable with Born Again. With regard to being good-living or born again, Baptists were fairly suspect, Methodists less so, Brethren - off the scale.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's all right Trisagion, we KNOW you think that your particular tradition based heresy is THE purest, truest, onliest realliest expression of the bride of Christ.
That is part of its heresy. That's OK.
But you did notice that you fought fire with fire, as you so usually do ? You're not blind to that ?
There is NOTHING in pre-traditional Christianity that would indicate that the woman who married, like you, outside her cult, or her partner, like yours, is in danger of anything.
Of course in your particular post-pre-traditional stream there is.
Hokay.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
"pretraditional Christianity": no such thing.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
quote:
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.
This, of course comes from the Apostolic Creed, the very creed that is used in TEC, Lutheran Churches, Presbyterian Churches, Methodist Churches, the UCC, and a number of other "protestant" churches.
Myself, I am a member of the evangelical catholic church, otherwise known as Lutheran. I have also been an alcohol and drug counselor. Whenever I did an evaluation I made the distinction between the Roman Catholic denomination and other catholic groups.
About the only major difference between the catholic groups now is "What do we do about the Pope?" But even Roman Catholics are grappling with that question now.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
It's not the marrying but the ceasing to practice her Catholic faith through carelessness which might do that.
This might be a silly question, but do you have any evidence that this is the case? Any case histories of lapsed Catholics being damned to eternal torment for not attending Mass regularly? Any serious scriptural justification for people going to Hell for attending a Protestant church? Seriously, Trisagion, do you have anything to back this up apart from convoluted circular logic at the third remove?
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
AIUI, this whole idea springs from Roman ecclesiology. Anything which threatens the connection created by baptism with the RC church and therefore the true body of Christ, threatens the individual even sub specie aeternitatis (under the lens of eternity).
I don't share that ecclesiology - it would be hard to find a sacramentally-based point of view further from my own - but it has a certain consistency, even if I find it excessively zealous, even pitiless.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Forgive the double post, but it has occurred to me that I haven't really specified what I was commenting on in the previous post. I thought I was talking about "mixed" marriages, but I suppose I might also have been commenting on the wider question. I feel, for what it's worth, that the consequences of that ecclesiological understanding are equally far-reaching for a RC view of other Christians, advances in ecumenism notwithstanding. It is hard to see how something essentially detached from the body could ever have its life sustained. As such, Catholic cannot logically be a subset of Christian, at least not if the latter is understood widely. The two terms become co-terminous, except insofar as the second group might include the Eastern Orthodox churches.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Ah HAH IngoB ! Splendid. So by Roman Catholic criteria I'm a heretic, schismatic Christian, but not apostate ?
I feel positively included !
Utter penis envy
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
I came across an organisation called "Setting Captives Free" last year, and did one of their free internet courses. They invited me to join as a "mentor" - but they make this stipulation:
quote:
Note: Finally, we respect your right to believe as you choose, but those in the following religions are not allowed to apply for Mentorship: Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Christian Scientists, 7th day Adventists, or Unitarians. Also, female pastors will be considered on an individual basis.
Then there's a link to the question "why no catholics", which culminates in
quote:
The official Roman Catholic teaching is that I am accursed for what I believe, because I understand and preach the gospel fundamentally differently than they do. I would say the same thing in the other direction.
(I did however lose about 15 kg on their weight-loss programme, so they can't be all bad)
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I think the southern Klan revived in the 1950s, in response to desegregation, so the focus would presumably have been more against blacks. As for today, I don't know if the movement amounts to anything more than scattered groups of random white guys, who hate the requisite minorities and like to wear white sheets and burn crosses. I'd imagine their target is mostly blacks, since that's the popular image of who the Klan hates, and anyone claiming to be "klan" at this point in history is basically just aping the popular image.
The KKK in Saskatchewan
While they still have animosity towards blacks, their prime focus today is Latinos and with the anti-illegal immigrant mood in the country and sadly they've gained membership and support.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There certainly is Trisagion and you know EXACTLY what I mean. Unless you need a capital tee.
The Tradition of Rome. Or Constaninople to a lesser extent. Mandatory Traditions which are not biblically or Spiritually mandated.
Starting with the heresy of Traditional Petrine Supremacy for which there is no Biblical precedent beyond one of Jesus' typical oracular sayings. There is no biblical or historical evidence whatsoever for Peter ever leaving the Levant and the case against is easily made.
That you HAVE to believe it and declare me heretic for not is ... heretic.
Now that we're all relaxed about the term.
My tradition is OLDER than yours. So yes, we protest that, we protest that we are in fact, in that regard, as in many others, closer to the faith once delivered.
We are considerably more traditional than yow.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry Kaplan, but you're talking bollocks. I've been accused of being an 'evangelical schismatic' a few times, but no RC or Orthodox I've ever come across has treated me anything than as a Christian and a brother in Christ - ok, so I wouldn't be allowed to take communion but I understand that ...
So your comments are a bit wide of the mark and reflect your own prejudices rather than what you consider to be other people's ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There certainly is Trisagion and you know EXACTLY what I mean. Unless you need a capital tee.
The Tradition of Rome. Or Constaninople to a lesser extent. Mandatory Traditions which are not biblically or Spiritually mandated.
Starting with the heresy of Traditional Petrine Supremacy for which there is no Biblical precedent beyond one of Jesus' typical oracular sayings. There is no biblical or historical evidence whatsoever for Peter ever leaving the Levant and the case against is easily made.
That you HAVE to believe it and declare me heretic for not is ... heretic.
Now that we're all relaxed about the term.
My tradition is OLDER than yours. So yes, we protest that, we protest that we are in fact, in that regard, as in many others, closer to the faith once delivered.
We are considerably more traditional than yow.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Cedd
Shipmate
# 8436
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Posted
Not a Pond difference, unfortunately.
I once went into a well known chain of Christian bookshops in London and heard someone ask for a particular book. The lady behind the counter said they did not have it and could not get it. When asked why not, she replied "because the author is Catholic."
On closer inspection of the said bookshop I found lots of books about Catholicism, in the 'cult' section and not too far from the 'occult' section.
That chain obviously felt that Catholic was an antonym of Christian and I never went back to it.
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Cedd
Churchmanship: This week I am mostly an evangelical, catholic, orthodox with both liberal and illiberal tendancies. Terms and conditions apply.
Posts: 377 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Sorry Kaplan, but you're talking bollocks. I've been accused of being an 'evangelical schismatic' a few times, but no RC or Orthodox I've ever come across has treated me anything than as a Christian and a brother in Christ - ok, so I wouldn't be allowed to take communion but I understand that ...
Bit of a tangential observation...
Having spent a lot of time in religious bookstores, I have to say that, while protestants seem to have a thriving sub-genre of books demonstrating that the RCC is the Whore Of Babylon, the survival of mystery cults, or otherwise apostate, you don't really seem to get the same thing going in the other direction.
Catholic bookstores will have titles like "Why the Catholic Church should be your true spiritual home", but nothing like "Martin Luther: Antichrist 666" or "Calvinism: Pathway To Hellfire". To the extent that supposedly heretical ideas are dealt with, it's usually just a matter of pointing out politely, if tersely, in what way their adherents are in error, and showing that how the RCC is correct.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
In my work as a chaplain to poor and working class men in recovery from drug and alcohol abuse, I frequently hear things along the following lines: quote:
- Are you Christian or are you Catholic?
- I was raised Catholic, but now I'm Christian.
- I used to be Catholic, but now I'm saved.
What makes this so weird is that we are located in a small, old, down-at-the-heels industrial city that was formerly immigrant Catholic right down to its little cotton socks.
It's true that the outreach group from the local, bible-believing Gospel Hall, who come one night a week, preach quite frankly that Catholics are going to hell, but that one outpost of fundamentalism can't account for all of it.
So my questions are these:
- Am I right to take an oblique tack and merely reply to #1, "Oh, I'm Christian and catholic" and then move the conversation on?
- Is this a pond difference? Is there this calculated, sustained, and slanderous attack made on Catholics only in the US?
- Is there a regional aspect to this even in the US? A concerted anti-Catholic "evangelizing" effort in Catholic redoubts?
Ought I sally forth occasionally and denounce the idea that Catholics are not Christian? - How else might I consider treating this egregious belief?
- Is it really that egregious?
1) Good answer to question #1.
2) Likely the Gospel Hall is promoting the "Catholics aren't <real> Christians" idea. It was certainly a common enough attitude when I was "in" conservative evangelicalism myself, and was the trigger for me to finally hightail it out of there, because I was hanging out with some wonderful Catholic Christians at the time.
I don't think it's either useful or productive to get in a "Is! Is Not!" slapfight with the other group. Whatever you can do in context to drop in/build up positive references to the idea that Catholics are Christians too should be fine. Some of the men may not have considered it's not a zero sum game; one of the things you can do as a mentor and friend to them is to gently steer them away from that notion.
Blessings on you and your work!
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
Not a Pond difference, unfortunately.
I once went into a well known chain of Christian bookshops in London and heard someone ask for a particular book. The lady behind the counter said they did not have it and could not get it. When asked why not, she replied "because the author is Catholic."
On closer inspection of the said bookshop I found lots of books about Catholicism, in the 'cult' section and not too far from the 'occult' section.
That chain obviously felt that Catholic was an antonym of Christian and I never went back to it.
It used to be not uncommon to find Jack Chick(pond tranlation: Ian Paisley) comics for sale in Christian bookstores in Canada. Presumably, a store selling those would not want to also be stocking books by Catholic writers.
Though I do remember a CATHOLIC-OWNED bookstore in my neighbourhood mall, which sold Chick. I don't think the owners had read the comics.
Another, protestant-owned store, also near my home, sold Chick material. When I inquired as to why they were stocking anti-Catholic propaganda, the clerk said "We want to get both sides of the story."
I guess you do need to hear all angles of the "Is the Pope planning to murder all protestants?" debate.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Evangelical Christianity has always been very suspicious of any who might simply be going along to church for form's sake. In the past, this suspicion has been directed very much at mainstream Protestant Christians, often of the same denomination. This of course was at a time when the vast majority of people went to church on a Sunday, and where church attendance was equated with respectability and social conformity.
For Evangelicals, this was not enough to make you a Christian - and on the whole, I think this is to their credit. They retaught the mainstream Protestants that faith is self-involving, and that it ought to make a difference to your whole life, and not just to your Sunday routine. Whether or not one has had a 'born again' experience, an Evangelical would nevertheless look for an experiential 'heart faith' in Jesus in anyone claiming to be a Christian.
Now that society has gone all secular, this is less of an issue with mainstream Protestant churches. It is fairly safe to assume these days in the UK that a church-goer has a self-involving faith of some description.
That's a fair description. I think most evangelicals would agree, or have agreed, with the first part, and that the increasing unpopularity of Christianity is changing those attitudes.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In the evangelicalism in which I grew up, it was more or less axiomatic that Roman Catholics were not Christians, because they were depending on a mixture of sacraments and good works for their salvation, insread of trusting entirely in God's grace as manifested in Christ's life, death and resurrection.
Some, yes. I think it was or is more common to agree that Roman Catholics can be Christians but that just being a member of the Roman Catholic Church does not make someone a Christian. And that the "mixture of sacraments and good works" was dangerous because it allowed people to think they were Christians when they weren't.
quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
The term that was bandied about in my old CofE church by some evangelicals was 'nominal Christians' who weren't actually Christians at all.
"Nominal Christian" sounds a very appropriate term for someone who would call themselves a Christian in response to a census question, but is not an active member of any Christian church, and does not hold any distinctive Christian beliefs.
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Mind you, explaining what Anglo-Catholicism is to members of the secular majority has always been a nearly impossible task in my experience.
Impossible to explain it to most Anglicans I would imagine!
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So by Roman Catholic criteria I'm a heretic, schismatic Christian, but not apostate?
That would seem to be the case if you read their RC Catechism and take it as a fair summary of their rules.
Of course by our standards they are the schismatics - its a relative term ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
When he saw my icon corner he exclaimed, "How wonderful! You have a small church right in your own home!"
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
...Jack Chick(pond tranlation: Ian Paisley)...
Not at all! Chick is a much better cartoonist than Paisley, and a much worse anti-Catholic bigot.
Anyway, we get Chick tracts over here as well.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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