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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Parents, personality disorders and the fifth commandment
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I read the following article woman cuts off contact with mother in The Guardian.
It made me think - precisely what responsibilities do children have towards parents with incurable mental problems like narcissism, sociopathy etc in light of the commandment to obey our parents? What can society *do* with people like this? What would ministry to sociopaths look like, and is it even possible?
My biological father is, I suspect, an undiagnosed narcissist and it causes me no end of guilt that I am sinning by having no contact with him (it was actually his choice to cut me off).
[ 07. August 2012, 06:37: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
to the "sin" aspect: I truly don't believe that putting up with abusive bullshit is what the commandment means. "honor" does not mean obey. it doesn't mean slavishly do whatever they want you to do. it means treat with general respect and respect what they have given you. if all that comes out to is life, okay - respect that. it's a lot. Honor that gift. but you can honor it from a safe distance.
Sometimes the only way you can be respectful is by avoiding contact. I have this with my sister. whenever we communicate, the worst comes out in me and I want to resort to verbal abuse - okay, I'll be honest, I want to punch her in the teeth. hard. with a truck. But I can't do this - in part because it would hurt my father to see this go on, but much more importantly, it would turn me into someone I don't want to be.
The only way to avoid this is to stay the hell out of her circle of insanity. for the record, the narcissism described in the article - and further in the comments - fits my sister to a T. only add a healthy dash of hypochondria so that if we don't feel the proper pity we're the ones being selfish and horrible.
The bummer for me is that in my situation, my father is the enabler and therefore cutting off contact with her means I need to limit contact with him. It sucks because he's a great guy, he's just so owned by these crazy feelings of guilt - somehow her always suffering is his fault.
on another level - if you kowtow to the crazymakers, they influence you. you either become a crazymaker yourself, or you only know how to interact with those kind of people. it's continuing the problem; spreading the disease. you owe it to yourself, first and foremost, and society as a whole, not to put up with that bullshit.
PS - thank you for the article link. it gave me a lot to think about.
[ 05. August 2012, 01:06: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
What comet said.
It seems to me that "honoring" your parents means first and foremost seeing to it that they have the basic necessities of life. That is, making sure they don't starve to death, die of no heat in the winter, etc. (provided you can actually do something to prevent it--even this may be impossible with certain types of mental illness or substance abuse).
Second, honoring one's parents means not letting them get away with shit that is going to turn them into less human beings. In other words, if they are narcissists, whiners, hypochondriacs, alcoholics, abusers, whatever, doing your damndest not to feed that particular spiritual cancer. Because it will only continue to rob their humanity from them, piece by piece by piece--and you shouldn't enable people to become less human, less decent, even if they want to. Particularly if they want to.
Which means: if YOU are the fuel to their sick fire, you will need to remove yourself from their vicinity to truly honor them. Sorry, but it's true. To willingly stick around as somebody else's chew toy is not only harmful to you but to them. Don't assist them in committing spiritual suicide. Pray for them from a distance, and if the need arises, you can arrange care from a distance (e.g. groceries, etc.) But don't let misplaced guilt push you back into a situation that harms both of you--them perhaps even more, since they are getting pleasure out of it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Because it will only continue to rob their humanity from them, piece by piece by piece--and you shouldn't enable people to become less human, less decent, even if they want to.
Just as importantly: it will do that to YOU, too! (Whoever you are.) And I doubt that God wants you messed up.
I come from a crappy, abusive, severely messed up family. They've never forgiven me for being the one who escaped the family system. There were times when, by my choice, I had little or no contact. When I was at a point (therapy, meds, personal strength) where I could try again, wanted to try again, and chose to try again...they variously kept pulling the same twisted crap, and/or taking a year or two (or never) to reply to my caring letters and cards, and/or shut me out--to the point of dropping me out of the loop about a death in the family. I loved them. They generally either didn't love me, or did so in a twisted way. And they think I ruined lives, simply by existing and needing care. Barring an outbreak of Damascus Road epiphanies, they're not going to get better in this life.
So...I've done all I can. (Trust me on that. Lots and lots of stuff. Please don't make any suggestions.) The truth is, I just don't have a family.
But it would be worse if I had that family.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for everyone dealing with this stuff.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
As others have said, honouring your parents doesn't mean allowing them to dishonour you. Relationship requires both give and take. If one takes without giving, it's not a relationship. We may choose to continue to give in the knowledge that we won't receive, but if doing so is harmful, to them or to us, we must refrain and simply pray for them.
This is our model as Christians: to give and receive love from God, which we are able to share with the whole human family, not only our parents. Ministry to everyone looks like love, sometimes tough love.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Where does self-centeredness end and narcissism begin? I realy don't know, but I can certainly feel for the woman in the article. I used to spend my annual vacation at my parents house because (a) I couldn't afford a real holiday anyway and (b) they always expected it because I didn't live close enough to visit at other times. I would count the minutes. They each actually prepared lists of things they wanted to show me and talk about so that no moment of my audience would be wasted. They had zero interest in me or my son (their only grand child.)
On one of those vists, at the end of the week, while we were eating out, someone who knew us stopped at our table and asked me a question. Until then they had not noticed that I had severe laryngitis and coundn't speak a word.
My husband's visits to his parents went about the same way. So are they all spiritually or mentally ill or just self-involved through age and isolation?
My parents gave me life and a very nice, safe childhood so I try not to dwell too much on the damage they did to my self-esteem over the years -- although I do bear grudges. That's another thing -- the guilt you feel for anger that lasts after their death.
I would think that the after effects are a good gauge as to whether or not to cut off all contact. I was usually depressed by the time I went home but could shake it off after a few weeks back at the job. If the feelings of anger and worthlessness hang on after every visit, or if the parents won't tolerate infrequent visits then I think self-preservation probably does call for a "divorce."
One brother did cut off all contact and didn't look back over fifty years. The other brother did that for a couple of years but he and his wife came through in the end as the main caretakers for all the rides to the doctor, daily crisis management and financial help that old people need. Now that's what I call "honoring your father and mother," in the best sense.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
This is all interesting - I'm at a transitional stage with my mother who has admitted to me that she sat back and allowed my sister to bully me throughout childhood as she didn't want to upset my sister's confidence. That's the nutshell veresion. She sold me short as a child, she continues to sell me short as an adult and I'm driven forward to maintaining the contact by guilt alone. For other reasons, I've never formed a functional relationship as I've never believed I've been good enough, she's always encouraged me to believe in my wrongness and to doubt my actions, behaviour, beliefs, world, and so on.
To break away from a parent requires a huge confidence and despite everything, despite my wild anger of her, I can't see myself breaking away from her. What I would like to do is learn how to manage the relationship so she respects me. I fear I'm too late.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
I'm at a transitional stage with my mother who has admitted to me that she sat back and allowed my sister to bully me throughout childhood as she didn't want to upset my sister's confidence.
Wow. It's things like this that make me feel bad for complaining. Are you male or female, Beenster? I ask because I've seen quite a few boys thrown under the bus in the name of their sisters' empowerment.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
comet: quote:
I have this with my sister. whenever we communicate, the worst comes out in me and I want to resort to verbal abuse - okay, I'll be honest, I want to punch her in the teeth. hard. with a truck. But I can't do this - in part because it would hurt my father to see this go on, but much more importantly, it would turn me into someone I don't want to be.
This is weird comet - change "father" to "mother" and this describes me exactly. I struggle on with my sister because it means so much to my mother. When she dies (and, please God, that will not be for many years yet) I can't imagine my sister and I will stay in touch.
And for all of us struggling with old wounds because of our fucking families!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
I'm at a transitional stage with my mother who has admitted to me that she sat back and allowed my sister to bully me throughout childhood as she didn't want to upset my sister's confidence.
Wow. It's things like this that make me feel bad for complaining. Are you male or female, Beenster? I ask because I've seen quite a few boys thrown under the bus in the name of their sisters' empowerment.
Twighlight - I'm very very female! There's more, I'm awakening myself to the fact that she was and still is abusive. A master manipulator, she wields her fragility with the utmost power, cunning and drive - consciously or subsconciously.
But. She gave me life. She carried me for 9 months, she fed me, she clothed me, she kept me clean, she fetched and carried for me when I was small. I am grateful but I'm not in debt - although she would have me as some Jane Austen spinster character - you know the one - the one with the unimportant life so can look after the old in her adage.
It's transitional tho at the moment. My father died just under 2 months ago - and whilst I would love to walk away from her and there will never be a "good" time - this certainly isn't the right time to ditch the ma.
It's a very very long game and I don't want regrets whatever my course of action.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
When she (=mother) dies (and, please God, that will not be for many years yet) I can't imagine my sister and I will stay in touch.
Exactly. I have stupid relatives who keep banging on at me to get along with my siblings but why? I play the party game because otherwise it upsets my mother, but we have different value sets and hell, we don't like each other.
I am of course a saint in this scenario and have done nothing wrong. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
I am of course a saint in this scenario and have done nothing wrong.
Absolutely. That's true for all shipmates in family situations. I vote we put that at the top of the thread and tell more stories.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
Wow...and what has been said above by more eloquent (and awake) folks.
This particular issue is a fairly big sticking point between my husband and I.
My bio-father and I had no contact for the last 5 years of his life. This kept me sane and most likely out of prison. He was NOT a good person, had major addiction issues, was physically and mentally abusive towards his family, and was severely depressed and completely self centered. I mattered to him only as a reflection of himself and since I didn't reflect back what he wanted to see, he had very little use for me except as a dumping ground for all his poisonous shit. My mother and I have an even more complicated and painful relationship. She too has major addiction proplems and has put me through hell. I have minimal contact with her.
I am a saner, healthier person because of the decisions I made to put both emotional and physical distance between these two people.
My husband, good old Southern boy that he is, cannot understand how or sometimes even why, I have made these choices. Even though he knows most of the story he still clings to the idea that honoring one's father and mother means being a physical and emotional doormat for the giant truck loads of crap that parents (including HIS parents) sometimes decide to inflict on their children.
I do not honor my parents by allowing anyone, including them, to hurt, abuse, injure, degrade or damage me. I do not honor my parents by being sucked into a whirlpool of destruction caused by addiction or mental illness. I do honor them by being a strong enough person to distance myself from situations that will cause me harm, whether physical or emotional.
IMO, "honor" does not mean "love", heck it doesn't even mean "like".
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
My question was actually aimed more at the practicalities of ministering to those with such personality disorders, and whether this is even possible - but thanks so much to everyone for your kind and very moving replies.
I read an otherwise good Christian counselling website which mentioned sociopaths being 'the wicked' who God will destroy. Now, I am not a Calvinist and so I do have a little trouble understanding this. Sociopathy, for all its apparent permanence, is still as involuntary as autism. No one chooses to be a sociopath. So, therefore, does that mean people with serious personality disorders which make them act in an unchristian, even evil way, are totally beyond ministry? Is there ever such a thing as a group of people that is impossible to evangelise? If so, why did God make them this way? Why DID God make sociopaths?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I read an otherwise good Christian counselling website which mentioned sociopaths being 'the wicked' who God will destroy. Now, I am not a Calvinist and so I do have a little trouble understanding this. Sociopathy, for all its apparent permanence, is still as involuntary as autism. No one chooses to be a sociopath. So, therefore, does that mean people with serious personality disorders which make them act in an unchristian, even evil way, are totally beyond ministry? Is there ever such a thing as a group of people that is impossible to evangelise? If so, why did God make them this way? Why DID God make sociopaths?
Is it as involuntary as autism? You're assuming that people are born that way, but it could be that it's learned behaviour. We all learn how to cope as children, and take this learned behaviour into adulthood. The way we are treated as children affects the rest of our lives.
I think that it's possible for everyone to come to God through Christ, without exception. We all have harmful tendencies to overcome.
By observation, simply offering love to a 'taker' often results in failure, as the taker will want ever more, and will manipulate the giver. Loving a taker is more likely to take the shape of standing firm, and may be easier for a stranger than a family member.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Is there ever such a thing as a group of people that is impossible to evangelise? If so, why did God make them this way? Why DID God make sociopaths?
This is an excellent question. Ever since I had a damaging five years with a sociopath (as my boss) I have contemplated it.
Whatever is missing in them seems to be permanently missing. But did God make them that way? I think not. This lack of empathy seems to be biological/neurological. God allowed evolution and, somehow, this trait got through.
One thing I do know - the world would be a very different plsace if there were no such thing as sociopaths and psychpaths. If every person had empathy and was able to 'do unto others' we would hardly need laws.
As it is I imagine that the only answer is awareness - that sociopaths are often charmers and we need to be very wary before we trust people.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
I'm also in a period of no contact with my mother.
She is a very subtle manipulator who has a reality distortion field around her, who plays family members off against each other, masterfully plays the victim when she is nothing of the sort, bullies, lies, shuns and 'nothings' people she wants to excise from the family, rewrites history and never apologises or admits to anything without scapegoating someone else. Her dysfunction extends to embrace and corrupt others in the family who are loyal to her. The scary thing is that she presents herself as the most well adjusted and dutiful person in the family, always putting up with everyone else and trying hard to keep the peace.
With people like that you are never done having to fight with them, just to get normal behaviour. Just when you think they've settled down, it might be two weeks or two years, but sooner or later more bullshit will happen. It's never done. It seems like there are others on this site who understand - many who've never experienced families remotely like this do not understand.
I realised I need a timeout, of months and realistically years, to get myself to a point where I am healthy, and can have contact with her without getting sucked into unhealthy dramas. Or perhaps, as I suspect, I will eventually have to throw in the towel. I realised I did not want my daughter to get the message that enabling people like this and pretending they are normal is what we do, just because we are family. I realised that I had NO obligation to have contact with someone who has behaved abusively and disrespectfully towards me, repeatedly, over many years.
As for the commandment - many things in the bible are about general circumstances, not extreme dysfunction. It's a commandment not to be a dick to your parents. Simple. We also have the obligation to not leave our parents destitute in their old age. Also - to honour means not to be a discredit to them by living a dishourable life. If I live well, I honour them.
There are many verses in the bible about leaving family, including father and mother, to prefer God, and about separating yourself from evil doers so you don't pick up their ways.
To the OP - I don't think you need feel any guilt. That's not from God, it's the guilt you've been conditioned to feel, chronically, by an abusive parent. You may find this site helpful http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.co.uk/
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Many people who work with sociopaths...or who volunteer with the same....extend that care to ministry. It's tough, it's draining and it requires those people to be in supervision to ensure their minds are not messed with as well.
But to ask the families of those very same people to be involved ....is an ask too far.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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WhateverTheySay
Shipmate
# 16598
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Posted
I had to get out of my family, for both my safety and my sanity. I had to make it that I was nowhere near them and having no contact with them. I can honestly say that I would be happy never to see them again. They can get on with their lives whilst I get on with mine.
What I really think of them is probably far too Hellish for Purg. But one of my parents wouldn't even acknowledge my existence unless they wanted something or were angry, and the other would control me endlessly and walk all over my personal boundaries (something that got a lot worse as I got older and more independent). They both would always put me down, focussing on my negative points and ignoring my positive points.
I have never been respected by these jerks, and I have a lot of trouble respecting them. One of the reasons my self esteem is so low is because I'm related to them (some sort of transference?).
But the story is completely different with my friends. It is my friends and not my family who I prioritise. It is my friends who I respect and care about and love (in the friendship sense, not romantic love). For me my friends are the family I have chosen. Egg donor and sperm donor are nothing more than that to me.
I believe that we all should do what is right for us. I find it easier to live with Christian values when my family are not a part of my life.
to all who are having trouble with their families.
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I'm not lost, I just don't know where I am going
Posts: 872 | From: Lost in Space, without a map | Registered: Aug 2011
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My question was actually aimed more at the practicalities of ministering to those with such personality disorders, and whether this is even possible
Yes it is possible, but it isn't to be undertaken lightly. Boundaries, team working and supervision are vital. It is hard for professionals and as the stories on this thread show, very hard for families.
[ 05. August 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Poppy ]
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Hmmm. Abusive background here and I took myself along to church as a kid to hear that I should honour my parents and it certainly has been a bit of a mindfuck that still plays in my head. I learnt "turn the other cheek" and wouldn't defend myself at all when my brother was violent. In my situation I could have done with support rather than enouragement to be a victim.
I really struggle now. Mother spent most of last year accusing me of killing babies, wouldn't acknowledge my own pregnancy or birth, over the years there have been repeated abusive calls, texts, letters, etc etc BUT she is bi-polar, often loses touch with reality, is an alcoholic and even when well has to be very self centred to survive. My background is abusive but none of my family acknowledge this now, its tip toed around. I can't not be there for my mum though, she is vulnerable. It's so hard.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
I could add my own stories... but I've had a thought,and I just want to toss it out there:
If (say) you have a family member who is extremely narcissistic, or a borderline personality, or is alcoholic, or prone to weird rages, or extremely impulsive, or can't handle money, or can't seem to make a living, or compulsively cheats on his/her spouse -- not that I'm saying I have all of these in my own family, but in the extended family I could find examples of most of them--
Then you could spend a lot of your life wondering if you were the same kind of person, if you had "that" in you, too, and would it come out, or is it coming out and you don't realize it, or if you had kids, whether they'd be "like that," so maybe you shouldn't have kids...all of which can make your own life very unhappy-- or perhaps, as Comet said, you go on interacting with people who are "like that" even after you have a choice, because that's all you know.
I wonder if "honor" could mean something like this: consider how life looks to them, pray for them, and let them be. So then the fear of being "like that" can go away and one can lead one's own, autonomous life, and, if need be,interact with them from that autonomous position.
Just ramblings, sorry if they aren't useful, but I hope they are.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
I am of course a saint in this scenario and have done nothing wrong.
Absolutely. That's true for all shipmates in family situations. I vote we put that at the top of the thread and tell more stories.
I think the sense if humour shown by Beenster and Twilight here is an important part of coping with disordered members of our families. However, I am already aware that - even with all its problems - my family is not as difficult to deal with as many others.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
There are cases where you are simply too close to be able to help effectvely. IMHO one of these times is when you're close kin to a person with a major personality disorder. It's for the same reason surgeons won't operate on their own family. You're too involved, they won't listen to you, and you can't be objective. Even if you were a trained shrink you shouldn't try to treat your own family--how much less if you're not.
All you can do is pray, urge treatment (haha) and protect yourself. And your kids, if any.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
From the OP:
quote:
precisely what responsibilities do children have towards parents with incurable mental problems like narcissism, sociopathy etc in light of the commandment to obey our parents?
Can I pose a further question? If someone (A) has a spouse (B) with a personality disorder, but A is committed to the "in sickness and in health" part of their marriage vows, what does A do when it becomes obvious that the home environment is toxic to the child of the marriage (C)?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
From the OP:
Can I pose a further question? If someone (A) has a spouse (B) with a personality disorder, but A is committed to the "in sickness and in health" part of their marriage vows, what does A do when it becomes obvious that the home environment is toxic to the child of the marriage (C)?
Depends just how committed to it they are.
I would do what's right for the child - just as one would have to if they (or you) were in physical danger.
Surely those promises are not chains?
<code>
[ 06. August 2012, 06:58: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks, Boogie. Perhaps I should re-phrase a bit. Those of you who follow the prayer thread might already have been kind enough to pray for my requests for prayer for "my wider family." Specifically, on 13 July I posted on the Prayer thread
quote:
For a private intention regarding my wider family; that I can see some way of acting in a positive way.
Now I see that there is a thread devoted to personality disorders / families and there is a whole threadful of wise shipmates who can give practical advice.
I don't want to get too specific (I'm not A, B, or C), but I'd be very interested to learn more about the impact on a child of having a parent with a personality disorder.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I think its a really tricky one.
A lot would depend I guess on whether that person was seeking help and/or aware of their problems.
I have quite a lot of "issues" as a result of my childhood - not having a parent able to parent does really mess with development BUT being fostered would have caused a whole other set of issues. In my case at one point boarding school was an option which would have suited me.
If someone was a parent with issues, but aware of them and trying to make provision for the child to cope then that would be a completely different situation to one like mine (rather abusive).
I think one thing I would always advise would be someone "safe" that a child can talk to, and know they can moan about mummy/daddy or talk to if there is danger, can talk to about school/other things if parent isn't being helpful etc. etc.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
I have quite a lot of "issues" as a result of my childhood - not having a parent able to parent does really mess with development BUT being fostered would have caused a whole other set of issues. In my case at one point boarding school was an option which would have suited me.
Ditto. But I also believe that I have qualities that would not have manifested themselves had I not had the difficulties I have been presented with as a child. The fact that I have just been awakened to the whole sad truth is one thing and I can start to seek and rely on the qualities and really grasp them and know them - well better late than never. The fact is, screwed up or what - i would not be the person I am without the shitty history. I'm not sure that that's a good thing but hey.
NEQ: no rules on this one. The extent and nature of the personality disorder is a factor I would say and also the awareness of the disorder. No answers I'm afraid and I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had lousy parenting but have grown up to be happy adults. I hope you have a trusted and wise real life support group who can fully grasp the reality you are dealing with and help you all discover a workable solution. Don't rely on your own judgement.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
(PS Beenster - its been years since we met (Oxford meet wasn't it?) looks like we have even more in common then!)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
At university we had a Bible studies lecturer who suggested we read biblical family stories such as the Return of the Prodigal Son with a copy of Sophocles' Oedipus at hand, so as not to lose out on other ancient texts pertaining to more dire family dynamics!
In my own family we resorted to a common tactic -- and I see it mentioned here in several posts -- of 'cut off and distance' which at the time helped defuse the tensions and eased the anxiety of proximity and recurring patterns of acting out or conflict.
The problem with this dynamic of course is that nothing gets resolved, just frozen in place -- so when I do have contact with siblings, we interact as if we were still children trapped in our family of origin and nothing has changed. What has helped me understand and begin to work through this stalemate was learning that the core difficulty is not that a family member may have a personality disorder or substance dependency, but the ongoing state of 'narcissistic enmeshment' in which I am complicit and which is not resolved by just distancing. That enmeshment is what needs to be addressed in interactions, finding a new script that does more than just protect one from the intrusive or aggressive family member.
Not easy.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I remember telling my mother that there was a misprint in her bible. The commandment was actually, " Humour your father and your mother".
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am not claiming abusive family, but I have dealt with a situation where there was/is someone with major mental disorder.
There is one rule. Make sure you as an individual stay in contact with reality, because in dealing with a person who has that sort of mental illness, has the power to distort you own sense of reality. Practically that implies two things, creating a confidential space where you can dump to someone NOT involved and doing things with others who are not directly involved regularly.
It, of course, does not tell you how to handle the situation but it does preserve your own locus of control which you need to handle such situations effectively.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If someone (A) has a spouse (B) with a personality disorder, but A is committed to the "in sickness and in health" part of their marriage vows, what does A do when it becomes obvious that the home environment is toxic to the child of the marriage (C)?
I was (A) once upon a time. unfortunately, I didn't realize how bad it was until damage had been done. but once I saw it, I got the hell out and took the (C)s with me.
I'm a mother first. before I am anything else. It is my duty to protect my children. THE most sacred duty. when that "sickness" is harming them, all bets are off.
He's lucky he got out alive.
(for the record, in this case, (B) was diagnosed after our divorce as a sociopath. I have the court papers to prove it. sadly.)
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There are three stories of severe family breakdown in my near family, so I'm following this thread closely. Thanks to all who are brave enough to tell their stories.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I too was once in a position where a violently mentally ill person to whom I was closely bound (not saying in what relationship, confidentiality issues) began to menace a child I was responsible for. I too got the hell out.
Responsibility for children, the disabled, and those who cannot care for themselves always supercedes responsibility to abusers, no matter where they fall in the family spectrum.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
Just ramblings, sorry if they aren't useful, but I hope they are.
Yes, they are.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
As someone who experienced a miserable and emotionally abusive childhood, thanks to several factors including parental mental illness (though not a personality disorder), I have had this subject nagging in the back of my mind over many years.
I endorse the preceding posts in this thread, especially the posts by Comet and Bess Higgs, though I wouldn’t want to lessen the value of others by picking out those two. In reading the article linked from the OP and subsequent comments, the one phrase that stood out to me as worth quoting was ‘...cutting toxic relationships from your life is the sign of a healthy mind...’. And caring for your own health is not selfish. On the contrary, it is honouring to God to remove from your life whatever is causing ill-health in it – whether that is physical ill-health (caused by the toxic influence of drugs, overeating, smoking, etc) or emotional/mental ill-health (caused by the toxic influence of screwed-up people).
I’m probably repeating points made already, but one can at least honour ones parents by being grateful for the gift of life in the sense of biological existence (though I have often struggled to do even that); even though having ones parents involved in ones life (in the sense of day-by-day activity) is intolerably unpleasant. If the effect of having ones parents involved in ones life causes harm, then to allow that would bring shame on them, because it would show them up to be the offspring-damaging people that they can be. Removing this opportunity for them to cause harm thus avoids the opportunity for them to bring shame on themselves. Admittedly, the avoidance of causing shame is hardly the same as positively giving honour, but if it’s the best one can make out of the whole shitty business, then it's better than nothing. And above all, I remind myself constantly that God isn’t stupid. He knows about, and understands all the rotten, twisted knotted intricacies of family emotional problems, and He understands and has compassion on our frailty.
When it comes to ministering to the parent, it may in theory be possible, but the (grown-up) child is definitely not the one to do it – they are just too vulnerable.
On the question of the culpability of people who have incurable mental problems such as narcissistic personality disorder, I really wouldn’t like to even hazard a guess. I certainly disagree with the presumption of the Christian counselling website referred to by Jade Constable, which condemned sociopaths as being 'the wicked' whom God will destroy. But I do believe that the Judge of the whole world will do what is right, and that our human moral judgement, created in the image of God’s moral judgement, will recognise the rightness of whatever God’s decision may be, and concede to its impeccable validity.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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