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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Ship's Liberal Consensus
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Isn't 'charismatic Anglican' a contradiction in terms?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Ship has such a wide variety of views, from people I would avoid in real life - it keeps me grounded.
How do you mean grounded?
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Isn't 'charismatic Anglican' a contradiction in terms?
With a lower case C, yes.
[ 27. August 2012, 20:13: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
leo: quote:
The Ship has such a wide variety of views, from people I would avoid in real life - it keeps me grounded.
This reminds me of a really liberal friend I was talking with the other day. She was rhapsodizing about the liberal utopia (in the US!) that was just around the corner. I told her that she didn't talk to enough conservatives. She was horrified- she'd never talk to conservatives! I told her that she only saw a sunny, liberal future because she only talked to liberals.
She wasn't convinced. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Given that the list of active members includes Orthodox, RC, Baptist, Methodist (and its cousin, UCoC), Anglican, atheist, agnostic, ...(several others) and those "wandering in the rubble of faith", all spread over at least three continents
Six, by my count.
And, don't forget the Quakers, the Buddhists, the Zen-turned-Catholics, and the odd Pagan. The infrequent Muslim doesn't seem to stay for long—more's the pity. I guess I'm playing diversity bingo, but have we any Hindus or Animists?
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
vacant see of Buggery-on-the-Wold
Yerevan, is that the sister see to the American Diocese of East Bumfuck?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
...Just a request that they follow board rules and acknowledge they're going to get asked to defend their line in the sand with facts, reason, and logic.
This is the thing - "facts, reason, and logic" mean different things to different people.
No, I'm pretty sure they mean the same thing to everyone. Just because we form different opinions based on facts, reason, and logic doesn't mean they are altered at their core.
Of course, when you start to confuse your own opinion with facts, reason, and logic-- that way lies madness and political office.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
[QUOTE]In the same way, people sometimes say they have "proved" they are right and the other (non-liberal) view wrong. Who says so?
This is a contest? We're getting points now? There's a judge handing out awards? Why does someone have to be right and someone else have to be wrong? Why can't we all lay our opinions out, try and poke holes in them, and then at the end of the day, go out for a beer (or cup of tea, as your wont)?
Frankly, Mark, you're reminding me a lot of this classic xkcd comic.
[ 27. August 2012, 20:52: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I do know of at least one person, possibly two, who are members, but never post on the boards for much the same reasons I have stated.
Could it be that some long term members (10 yrs +) are "respected" in such a way that they put off new mambers or less frequent visitors from getting involved in the discussions?
Personally, I wouldn't think it could be that. I lurked for a while before picking up the courage to post here. Frankly, I'm embarrassed to remember how confrontative I was, at times, especially to some of the founding members of the Ship.
Now, I'm here about ten years and have never found any lack of people disagreeing with my views or telling me when, in their opinion, I've got it wrong or am being deluded. There are many posters here whom I'm sure would rather stick forks in their eyes than agree with a single sentiment I post. Sometimes I can even understand why!
Here's how I see it working. If someone has a decent argument to contribute to a debate they'll find others who agree backing them up, so long as they don't make total pricks of themselves in the process. Nobody wants to be allied with a prick. They'll also find other people who disagree with them, disagreeing with them. If that all seems like too much for particular dispositions to deal with, I can understand why engaging with debate is stressful for them. Though the variety and sometimes strength of opinion can be disconcerting.
It's much easier to concentrate on the issues rather than the egos - especially one's own.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
..but middle-class charismatic Anglicans (the HTB set, if you will) are certainly not underrepresented!
Really? I can't actually think of any obvious HTB types on the Ship. In fact HTB and Alpha seem to get thoroughly slated on here. Seriously, the obvious bias is towards Anglicanism. Hence all those 'Whether the Anglican Communion?' and 'Lets discuss candidates for the vacant see of Buggery-on-the-Wold' threads.
But I think one of the great dynamics of the Ship is we all have different perceptions. When I think of SOF I think of Orthodox and Catholic Shipmates, I think of Freddy and Mudfrog, the Buddhists, and quakers. I think of the American Episcopalians who seem so different to my understanding of Anglicanism in many ways; the high church set who think that wearing a cassock on the street and calling their minister 'Father' is normal. And the no-church lot who gave up on religion but still want to know God. And of course the atheists who are part and parcel of the Ship - and I hope will always be so.
The predominance of Anglicans, or Middle of the Road/liberal ideas, when it exists, is not an object or goal of the Ship.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I do know of at least one person, possibly two, who are members, but never post on the boards for much the same reasons I have stated.
That reminds me of a song.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is next to impossible to have a meaningful discussion of whether you are being subject to prejudice / discrimination if you are not willing to give specific examples.
We try to host even handedly - but without specific examples of the decisions you wish to query it is not possible to give you an explanation of a given decision nor - if appropriate - an apology.
One example is this Purgatory thread where I got a hostly warning where other more "respected" posters making personal insults against me received nothing. Maybe I was out of order at times, but I would also argue that some of them crossed the line. But it seemed to me that because they went with the Ship's liberal consensus they had nothing to fear.
Anyway, I thought I'd turn it into a more general discussion, rather than for it to be just about me, because I've noticed it for others who don't adhere to (what seems to me to be) the liberal consensus.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Anyway, I thought I'd turn it into a more general discussion, rather than for it to be just about me, because I've noticed it for others who don't adhere to (what seems to me to be) the liberal consensus.
Did you also notice that they didn't start Styx threads about it?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is next to impossible to have a meaningful discussion of whether you are being subject to prejudice / discrimination if you are not willing to give specific examples.
We try to host even handedly - but without specific examples of the decisions you wish to query it is not possible to give you an explanation of a given decision nor - if appropriate - an apology.
One example is this Purgatory thread where I got a hostly warning where other more "respected" posters making personal insults against me received nothing. Maybe I was out of order at times, but I would also argue that some of them crossed the line. But it seemed to me that because they went with the Ship's liberal consensus they had nothing to fear.
Anyway, I thought I'd turn it into a more general discussion, rather than for it to be just about me, because I've noticed it for others who don't adhere to (what seems to me to be) the liberal consensus.
You are still going on about this being a 'ship's issue' without providing examples. Please link to a few actual posts, not a thread of many pages.
Ta muchly.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm so "respected" I recently got banned for 2 years.
It hasn't come to that yet - I haven't even been on the Ship that long!
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
...And very definitely more 'Guardian reader', to use a UK specific reference.
Aha... THAT'S what I was trying to get at - Guardianistas, although it won't mean much to those across the pond.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Anyway, I thought I'd turn it into a more general discussion, rather than for it to be just about me, because I've noticed it for others who don't adhere to (what seems to me to be) the liberal consensus.
OK, give some specific examples of that, then. Without them you are still just making unsupported claims.
Don't believe me? Acquaint yourself with the basics of making a coherent argument.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
One example is this Purgatory thread where I got a hostly warning where other more "respected" posters making personal insults against me received nothing. Maybe I was out of order at times, but I would also argue that some of them crossed the line. But it seemed to me that because they went with the Ship's liberal consensus they had nothing to fear.
My hostly decision on this was as follows: You have started a few threads on the same topic, and every time anyone disagrees with you on them, you attack them instead of addressing the content of their disagreement. I tried to address this concern privately to no avail. Therefore, I felt that the good order of Purgatory required that you be warned about the way that you were conducting your posts.
I agree that there were some folks willing to join in on the personal attack festivities, but the source of the disturbance in the force was you in my hostly judgment and so I intervened accordingly. I have also issued other warnings to stay on topic to the rest of the group. While I recognize that you do not share my view on this, that was the basis for my hostly intervention.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You mean this post ?
[Crosspost]
[ 27. August 2012, 22:04: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is next to impossible to have a meaningful discussion of whether you are being subject to prejudice / discrimination if you are not willing to give specific examples.
We try to host even handedly - but without specific examples of the decisions you wish to query it is not possible to give you an explanation of a given decision nor - if appropriate - an apology.
One example is this Purgatory thread where I got a hostly warning where other more "respected" posters making personal insults against me received nothing. Maybe I was out of order at times, but I would also argue that some of them crossed the line. But it seemed to me that because they went with the Ship's liberal consensus they had nothing to fear.
Well, that should be very easy to prove then. What were these personal insults against you? They should be there in that thread in black and white.
I recall you saying that I had personally insulted you because I labelled your OP as - in part - childishly narrow-minded. I replied to your post, which I trust was satisfactory. I certainly set it out very clearly! But maybe you think that when someone dislikes your views or objects to your style of posting this is some form of ad hominem attack?
I was also, incidentally, one of those whom T Clune reminded in a hostly admonishment to stick to the point! Which naturally I observed.
So let's hear the personal insults you've suffered on that thread which the Purgatory Hosts chose to overlook, in your opinion.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
BTW & FWIW I firmly and vehemently deny that I am theologically liberal.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, that should be very easy to prove then. What were these personal insults against you? They should be there in that thread in black and white.
I recall you saying that I had personally insulted you because I labelled your OP as - in part - childishly narrow-minded. I replied to your post, which I trust was satisfactory. I certainly set it out very clearly! But maybe you think that when someone dislikes your views or objects to your style of posting this is some form of ad hominem attack?
I was also, incidentally, one of those whom T Clune reminded in a hostly admonishment to stick to the point! Which naturally I observed.
So let's hear the personal insults you've suffered on that thread which the Purgatory Hosts chose to overlook, in your opinion.
I think we're done with this particular incident now - I only referred to it because people insisted I give an example. The topic was supposed to be more of a general discussion, but on reflection maybe I did misunderstand the purpose of Styx threads.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Isn't 'charismatic Anglican' a contradiction in terms?
Not according to the church I attended during much of the 1990s. We were certainly unusual, but I hope we weren't a contradiction.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The topic was supposed to be more of a general discussion, but on reflection maybe I did misunderstand the purpose of Styx threads.
Yeah, maybe. Styx is impersonal, Hell is personal, Purg is civil. This has all been reasonably civil, maybe you could ask for a kindly H&A relocation.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
BTW & FWIW I firmly and vehemently deny that I am theologically liberal.
Yeah, but you are nice to gay people and even believe them if they say they are Christian. Ergo, you are a liberal.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Aha... THAT'S what I was trying to get at - Guardianistas, although it won't mean much to those across the pond.
I post quite a lot on the Guardian site and it has a very different feel from this one. My limited experience here makes me think this is more liberal in a BBC way than in a Guardianista one. Which in US terms probably means more like NPR or PBS than New York Times.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
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Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
BTW & FWIW I firmly and vehemently deny that I am theologically liberal.
Yeah, but you are nice to gay people and even believe them if they say they are Christian. Ergo, you are a liberal.
Busted.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
There is an important distinction between saying a post is childish or an idea is asinine, and saying that the person posting is an ass. It is perfectly acceptable on the Ship, and even expected, to attack ideas, statements, or claimed facts that you don't agree with - that is part of discussion. But it is not permitted (outside of Hell) to attack the person.
Some Shipmates take a while to understand the distinction, and in the meantime may feel that they are being personally attacked, when it is really their ideas and statements that the other comments are aimed at.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
People who never change their minds may come to identify so closely with their beliefs that they cannot distinguish themselves from their words.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I've just noticed this thread. One poster suggested that the ship is populated by those who would have had coffee at the university chaplaincy and perhaps that is a fairly accurate description of its feel (to me). I would have described it as thoughtful rather than liberal, although the occasional student of my posts will note that I am perpetually kicking at "liberal" liturgics and find myself drifting more and more to an agreeably and humanely mediaeval Anglicanism, but I am more politically located in Liberal (Canadian version) circles. Either way, I like the gentle challenges to my positions and, with perhaps two exceptions, have tried to respond accordingly. I come here for different perspectives which somehow manage not to be hostile ones.
The consensus which exists is social, that we can have a common meeting ground. Such places are rare in real life, and rare in Cyberia. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
Too right, AtA.
As a meta-note, "You should know what I'm talking about" or "You should guess what I mean", especially when combined with an inability to or a refusal to provide specific examples, are strong, strong, strong poison in individual and group relationships. It's toxic in work relationships, it's toxic in personal relationships, it will screw up any organizational relationships.
Use. Your. Words.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
maybe I did misunderstand the purpose of Styx threads.
Let's upgrade that "maybe" to a "probably", and end this thread before I start inflicting my more specific opinions on everyone and make the baby jeebus cry.
If a specific concern/complaint/question/comment about a particular Crew action comes to mind, start a new thread in The Styx. If the liberal progressivati's tracheal clutch on The Ship is sufficiently interesting to falsify, try Purgatory. I suggest everything else be conducted in Hell, because mostly you all suck.
-RooK
Styx Host
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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