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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » JULY BOOK GROUP: T. Pratchett's "Thief of Time" (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: JULY BOOK GROUP: T. Pratchett's "Thief of Time"
St. Gwladys
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I'd never noticed that either - now, it'as blindingly obvious [Snigger]

--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)

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Sparrow
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I think it's an example of Terry's masterly misdirection - we are introduced to Lobsang first of all as a thief and we think, he is the thief of the title.

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Golden Key
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Shhhh...let's save book details for the discussion on the 20th, please!
[Angel] [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Morgan
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Love Terry Pratchett. Have not done a book group before so this looks a good place to start.
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Starbug
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Book just arrived from Amazon. Looking forward to reading it and then the discussion!

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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor

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Golden Key
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Hi. Does the 20th (this Friday) still work for people? We can adjust the date, if necessary. OTOH, latecomers are welcome!
[Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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I never participated in this group, but I just got my hands on this book! It's only the second Pratchett book that I'm reading, so I'm not very familiar with Discworld yet. I don't know if I'll be able to finish it before tomorrow, but I expect to go a long way in the weekend.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Sir Kevin
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I'll finish at least 2/3 of the book today, so by midday tomorrow, I'll join in the discussion. Three interlinking stories are difficult to keep track of sometimes, as are the lack of chapters....

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Golden Key
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No need to rush. [Smile] I'll post the questions, then you can join when you're ready.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Sir Kevin: Three interlinking stories are difficult to keep track of sometimes, as are the lack of chapters....
You just need to follow the 'Ticks' [Biased]

I'm almost finished, but I don't have much internet access in the weekend. I'll try to answer the questions on Monday, if that's alright.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Golden Key
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DISCUSSION STARTS HERE.

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your keyboards! In addition to the usual “what I liked/disliked” stuff, you might consider these:

--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

--If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?

--How important is Chaos in our reality?

--What did you think of Myria/Unity?

--Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?

These are all just suggestions.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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LeRoc--

No rush on the questions! [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
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Golden Key:
quote:
--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?
I wish I was Susan as a teacher. [Big Grin]

I also share her taste in chocolate, although in a pinch, I will not despise nougat.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Golden Key
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Yes, though the closest I get to liking nougat is a 3 Musketeers bar, which I haven't had in many years. So I find her "nougat doesn't count" principle quite sound. Helpful purveyors of boxed chocs put a map inside the lid, so you know what you're getting. (Of course, in the words of Forrest Gump, "you never know what you're going to get".)

[Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Penny S
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I'm possibly, here, afraid to say that the book has had no effect on my thoughts about Revelation, since I have long regarded it as not being about the end of the world, but intended to illuminate something else, pertinent at the time of writing.

My mother, who had a Bishop's Certificate, and probably a better understanding of theology than the minister who expelled her from the Congregational Church we were members of, warned me to be cautious about any group basing their teachings on Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew 24 being matters of fact.

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St. Gwladys
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With Miss Susan as a teacher, school trips would have been much more exciting! I like the idea of chocolates you don't like not really counting.

Myria is an interesting character - she identifies some of the things which make us human rather than just masses of atoms. She comes to understand why the Auditors cannot see that things such as beauty are not wholly rational and objective. [Have I got that the right way round? Or should it be "objective?]

--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?
Yes of course, the school trips sound like great fun. But to be honest, I have to say I didn't like her too much as a character. Everything goes too easy for her, there's not much of a conflict, and that makes her a bit too slick for me sometimes. The fact that she's a daughter of Death is great, though.

Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?
Well, the book does make the end of the world seem like a lot of fun! The Fifth Horseman named Ronnie is fun of course, but I especially liked War bickering with his wife: "Will you be careful? Oh, he gets too old for this kind of thing." Otherwise it didn't tell me much about Revelation.

If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?
I'm not enough of a fan to catch all of them, but this part of the book was quite funny. I especially liked how Lu-Tze uses the stupid clichés of his former landlady as a source of Wisdom.

How important is Chaos in our reality?
To me it is! One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to...

What did you think of Myria/Unity?
I liked her character, but in my opinion she could have been fleshed out more. The same thing about Jeremy. In a sense, they both are travelling down the same road: they both suffer from some kind of obsessive-compulsive orderliness in the beginning and are finding their way to humanity, culminating in the moment in which Jeremy asks Myria out. It's a shame that Pratchett didn't follow up on that more.

Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?
I don't know if I'd like to be one, but I'd sure like it when some of them could spare a couple of hours for me from time to time. I mean, it's not like these deep-sea fish are really going to miss them...


Overall, I have to say that I'm a bit on the fence about this book. There are some very funny moments, especially when Lu-Tze quotes his landlady, or in the interaction between Jeremy and Igor.

But sometimes it seems that Pratchett's dragging his jokes out for too long, especially in the second half of the book. For example, the chocolate thing was a bit overdone in my taste. Also, the Q reference was too in-your-face to me, I like it when they are more subtle.

And as I said, I think their was more potential in the Jeremy-Myriad relationship, both in story-telling and as a comic device. They are both like Pinocchio or Data in a way, starting out with complete logic but trying to find their humanity. To do that while at the same finding eachother as a shy, unexperienced couple... I just think there could have been more into that.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

I'm not sure I as a student would have got on with her very well - I had quite a few "Jason" tendencies - but I'd certainly want any child of mine to have her!

quote:
--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?
Not as such, but I found the angel with the iron book who had unknowingly been written out of canon amusing!

quote:
--If you’re a fan of the old “Kung Fu” TV series, did you catch the various references?
Oh yes [Big Grin] . And I don't think I'll ever forget Rule One again!

For me, the best parts of the book are when Lu-tze is teaching Lobsang what real strength and skill are.

quote:
--How important is Chaos in our reality?
He's massively important. Everyone needs fresh milk.

quote:
--What did you think of Myria/Unity?
A fabulous character. Her development through the book is one of the more astute explorations of what it really means to be human I've read. And the "THIS IS THE BIT THAT COMES NEXT" she gets at the end - meaning that she has truly become a person in her own right - is a wonderful moment.

quote:
--Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?
Yes to the first, but I'm not sure about the second (unless I could be Soto). Sweepers seem to have more scope for fun...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Marvin the Martian: Not as such, but I found the angel with the iron book who had unknowingly been written out of canon amusing!
As I understand it, he was the fifth member who left the band before they became famous [Big Grin]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Not as such, but I found the angel with the iron book who had unknowingly been written out of canon amusing!
As I understand it, he was the fifth member who left the band before they became famous [Big Grin]
No, that was Ronnie. It's a nice Beatles reference though [Smile]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Marvin the Martian: No, that was Ronnie. It's a nice Beatles reference though [Smile]
Ah, I got those mixed up. Yes, a nice joke.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Erik
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I agree with others that Myria's journy into what being a human really is was one of the more interesting threads in the book. One of my favourite images is in the art gallery when a number of auditors are disecting a painting to discover what makes it art and all they can find is pigment and canvas.

I also loved the line 'Tea is protocol'.

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One day I will think of something worth saying here.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Erik: I agree with others that Myria's journy into what being a human really is was one of the more interesting threads in the book.
I guess I must be an exception then [Biased] I'm sorry, but I've seen this done better. For example, the story line reminded me a lot of the Deja Q episode in Star Trek, where the Q character goes through much the same process as Myria LeJean. I found that much funnier, even the part with the chocolate. I'm sorry.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Doublethink.
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I think that Pratchett is mostly about trying out ideas that are populated with characters. Character development isn't the point of the story. If you look for character journey as the main focus you will be disappointed.

Pratchett writes some very good characters, the sweeper is the best in this book I think, but they tend to be largely unchangeable. I like the multiple references and parodies, but I really like the way the book talks about the perception of time and narrative. I think it is hugely insightful about how we mentally shape our own world.

(Oh and I like that we find out what avatar Susan is - and that he doesn't equate helpfulness personified with nice.)

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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St. Gwladys
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re-reading it yet again and still finding funny things - I noticed today that Lu-Tze tells Lobsang that he's not going to name him after some inscect - wasn't one of the Kung-Fu characters "Grasshopper"?

--------------------
"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)

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cattyish

Wuss in Boots
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--Do you wish you’d had Susan as a teacher?

She was a bit like one or two of my teachers. I think she'd be great, but if she keeps nipping off to fill for her grandfather or save the world then God help her substitute.

--Does the book affect the way you see the book of Revelation, and other end of the world scenarios?

In Pratchett's version, the guys who have decided on what is currently canon are in charge of what will actually happens, and that seems a worrying thought to me.

--How important is Chaos in our reality?

What, the one who's ruled by complex maths or the one who rules in my husband's wardrobe? I think a system has to be pretty complex before we can talk about making choices, so extremely important for our perception of ourselves as thinking individuals.

--What did you think of Myria/Unity?

I don't see how she could develop altruism or courage. Why wouldn't she just run away with her new body and hide from the mess? Other than that I think she did a good job as an outsider coming into human experience for the first time.

--Could we use some History Monks/Nuns in our world? (Are they already here? ) Would you like to be one?

I do like the idea of being able to give people time. To turn up when someone is getting into real trouble and stop everything, have a chat, then get them going again, that appeals.

Was anyone else wondering how things are likely to go between Susan and the new version of Time?

Cattyish.

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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Golden Key
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Re "Grasshopper":

Yes, that was the nickname Master Po gave to Kwai Chang Caine, the main character. When KCC was a boy at the monastery, there was a conversation where MP was trying to get KCC to be deeply aware of things going on around and inside him. KCC said that he couldn't hear his heartbeat. Then the following:

MP: Do you hear the grasshopper at your feet?

KCC: (Looks down in surprise, and sees the grasshopper.) Old man, how is it that you hear these things?

MP: (Laughing.) Young man, how is it that you do not?


[Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
cattyish: Was anyone else wondering how things are likely to go between Susan and the new version of Time?
After the merger between Lobsang and Jeremy, I just hope that Susan and Myria are into Time-sharing [Smile]

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
(Oh and I like that we find out what avatar Susan is - and that he doesn't equate helpfulness personified with nice.)

I missed this bit [Hot and Hormonal] That's speed reading for you.

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Last ever sig ...

blog

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snowgoose

Silly goose
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After all the advice given to me by folks on this thread, I read Wyrd Sisters and liked it very much. Since then I have also read Equal Rites, The 5th Elephant,and The Truth, in addition to Thief of Time. I have loved them all, so I thank you all for introducing me to Discworld.

That being said, I don't think I am very good at this book group discussion thing, but I will do what I can.

---I like Susan (and would love to have had her as a teacher), but my favorite character, in this or any of the books, is Death himself.

---The book does nothing at all to affect my views of the Book of Revelation, because my view of Revelation is that it was a political document and has nothing to do with actual Christianity.

---I did get a lot of the Kung Fu references but I suspect I missed a lot too.

---Chaos is one of the most important drivers of our reality. As a mathematician I (of course) have a mathematical view of Chaos, but the mathematics describe a great many things in Real Life.

---I'm sure Myria/Unity is meant to be important to the reader. She is certainly important to the story. But I agree with LeRoc that she is not fleshed out enough. Maybe that is what the author wanted us to feel. I don't know. But when I think about the book I think of her more as just a part of the story than as an actual character, if that makes sense.

---I love the whole concept of the History Monks, but our world is just not set up that way, alas.

The Sweeper and Death were definitely my favorite characters.

--------------------
Lord, what can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man? --Terry Pratchett

Save a Siamese!

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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snowgoose:
quote:
---I'm sure Myria/Unity is meant to be important to the reader. She is certainly important to the story. But I agree with LeRoc that she is not fleshed out enough. Maybe that is what the author wanted us to feel. I don't know. But when I think about the book I think of her more as just a part of the story than as an actual character, if that makes sense.

I do think she is meant to feel like that. She is only a seed of a person. She just can't handle "growing up" without the chance to be a child growing into an adult. It is all overwhelming, so whatever emotions she has, she keeps a lid on them the best she can. Therefore, to us, she's rather dull.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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To The Pain
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# 12235

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I think part of the point of Myria/Unity's character is that she's not fleshed-out. She has put on flesh so it's all a bit of a blank-canvas experience, almost like she has no character to be fleshed-out. Does that make sense? She won't respond or be written like a well-rounded character because she retains the vestiges of her logical corners. That said, I don't know if I particularly like her.

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Mrs Shrew

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# 8635

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I found Myria really interesting, and had a lot of sympathy for her struggle to cope with the challenges which "putting on a human body" created for her.

Her observations about how complex the simple business of living really is made me think.

I also chuckled at the dissection of the pictures in the art gallery. Part of this made me think that sometimes this is what we do when we look into art closely - we look so hard for what makes the beauty that we can end up reducing its value (a little reminiscent of the quote in my signature really).

I also enjoy Prachetts observations of "teachery" qualities in Susan. I like how she is a practical sort of person, and generally unflappable. It was nice to see her interacting with Lobsang in this, however - it widened the character out a little beyond simply being someone who copes in every circumstance through sheer refusal to panic.

Pratchett may not be aiming for character development so much as exploring an idea, but that doesn't mean his characters aren't interesting to read.

More generally, I found this book a hard one to get into (for a Pratchett) but really enjoyable by the end.

I'm not sure what made it harder for me - I think the multiple story threads which he always uses felt more divided to me then they sometimes do.

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Was "mummyfrances".

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Boadicea Trott
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# 9621

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I re-read this on the weekend, and was surprised at how much of the plot I had forgotten over the years.

Susan cracks me up; I would have loved her as a teacher. The children TP describes are so real, and the exorcism quip was very apt. I think that anyone who works in a school for any length of time can relate to the children in Susan's class as being very real characters :-)

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snowgoose

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# 4394

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This is probably going to get a "Huh? What?" out of everyone else here, but the scenes where Lobsang et al. were starting/stopping/re-balancing the procrastinator cylinders reminded me of all those books Robert Heinlein wrote for kids in the 1950's. Not the story part, of course, just the feeling of those particular scenes.

[Even with preview post I sometimes mess up.]

[ 26. July 2012, 15:38: Message edited by: snowgoose ]

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Penny S
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# 14768

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There do seem to be a number of strands about becoming human, or becoming what one is meant to be, since the same thing has been happening to the horsemen as to Myria/Unity, and to Jeremy/Lobsang, Time herself, and indeed to Susan. Possibly even Nanny Ogg. Let alone the auditors, who are destroyed by the process.

I am wondering about Dylans - Llamedos has a ring of one to it, and then there is the Zimmerman Valley, which Lobsang must go down before becoming fully himself.

And can Pratchett possibly have referred to a newspaper character who could walk through crowds unnoticed when he named Lobsang Ludd?

And why use the name of someone who had an extremely dubious history for the son of Time? It isn't a random Tibetan name.

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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I've always taken the use of Lobsang as a sly nod to Lobsang Rampa, especially as he's not who he seems to be - and, after all, how many of us are familiar with any real Tibetan names? Something with dubious connotations would be far more apt for a loosely based humorous monastery (do those last few words make sense? Probably not, but hey.). I wonder whether Marco Soto, the History Monk who discovers him, is named for a fan - I have a feeling that TP has done fan lotteries before where the winner gets a character named for them. There's a really obvious one in Night Watch.

I hadn't connected Llamedos and Zimmerman's, though I've read most of the books so didn't see Llamedos as something new - maybe that's why you made the connection? Incidentally, has anyone ever noticed that Ivor the Engine used to stop at Llanmad?

AG

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Gill H

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# 68

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Llamedos does indeed have a Dylan connection. The village of Llareggub in 'Under Milk Wood' is the inspiration. In both cases, you need to read the name backwards...

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agingjb
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# 16555

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Yes, I've assumed that Lobsang Ludd is a conflation of Lobsang ("The Third Eye") Rampa and Lobby ("and I claim my five pounds") Lud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Rampa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobby_Lud

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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And there was me thinking that Ludd was a reference to those people who didn't want the world to progress, the Luddites,

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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I didn't see it as new - I've read the lot. I used to award myself the next book in the series when I had sent off an assignment to the OU! But when listening to Wyrd Sisters on the BBC last week, the narrator read the opening in a Burtonesque voice, as if it were opening Under Milk Wood, so it primed me to spot Dylan again. I do wonder if I'm pushing at meaning with Zimmerman. An odd name for Discworld. (Apparently there are a couple of quantum physicists with the moniker. More likely than Dylan in this context.)

I wondered about Marco Soto - it's not an uncommon name, and some bearers of it look as though they might be Pratchett fans. And this page -
Trope analysis of Thief of Time - seems to confirm the fan connection. among other things which may take the fun out of trying to work out what Pratchett was up to. Whoever has composed this website has far too much time on their hands. And may also have missed the point of Pratchett's narrativium in exactly the same way as the auditors missed the point of the painting they atomised. (You can read the spoilers by highlighting them.)

I said I might be pushing Zimmerman too far - I think they may have gone much too far beyond that with Jeremy Clockson.

I have made reference to Lobby Lud above. Searching to see if anyone else has picked this up led to some very odd results. Google would quote a phrase connecting Lobsang Ludd with this character, but the page would have been wiped of it! This may answer the History Monks question. They have missed this page. Connections for Lobsang's names. so far.
And this one. Lobby Lud They seem to be earlier versions of the swept ones.

There is an alternative Lobsang. Probably not more appropriate than Rampa, though.

[ 27. July 2012, 12:08: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
They have missed this page. Connections for Lobsang's names. so far.

From that article
quote:
and to Ned Ludd (paralleling Lobsang's destruction of the Glass Clock with Ludd's destruction of the stocking frames).
Looks like I was right with the Luddite connection [Cool]

As for the Lobby Lud thing, the lack of any "and I claim my £5" in the story makes me suspect that it was a coincidence the name being simply made by adding Lobsang (Tibetan third eye) and Ludd (breaker of machines.

Whether the Lobby Lud connection was deliberate or not it does not have any bearing on the plot, (But then again the Jeremy Clarkson connection has no bearing on the plot either, but it is obviously there as a name pun.)

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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I don't think that Pratchett would have left something like Lobby Lud hanging about ready to be picked up if he didn't want it to be spotted - especially not if he actually intended the Clarkson connection. With that, I imagine he thought of Clockson first, and then couldn't resist what followed. Jeremy is one of those names which seems out of place in Discworld.

Having spent a fruitless time with my parents and siblings searching the crowds on the Stade at Folkestone by the fish market, totally failing to spot Lobby Lud, I think it would be an appropriate name for someone who could so easily evade detection. If Pratchett had had a similar experience, it could easily have occurred to him.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:


As for the Lobby Lud thing, the lack of any "and I claim my £5" in the story makes me suspect that it was a coincidence the name being simply made by adding Lobsang (Tibetan third eye) and Ludd (breaker of machines.

Whether the Lobby Lud connection was deliberate or not it does not have any bearing on the plot,

On the other hand, 5 is important throughout the plot, and it would be possible to turn the famous phrase round to make the challenge to Lu Tse claiming knowledge of the 5th surprise. I think Pratchett is the sort who, faced with a coincidence, is likely to work with it and take it as far as he can, which is why I find the Clarkson connection so unsatisfying.

Clockson knows, without understanding why, that he needs to behave in certain ways to be acceptable, and worries about it. To have the name echo, without a corresponding echo in the person, doesn't seem up to Pratchett's usual standard. Puns need to do more than simply sound alike to be worth the effort either of making or noticing.

(Sources on the internet on name meanings suggest that Lobsang means fine mind, disciple, or kind-hearted, which fit him, rather than third eye.)

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Sir Kevin
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# 3492

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I lost my library book: hopefully it is somewhere around the house or in one of the cars... [Razz]

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Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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I found on rereading the book how much I like the scenes at the Monastery. Lu-Tze and Lobsang remind me of saints that their contemporaries couldn't abide like Christina the Astonishing, Joseph of Cupertino, Joan of Arc, and our own Simeon the Holy Fool. They are so outside the box, they are busily duct-taping it shut.

And the Abbot is adorable: "Wanna bicket!!!"

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Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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A couple of resources:

-- The Mandala Project. Basic info and pics, and a ton of links to related websites.

-- Wikipedia's Mandala page. Basic info and pics. If you check out the Kalachakra link in the "See Also" section towards the bottom, you'll find out about one very special mandala.

The name means "time wheel"...
[Big Grin]

From the Kalachakra page:

quote:
The Kalachakra tradition revolves around the concept of time (kāla) and cycles (chakra): from the cycles of the planets[citation needed], to the cycles of human breathing, it teaches the practice of working with the most subtle energies within one's body on the path to enlightenment.

The Kalachakra deity represents a Buddha and thus omniscience. Since Kalachakra is time and everything is under the influence of time, Kalachakra knows all. Whereas Kalachakri or Kalichakra, his spiritual consort and complement, is aware of everything that is timeless, untimebound or out of the realm of time. In Yab-yum, they are temporality and atemporality conjoined. Similarly, the wheel is without beginning or end.[1]

--I mentioned that there are references to the old "Kung-Fu" series. Kungfu-Guide is a fan site, with tons of quotes from the show.

-- IMDB site for "Kung Fu".

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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Celtic Knotweed
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# 13008

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One moment I've always liked is when Lu Tse works out Ronnie's name, turns around and says,
quote:
Pleased to meet you. Let me guess your name.
OK, so it's a Stones track, not Beatles, but the song fits rather well to Chaos/Kaos. (Of course, I then end up with the track as an earworm [Help] )

Surprised no-one's linked to the L-Space site yet. Main (or only?) Pratchett fan site. I have no connection to the site, just find it interesting to dip in and out of sometimes.

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Starbug
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# 15917

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First time I've read this novel and I really enjoyed it. Most of the Kung Fu references probably went over my head and I didn't understand all the mandala/procrastinator stuff, but the basic story was fun.

I love the idea of a fifth horseman who left before they became famous. Apart from that, it didn't really remind me of the book of Revelation, though. The Angel who got written out was funny.

Susan is one of my favourite characters, along with Death and the Death of Rats. It was good to find out her weakness for chocolates. I would have lived to be in her class, but I think she would have been pretty intimidating!

The abbott was great fun (BIKKIT! Wanna 'lephant!). All in all, a great read. Thanks for suggesting it.

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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quote:
Originally posted by Celtic Knotweed:

Surprised no-one's linked to the L-Space site yet. Main (or only?) Pratchett fan site. I have no connection to the site, just find it interesting to dip in and out of sometimes.

That used to be one of my favourite sites, but last time I looked it didn't seem to have been updated for ages.

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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