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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is English really swimming both ways?
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
My (American) housemate says that for about the first three months that we lived together, she didn't understand about a third of what I said.
My personal favourite Britishism is "wellies". "Gumboots" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
There was a movie about the X-Craft midget submarine attempt to sink the Tirpitz, they had a big-name American actor. It was an entirely British event. They cast the actor as a Canadian and so stuck a "Canada" scroll on his shoulder to turn his Royal Naval Reserve uniform in to a Royal Canadian Naval Reserve uniform.
Cheap, eh?
Alan Thicke was busy that month. What'd you want them to do, cast Howie Mandel?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Back to aluminium - I had understood that there was once a conference on standardising (zing?) spelling of scientific terms, and some Britishisms (e.g. sulphur, foetus) were switched to American (sulfur, fetus) and some Americanisms (e.g. aluminum) were switched to British (aluminium), which is why British journals refer to sulfur and fetuses, but does not explain why American journals still refer to aluminum.
Both endings are used for different elements. Ex: potassium, calcium/ molybdenum, tantalum, platinum. Basically, the British went with ~ium because it sounded fancier (really), and the Americans with with ~um because the guy who first sold it thought it was easier to say (really).
I've just been running it by myself in my head - I definitely find it more awkward to say aluminum in terms of physical mouth shape, unless I do it in an American accent. (I think it's something to do with the whole of the 'min' syllable, as opposed, for instance, to the 'tin' in platinum.)
This para in the Wikipedia piece is amusing.
quote:
Most countries use the spelling aluminium. In the United States, the spelling aluminum predominates.[16][62] The Canadian Oxford Dictionary prefers aluminum, whereas the Australian Macquarie Dictionary prefers aluminium. In 1926, the American Chemical Society officially decided to use aluminum in its publications; American dictionaries typically label the spelling aluminium as a British variant.
But 'ium' was accepted as the international standard in 1990 - with 'um' as an acceptable variant a few years later.
This has reminded me of the way I was led to interpret an episode in the Odyssey, in which the ship is filled with what I shall first call brimstone, as a volcanic eruption rather than a made up mythic fantasy. I read an American edition, in which what I usually saw as 'sulphur' was written as 'sulfur', and my brain immediately connected to its scientific section, which had been quiescent up till then. My brain obviously automatically assumes that if the spelling is American, the subject is science. (End of Chapter 12 if anyone's interested.)
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Language is defined by the linguistic community, not rules in a book.
It has always been thus, rules being codified after usage becomes common. ISTM, there has been an increased pace of change, as well as minority* influencing the masses, following the advent of mass communication. While this may be the new paradigm, it drives me mad.
*Celebrities, news presenters, etc.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My personal favourite Britishism is "wellies". "Gumboots" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Of course "gumboots" isn't particularly American either, at least in this part of the colonies, where "rubber boots" is the norm.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My personal favourite Britishism is "wellies". "Gumboots" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Of course "gumboots" isn't particularly American either, at least in this part of the colonies, where "rubber boots" is the norm.
I, coming from flyover land, would've gone with "rain-boots." Until now I would have looked perplexed if advised to wear my gumboots.
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You Brits might as well know that Americans find your accents unbearably sexy, and believe absolutely anything you say is Shakespeare. It's alarming that you find our accent so classless, but that's the way of things.
Nice of you to say so--but I don't know how Americans continue to find British accents attractive, since Disney and other filmmakers have done their very best to associate the British accent with evil!
Jungle book--Shere Khan, evil--British accent.
Mowgli, Baloo etc etc--good--American accents.
Evil is sexy. That's all you need to know.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
but, really????!
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
Thirding requests for Lyda*Rose to splain what *called Joe* means coz I've never heard it either.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Just guessing, but it is probably called UK replaces named US.
Johnny Cash singing 'Boy called Sue' wouldn't sound right.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
doesn't help, Balaam - *named Joe* still means nothing to me.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Evil is sexy. That's all you need to know.
Next time someone calls you sexy you'll know what they mean, c/o Ariston.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make,.
Well, my favorite is in the last volume, where Hermione tells Ron she's just finished washing his pants. Ron reacts (understandably) -- what teenaged boy (17ish) wants a 17 year old girl touching, washing, even thinking about his underwear? I doubt that US readers (and, alas, most Canadian readers for that matter) really got that one.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Never thought about "called." Does no one remember A Man Called Horse ?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... "gumboots" isn't particularly American either, at least in this part of the colonies, where "rubber boots" is the norm.
In Newfoundland, for reasons I can't quite fathom, they're called "government boots"; I think it's something to do with people who work seasonally and get social security at certain times of year.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.
To me rubbers and boots are different. Rubbers cover only the shoes, while boots go partway up the legs.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
doesn't help, Balaam - *named Joe* still means nothing to me.
How about "A man named Joe has just started work here" - does that makes sense?
UK version
"A man called Joe has just started work here"
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Thirding requests for Lyda*Rose to splain what *called Joe* means coz I've never heard it either.
Of course, the "Joe" part is just a generic example. But if someone asked, "Who's that tall guy over there?" when I was young, someone would probably say, "He's called ____". Nowadays I'd probably say, "He's ____".
When I was trying to figure out what sort of words and phrases I had picked up that were "Britishisms", "called" was mentioned on one of the online sources. I can't remember which now. I guess they were wrong. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.
To me rubbers and boots are different. Rubbers cover only the shoes, while boots go partway up the legs.
Moo
Rubbers are used for erasing errors made with a pencil.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Wellies are typically green are they not?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Of course, the "Joe" part is just a generic example. But if someone asked, "Who's that tall guy over there?" when I was young, someone would probably say, "He's called ____". Nowadays I'd probably say, "He's ____".
That's interesting, because I don't think those two statements ("He's called" vs "He is") are equivalent.
The things you learn on the ship.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Wellies are typically green are they not?
They can come in any old color in my mind. Though the ones for kiddies are usually bright yellow for some reason.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
I thought that was to make them easier to spot (as pedestrians) than they'd otherwise be in the rain. But maybe not.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
It seems to me that adult wellies are green. Kid's wellies come in either bright yellow or shocking pink.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martha
Shipmate
# 185
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Posted
If you are a farmer or proper country person you have green wellies. Otherwise they are red or black.
I recently had a discussion about what to call the vehicle that picks up garbage from outside your house, and introduced my American friends to the term bin lorry. I'm not sure it will come into general use, though.
Posts: 388 | From: in the kitchen | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Of course, the "Joe" part is just a generic example. But if someone asked, "Who's that tall guy over there?" when I was young, someone would probably say, "He's called ____". Nowadays I'd probably say, "He's ____".
That's interesting, because I don't think those two statements ("He's called" vs "He is") are equivalent.
The things you learn on the ship.
So I'm a sloppy speaker of English. Wadaya expect of a Yank? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
I wasn't trying to say that like it was a bad thing - just that it illuminates some of my communication problems, some of which I suspect come from the fact that almost no one I'm currently spending time around can even understand me when I talk the way I learned to talk growing up.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I watch enough British telly and read enough British books (James Herriot, anyone?) to have picked up a couple things here and there -- assuming I'm actually using them correctly, which is debatable. Most Americans use "around" instead of "round" (e.g., "I'm walking round the house"), but I've found myself using "round". I've also used "pop" a time or two (e.g., "I'll just pop round to the store to get eggs" instead of "I'm going to run down to the store to get eggs.").
Also, most Americans use the word "from" in some places where it seems that British folks to do not. For instance, an American might say, "I need something to stop these glasses from slipping down my nose" versus "I need something to stop these glasses slipping down my nose."
Oh, and I've been using the word "peckish" lately. Not sure if that counts.
I will not be referring to the garbage truck as the "bin lorry" anytime soon, though.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 01. October 2012, 23:53: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Bin lorry actually describes the function - after all it picks up bins which are full of garbage or recyclables. Unfortunately lorry is not a used word in Canadian. Useful that I can be multilingual in different forms of English, given some time to make the mental adjustments.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I've noticed the affected glottal stop in pop songs.
Katie Perry's current "I'm wide awake" has a line "on the concre'e".
That's been a feature of some East Coast and African-American accents for a long time--I have a New Jersey friend who's always substituted a glottal stop for an intervocal t. "Ki'en" for "kitten," "Pa'erson" for "Patterson", etc.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There are green wellies and green wellies - posh ones and ones the same as the black ones, but green. And a tangent tale - a farmer was taken into hospital after an electric shock from overhead wires leapt to him through a metal pole he was carrying beneath them (no contact, it was a wet day). "Your boots are green, aren't they?" commented the doctor. "How did you know?" asks the farmer. "You're alive," said the doctor.
[ 02. October 2012, 14:50: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
You're behind the times, Pete - true yuppie wellies now come in a variety of colours and usually have some kind of pattern on as well - flowers, stripes, whatever. I've even seen wellies with pictures of dogs and horses on them.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Barefoot Friar: quote:
Also, most Americans use the word "from" in some places where it seems that British folks to do not. For instance, an American might say, "I need something to stop these glasses from slipping down my nose" versus "I need something to stop these glasses slipping down my nose."
Either of those would be considered grammatical in British English, although most Brits would drop the 'from' in casual speech.
However in British English,'I visited with the vicar' would mean you went on a visit (to a third party) accompanied by the vicar, not that you went to visit/talk to the vicar. And it would be considered obscure (at best) or ungrammatical (at worst) without a noun phrase representing the third party inserted before 'with', eg;
'I visited Dorothy with the vicar'.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I think most Brits would say "I went round to Dorothy's with the vicar" or the (grammatically incorrect!) "Me and the vicar went over to Dorothy's this afternoon"(!!)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Bin lorry actually describes the function - after all it picks up bins which are full of garbage or recyclables. Unfortunately lorry is not a used word in Canadian. Useful that I can be multilingual in different forms of English, given some time to make the mental adjustments.
When I was a kid, they were known as "dustcarts". The term "bin lorry" is fairly recent.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
If you are a farmer or proper country person you have green wellies. Otherwise they are red or black.
Green is posh country. Black is ordinary country. Coloured is kids or young women who live in towns.
Or so my old Durham prejudices tell me. "Green wellies" was slang for students who had been to well-known private schools and had posh accents. Which was quite a lot of them. Though the word "green" was mostly silent. So "he's a right welly" h meant, more or less, that he had been to Harrow or Rugby or Eton or some such place. But it was definitely only green wellies that counted.
Green wellies with straps on.
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I've noticed the affected glottal stop in pop songs.
Katie Perry's current "I'm wide awake" has a line "on the concre'e".
That's been a feature of some East Coast and African-American accents for a long time--I have a New Jersey friend who's always substituted a glottal stop for an intervocal t. "Ki'en" for "kitten," "Pa'erson" for "Patterson", etc.
And its perfectly standard in the south-east of England too. (As well as, for some reason, Glasgow)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.
To me rubbers and boots are different. Rubbers cover only the shoes, while boots go partway up the legs.
Moo
Rubbers are used for erasing errors made with a pencil.
Or preventing errors made with a penis.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I remember dustcarts. I think from Mary Poppins,
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Barefoot Friar: quote:
Also, most Americans use the word "from" in some places where it seems that British folks to do not. For instance, an American might say, "I need something to stop these glasses from slipping down my nose" versus "I need something to stop these glasses slipping down my nose."
Either of those would be considered grammatical in British English, although most Brits would drop the 'from' in casual speech.
However in British English,'I visited with the vicar' would mean you went on a visit (to a third party) accompanied by the vicar, not that you went to visit/talk to the vicar. And it would be considered obscure (at best) or ungrammatical (at worst) without a noun phrase representing the third party inserted before 'with', eg;
'I visited Dorothy with the vicar'.
That makes sense. I usually say "I went to visit Mrs. Y." or "I went with Mr. X visit Mrs. Y.", but I've said it the other way, too.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martha
Shipmate
# 185
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Posted
Yes, I think US "visiting with" is equivalent to UK "coming over for a cup of tea". Indicates you sat down to chat and generally catch up with each other's lives.
My husband uses "ash cart" as a synonym for garbage truck, but I attribute this to him being from the grim North.
Posts: 388 | From: in the kitchen | Registered: May 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
If the varieties of English are merging in some ways, they're divergting in others.
Wonder if I'm the only one why finds 19th and early 20th British novels and short stories to be easier to read than early 21st century British novels and short stories?
E.g. "Hugo, being pissed, longed to snog with Kendra but had to wait for the sat-nav to lead him to the first available cash point in Harley Street."
Whereas every word of Sherlock Holmes is perfectly understandable to the Yanks.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
<re visit/visit with>
Alaric, I did not intend to imply that 'I visited Dorothy with the vicar' was something that British people say a lot - merely that it is a grammatical sentence in British English. Whereas
*I visited with the vicar
is not, although it's acceptable in US English.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
<re visit/visit with>
Alaric, I did not intend to imply that 'I visited Dorothy with the vicar' was something that British people say a lot - merely that it is a grammatical sentence in British English. Whereas
*I visited with the vicar
is not, although it's acceptable in US English.
It was only a matter of time before a thread like this brings out the pedants, e.g. me. So here goes.
"I visited with the vicar" is perfectly grammatical, it's just not always particularly clear. If in response to the question "Did you visit Dorothy by yourself?" you replied, "No, I visited with the vicar" it would be unobjectionable, although "No, I went with the vicar" woud be more likely.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Green is posh country. Black is ordinary country. Coloured is kids or young women who live in towns.
I agree. Green is Gloucestershire, whereas black is definitely the colour I remember being worn by dairy farmers in Cardiganshire.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
I was hoping one of our Kiwi shipmates would be along to settle the boot discussion, but since they haven't, I give you The Gumboot Song! (One of the few New Zealand creations that Aussies have not claimed...)
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
If the varieties of English are merging in some ways, they're divergting in others.
Wonder if I'm the only one why finds 19th and early 20th British novels and short stories to be easier to read than early 21st century British novels and short stories?
E.g. "Hugo, being pissed, longed to snog with Kendra but had to wait for the sat-nav to lead him to the first available cash point in Harley Street."
"Pissed" is a word best not to use. If an American says, "I'm pissed," they are fed up with something/someone. A Brit would have had too much alcohol.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
I was hoping one of our Kiwi shipmates would be along to settle the boot discussion, but since they haven't, I give you The Gumboot Song! (One of the few New Zealand creations that Aussies have not claimed...)
Weegies would claim it though.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
I love it, but hope he paid John Clark some royalties
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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