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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is English really swimming both ways?
EtymologicalEvangelical
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I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about! I never realised that we really were that divided by a common language!

Talking about Americanisms, I rather like the use of "the fall" to denote the autumn. I really wished we used that phrase here in ye olde Mother Country. It has an obvious evocative ring about it, but I don't find its simplicity a problem, but rather it adds to the sense (a bit like Spring, I suppose).

Apparently we did use "fall" in this sense at one time, and Gerard Manley Hopkins used it in his poem Spring and Fall (with a double, or possibly even triple, meaning).

[ 07. October 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"oo" is ambiguous because it could be like the "oo" in good or the "oo" in food.

Or the "oo" in blood.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"oo" is ambiguous because it could be like the "oo" in good or the "oo" in food.

Or the "oo" in blood.
I think we need the IPA! As different English speakers say those words differently from each other, we can't actually sure which vowels you mean!

Some British people might have noticed recent TV adds for the Co-op shops (I think) where the voiceover actors says "good food" with the same vowel in each word. If I said that I'd have used different vowels.

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Ken

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

Tidy not so much, but occasionally someone will say, "I'll tidy up" instead of "I'll clean up". "Tidy" generally means lighter work than "clean".

I think there is a double-disconnect here. In standard British usage "tidying up" is distinct from "cleaning". Tidying is putting things where they belong - books on shelves, plates in cupboards. Maybe making the bed. "Cleaning" is removing dirt from things and probably involves various cloths and fluids.

A tidy house is probably a clean one as well, but its primarily an organised house, with things in their proper places.

But recently the word has been extended to a general term of approval, with a wide range of meanings. Including someone who can "look after themselves" in a fight. For example boxing fans might call a boxer "tidy" (example here)


"Lush" is another word which has a wide range of use. Not so much many meanings, but one basic meaning of abundant or generous or well-supplied or fertile, with overtones of the soft and loose, which gets used in different ways. Lush vegetation. A lush garden has lots of vigorously growing plants in it. A lushly decorated room probably has lots of different furnishings and fabrics, maybe with rich colours and exotic patterns. And is probably comfortable in a rather soft and luxurious way. Lush music might be heavily arranged and a bit sexy. If someone is "a lush" they have taken advantage of an abundance of drink. On the other hand if someone is just "lush" then they are attractive - well maybe rather more than merely attractive. It implies abundant charms. A bit in your face.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Tree Bee

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I first came across lush and tidy as words of approval in the tv show Gavin and Stacey.
That could be why they've caught on more widely.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about!

In German halb fünf means four-thirty.

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Taliesin
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I was so puzzled by someone's comment on the pop singer's 'affected' glottal stop initially I couldn't think what on earth they meant.

I grew up in Portsmouth in a somewhat oversheltered home, and when I when to secondary school and a girl demanded 'jew wannasmay mayf?'
I struggled to respond immediately.
A peanut to the first correct translation.
clue, I had accidently bumped into her in the crowded corridor.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about!

In German halb fünf means four-thirty.
I am aware of this (my German is fairly reasonable).

But are you saying that Americans generally would understand "half five" as Germans would understand "halb fünf"?

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
But are you saying that Americans generally would understand "half five" as Germans would understand "halb fünf"?

If they were more familiar with German than with British English, yes. I didn't realize until just now that half five means five-thirty to the British.

Moo

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Adam.

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I used that once (in America) and someone assumed it was a smart alec way of saying two-thirty.

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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If someone is "a lush" they have taken advantage of an abundance of drink.

I thought "a lush" was a boy in a public (i.e. private, for American readers) school whose, err, charms were not lost on the older boys.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about!

In German halb fünf means four-thirty.
I am aware of this (my German is fairly reasonable).

But are you saying that Americans generally would understand "half five" as Germans would understand "halb fünf"?

An American wouldn't understand it at all.

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Sir Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I used that once (in America) and someone assumed it was a smart alec way of saying two-thirty.

Now that you're in seminary in the US, are you picking up too many Americanisms?

(I am still driving what passes for a ten-year-old Opel Vectra estate.)

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Halo
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I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'- not a squashed friend but someone who you share a house with. I think the amount of Kiwis living over there probably helped their understanding of the term.

Then again maybe I should say 'New Zealanders' to avoid the old 'Kiwis' vs 'kiwis' debate?

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Firenze

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quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'

I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.
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Enoch
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Nobody said 'half five' before the sixties. It caused quite a lot of confusion in those days because people who knew minimal German didn't know whether it was supposed to mean half past five or half past four.

There was a widespread belief that, like the modern usage of 'hopefully' from 'hoffentlich', the phrase had entered English from German immigrants to the US, and been misunderstood by native English speakers who had assumed it must be a smart way of saying half past five. But nobody knew on which side of the Atlantic the mistake had been made. So it could have been that in the US it meant half past four.

I don't use the idiom.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Nobody said 'half five' before the sixties.

Late 50s, in my recollection.

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Amorya

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'

I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.
The one I puzzle over is "roommate". To me that suggests you share a bedroom — such as in university in the US. But I think some people use it as an alternative to housemate/flatmate, and mean you each have a separate bedroom in a shared house.
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Ariel
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Well yes, I've seen ads for "roommates" on this side of the Atlantic, too, meaning a room to let that has twin beds in it. They're not common but they do happen.

[ 08. October 2012, 11:21: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'- not a squashed friend but someone who you share a house with.

Its a normal English word. Why do you think its specially kiwi?

Even if it wasn't a usual word and I'd never heard it before I think I'd suss it immediately by analogy with "housemate", "roommate", "bedmate", "nestmate". "-mate" is a normal way to form a word for two or more people (or other animals) that live together.


quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
The one I puzzle over is "roommate". To me that suggests you share a bedroom — such as in university in the US. But I think some people use it as an alternative to housemate/flatmate, and mean you each have a separate bedroom in a shared house.

Yes. Sharing a room ought to imply you all live in one room and get to see each other in bed. Does imply, in my usage of English.

I think the US usage of dormitory/dorm might have similar confusion here. In British English its one big room with lots of beds in it - something that hardly exists any more, I'm not sure I've ever seen one in Britain outside films or TV programmes about boarding schools. And I suspect even they are giving them up.

But my impression from US TV and films - lets be honest, almost entirely from "Buffy" - is that an American university can use "dorm" for a set of single or double bedrooms which share other facilities. Not sure what we'd call that here, though it exists, in fact its quite common. I suppose "suite" and "apartment" are both possible but they sound a bit posh for student rooms.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Student flats is what that gets called over here. That what my daughter lived in for the last 4 years in student halls. Flats with a shared kitchen/living room, one or more bathrooms and 5 - 8 bedrooms with locking doors.

Dorms still exist in youth hostels.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I think the US usage of dormitory/dorm might have similar confusion here. In British English its one big room with lots of beds in it - something that hardly exists any more, I'm not sure I've ever seen one in Britain outside films or TV programmes about boarding schools.

Never been to a Youth Hostel?

quote:
But my impression from US TV and films - lets be honest, almost entirely from "Buffy" - is that an American university can use "dorm" for a set of single or double bedrooms which share other facilities. Not sure what we'd call that here, though it exists, in fact its quite common.
We tend to call them "Halls" up here.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But my impression from US TV and films - lets be honest, almost entirely from "Buffy" - is that an American university can use "dorm" for a set of single or double bedrooms which share other facilities. Not sure what we'd call that here, though it exists, in fact its quite common. I suppose "suite" and "apartment" are both possible but they sound a bit posh for student rooms.

A dorm is a building with bedrooms. A set of single or double bedrooms with shared bathroom and living room is a suite. Some people stumble over calling the people who share such quarters suitemates, but others have no problem. My daughter used to refer to her 'suities'.

Moo

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Custard
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When I lived in such accommodation (in the UK), I refereed to those who shared it with me as "flatmates", since it was essentially a flat.

A dorm in the UK is a single room where many people sleep.

Agreed that "roommates" in the UK means that you sleep in the same room, just as "bathroom" means a room with a bath in it.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Never been to a Youth Hostel?

Not while it was open to the public! I'm more of a little tent in my backpack sort of person. (and anyway I was talking about where students sleep - you get shared rooms in hospitals here. And I'd guess barracks as well)

quote:

We tend to call them "Halls" up here.

Well, yes. But a "hall" in that sense is the entire building. Do we have a name other than "flat" for the suite of rooms around a landing or a corridor or a kitchen? Maybe we don't.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:

We tend to call them "Halls" up here.

Well, yes. But a "hall" in that sense is the entire building. Do we have a name other than "flat" for the suite of rooms around a landing or a corridor or a kitchen? Maybe we don't.
Why would we need another word? Flat is what it is.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Ogiginally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
A social linguist acquaintance confirms this dating. She has just finished a splendid academic paper on the use of "absolutely" as an emphatic positive response, dating it to 1991
I was using it in that sense when I was at college in the late 70's.

M.

I will pass this on to her, as she is jonesing for citable references. Could you let me know the college or the region, or as specifically as possible while respecting the Ship's anonymity rule?
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St. Stephen the Stoned
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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:


I grew up in Portsmouth in a somewhat oversheltered home, and when I when to secondary school and a girl demanded 'jew wannasmay mayf?'
I struggled to respond immediately.
A peanut to the first correct translation.
clue, I had accidently bumped into her in the crowded corridor.

Knowing the lack of consonants in that part of the world, especially in the I' O' Wi', I think she was asking if you wanted a smack in the mouth.

Salted, please, not dry roasted.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'

I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.
'Flat', which in EnZed can be a stand alone house or an apartment, is not used in Oz, except occasionally of an apartment. To share accomodation here is to live in a sharehouse, and therefore to be housemates. Which I have never become used to.

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Nobody said 'half five' before the sixties.

Late 50s, in my recollection.
Possibly earlier than that in Yorkshire. But as I am only mid 50s vintage myself I can't be definitive on that, other than hearing the older generation use the term as I grew up.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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Is the term "handbag" ever used in America? I've just finished reading a book where I was amazed by how much stuff the heroine kept in her "purse". I could only make sense of it by assuming that this was another bit of cross-Pond-confusion.

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Mama Thomas
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# 10170

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It seems to me that "purse" is now somewhat old-fashioned now. The bright young things carry handbags when they carry anything other than a phone.

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mousethief

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All the ladies I know carry purses.

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Ariel
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# 58

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The purse is what most women keep coins and notes in, and it's inside the handbag, over here. I can't remember what they call the purse in America.
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'

I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.
'Flat', which in EnZed can be a stand alone house or an apartment, is not used in Oz, except occasionally of an apartment. To share accomodation here is to live in a sharehouse, and therefore to be housemates. Which I have never become used to.
Eh?

Your Oz must be different from my Oz. People talk about "flats" all the time. More often than "apartments" I would say.

PS Australia definitely does have its regionalisms, as well. Some things vary depending on which state you're from. One of the ones I've heard about is what I call a 'bubbler' = a drinking fountain. Apparently in other parts of the country the term is completely different.

[ 09. October 2012, 13:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The purse is what most women keep coins and notes in, and it's inside the handbag, over here. I can't remember what they call the purse in America.

Wallet.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland

bubble taps = some parts of Victoria

drinking taps = Melbourne

drinking fountain = Perth

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland

And in Wisconsin, in the US.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
drinking fountain = Perth

What the civilized folks in Minnesota call it. [Biased]

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
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Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland

And in Wisconsin, in the US.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
drinking fountain = Perth

What the civilized folks in Minnesota call it. [Biased]

It's a bubbler in Mass. too, although, it is pronounced bubblah. One of the first things I took back when I moved out of New England was my r's. I still talk like a Yankee sometimes, but at least I drive a car rather than a cah, and run a bar rather than a bah.

On the topic of British, or British sounding, accents: My business partner is from NZ, and while his accent has become very americanized, he still sounds foreign and apparently very sexy to the local female population. It's like catnip. [Roll Eyes]

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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Augustine the Aleut, I am pm-ing you.

M.

Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
It's a bubbler in Mass. too, although, it is pronounced bubblah.

And how else would any sensible 21st-century person say it?

Rhoticism is so early-modern! [Two face]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland

And in Wisconsin, in the US.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
drinking fountain = Perth

What the civilized folks in Minnesota call it. [Biased]

Yes, apparently it actually comes from patches of the USA and made its way over here, as it's in fact a trademark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubbler

Although it would be fascinating to know exactly how it managed to hop from Wisconsin all the way to Sydney.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although it would be fascinating to know exactly how it managed to hop from Wisconsin all the way to Sydney.

Qantas.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although it would be fascinating to know exactly how it managed to hop from Wisconsin all the way to Sydney.

Qantas.
Ah yes. They've been flying direct to eastern Wisconsin for decades!

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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It wasn't a single hop.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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We call them drinking fountains in the UK - well we did when we had them in schools.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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AIUI a bubbler is a drinking fountain where the water goes straight up and then falls back down; it's a specific type of drinking fountain.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
We call them drinking fountains in the UK - well we did when we had them in schools.

And parks (probably abandoned even earlier).

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It wasn't a single hop.

Where did it touch down along the way?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I think it might have flown Southwest to LAX.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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