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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Study
SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

As for non-Trinitarians--well, Trinitarian theology has always been one of the basic marks of Christianity, going right back to the baptismal formula. Of course there are plenty of nonTrinitarians in worship on Sunday--there are also plenty of agnostics, synergists, work-your-way-to-heaven-ers, and so forth. Churches can't and shouldn't try to police their attenders. The best you can do is to teach and pray. And there are no doubt plenty of areas where the Lord shakes his head at all of us.

This seems contradictory. On the one hand you say that Trinitarianism is 'one of the basic marks of Christianity', but then you admit that many of the 'Christians' in our churches are not Trinitarians.

Surely, if we're okay about members of our own congregations not being Trinitarians then it ill behoves us to criticise faith groups that aren't officially Trinitarian.

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Lamb Chopped
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Did I say I was okay with it? More to the point, did the Church (in any of its various manifestations) say it was okay with it?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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Avila
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I was in school with a couple of JWs, in 6th form we had a class of 5 in A level maths - me, the 2 JWs, an avowed atheist and a truant. As our teacher had other responsibilities - like starting external exams on time - we were left with our work adn each each other frequently enough. That and free periods in the common room led to lots of conversations.

As suggested above, I was invited to their studies but the 'I'll come to yours if you come to our place' was refused. I seem to recall being told they weren't 'allowed' inside a church.

They were good conversations - and met them at my doorstep too. It was sad and teenage upsetting when they stopped trying to convert me, we were friends and if, from their point of view, I am facing damnation without their insights, well it felt like they had given up on me as a person.

And as a household it seemed.

Since being in the church house I can vouch for the collar not being a deterrant...

[ 09. August 2012, 22:44: Message edited by: Avila ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Did I say I was okay with it? More to the point, did the Church (in any of its various manifestations) say it was okay with it?

The impression given in the quotation above was that you didn't think it was worth making too much fuss about it.

Sometimes it seems as though orthodoxy in these matters is only important at the formal level of church doctrine. As long as the official stance is orthodox, what ordinary Christians actually believe is deemed to be of lesser importance. But one could make the argument that it would be more honest and authentic, if doctrine and actual belief matched each other.

This is what small sects are for, of course: there's no point in being a Jehovah's Witness if you don't actually share their core beliefs, whereas the attraction of being, say, an Anglican, doesn't reside primarily in the official doctrines, which is why it's possible for people to sit happily in the pews without believing in those doctrines....

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Lyda*Rose

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Some churches use kindness, sharing, and teaching to nurture people into orthodoxy. Some require you to sign confessional statements and if you are not on point, you are out on your but. I like the first better.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Lamb Chopped
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I'm not clear how you got the impression I didn't care. I do care, quite intensely as a matter of fact, which is one reason I'm a missionary. I simply don't believe that coercing people is a good or proper thing to do. And what Lyda Rose said.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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SvitlanaV2
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I suppose what we have here are two different ways of creating church allegiance. The mainstream churches lean towards nurturing 'belonging before believing', whereas a group such as the JWs clearly goes for 'believing before belonging'. There are pros and cons with both approaches, it seems.
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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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{1} I seriously doubt one's salvation dangles dangerously upon the pointy meathook of bearing a catalog of absolutely flawlessly sterile correct doctrines in one's head at all times.

{2} That's what matters to me. One's tradition or "flavor" of church is all very nice, can be quite meaningful and inspiring, but what it means to you, personally, eternally, as relates to the Redeemer... that's what matters to me.

{3} Re-read #1.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You need not be too awed by their supposed knowledge of Scripture--because it is, as you say, pre-scripted, it is memorized and about as deep as a frog pond in August. (Considers that) Well, in the Midwest, anyway... If you do engage with them, remember that they are expecting, even possibly hoping, to be persecuted "for the truth." Do nothing that will lend itself to that idea. The more kind, loving, reasonable AND firm you are, the more they will be forced to re-examine their own beliefs.

This matches my experience of talking with Jehovah's Witnesses. When I was younger and probably more naive in the faith I had several Bible studies with a dear old JW lady. But, as I took too long to realise, there was no foundation of relationship - she was only interested in me as long as I was interested in studying the Bible with her (or rather, studying the Watchtower literature which referred to various scattered, often out-of-context Bible verses).

I think if you make friends with someone who is a JW then, sure, seek to show them how the Watchtower Society might not be what it claims to be (and it claims to be God's channel of communication to humanity...). But if people have just knocked on your door - i.e. there's no bond of friendship already in place - I'd be very cautious indeed!

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daisymay

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When she and another younger one (always a different one) come to me, I let them in and get a cup of tea or coffee for them and chat and use my Bible - a different version of theirs, and so it's interesting to them to hear it as I read it to them.

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Spiffy
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A guaranteed deterrent: a Rainbow flag. Works wonders and gets you blacklisted immediately from the JWs. Mormons are a little more tenacious, but again, you can see them coming.

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Lord Pontivillian
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:

Actually, last time they called, Lord P was at home and he got involved in the conversation too. They seemed a bit taken aback by the fact that this obviously young man knew his stuff and could argue his case. I think we're blackballed again....

I am quite pleased that the house is black listed again. It might have been the comments on Arianism, Orthodoxy and general church history that helped! It is a nice thought that we kept them busy for an hour.
I have been accosted by the JW's on the street and they were harder to shake off than a determined telephone-salesperson.

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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I understand that if you buy a clerical collar and wear it when you open the door they will be scared away.

I can confirm that that doesn't work!
Ditto!
I've had visits on a few occasions and wearing a collar at the time or standing next to the "Vicarage" sign doesn't seem to make any difference. Though engaging in friendly conversation and a bit of counter-discussion does. I have on a number of occasions (pre and post ordination) suggested that "how kind of you to offer me your literature - I'll take yours if you'd like to take my gospel of John/Luke etc!" So far the offer has been declined. The most interesting conversations have arisen when my visitors have ventured near to 'who Jesus is' territory, though these conversations tend to be cut short.
I do remember one conversation from a number of years ago (before I was ordained) but when I presumably had been labelled as a "so-called" Christian from prior doorstep conversations, so the opening gambit was along the lines of, "We believe in mission and sharing the faith, don't you?" To which I got in quick with "Well yes I do actually, and we have an Alpha course beginning at our church next week, it would be lovely if you'd like to come and explore the faith?" They left, and I suspect I was 'black-balled' after that as I didn't see them again.

One of our clergy came to a midweek meeting once gigginge to themselves. They had been running out to the meeting, wearing their collar, only to find two JW's at the door standing facing 'The Rectory' sign.

Their opening gambit was 'have you got a faith'

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Lothlorien
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I ca't remember if it was JWs or Mormons , but they met their match in the now ex-Mr L. He was very dogmatic, used verses out of context as proof texts and was easily aroused to anger. After speaking at the door to two callers he was annoyed. Neither had been really listening to what the other side was saying. He started screaming and shouting at them and calling out at the top of his voice that they would all go to hell if they didn't listen to him. The pair escaped down the street while he still yelled at them for a couple of minutes.

I do think the two groups must recognise the marks on the gates from the others. We never had any visitors from either group after that.

Please note: I do not endorse this method of discouragement, but it did work. He has been entirely unrepentant of his behaviour. I did speak to him about it but received almost similar.

[ 23. August 2012, 23:03: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

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recklessrat
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Just to say thanks for all your replies-they have all been read and digested.
My schedule has not coincided with the JWs again since I posted. I will update this thread upon our next inevitable encounter...

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IngoB

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Some armaments:

History of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Distinctive Beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Strategies of the Jehovah's Witnesses

The God of the Jehovah's Witnesses

What is the significance of the number 144,000 to Jehovah's Witnesses?

Why won't Jehovah's Witnesses accept blood transfusions, even when their lives are in jeopardy?

Stumpers for the Jehovah's Witnesses

More Stumpers for the Jehovah's Witnesses

What's a good way to steer a conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my door?

Have at them!

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Lyda*Rose

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I pity the poor fool JWs who knock at your door, IngoB! [Big Grin]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Margaret

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Except that they might well be utterly mystified - the only answer in that list I've looked at so far is the one on blood transfusions and it's completely beside the point. The prohibitions of the Old Covenant are not relevant to JWs unless they've been confirmed by the New Covenant, so they need have no worries (except health ones) about eating fat. The rejection of blood transfusions is based on Acts 15:20, where the new non-Jewish Christians are asked to abstain from "food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." JWs interpret "blood" as meaning taking in blood in any way, either as food (so they don't eat things like black pudding) or through a transfusion. So many well-intentioned mainstream Christians simply don't do their homework on what JWs base their beliefs on.

I do wonder anyway about the value of arguing with JWs; they're using (and usually very familiar with) a different translation of the Bible, one angled to fit their own theology, and starting from a different set of premises, as I realised when I was arguing about the Trinity - my friend kept asking me where God was during the earthly lifetime of Jesus, which made no sense at all to me until I realised too late that his concept of God was very much more bounded than mine.

It seems to me that if we want to plant seeds of doubt and get JWs to start asking themselves questions the best thing we can do is be good Christians. JWs believe that they're the only ones with the Truth and the rest of us are all Babylon, misguided and deceived by Satan. So I try to be friendly and open, but ready to talk about the delight and adventure of reading the Bible for myself, and about the various good things going on at my church. If they start thinking that perhaps the Watchtower Society isn't right about absolutely everything, other things may follow.

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recklessrat
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IngoB, thank you for the links, which I will read this weekend. Much appreciated.

Margaret, I think you have a good point about showing by example and I will certainly be doing my best to treat them in a gentle manner whilst also emphasising all the wonderful things that happen at my church!

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stay simple, remain whole

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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I suppose it doesn't hurt to dig up all the things and times Watchtower publications got wrong, to share with them when they want to hand you a copy of the current stuff. Who knows? If it's Watchtower they might read it, even if it is old.

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Jahlove
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You may care to be aware of their appalling sexism - women are definitely second-class citizens. At their so-called Bible Study evenings, a woman may not read anything if a man is present; he must read even (and I have first-hand experience) if he is barely literate and struggling.

At another meeting, some guy was pontificating about how he and a JW woman were on an outing when they saw a woman meet a man in a car park which, he concluded was an adulterous assignation on the grounds that she was driving an expensive car which must obviously belong to her husband since *a woman can't afford a car like that* [Roll Eyes]

I also saw one so-called *Elder* bully and shame his 11 year old son who had mild learning difficulties for some piece of innocent japery at another of these ghastly meetings.

And as for their *song book*, all I can say is you need cloth ears.

My advice is simply stay away from them.

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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My minister is an enthusiastic Biblical Greek reader. The JW's came to his house one day, started on one of their usual lines and said "that's what the bible originally said".

He pulled out the original Greek and contradicted them. They left.

Opa!

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Lamb Chopped
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Margaret, [Overused]

They are (duh) people too, and often scared people, who really believe that if they don't knock on sufficiently many doors they will be in deep crap with God/the local Kingdom Hall/both. That's what's driving a lot of them, a sense of guilt and fear--not the love and joy that you HOPE will be driving a Christian witness (yes, I know, but never mind). But under those circs, being merciful to JWs is maybe good.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Darllenwr
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Experience talking with them showed that, contrary to expectation, the average JW is not that well aquainted with the Bible, even in his own translation. Yes, they know a lot of proof texts and will happily throw these at you, but ask them to explain the context of the proof text, or the broad sweep of any particular book of the Bible, and you will frequently floor them completely.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, their idea of 'Bible Study' should more accurately be termed 'Watchtower study', since it generally means studying some piece of Watchtower Bible & Tract Society literature, reading selected verses from the Bible to back up what the Watchtower is saying - not my idea of Bible study.

Experience has further shown that you don't have to be able to read NT Greek to seriously throw them with the Greek - an Interlinear Greek / English New Testament is all you need. The hazard in all of this is that it is too easy to descend to point scoring, which helps nobody.

I think my underlying hope in all my contacts with JW's has always been that something I have said will set them thinking for themselves, rather than just parroting and accepting the official JW line on everything.

As an aside, and referring to Lamb Chopped's remarks above, it certainly used to be the case (don't know if it still is) that JW's had to submit regular returns to their Kingdom Hall showing how much door-to-door work they had done, how many copies of the Watchtower or Awake they had 'placed' (theoretically, sold), how many 'Bible Studies' they had conducted or at least instigated and so on. These returns were converted into lifetime records for each individual and essentially constituted their ticket to survive Armageddon (or not, as the case might be). One of the reasons that JW's lived in fear of offending the hierarchy was that their record would be destroyed if they did so. If you believe that your written record is your ticket to salvation ... [Eek!]

Whether this particular threat is still held over them, I do not know. It is hard to imagine a hierarchy such as theirs willingly relinquishing such a powerful hold on its members, but stranger things have been known.

You will probably gather that I am not a particular fan of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of Pensylvania Heights.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I pity the poor fool JWs who knock at your door, IngoB! [Big Grin]

Hmm. I've found so far that the simple statement "I'm a practicing Catholic," with the italics standing for voiced emphasis, stops all further missionary attempts dead in the tracks. I've not tried it on JWs yet, but that sure shut up the Mormons... (I did get a copy of the Book of Mormon out of them before they left. Nice.)

I think next time I will offer to teach them how to pray a rosary. This should be fun. [Big Grin]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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That is still so, Darlienwyr. Box-ticking to Paradise Earth [Roll Eyes]

Ingo: yeah, "you come to Mass with me, I'll come to the Kingdom Hall" gets 'em scuttling off.

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
:

They are (duh) people too, and often scared people, who really believe that if they don't knock on sufficiently many doors they will be in deep crap with God/the local Kingdom Hall/both.

That's what drove me to go through weekly JW lessons for over a year. It was in scorching hot Georgia and the sweet little couple seemed to be in their 80's. How could I turn them away? Besides, my dachshund was in love with them and would throw her head back and howl if they didn't get to come in and sit a while.

As mentioned upthread, the Bible readings were incredibly boring, focused on silly things like just how hurt God must feel not to be called by his proper name, Jehovah. "How would your husband like to be called, Man?"

I never had the heart to really argue with them after they had dedicated their long lives to the faith, but the young men who come to my door now, trying to tell me that the world has never been as bad off, get an earful about the number of smallpox deaths, etc.

There used to be a good website called "Witnessing to the Witnesses," with good rebuttals to their main issues. What troubles me a little about totally blowing up the doctines of young Mormons or JWs is that they rarely seem to leave their faith to turn Lutheran or Anglican but usually throw religion out completely and become atheists. At least I've seen a lot of that.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Which is why, if you CAN build a relationship with them, you ought to do so as firmly and carefully as you can before blowing them totally out of the water spiritually. I mean, you're talking about totally rocking their world, all the way to the foundations. You don't want to grab what little they've got (horrid as it is) without replacing it with something Much Better.

Oh, and in my experience very very few people are ever argued INTO the kingdom of God, though they may be argued out of other cults. But that still leaves them in a world of hurt. Got to have that Christian love, compassion, fellowship, whatever if you have any hope of them ending up in a better place.

[ 27. August 2012, 00:06: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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bib
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My late father who had the gift of the gab and never lost an argument would invite religious callers in and have lengthy conversations with them. Eventually they would be begging to leave -it was hilarious.
My husband has a different way of ridding us of the callers. One day he was working in the garden when he was waylaid by the visitors. When they had well and truly outstayed their welcome he announced that he was going to turn on the sprinkler to water the garden and go inside for his lunch. They could stay in the garden if they wished. He then turned the tap on full. Have you ever seen soaking wet unwanted visitors run away? It was so funny. They never returned.
[Killing me]

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

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A JW Greek New Testament and your Greek New Testament will be exactly the same, however the translations are not. It's a fascinating place to start, esp in 1 John, but it WILL get you on their DoNotCallHere list...and fairly swiftly as well.

I find that the best approach is a personal chat.
Go for doctrine and it's point scoring all the way, no more satisfying than winning a game of darts really. Go for 'deeply held and personal faith' though....and they will bizarely need to leave quite soon.

Which is always sad, as like many other here i would far rather the JWs chat with me, than mither my neighbours ~ many of whom used to give the JWs money merely to go away [Frown]

[ 27. August 2012, 20:01: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Facebook post from a lady from my area:

quote:
... To the two jehovahs whitness ladies who just knocked at my door while my husband and i were in rhe shower and my kids were in the living room playing wii. When a child opens the door for you and their home alarm goes off i would advise you to quickly shut the door untill a dressed adult answers the door if not and you decide to stand there with MY door wide open be prepared to see anything just saying.....they wont be back at my house any time soon! Lol.
I do see that a screaming naked man rushing at you across the front room of a home, jumping over his little children to get to you, might prove a deterrent to further conversation.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
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Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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Or the beginning of a beautiful relationship! [Killing me] (Just shoo the children elsewhere, of course.)

So... what happens when JWs and Mormons meet? [Confused] Do they try to convert each other and how does that go?

[ 04. September 2012, 02:49: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]

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Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Facebook post from a lady from my area:

quote:
... To the two jehovahs whitness ladies who just knocked at my door while my husband and i were in rhe shower and my kids were in the living room playing wii. When a child opens the door for you and their home alarm goes off i would advise you to quickly shut the door untill a dressed adult answers the door if not and you decide to stand there with MY door wide open be prepared to see anything just saying.....they wont be back at my house any time soon! Lol.
I do see that a screaming naked man rushing at you across the front room of a home, jumping over his little children to get to you, might prove a deterrent to further conversation.
I have just thought of a variant - say to the JW that s/he is welcome to come in but we are naturists so s/he will need to take their clothes off in the hall first.

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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I have just thought of a variant - say to the JW that s/he is welcome to come in but we are naturists so s/he will need to take their clothes off in the hall first.

Only the shapely ones, though, lest they take you up on it.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Picture it:

Young, innocent Mormon elders; a couple of shapely (if Mousethief insists) and relatively young and impressionable JWs;

The flaming hotbed of the mansion's living room all four had targeted, in which they accidentally become imprisoned, when an experimental "anti-proseletizer" lockdown security system goes horribly, horribly awry;

They languish, unrescued, for weeks, then months, the homeowners being on the opposite side of the globe on a round-the-world mission trip of their own, among the untouched-by-Christ sheiks of Saudi Arabia...

Time passes. World economies rise and fall. Lengthy gaps in the availability of international transportation mean the homeowners themselves never return.

When their inheriting great-grandhildren finally arrive with the security keys, they discover a new culture in that mansion, born of loneliness and desperation and the hot, hot, hotbed crucible of religion that formed between the two fresh-faced, acne-laden, squeaky-voiced "elders" and the only slightly older but no less innocently zealouos, curvaceous JWs.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Thank you, Janine, for overloading my imagination so early in the morning!

[Eek!]

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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We have nice JW ones who come to my home and we read my Bible, as well as theirs - and now she has been saying that it's not God ruling the world as in Genesis chapter 3, he. (the "serpent" in my Bible) got the two people to disobey God by what they ate, and also in the NT, he tries to get Jesus to do what he suggests.

So what can I explain in reality - we'll meet next week again and I've been told to get the information about that? I want to help them to believe properly in God.

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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Sorry, I don't understand. What's not God?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Is s/he saying that Satan rather than God is ruling this world -- "the Prince of this world"?

Perhaps Satan does have a grip on the throat of the world... but a wider view shows God's grip firmly on the throat of Satan. That's what I get from Scripture, anyway.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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Yes, they are saying that Satan is the one in charge of the world, not God. Still doing lots and running the world, after getting people in the past (in Genesis) to do the wrong things, even if told by God what not to do.

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London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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