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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Children of Alcoholics
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Am I the only one here who's actually relieved that my alcoholic parent is deceased?
Um, no.
My dad had a heart attack, and lingered for a week, during which my mom, sis, and I rubbed his feet, held his hand, stroked his hair, and generally tried to make him comfortable. I showed more affection to my father than I ever had in my life, and certainly more that either one of them gave to me.( we had this bed time ritual where we would trot downstairs and kiss each of our parents on the cheek goodnight, while they sat and stared straight ahead. God, I gotta million of them.)
Anyway, on about day 3 of this vigil, my dad suddenly went from a blank, wild-eyed state to sitting straight up and looking around the room , sharp eyed. He looked straight at me.
"he looks alert!" Mom said.
"He's looking stright at Kelly!"
"he probably think it' s me, " Said my mom. (
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
But he kept looking right at me, and for once in my life I looked him straight in the eye. and I thought, you will never be able to hurt me again.
Adn I didn't feel guilty at all, in fact I got the sense he understood. And I didn't get the feeling he was sorry, but that he knew he couldn't hurt me.
Understand, the last few years in my father's life featured an unusual warm period-- he would actually have gruffly friendly conversations with me, was clumsily affectionate-- he would actually hug me, not just accept a kiss. The last conversation I had with him, he squeezed my hand and demanded I come around for dinner sometime. Squeezed it again and repeated himself-- no, I mean it, come around.
And I still needed that little moment of looking him in the eye and reassuring myself he was weaker than me. And it fucking felt good. And maybe that's why I have less trouble forgiving him than my mother.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Picking out greeting cards for my mother, oh what a pain. I loved my mother, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't stomach giving her one of the "sweetness and light" sentimental cards. I usually defaulted to humerous cards.
Yup.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Every family member gets a funny card from me: sometimes they make noise!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
Wow, I spend ages choosing cards. They're either too loving or too sweet or too 'you're the best Mum EVER!!!' I thought it was just me and that I was over-thinking the whole thing. Now I don't feel so bad.
One of my friends hates Fathers Day because she still misses her dad, despite being in her sixties. She assumes I feel the same way, which isn't exactly true. My dad died three years ago and I do miss him, but I also still feel angry about some of the things he did or didn't do. Did I mention I'm very good at ambivalence?
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
My father is 86 and in poor health. We make a big deal out of Fathers' Day and I always get a gushy, sentimental card, which is the type he always has wanted. No problem with that; in spite of his drinking I feel real love for my father.
Mothers' Day is different. I live a short distance from where my mother is buried, and each year I tell myself that I'll go there on MD or her birthday and plant some flowers. But I never do. Instead, I sometimes think of bringing a bottle of Beefeater gin (her favorite), and pouring it on her grave. But I don't do that either, mostly because Beefeater is expensive.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
Squirrel -
quote:
But I don't do that either, mostly because Beefeater is expensive.
Buy a miniature ... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Mrs. S, pained at the waste of good gin
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
There you go. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I was writing a piece that involved some of my torrid backstory, and a day or so afterward I drove out to my dad's grave, took out a pencil I had in my pocket, and stabbed the turf several times. Wasn't hugely cathartic, but it didn't Hurt anyone, either.
[ 04. September 2012, 18:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
OK, since I have unloaded a whole lot of heavy stuff on y'all I wnt to share a nice one-- I have a strong feelig what happened happened because of the writing I ahve done on this thread, and maybe someone somewhere is praying for me.
I was poking around on my Facebook page, scrolling up and down on past post, looked way,, and looked back to see a really cool post. I smiled and though, "Wow, what a cool person. That's good people. I should friend them. Wonder who it is?"
And I scrolled up a bit, to realize it was an old post of mine that I had forgotten about.
Here's the thing-- I don't think I really understood how deeply I don't believe that until that happened. I have this sneery little voice inside me that catalogues every error, gloats over every failure, and basically talks really nasty to me. The healthy part of me basically has to sneak up and tackle that voice form behind to get me to see what is- well, true. If I reread my FB page as if I were checking up on a possible new contact, I see someone smart, but accessible, passionate, funny, kind, Kid-centered, understanding, and generous. I have flaws-- many flaws-- but that doesn't make any of the above less true.
Maybe it was writing about my father's death. he is dead. Not only can he never hurt me again, but he is in the presence of Love Himself, and can no longer do anything but rejoice in the blessings God has in store for me. I think there was still a little part of me that didn't quite believe that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
My father is 86 and in poor health. We make a big deal out of Fathers' Day and I always get a gushy, sentimental card, which is the type he always has wanted. No problem with that; in spite of his drinking I feel real love for my father.
Mothers' Day is different. I live a short distance from where my mother is buried, and each year I tell myself that I'll go there on MD or her birthday and plant some flowers. But I never do. Instead, I sometimes think of bringing a bottle of Beefeater gin (her favorite), and pouring it on her grave. But I don't do that either, mostly because Beefeater is expensive.
Actually buy a big bottle and a minature, then the first time you take the minature and pour it out. Then refil is from the big bottle ready for the next time. Its the most economical way of doing it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
That's a great idea - a miniature bottle of Beefeater. Considering how much of the stuff Mom could put away, she'd be better off if I doled it out to her in little bits.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
Better still, Squirrel, a miniature of Beefeater and a big bottle of some hideous generic stuff from a supermarket
Mrs. S, cheapskate of this parish
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Yes, Mrs. S! Mom used to flip when some sneaky bartender tried substituting the cheap stuff for Beefeater.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
What do folks think about the notion that alcoholism is a "disease" - one of the things you hear all of the time at Al-Anon. When an alcoholic said something cruel to a family member, the standard response I'd hear was "It's the disease talking." Huh?
I know that the psychiatric profession views alcoholism as a disease, but then again they often change their mind about such matters; witness their views on homosexuality. Some folks comment that the disease model is used in order to get insurance plans to pay for treatment.
What do you think?
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It helps some people. I found it easier to endure the cruelty inflicted on me by remembering that his internal censor was seriously out of whack, and he would never have said or done such things if he had been in his right mind. Not that the evil wouldn't have been there latent as it is in all sinners; but far less of it would have made its way out to be expressed in daylight reality, where we were hurt by it. It was particularly easy to see the disease aspects after he had a formal diagnosis of alcohol induced encephalopathy (basically, brain damage). No doubt it had been present for years before it became clearly unmistakable.
This does not of course let him off the moral responsibility, as he placed himself in that state by his own oft chosen actions. But since i had to forgive him eventually for my own sake (mental health), the disease model made it easier. God can deal with him after the moral judicial model if he wants, but for me that focus leads to unbearable bitterness.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
What do folks think about the notion that alcoholism is a "disease" - one of the things you hear all of the time at Al-Anon. When an alcoholic said something cruel to a family member, the standard response I'd hear was "It's the disease talking." Huh?
What do you think?
I tend to think more in terms of a genetic defect. Some people can drink a lot without becoming addicted, but others can become addicted from the first few drinks. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does explain the patterns that are repeated and why children of alcoholics often go on to become alcoholics themselves or have some other addiction. In my father's case he had uncles who were alcoholics. His own father didn't allow alcohol in the house, but my father became an alcoholic in the military. As LC pointed out, in addition to the damage caused to organs like the liver and kidneys, there is also damage to the brain. I know whatever censor existed in my father at the start, by the end of his drinking years there was no censor.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I think increased abuse of alcohol can definitely cause actual brain damage, and increase the tenancy to "self-medicate." So, yeah, I guess I do believe it is a disease.
On the same note, I think co-dependency-- especially if it starts in the 0-5 age bracket--can fuck with your chemical responses to the point that codependency itself becomes a somewhat physical disease (sleep issues, anger issues, hyper alertness, noise sensitivity --ugh!)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And you hear the phrase "dry drunk", too-- basically someone who quits drinking and discovers they are still pretty much an asshole. You could argue that the drinking was an attempt to stave off the assholishness, but there might be elements of physical, chemical changes that occur when you make your body accustomed to alcohol that remain when you are dry-- so recovery is not just the process of losing the addiction, but of healing up the parts of your body/ psycho chemistry you have been abusing.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think increased abuse of alcohol can definitely cause actual brain damage, and increase the tenancy to "self-medicate." So, yeah, I guess I do believe it is a disease.
Someone I've known for years is in such a state after 40+ years of really heavy drinking that he can barely put together a coherent sentence, and is no longer able to find his way home from the local station. He still manages to locate the off-licence* however.
*liquor store
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
OK, I got a question-- have you ever got the feeling an alcoholic used "blackouts" as an excuse to dodge responsibility for stupid shit they did?
Years ago, another "qualifier" gave me this feeling. Basically I would tell them mean, nasty stuff they had said/ done while they were drunk and they would get this far-away look and stammer"I-I-I- can't remember..." in this Marilyn Monroe voice that just set of my "Bogus!" alarms. Then as we discussed the matter further, they would suddenly remember everything in technicolor detail EXCEPT the nasty shit. And they would effectively craft a whole new memory in which all of the bad stuff was either nonexistent or exaggerated, and they were the victim/ hero of the story.
This had to be one of the most manipulative people I have ever met in my life--I think they wound up believing most of the stories they concocted, it was that bad-- and so, while at first I accepted the claim that blackouts had happened, as time wore on I got skeptical.
[ 08. September 2012, 15:35: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Yes, I have heard the "blackout" excuse. I've also heard similar excuses from those who abuse pain medications.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(sigh) Thank you for that. I brought that feeling up to my shrink (sorry Squirrel, LCSW) at the time it was going on and she just shook her head and told me alcoholics often did have blackouts, you know. YEAH, I know, so explain to me why this feels off!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
OK, I got a question-- have you ever got the feeling an alcoholic used "blackouts" as an excuse to dodge responsibility for stupid shit they did?
Years ago, another "qualifier" gave me this feeling. Basically I would tell them mean, nasty stuff they had said/ done while they were drunk and they would get this far-away look and stammer"I-I-I- can't remember..." in this Marilyn Monroe voice that just set of my "Bogus!" alarms. Then as we discussed the matter further, they would suddenly remember everything in technicolor detail EXCEPT the nasty shit. And they would effectively craft a whole new memory in which all of the bad stuff was either nonexistent or exaggerated, and they were the victim/ hero of the story.
You've just described my father in the later years of his drinking. To be honest, though, I truly believe he was in a blackout during his worst periods as you could see a flash in his eyes of "did I really do that?" and then just as suddenly, the eyes would harden and then his version would come out and he truly believed his version. He'd pick a family member to accuse of making up this horrible story and on one occasion he browbeat a sister in law into apologizing. It was the reason I cut contact with him until shortly before he died.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
You've just described my father in the later years of his drinking. To be honest, though, I truly believe he was in a blackout during his worst periods as you could see a flash in his eyes of "did I really do that?" and then just as suddenly, the eyes would harden and then his version would come out and he truly believed his version.
Ugh. OK, I can believe this. There is still a certain amount of willful falsehood involved, but I guess the better you get at falsehood the less good you get at knowing what the truth is. quote:
He'd pick a family member to accuse of making up this horrible story and on one occasion he browbeat a sister in law into apologizing. It was the reason I cut contact with him until shortly before he died.
This particular person's oft and loudly-told oral history was full of those kind of stories.
Where I need to figure out forgiveness on this one is around the havoc such stories created with some of my friendships-- as long as the qualifier is out of my life I think I can honestly say "God Go with X" but it is hard to look a few people in the eye, because they seemed to eagerly believe the bullshit.And I don't know quite where I stand.Into the God Box with that one.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(sigh) Thank you for that. I brought that feeling up to my shrink (sorry Squirrel, LCSW) at the time it was going on and she just shook her head and told me alcoholics often did have blackouts, you know. YEAH, I know, so explain to me why this feels off!
I am scared by not only what I did in black-out but by the later stages how they slipped into one-another. Days and weeks slipped by without a sober moment. Anyway the reason I dare to speak here is only to say in AA we say of black outs; "Might not be responsible for my actions but I am accountable." In short not remembering what I did does not in anyway absolve me for it.
On the whole this thread is too much for me.
P.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
For what it's worth, that post did help. A lot.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Where I need to figure out forgiveness on this one is around the havoc such stories created with some of my friendships-- as long as the qualifier is out of my life I think I can honestly say "God Go with X" but it is hard to look a few people in the eye, because they seemed to eagerly believe the bullshit.And I don't know quite where I stand.Into the God Box with that one.
Not a lot you can do about the people who believe the bullshit. There were a few who very judgmental because I wasn't around for much of Dad's last 2 years. It either "wasn't Christian" or I wasn't a dutiful daughter to a good man as the alcohol had taken a severe toll on his body. Those I looked in the eye and said you have no idea what went on behind closed doors. One friendship was salvaged over time, another couldn't get over the snow job Dad pulled on her. I'm ok with that as I know the truth and I now know where I really stood with her. As you say "Go with God" applies. I'm fortunate in that most of my friends and by the and close friends of the family knew the real story.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am scared by not only what I did in black-out but by the later stages how they slipped into one-another. Days and weeks slipped by without a sober moment. Anyway the reason I dare to speak here is only to say in AA we say of black outs; "Might not be responsible for my actions but I am accountable." In short not remembering what I did does not in anyway absolve me for it.
On the whole this thread is too much for me.
P.
Thank you for this post and the courage it took to post. I also admire you for accepting the accountability. My father was in and out of AA and that part was never entertained by him. Until the day he died he was never accountable for anything he did and never apologized to anyone. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, Pyx, I do a lot of fucking around and teasing you, but I really do have a huge amount of respect for you, and when you posted what you did it was something I took to heart-- exactly because of who wrote it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You know, I was astonished at how easy it was to forgive an alcoholic once he owned up to his shit--probably because we all have our own shit as well. Pyx_e, please do believe this. It wasn't the alcoholism that made it so impossible to forgive my Dad, or even the crap he did when he either was or was not blacked out. It was the occasions when, confronted with what he had done, in an undeniable obvious-as-the-moon situation, and he knew it, he flat out denied it despite knowing it. When he acknowledged it, it was like "thank God, that's done, we're good again."
Other people's mileage may vary, but the second repentance showed up I was done. No more bitterness. We were actually on the road back to a damn good relationship when he died. I'm sorry there wasn't more time.
[ 09. September 2012, 00:23: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
And for what it's worth, there are total non-drinkers in my life right now who are doing shit and denying it, and who have without the help of alcohol actually managed to contort their brains into really believing the lie they've manufactured--and I'm having exactly the same hell of a time coping with that as I did with alcoholism-fueled denial. How the hell does THAT work? (sorry folks, tangent I know)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Other people's mileage may vary, but the second repentance showed up I was done. No more bitterness. We were actually on the road back to a damn good relationship when he died. I'm sorry there wasn't more time.
My dad never verbally apologized to me, but during the last five years or so of his life he-- became himself. Hard to explain. He made a significant friend, who had similar issues and a testimony of repentance, and he just suddenly decided his favorite drink was herbal tea, maybe a beer once every week or so. And that's when I met the man my dad really was. And I loved him, befriended him.
It is mildly frustrating to think that that was the man who could have raised me, but the miracle that he made his way to the top one way or the other far outweighs that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think maybe some people can't spit out the words "I'm sorry" no matter what they do. My Dad didn't technically ever repent in words. He just suddenly did a 180 (started with remembering my birthday, for the first time in 30 years!), moved on rather suddenly to asking Mr. Lamb to perform his second wedding, took a distinctly strange turn when I said with fear and trembling "you do realize that asking a Christian pastor to do a wedding means a Christian ceremony, right?" and got a resounding "Duh!" as if he never felt any other way--I mean, WTF? What happened to Mr. "I hate the Christian Church and everything connected with it, and you've really disappointed me marrying a pastor of all things"? My head, she was spinning like a top. And then other things that suggested but did not prove Christian conversion and the lifechanging stuff that often accompanies it.
Unfortunately he had less than a year to live at that point, though nobody really knew that--he was in bad shape but had been that way for years. Still, I'll take the signs of repentance without the words over the reverse any day.
[ 09. September 2012, 05:44: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think maybe some people can't spit out the words "I'm sorry" no matter what they do.
Didn't have to. He lived it.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And for what it's worth, there are total non-drinkers in my life right now who are doing shit and denying it, and who have without the help of alcohol actually managed to contort their brains into really believing the lie they've manufactured--and I'm having exactly the same hell of a time coping with that as I did with alcoholism-fueled denial. How the hell does THAT work? (sorry folks, tangent I know)
I had a character in a story I am writing call herself "Cody! Cody cody cody McCoderson of Codepencia, CO."
Because, yeah. The family disease is alcoholism, but the personal disease is codependency. And it's gonna pop up everywhere.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
It either "wasn't Christian" or I wasn't a dutiful daughter to a good man as the alcohol had taken a severe toll on his body. Those I looked in the eye and said you have no idea what went on behind closed doors.
I cut off all contact with my mother when I when was eighteen because I couldn't cope with her anymore. In my defence my entire life before that had been conditioned by her alcoholism (and her appalling taste in men, but thats another story). I hit some kind of wall when my stepfather died in suspicious circumstances and the police made it clear that they thought she was involved in some way. I felt like I was hovering on the edge of some kind of massive breakdown. When she died five years later in an alcohol-related accident I somehow shut off the guilt and buried it away to 'think about later'. I still haven't thought about it.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I just wanted to add that she never, ever acknowledged that she had a problem or sought any kind of help. I could have stuck with someone who was trying, even if it was just now and then, even if they failed.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
It either "wasn't Christian" or I wasn't a dutiful daughter to a good man as the alcohol had taken a severe toll on his body. Those I looked in the eye and said you have no idea what went on behind closed doors.
I cut off all contact with my mother when I when was eighteen because I couldn't cope with her anymore. In my defence my entire life before that had been conditioned by her alcoholism (and her appalling taste in men, but thats another story). I hit some kind of wall when my stepfather died in suspicious circumstances and the police made it clear that they thought she was involved in some way. I felt like I was hovering on the edge of some kind of massive breakdown. When she died five years later in an alcohol-related accident I somehow shut off the guilt and buried it away to 'think about later'. I still haven't thought about it.
There should be no guilt in doing what you have to do to protect yourself from someone who had a repeated pattern of abusing you in some way, shape or form. I spent years desperately trying to have a relationship with my father as well as doing the ever predictable ACoA thing of trying to help make things better for the alcoholic, but when the behavior and abuse grew worse I had to let go and cut off contact for my own sanity and well being. I was fortunate in having advance warning that he was close to dying so I could at least have some last contact. He still hadn't changed, so I still limited that contact.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You know, I was astonished at how easy it was to forgive an alcoholic once he owned up to his shit--probably because we all have our own shit as well. Pyx_e, please do believe this. It wasn't the alcoholism that made it so impossible to forgive my Dad, or even the crap he did when he either was or was not blacked out. It was the occasions when, confronted with what he had done, in an undeniable obvious-as-the-moon situation, and he knew it, he flat out denied it despite knowing it. When he acknowledged it, it was like "thank God, that's done, we're good again."
I never got the behavior change or an acknowledgement of the abuse and while he was alive I struggled with forgiveness as I needed that acknowledgement of the damage done to all in the family. Once he died making that a "never gonna happen" forgiveness came readily. God did several miraculous smack him upside the head attempts to bring healing into his life so at the end when I'm pretty sure he knew his time was extremely limited I'm hoping his relationship with God was made right even if relationships with family weren't.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Frown]](frown.gif) Yeah, it's awful when someone dies with all that crap unaddressed--I was going to say "unresolved" but realized I was talking about fairyland there.
My brother's in this boat, as he cut off all contact with my Dad much later than we older ones did, and so he was still in the "can't be around you at ALL" stage when the signs of repentance began showing. So ten years later he's trying to work things out as best he can.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
A fellow Alanon member told me once, when I was struggling over unresolved anger issues about a dead friend, that I could try specifically applying the Twelve Steps to the situation. Sounds cheesy, but I tried it, and by the time I got to Step Three things had gone from unbearably painful to more comfortably sad.
Twelve Steps
[ 10. September 2012, 20:54: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
I hope this isn't a tangent - if it is, just ignore me - but Mr. S made me watch* the Panorama programme on BBC last night with Joan Bakewell about older people (65+) drinking too much and how it can creep into alcoholism. I really really don't want to go there (my brother is an alcoholic, I mean a serious, signed-off-on-incapacity-benefit-alcoholic) and I find myself very anxious as to knowing where the line comes between drinking more than Government guidelines, and really seriously being alcohol-dependant.
I have various defensive strategies (never drink more than one small glass of wine when I'm driving, and then only if it's a short distance, 3 or 4 alcohol-free days a week, limit the amount I drink at any one time, etc etc) but I do still worry.
*he watched it too, it wasn't a dig at me
Thanks for letting me spill this out ...
Mrs. S, concerned
[ 11. September 2012, 08:05: Message edited by: The Intrepid Mrs S ]
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
@The Intrepid Mrs S. Your story and your concerns are/were my story and my concerns. Different family member, same story. I have met a lot of AA members who found that dealing with an alcoholic friend/relative/partner's drinking, and/or going to Al-Anon made them confront their own drinking.
This is how it was for me.
Some decide that AA is the best fit for them, some attend Al-Anon and AA. We are known as 'double winners'.
I've also heard a lot of Al-Anon members say that they have been/are capable of drinking hard, but it just never 'took' them the way it takes alcoholics.
AA is my main home, but I find Al-Anon group work and literature very helpful with dealing with the alcoholics in my life and childhood related issues.
If drinking worries you, the solution is simple - give it up. You cannot get drunk if you don't pick up the first drink. It is perfectly normal not to drink alcohol. If this thought worries you then it might be a good idea to read the AA Big Book and attend a few open meetings. See if you have any identification.
[ 11. September 2012, 11:02: Message edited by: Thyme ]
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
PS, remembered too late, I meant to add:
Regarding crossing the line: My father never meant to cross that line. It happened without him realising it.
I never meant to cross the line. Like you I thought I was in control. Until I realised I wasn't. I'm grateful to my father for showing me where I was heading before it got too bad.
We have a saying in AA and Al-Anon - 'the abnormal becomes normal'. It is very insidious.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Some of it is likely to be genetic, too. We have an American Indian background (among other things). That side of the family is virtually all alcoholic or having other addictions. My mother warned me of it, and I've warned my son, not to think that we can drink, smoke, etc. like "normal people." Because for whatever reason, once we get started, we don't stop. And so we rarely have wine, etc. in the house--mainly for anniversaries and such.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
I have various defensive strategies (never drink more than one small glass of wine when I'm driving, and then only if it's a short distance, 3 or 4 alcohol-free days a week, limit the amount I drink at any one time, etc etc) but I do still worry.
Mrs. S, concerned
In addition to the good advice already posted, it's this statement that adds a bit of concern to me. If there is a detailed defensive strategy in place, it does seem in the back of your mind that alcohol may already be a problem, though I'm not saying it is. You may not have a problem going 3 or 4 days without alcohol but would giving up alcohol or limiting it only to special occasions be a problem? Is the alcohol worth the worry you're experiencing? Just something else to think about.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
I have various defensive strategies (never drink more than one small glass of wine when I'm driving, and then only if it's a short distance, 3 or 4 alcohol-free days a week, limit the amount I drink at any one time, etc etc) but I do still worry.
Mrs. S, concerned
In addition to the good advice already posted, it's this statement that adds a bit of concern to me. If there is a detailed defensive strategy in place, it does seem in the back of your mind that alcohol may already be a problem, though I'm not saying it is. You may not have a problem going 3 or 4 days without alcohol but would giving up alcohol or limiting it only to special occasions be a problem? Is the alcohol worth the worry you're experiencing? Just something else to think about.
Well, that's rather the point, isn't it - is the fact that I am concerned a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Does seem a bit of a no-win situation!
I read Clarissa Dickson Wright's autobiography, 'Spilling the Beans', where she talks very honestly about how alcoholics have an entirely different relationship with alcohol than ordinary drinkers do, and that was really very illuminating indeed. And I also know that I am not as addictive a personality as my brother, while acknowledging some similarities (as LC says, there's a genetic component). So, I shall keep the situation under close review.
Really, many thanks for the helpful advice.
Mrs. S, counting on her fingers!
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Well, that's rather the point, isn't it - is the fact that I am concerned a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Does seem a bit of a no-win situation!
Mrs. S, counting on her fingers!
Not really a no-win. What I meant (and probably should have said) is that many people who do have an alcohol problem most often do have detailed plans that allow them to 1) live a normal life to the outside world and 2) have a sense of security that they don't have an alcohol problem. My father was one and I know others who managed their intake to keep appearances and allowed them to believe they didn't have a problem. If alcohol is not causing family problems or other outside problems you might very well have not inherited the gene that snagged your brother. You shouldn't have to have constant worry in the back of your mind. You're self aware where many are not. Keep that self awareness and you should be in good shape. Give up the alcohol if or when the worry becomes too much. From what you've said you can also trust your husband to let you know.
[coding fixed]
[ 11. September 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
The little aphorisms that really struck home to me was
If alcohol is costing you more than money then it is time to worry.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
Well, that's rather the point, isn't it - is the fact that I am concerned a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Does seem a bit of a no-win situation!
Mrs. S, counting on her fingers!
Not really a no-win. What I meant (and probably should have said) is that many people who do have an alcohol problem most often do have detailed plans that allow them to 1) live a normal life to the outside world and 2) have a sense of security that they don't have an alcohol problem. My father was one and I know others who managed their intake to keep appearances and allowed them to believe they didn't have a problem. If alcohol is not causing family problems or other outside problems you might very well have not inherited the gene that snagged your brother. You shouldn't have to have constant worry in the back of your mind. You're self aware where many are not. Keep that self awareness and you should be in good shape. Give up the alcohol if or when the worry becomes too much. From what you've said you can also trust your husband to let you know.
[coding fixed]
Thank you Niteowl
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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