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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Well that's that then.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Got to church this morning - no Sunday School set out. We check it's the right week (they can only manage once a month) - yep. Ask the Rector - "The PCC has pulled it."
No they haven't, and I know that because I'm on the damned PCC and was at the last meeting. I do know that I made a fairly impassioned (at a CofE PCC meeting? Shirley some mistake!) point that (a) if the 1st Sunday was billed as "All Age" then not making it as tedious as the Parliament channel at 3am during a debate on obscure bits of company law might be appreciated and (b) we do actually need people to do the Sunday School (we've done it for 8 years and it really doesn't work with our kids making up most of the attenders).
And I do know that they were struggling to find anyone willing to do it, even as a one-off. Even with there only being 12 in an entire year.
So that's that. I can only conclude that the new Rector doesn't really want us, so we've left him to his congregation of septuagenarians and older - many of them fine people, but they're all there is - and pissed off down the road to the next village.
Gah. They wonder why the church is empty of anyone under 50...
[ 21. October 2012, 19:17: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I feel for you, I really do, it's hard work trying to keep really young children productively occupied in a long church service. However, many churches look to the parents themselves to organise the Sunday School provision, why would anyone else be motivated to do it? Did you run the Sunday School when you didn't have young children? If you didn't, then why expect other people without children to do it?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Our church feels like it has a similar attitude sometimes - you have my sympathy. Wife and I (mostly wife now all the 11+s stopped coming) run it alternate weeks with another couple of sisters, and once a month (all age...aarrrgh) we all have a week off.
I don't blame no-one else wanting to get involved in some ways - but in others, why are they bothering about the building if they accept a demographic which'll be 90% dead in 10 years?
Sunday school is often like one of those 'really don't want to do' things which is good in retrospect. And it's the only thing which has driven (mostly in blind panic) the wife and I to bible study together, which has been a real, genuine blessing.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
When we started at the church, there were no children. There were only children to do a Sunday School for once we sprogged. We only stopped doing it when it became clear that when Mrs LB and I ran it our kids - especially the eldest - found behaving appropriately extremely difficult - I think he just couldn't quite cope with the Parents Acting Like Teachers environment.
The rest of the church does need motivation for this anyway - it's not just about parents being able to keep children occupied - it's about there being a next generation in the church at all.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
However, many churches look to the parents themselves to organise the Sunday School provision, why would anyone else be motivated to do it?
This makes me profoundly glad to be in a church where there is no expectation that parents of Sunday School age children are involved in the Sunday School. I don't think any of the people who run the kids' work are parents of the kids who attend.
We're very lucky, and it's a big church with lots of willing students to help in uni term time. Too evo for your tastes though I suspect Karl!
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I completely disagree that parents should have to organise Sunday School themselves. At my church all the teachers are the child free or one or 2 have adult children. It's about service and giving, ya know those things Jesus told us about. A number of parents of the under 5s voluntarily stay with their kids during SS but they look after their own kids and don't have to do any of the organising.
Kids matter not just because they're the future of the church, but they're also people made in the image of God and should be loved and cared for in church. Gheesh I can't believe that they can't rope someone in once a month.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
It's not just Sunday school that is often run by parents. Many of the secular children's organisations I know, are run by parents too.
It is often about parents seeing a need and getting on with providing it.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think Zach and Chorister are seeing how it is. Others see how it ought to be.
What happens when those seeing the need can no longer provide it, for whatever reason? That's where we found ourselves.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
When I used to run a Sunday School class I was only a few years older than the children I taught. I suspect that Health and Safety, CRB and similar fears wouldn't allow under 18s to take sole charge these days, which is a shame because it's the teenagers who are the most willing and church youth work is often the catalyst for them going into teaching as a career (it was for me). In recent times, CRB has caused reluctance by all sorts of people to spontaneously work with children/youth. Not sure what the answer to that is.
It's the child-free adults who help with the children in the choir, but our Sunday School teacher has a young child of her own. She is so good with them and I'm sure much of that is because she knows exactly how children of that age think.
When I was no longer able to teach at Sunday School, because I joined the choir full-time, I was able to help at - and even run - a holiday club. This may be the answer for churches who cannot sustain a weekly children's group. One-day workshops before major festivals, or one-week clubs in the school holidays can involve more people in the project and lead to more intensive work than you can do in 40 minutes while the main service is progressing.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Or maybe not. Now we've left, I think the next youngest regular attender is about 75.
Not entirely true, but it's the way it's heading. There's one family with grown up children, who make up most of the altar party, who seem to have managed to fit in, but other than that. We tried the altar party approach but boy #1 loathed it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When I used to run a Sunday School class I was only a few years older than the children I taught. I suspect that Health and Safety, CRB and similar fears wouldn't allow under 18s to take sole charge these days, which is a shame because it's the teenagers who are the most willing and church youth work is often the catalyst for them going into teaching as a career (it was for me). In recent times, CRB has caused reluctance by all sorts of people to spontaneously work with children/youth. Not sure what the answer to that is.
It's the child-free adults who help with the children in the choir, but our Sunday School teacher has a young child of her own. She is so good with them and I'm sure much of that is because she knows exactly how children of that age think.
When I was no longer able to teach at Sunday School, because I joined the choir full-time, I was able to help at - and even run - a holiday club. This may be the answer for churches who cannot sustain a weekly children's group. One-day workshops before major festivals, or one-week clubs in the school holidays can involve more people in the project and lead to more intensive work than you can do in 40 minutes while the main service is progressing.
An under-18 cannot be with children unsupervised with regards to CRB checks etc.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Surely part of the point of Sunday School is, along with teaching the children, giving the parents a break and allowing them to concentrate on the service? I don't entirely understand expecting the parents to take care of Sunday School provision. Parents still need CRB checks to teach other people's children so unless it is literally one family (in which case I'm not sure there is a need for Sunday School in the first place), you may as well have a designated Sunday School teacher.
What is the room layout like? We have our children (two families' worth usually so 5 children maximum) in a little section to the side formed by rearranged pews - most of our children are very little and since our church hall is up a flight of stairs, this is unsuitable. We don't have Sunday School as such - just toys, colouring-in supplies and children's Bible stories for them to read themselves. However I would be interested in changing this myself (I am a newcomer to this church).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I completely disagree that parents should have to organise Sunday School themselves. At my church all the teachers are the child free or one or 2 have adult children. It's about service and giving, ya know those things Jesus told us about. A number of parents of the under 5s voluntarily stay with their kids during SS but they look after their own kids and don't have to do any of the organising.
Kids matter not just because they're the future of the church, but they're also people made in the image of God and should be loved and cared for in church. Gheesh I can't believe that they can't rope someone in once a month.
For the sheer novelty value of it, I am moved to type 'what Evangeline said'.
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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Dormouse
Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954
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Posted
I was expected to run Sunday School because I was a teacher. Not enough then, that I taught all week, I was expected to teach on Sunday too. And on my weeks off, I took the service, as I was an LLM.
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What are you doing for Lent?
40 days, 40 reflections, 40 acts of generosity. Join the #40acts challenge for #Lent and let's start a movement. www.40acts.org.uk
Posts: 3042 | From: 'twixt les Bois Noirs & Les Monts de la Madeleine | Registered: May 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I had a two year old, a baby and a class of 30 reception children (I worked full time) and I ran a Sunday School of 60 children. I have NO idea how I did it.
Now I only work 2 days a week and my boys have flown the nest - but I most certainly wouldn't have the energy to take a Sunday School class.
I think it's an age issue!
[ 22. October 2012, 09:48: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Over the last few years we've left churches three times (OK, two of those were the same church as we went back).
The first move was almost entirely because of lack of provision for children during the service, and the resistance offered to any attempt to provide such provision (at least, provision on the terms of the stalwarts of the church). We'd had a large Sunday School (relative to the size of the congregation at least) when I started there. But, as the kids grew up there were only a few younger children to take their place, and the congregation got smaller and older, it folded almost by default - the model of age differentiated classes with several teachers was no longer viable. Even worse, without any provision the few kids there stayed in during the whole service, and parents got a very definite "you're not welcome here" look when there was even just a squeak. We made several suggestions of things that could be done that we know have worked elsewhere (eg: space at the back with soft cushions/toys where kids could play quietly under supervision while parents still participate in service; getting a folder of activities such a Bible story, colour in stuff, quiz etc then if several children do turn up someone could take them out to do the prepared activities otherwise they could be done in the pews and/or the space at the back). We were given the very clear message that as the onl parents still in the church we would have to organise and run any childrens activity, but that that would only be on the model they were used to with the kids taken out after the first couple of hymns. The final straw was we actually got a couple of people to volunteer to help look after kids, we got hold of all the forms for the background checks and had them filled out - only for the church secretary to refuse to sign the bit he needed to. We left to another church in the same denomination, which we knew had a lot of kids but was a bit of a drive away.
We didn't stick there for very long, not even a year, for a variety of reasons that were not all to do with the kids - though the attitude to children and communion was an issue for us there. So, back to the first church with a "we're here as we are, live with it" attitude. Then the minister retired, we went into vacancy and two things happened - one was that we found there were a bunch of attitudes in the church that meant we simply couldn't stay there, and we found that the reports about the other church in town (very small, very old, slowly dying off) were wildly inaccurate. So we moved again to a very small church (congregation ~20), old congregation (we celebrated another 90th birthday this weekend). But, a church that wants to still be here beyond the next decade, a church with two people willing to lead Sunday School (even when it's just our two there, though there are some other kids who come along fairly regularly), a church where a bit of noise from kids when they're in church is not only tolerated but the people there enjoy having the kids around.
I suppose the moral of our experience is that you can't judge a book by the cover. The size of church, age of congregation, style of worship etc are largely irrelevant - if the people there want the church to be around beyond the next decade, if they want to see kids and younger people (including the parents of kids) in their church, then they will welcome kids and even if they can't manage a regular Sunday School will accomodate children somehow.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Before we had children of our own, my husband and I were leaders of the teenage youth group and taught teenage Sunday School. It was only a few hours a week, and it was a pleasant change from our usual daily routine. (We also gained valuable experience with teenagers which came in handy later.)
After we had our own children, other childless people taught ours, as we had taught the teenagers. It is good for the children and the childless adults to spend time together in church.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So that's that. I can only conclude that the new Rector doesn't really want us, so we've left him to his congregation of septuagenarians and older - many of them fine people, but they're all there is - and pissed off down the road to the next village.
Best of luck with the next village. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
We tried the altar party approach but boy #1 loathed it.
I agree no one approach can suit every child / family. I once went to a church where families were told they HAD to put the children into the Sunday School, whether they wanted to be there or not. Taking no account of different ages or personality styles. Some children don't want to be colouring in pretty pictures about Jesus, they want to be part of a more adult understanding of the faith. But others would be bored rigid without age-appropriate things to do.
My own church's approach probably doesn't cover all bases, but there are three options - to stay in the main service (children's corner towards the front of the church available); to go into the vestry for age-appropriate activities (which are shared with the rest of the congregation at the end of the service); or to join the choir / acolytes with a real, responsible job to do.
All these activities seem to appeal to the quieter families of the town, with several other churches providing the all-singing, all-dancing, more extrovert options for more lively children / families.
One church probably cannot provide for all, but can work in partnership with other churches in the area so all bases are covered. We have a cross-church youth group for example, as there are not enough teenagers in each individual church to make several groups viable.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
I know this is a bit of a tangent but I cannot get my head round the rector blaming the PCC for pulling the Sunday School when you are a member and knew it had not been discussed!! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I do hope the church in the next village is more welcoming to you all.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
You soon get people very reluctant to serve on the PCC when they get blamed for things they didn't do.
Do these village churches still work in isolation from each other? In my area, they are grouped together. So you would have one aiming to be experts in eg. the elderly, another one focussing on youth, etc. There would be team meetings between all the village churches and they would be headed up by one priest-in-charge.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
I know this is a bit of a tangent but I cannot get my head round the rector blaming the PCC for pulling the Sunday School when you are a member and knew it had not been discussed!!
I do hope the church in the next village is more welcoming to you all.
I can't, of course, be sure, but what I think happened was this:
1. KLB raises the September All Age Service That Wasn't at the PCC meeting later that month. KLB also explains that Mrs KLB and he may have to consider finding someone else because our current churchgoing habits are putting our kids off the idea. By this point, September Sunday School has just happened, and, actually, quite enjoyed by our kids. This is also mentioned. KLB possibly over-eggs the pudding by use of the term "tedious" wrt to the supposed "all age" service, but felt it had to be said*
2. Rector says he has people until November but then nothing, but is still looking.
3. First Sunday in October comes and goes. We skive, because we have lost confidence that the "All Age Service" is anything of the kind. We also have nieces and nephew staying and don't fancy having six fractious kids in the pews.
The above points are matters of record.
Now comes my suspicion.
4. October SS (i.e. yesterday) approaches. Either:
4a. Rector suspects we've already scarpered; knows one of the other two kids is down for the Altar Party, learns that the other one can't make it anyway, assumes there won't actually be any kids and tells whoever was meant to be doing it not to bother;
4b. Whoever was meant to be doing it forgets/can't do it, Rector thinks "not to worry; they'll probably not turn up".
5. We turn up, Rector thinks "Oh Feck!" and says first thing that comes into his head.
I do think he has given up trying to get something going (he's said that he's not inclined to go overboard providing for the families of the parish since they don't come to church; yes, I know of Catch 22) and it's a weight off his mind if we do jump ship.
*Actually, I FB'd the following status immediately we got home and had some after after church coffee coffee**:
Karl Liberal Backslider
2 September
A letter to Viz' Letterbox said "I saw a sign outside a church saying 'Church - it may surprise you!'. They were right. I went and it was far more tedious than I had expected."
The writer must have wandered into our gaff on a day like today.
**that phrase does actually make sense. Actually, it's more often after after church tea coffee, because their coffee is undrinkable.
[ 22. October 2012, 22:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
You soon get people very reluctant to serve on the PCC when they get blamed for things they didn't do.
Do these village churches still work in isolation from each other? In my area, they are grouped together. So you would have one aiming to be experts in eg. the elderly, another one focussing on youth, etc. There would be team meetings between all the village churches and they would be headed up by one priest-in-charge.
There is no team. There is the Rector. The churches work in isolation; we only met the PCCs of the other ones when we were putting together the spec for the new Rector.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
Do not assume that because I am married without children that I can do sunday school - this logic plagued me as a 30 something single too.
Perhaps the best thing to do would be for me to avoid 'family friendly' churches and stick to the variety at my inclusive one.
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curious
Shipmate
# 93
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Posted
(Shoot me down in flames)
Why on earth do we think that children are not as deserving of teaching/participation/serving within the church as adults? And why do we expect only parents to enable this? It's a WHOLE CHURCH issue.
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Erin - you are missed more than you could know. Rest in peace and rise in glory - to provide unrest in the heavenly realms.
Posts: 1372 | From: Betwixt and between | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
And how to include the children in a meaningful way, without boring the adults witless? (And vice versa, of course.)
I notice the theme for next week's Songs of Praise is 'the single life' - a worthy topic when many churches think it's all about Families.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
And how to include the children in a meaningful way, without boring the adults witless? (And vice versa, of course.)
I went back to my old church yesterday to deputise for my successor in the choir. We had a story sermon involving the children; great idea, but it went on! The organist, who was also a deputy for the day, asked me in a whisper if it was always like this....
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Vaguely updatey
I was at a Fencing training day, but Mrs Liberal Backslider took the kids to the Order of the Black Sheep Eucharist. It doesn't have any separate provision, but it's only half an hour, there's no sermon or singing of hymns, and they even project the words of the Eucharistic prayer rather than say them out loud.
Boy #1 thought it was a lot better; it didn't go on for ages, there wasn't some adult giving a talk that would make his teachers seem interesting by comparision, no songs either silly, unknown or incomprehensible, and he was more involved because there were film clips and things to read for himself and so on.
Fascinating. I'm sure most of the denizens of Ecclesiantics would react as if we'd sacrificed a kitten to the Flying Spaghetti Monster whilst dancing naked with pole-dancers dressed up as roller-skating angels or something, but it raises an important issue.
I've blogged about the possible futility of all-age worship and about how we should try anyway and how the church is committing suicide, maybe but never had quite seen the first post as a possible resolution to the issues raised in the later two.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
I have to say that Mr. S and I, and various of our friends who have grown-up children but no grandchildren (yet) have abandoned AAW*. It's just BAD for my blood pressure to see little ones running riot, up on the dais and in the chancel, while their parents do nothing to restrain them. When the Youth Orchestra is playing I'm worried the littlies will pull a music stand and/or microphone stand down on them, apart from anything else.
So I decided, they don't need me scowling at them - the church is pretty full for most morning services - and now we cherry-pick which services we go to. I don't want to be one of these people vehemently opposed to everything that I personally don't like - but there has to be something to make you feel when you come out of church that that was an hour and a half well-spent, and after AAW that is emphatically not the case, or we'll all end up Living Our Religion In Our Own Homes, i.e. not at all.
Sadly every church seems to have decided that first Sunday is AAW day, so those Sundays are a bit of a religious desert.
*Shouldn't ALL services be all-age worship?
Sorry for the rant...
Mrs. S, serene to the end
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Can I deconstruct this a bit? I think it raises a lot of questions.
quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Mrs S:
I have to say that Mr. S and I, and various of our friends who have grown-up children but no grandchildren (yet) have abandoned AAW*. It's just BAD for my blood pressure to see little ones running riot, up on the dais and in the chancel, while their parents do nothing to restrain them.
If the service is truly "all age", then "restraining" should not be coming into it. I still feel that if there's much need for "restraining" then the kids who need to be "restrained" are not being engaged. This is still not a service for them, despite the supposed inclusivity of the AAW concept.
quote:
When the Youth Orchestra is playing I'm worried the littlies will pull a music stand and/or microphone stand down on them, apart from anything else.
So I decided, they don't need me scowling at them - the church is pretty full for most morning services - and now we cherry-pick which services we go to. I don't want to be one of these people vehemently opposed to everything that I personally don't like - but there has to be something to make you feel when you come out of church that that was an hour and a half well-spent, and after AAW that is emphatically not the case, or we'll all end up Living Our Religion In Our Own Homes, i.e. not at all.
This is what a lot of people are already in danger of, not because of AAW, but because of our entire offering. What you describe, coming out of church feeling that that was an hour and a half well spent, is emphatically something that we do not feel after an hour and a half of trying to "restrain" the kids, nor is it something they feel after a service.
quote:
Sadly every church seems to have decided that first Sunday is AAW day, so those Sundays are a bit of a religious desert.
You'll survive. I'm not sure that a lot of people with children with. Actually, I know they're not. They're voting with their feet; they're Not Here.
quote:
*Shouldn't ALL services be all-age worship?
Sorry for the rant...
Mrs. S, serene to the end
Yes, they should. They should engage the entire worshipping community. The only difference between AAW and non-AAW services in this regard, in my experience, is that in the former the parents feel a bit more licence to let their kids be kids - what you call "running riot". Problem is, the restraining that goes on in non-AAW services and the "running riot" that goes on in AAW services are symptoms of exactly the same thing - our service forms, even with the addition of a story about the church mouse and an action song - are utterly unengaging for most kids. Not to mention most adults.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
quote:
If the service is truly "all age", then "restraining" should not be coming into it. I still feel that if there's much need for "restraining" then the kids who need to be "restrained" are not being engaged. This is still not a service for them, despite the supposed inclusivity of the AAW concept.
I disagree here, in that I don't think that stopping them running into the chancel is excessive restraint - but rather than argue about it, I'd prefer not to go. There are other services for me to go to. Usually, the kids get the story and the action song and then go out to various activities, which is okay.
And as you say, if they aren't engaged by it, we certainly aren't.
Mrs. S, Grumpy Old Woman of this Parish
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I think its different usage of restraint. Karl is using it literally to mean physically stopping a child from crossing the chancel. Karl is arguing that kids should be so involved in the service that they do not indulge in such behaviour. So his none use of restraint is because it is unnecessary.
You are meaning however action that stops children from running across the chancel, whether that is literally restraining them or getting them involved in a service so they do not think of doing it (shall we say interest-based restraint). Karl is arguing for the second of these against the first.
Physical restraint is in my opinion a bad option for everyone including scowling adults as the child nearly always becomes more disruptive rather than less. However mental/interest/diversionary restraint are really part of what makes a good service.
Jengie
p.s. I do think adults have gone soft since we started having Sunday School/Junior Church during the service. It is less than a century ago worship meant everyone together and that included the services that had an hour sermon.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think my point is that if kids are running into the Chancel the problem is not that kids are running into the Chancel - that's just a symptom. The problem is that the kids are bored so are ignoring the service and making their own entertainment. Restraining them may stop the symptom, but it doesn't address the underlying issue.
We will not retain kids who are so bored that they run around in the Chancel, nor ones who are prevented from doing so by their parents but are equally disengaged from what's going on. I don't think what happened 100 years ago is necessarily informative; back then there was feck all else to do on a Sunday and within certain societal groupings church/chapel was what you did. Neither of these are now true, and if folk are bored rigid, regardless of age, they'll stay in bed/go to the football/go down the pub.
Our churches are nearly empty and churchgoing an unusual thing to do precisely, IMO, because we have mistakenly thought that what worked 100 years ago should work today.
[ 30. October 2012, 16:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Our churches are nearly empty and churchgoing an unusual thing to do precisely, IMO, because we have mistakenly thought that what worked 100 years ago should work today.
Or, even what 'worked'* 50 or 20 years ago should work today. IME, most people in church think what we should be doing with kids is what they remember happening when they were kids, or when they were young parents and someone took care of the kids on Sunday morning. The thought that that practice was itself different from the practice when their parents and grandparents were kids is something they're almost certainly unaware of. Let alone allowing that to suggest that changing practice every generation or two is normal, and therefore a change in practice may be needed again.
* ie: what the practice was, even if that practice resulted in the vast majority of children in the church packing it in as soon as they could.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Indeed. I think part of the problem is that we tend to gear our services to the people who currently attend - not entirely unsurprisingly! The problem comes in because these are a self-selecting sample - the people who aren't engaged by what we're offering aren't in it. Mrs Backslider is particularly aware of this; she knows lots of other parents through the school run, but could not really have suggested to any of them that they come to our parish church. We only carried on for nine years through sheer bloody-mindedness and hope.
Unfortunately calling for change can come across as "you're not meeting MY needs" - and to be fair, it's at that point that an individual makes noises or leaves. If the church were thriving and full and had people from across the community then I'd just say "it's not about me" and put up or shut up. But it's not about me; it's about the 1,950 out of 2,000 people in the village who never darken the church doors outside of school events there. I daresay this pattern is pretty normal, but few people seem willing to ask the question why. Give a PCC a requirement that they formulate a mission plan for reaching out to the community and what you'll actually get half the time is a study in advanced navel-gazing.
I think much of the answer is in the aforementioned letter to Viz. It's funny because it's true.
[ 31. October 2012, 10:57: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
I read your post about this last night.
I think the problem is the whole idea of a service. What is a service? However left-field or off-the-wall your ideas, you're probably thinking of something with some form of structure, things that happen in order, and people either sitting, standing or whatever at appropriate times. That's what makes AAW futile - most children just aren't going to do that. They won't do things because they're meant to, but only because they want to. Cajolery can work, but only so far.
And it doesn't make it any better if the content's aimed towards children, because they either get bored as soon as the grown-up bit starts, or else there isn't a grown-up bit and there's nothing for the adults at all. And no, there isn't a happy middle ground - it's virtually impossible to find anything that's appropriate for just the children, from toddlers to teens. AAW might theoretically be possible, but the word "service" kills it dead.
Yes, children can and do sit still and behave at school, but leaving aside the assumptions about good behaviour equalling immobile silence, there are two important differences. First, everything that happens at school is appropriate for their age and engages them (carrot), and second, they know who's in charge and that they'll be in trouble if they act up (stick). Both are lacking in church.
Mind you, AAW is fine as long as I don't have to put up with it - you should hear me on the subject of some of the things my boys get taught in Sunday School. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Wot the Great Gumby said
Mrs. S, wondering why she couldn't put it like that
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Mind you, AAW is fine as long as I don't have to put up with it - you should hear me on the subject of some of the things my boys get taught in Sunday School.
I used to go to a church which prided itself on how to nurture children and young families. But, ultimately, it was problems with the theology which made us leave. It's all very well having child-friendly activities, but if they are taught it's OK to bully those who are different, and your children start picking up on and copying those attitudes (in our experience around age 9-10 is where this starts to get really tricky), then it's better to go to a more formal church which teaches love and tolerance to all. Child-friendliness is more than just providing lots of kiddy activities, it also means freedom from inculcation of abusive attitudes.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Or from being taught the Bible is so right that evolution is wrong. (Yes, that's what made me fall out the last time, when my daughter was of an age that she was forced out into the children's groups - she wanted to stay in and would have loved the choir or being an acolyte - but they still got dragged out to the "better for them" children's groups)
[ 01. November 2012, 09:58: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Mind you, AAW is fine as long as I don't have to put up with it - you should hear me on the subject of some of the things my boys get taught in Sunday School.
I used to go to a church which prided itself on how to nurture children and young families. But, ultimately, it was problems with the theology which made us leave. It's all very well having child-friendly activities, but if they are taught it's OK to bully those who are different, and your children start picking up on and copying those attitudes (in our experience around age 9-10 is where this starts to get really tricky), then it's better to go to a more formal church which teaches love and tolerance to all. Child-friendliness is more than just providing lots of kiddy activities, it also means freedom from inculcation of abusive attitudes.
Can you expand on that? What sort of fucked up theology was that?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I read your post about this last night.
I think the problem is the whole idea of a service. What is a service? However left-field or off-the-wall your ideas, you're probably thinking of something with some form of structure, things that happen in order, and people either sitting, standing or whatever at appropriate times. That's what makes AAW futile - most children just aren't going to do that. They won't do things because they're meant to, but only because they want to. Cajolery can work, but only so far.
And it doesn't make it any better if the content's aimed towards children, because they either get bored as soon as the grown-up bit starts, or else there isn't a grown-up bit and there's nothing for the adults at all. And no, there isn't a happy middle ground - it's virtually impossible to find anything that's appropriate for just the children, from toddlers to teens. AAW might theoretically be possible, but the word "service" kills it dead.
Yes, children can and do sit still and behave at school, but leaving aside the assumptions about good behaviour equalling immobile silence, there are two important differences. First, everything that happens at school is appropriate for their age and engages them (carrot), and second, they know who's in charge and that they'll be in trouble if they act up (stick). Both are lacking in church.
Mind you, AAW is fine as long as I don't have to put up with it - you should hear me on the subject of some of the things my boys get taught in Sunday School.
I say a lot of that on my blog. I use "service" in the widest possible sense of the word, for want of something more suitable.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Karl
Would you mind being a nice guy please and put a link to your blog in your sig. It helps when you refer to it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can you expand on that? What sort of fucked up theology was that?
Women and Gays for a start. Followed by Catholics, Liberals, Choristers, Liturgists - Need I go on?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I'm struggling with the Sunday School thing just now.
One of my congregations showed some interest - apparently - in starting a Sunday School so I worked over the summer visiting the families, researching materials, and putting together info meetings and recruiting volunteers etc. I hoped that despite all the leg-work being down to me, someone would at least want a Sunday School enough to do something about it and we were partially successful.
We've managed to get a class running once a month, for two months in a row (big woo!) - but nobody for November, so I'm going to have to announce in church on Sunday that the projected class has to be cancelled because there's nobody to lead it. As we're not doing a December class because of how December services work, our next Sunday School will be in January. Or maybe not.
We have a nice little group of the right age of children, who really enjoy the sessions; and a handful of volunteer assistants. But so far only two people from the whole parish willing to lead a 40 minute session, once a quarter.
I had to lead the first class, even though I normally have three church services on a Sunday morning. Ended up having to bring in a reader to cover the service while I did Sunday School (which I LOVED! So much more fun than church!). But as I'm on holiday this month, that's not even an option this time.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I say a lot of that on my blog. I use "service" in the widest possible sense of the word, for want of something more suitable.
Yes, fair enough. And no intention to duplicate or crib from your blog, as an accidental result of thinking roughly the same way. Just raising some points that I thought were useful in the context of this thread.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'm struggling with the Sunday School thing just now.
We have a nice little group of the right age of children, who really enjoy the sessions; and a handful of volunteer assistants. But so far only two people from the whole parish willing to lead a 40 minute session, once a quarter.
Any youth initiatives are struggling at the moment, sadly some of it is due to CRB red-tape, suspicion of adults wanting to spend time with children, the excessive blame culture if anything goes wrong, etc. Not many people are prepared to take on the responsibility for other people's kids like they used to. We see the same with events involving junior choristers.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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