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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In which ken forgets his medicine
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Someone has posted a link, on the Bishop of Coventry thread in Purg, to some sources of info. about wealthy US evangelicals bankrolling Nigerian and Ugandan Anglicans.
As far as I know, no one has suggested that wealthy US evangelicals DON'T give money to the Nigerian and Ugandan Anglicans. They give money to them because their views are already similar.
By my reading, at least part of Ken's objection was to the use of words like "bribe" and "manipulate". TEC spends a lot of money in Africa too--would you care to suggest we are "bribing" and "manipulating" the churches there? Or is it a case of "mission" when I do it, and "manipulating" when someone with whom I disagree does it?
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I hadn't noticed that Ecclesiantics had a particularly large number of Anglo-Catholics: I can think of maybe three, including myself, who currently post there.
I'm impressed that after posting for barely more than a month you have such extensive knowledge of the Eccles regulars and semi-regulars and are able to categorize them with *such* accuracy.
quote:
This obsession with Evangelical Christianity pops in Eccles with alarming frequency as well...
Ah, yes, that familiar declension:
I am interested in Anglo-Catholicism; You are obsessed with Evangelical Christianity.
quote:
... just the thing for our annual Protestant truth society trip to Walsingham to protestant those nasty Anglo-Catholics'.
And how, pray tell, does one "protestant" an Anglo-Catholic, particularly the nasty ones? Stone them with wee cuppies?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Wee cuppies aren't the sine qua non of Protestantism , of course, Mamacita. It's perfectly possible to be a Protestant and never come across them.
But you knew that too, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Ken is attacked and brought to Hell for voicing the view that Liberal-Episcopalians have a predisposition to patronising cant.
Crikey !
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The lying fish is just plain odd. He's a new Shipmate and he's already started threads in Eccles. There's no hope for him.
Like we needed another Anglo-Catholic Tat Queen down there anyway. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
You think he's new? I've always thought there was something fishy about the way he eddied into discussions. But that line of thought was ruled out of order by seasick.
Not a line of thinking being ruled out of order, simply the voicing of it on the wrong board, i.e.outside of Hell.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Ken does not hate liberals, Anglo-Catholics, or anything of that ilk. Indeed, I've always got on very well with him, in spite of being very different theologically in some respects.
The OP seems to be confusing 'liberals' with dim-witted neo-imperialist liars.
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Well yes, but I wish ken would appear and dissociate himself from the homophobic bigots in the churches of Nigeria etc. In jumping on the paranoid liberals, identifying covert racism, and defending the autonomy of African Christians (all of which he is right to do) there's a danger that we might think he supports Akinola and his ilk.
[PS good to see you back on these boards, DoD. It helps to keep us sane and focussed]
[ 09. August 2012, 17:41: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
the corollary of that is that the Africans are perfectly capable of being homophobic bigots on their own.
I've heard it said more than once that extreme homophobia in Africa is down more to the efforts of C19 Christian missionaries than anything in indigenous cultures. I've no idea if that's true.
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
...I wish ken would appear and dissociate himself from the homophobic bigots in the churches of Nigeria etc.
I wouldn't hold my breath. It's rare for ken to make more than one appearance on a Hell thread, even when he opens it.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Someone has posted a link, on the Bishop of Coventry thread in Purg, to some sources of info. about wealthy US evangelicals bankrolling Nigerian and Ugandan Anglicans.
Don't hold your breath for any of this lot to be reading it. They don't want to know.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
If you read up the thread you'll see the obvious response made by Organ builder. You must have missed it first time through.
Shall I hold my breath? Do you want to know?
[ 09. August 2012, 19:17: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
If you read up the thread you'll see the obvious response made by Organ builder. You must have missed it first time through.
Shall I hold my breath? Do you want to know?
I gather then that neither you nor Organ Builder has read any of the material at the posted links, because neither of you would be making a response like that if you had. Organ Builder's response was in no way germane to the matter, and neither is yours.
[ 09. August 2012, 19:19: Message edited by: Grammatica ]
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Remember, Grammatica, the only good martyr is a dead martyr.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Remember, Grammatica, the only good martyr is a dead martyr.
Read the stuff and get back to me.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
FWIW, I think ken is an arrogant didactic pompous Colonel Blimp of the pseudo-socialist kind who thinks it is ok if he argues in Heaven and All Saints if someone has a contrary opinion to his own. I ignore him in Purgatory, and wish I could ignore him in Hell. Alas.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Actually, Grammatica, I read those articles when they first came out. I have a lot of respect for Jim Naughton, and follow his web site daily.
What people object to (myself, and I suppose Ken, and certainly others who haven't been all that nice about the policies of the Nigerian and Ugandan churches) is the choice of verbs which leaves open the interpretation that these churches don't know what they are doing and are only doing what they do because their rich evangelical sugar daddies tell them what is sinful and what is holy.
And that's a crock of vintage, fermented shit in my ever-not-so-humble opinion.
Did the US Evangelicals use the Africans for their own ends? Yes. Did the Africans use the US Evangelicals for their own ends? Yes. I consider it a much more equal entente than would be suggested by verbs like "bribe" and "manipulate". Without the money, the African Anglicans would not have had the resources, perhaps, to wreak QUITE as much havoc in the US church as they did--but they would still have done what they could. Their real helpers in that regard were our own bishops.
Cross-posted with Grammatica's last one liner, so I'll add--don't make the ridiculous assumption that people can't possibly disagree with you about interpretations if they read the same articles you read.
[ 09. August 2012, 19:32: Message edited by: Organ Builder ]
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
What is lacking in the articles is any serious evidence that African churches have substantially altered their views in return for money.
They've received money - that is clear. As Organ Builder says, it isn't clear that this is either manipulation or bribery, rather than an unholy alliance.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Actually, Grammatica, I read those articles when they first came out. I have a lot of respect for Jim Naughton, and follow his web site daily.
What people object to (myself, and I suppose Ken, and certainly others who haven't been all that nice about the policies of the Nigerian and Ugandan churches) is the choice of verbs which leaves open the interpretation that these churches don't know what they are doing and are only doing what they do because their rich evangelical sugar daddies tell them what is sinful and what is holy.
And that's a crock of vintage, fermented shit in my ever-not-so-humble opinion.
Did the US Evangelicals use the Africans for their own ends? Yes. Did the Africans use the US Evangelicals for their own ends? Yes. I consider it a much more equal entente than would be suggested by verbs like "bribe" and "manipulate". Without the money, the African Anglicans would not have had the resources, perhaps, to wreak QUITE as much havoc in the US church as they did--but they would still have done what they could. Their real helpers in that regard were our own bishops.
Cross-posted with Grammatica's last one liner, so I'll add--don't make the ridiculous assumption that people can't possibly disagree with you about interpretations if they read the same articles you read.
Heh. I can accept that the leaders of certain of the African churches have been in what you call an equal entente with the other players in this mess. They are getting as much as they give out of the, um, arrangements. Do ut des. It's always been a happy day when that can happen.
What ken and his ilk seem to want to deny is that there was ever anything underhanded going on at all, that there was no arrangement between UK and Sydney conevos, US big-money conservatives, and certain of the African archbishops to sack and pillage the American church. That's the nonsense. That's the poor old lefty unable to come to terms with the facts of the gulag because his socialist dreams would be busted if he did. I have no patience at all with it.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Grammatica, as a gay man I can certainly say I would wish Ken could be a bit clearer (well, a LOT clearer) about denouncing the horrific level of homophobia in some of the African churches.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Grammatica, as a gay man I can certainly say I would wish Ken could be a bit clearer (well, a LOT clearer) about denouncing the horrific level of homophobia in some of the African churches.
And so could I. A single standard, and that a high one, as they used to say.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I hadn't noticed that Ecclesiantics had a particularly large number of Anglo-Catholics: I can think of maybe three, including myself, who currently post there.
I'm impressed that after posting for barely more than a month you have such extensive knowledge of the Eccles regulars and semi-regulars and are able to categorize them with *such* accuracy.
Perhaps he has been reincarnated and carried such knowledge from a previous life.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'm impressed that after posting for barely more than a month you have such extensive knowledge of the Eccles regulars and semi-regulars and are able to categorize them with *such* accuracy.
Perhaps he has been reincarnated and carried such knowledge from a previous life.
Maybe (S)pike couchant has been lurking for a loooong time?
[ 09. August 2012, 20:16: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
What ken and his ilk seem to want to deny is that there was ever anything underhanded going on at all, that there was no arrangement between UK and Sydney conevos, US big-money conservatives, and certain of the African archbishops to sack and pillage the American church.
I have no problem with that account (presuming that "sack and pillage" means something like stitch up or attack rather than plunder), but plenty of problems with the implications of "manipulate" or "bribed" earlier.
(When I say no problem I mean I have to despairingly accept it is true.)
JFH put it better than I did on the parallel Purgatory thread.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
In order to gather my opinions from the other thread over here and continue discussion:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I am sure money has flowed from various evangelical organisations to Anglican churches in Africa, that doesn't amount to being bought off or manipulated though.
This.
Surely there is homophobia to be found in African cultures also outside the Anglican churches. "Manipulated" implies a passivity on the receiving end that just isn't there in African cultures, and which also rings scaringly similar to a straw man of the Other that Africa has seen way too much of.
Chinua Achebe breaks with colonialism through, amongst other things, daring to give the Africans homophobic and misogynic thoughts in his seminal work Things Fall Apart, back in 1958. Even more than just giving the African a face and an activity, he gives the African a complexity that just isn't there in the words "bribed" and "manipulated", and just wasn't there in the British imperial mindset. That's why the wording is bordering on racism, even if money has flowed in that direction.
That, and I also denounce the horrific levels of homophobia in some African countries.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Agreed.
Homophobia in some of my African friends is like some vile and dangerous affliction scarring an otherwise attractive face.
I have a friend who wept with joy and celebrated for 48hrs when Obama was elected, but then denounced him as Satan when he came out in support of SSM and said they cared not if Romney was elected.
I wish I knew what to do to change their mind, but I know it isn't anything along the lines of manipulation or bribery.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Grammatica, as a gay man I can certainly say I would wish Ken could be a bit clearer (well, a LOT clearer) about denouncing the horrific level of homophobia in some of the African churches.
And so could I. A single standard, and that a high one, as they used to say.
You'll be whistling in the wind then. The attitudes of African Anglicanism to homosexuality has come up many times. Unfortunately we can't search back by subject, but ken's input has only ever been to throw back accusations of racism against those who comment negatively on African homophobia.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
I've heard it said more than once>……<I've no idea if that's true.
What a fabulous gambit!
You can put any damn fool thing you want in the middle and no one can call you on it. I'm certainly going to borrow the concept. Thanks!
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
I've heard it said more than once that< in the USA the African American community as a rule is more homophobic than population in general. So that wouldn't have anything to do with British colonialism. >But I've no idea if that's true.
(Actually I think that's a fairly widely held point of view.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I've heard it said more than once that< in the USA the African American community as a rule is more homophobic than population in general. So that wouldn't have anything to do with British colonialism. >But I've no idea if that's true.
(Actually I think that's a fairly widely held point of view.)
Yeah, but we weren't discussing the African American community, but the African African one. The two are very dissimilar, and I could probably hear it said more than once if I listened for it that they are hardly even related anymore.
I'm not sure if you're criticizing the idea that African societies got their homophobia from evangelicals/imperialist western attitudes or criticizing the idea that it can be a colonialist attitude to refer to them as passive manipulees. Care to clarify?
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Ken is generally OK, and I listen to wht he says even though our churchmanship and politics are rather different. However, like all of us he occasionally throws his toys out of the pram. I dare say I have lost my temper a few times on these boards.
(S)pike Couchant may eventually workup to being a likeable annoyance, but at the moment... From my angle it seems a bit of an over reaction to Ken blowing a gasket at an old canard about the American money and the Africas.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
I've heard it said more than once>……<I've no idea if that's true.
What a fabulous gambit!
You can put any damn fool thing you want in the middle and no one can call you on it. I'm certainly going to borrow the concept. Thanks!
Don't even think about it. Someone had (and possibly has) "The plural of anecdote is not data" as their signature.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
I've heard it said more than once>……<I've no idea if that's true.
What a fabulous gambit!
You can put any damn fool thing you want in the middle and no one can call you on it. I'm certainly going to borrow the concept. Thanks!
I don't do gambits. In this case, just mentioning a possibly relevant opinion that does exist. I don't claim knowledge unless I have it.
As for homophobia among African-Americans and in the Caribbean, slavery is the most extreme form of colonialism. Often, in the New World, with enforced Christian worship.
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think many cultures from Islamic Africa, Hindu India and Christian Europe have rich veins of homophobia in them.
I think homophobia is something that humans are prone to, just like racism and various other fears and hatreds of those not like them.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think many cultures from Islamic Africa, Hindu India and Christian Europe have rich veins of homophobia in them.
I think homophobia is something that humans are prone to, just like racism and various other fears and hatreds of those not like them.
Except that if these peoples have a genuine religious belief that homosexuality is wrong then describing them as -phobic is a sort of liberal cultural imperialism and tantamount to suggesting that they are deranged. To be against something does not equate with being irrationally fearful of it.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Often, in the New World, with enforced Christian worship.
They seem to have gotten over the horror in the last 150 years or so.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
"Homophobia" is an unfortunate term. "Bigotry" is far more to the point. Look, some cultures are keen on female genital mutilation and allowing men to murder their wives or female kin at will. I don't care if you wish to label as "cultural imperialism" our efforts to do what we can to further the elimination of these practices. The same goes for the persecution of LGBT persons. Cultural imperialism? I could really give a rat's arse.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Except that if these peoples have a genuine religious belief that homosexuality is wrong then describing them as -phobic is a sort of liberal cultural imperialism...
It may be in some instances. Having a genuine religious belief does not make someone immune to homophobia. Hence I stand by a view that homophobia is common in many cultures, including those that I listed.
In some individuals in some of those cultures a genuine religious view untinged by any element of homophobia might be misinterpreted, but I think one can identify definite signs of homophobic behaviour (campaigns for death penalties, violent mobs, being cast out of families etc) among some individuals within all the cultures (or groups of cultures) that I listed.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think many cultures from Islamic Africa, Hindu India and Christian Europe have rich veins of homophobia in them.
I think homophobia is something that humans are prone to, just like racism and various other fears and hatreds of those not like them.
Except that if these peoples have a genuine religious belief that homosexuality is wrong then describing them as -phobic is a sort of liberal cultural imperialism and tantamount to suggesting that they are deranged. To be against something does not equate with being irrationally fearful of it.
There were Christians here in the U.S. decades ago for whom the Bible taught that dark skinned races were inferior and even some that the Bible taught they were the descendents of demon/human sexual relationships. The fact they held religious beliefs that other races were inferior or even less than human doesn't mean they weren't racist bigots.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Except that if these peoples have a genuine religious belief that homosexuality is wrong then describing them as -phobic is a sort of liberal cultural imperialism and tantamount to suggesting that they are deranged. To be against something does not equate with being irrationally fearful of it.
Unfortunately, there's not a word ending in "-ism" to describe what's commonly known as homophobia. This is unfortunate, because it allows bigoted fuckwits to hide behind comments like "I'm not homophobic because, while I hate those fag bastards with all my heart, I'm not actually scared of them".
Please aumbry, spare us the etymological pedantry and just accept that 99.99% of the time "homophobia" is to sexuality what "racism" is to race.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
If you think homosexuality is wrong, don't do it.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If you think homosexuality is wrong, don't do it.
And don't make life miserable for those who do.
I don't use the word 'homophobia' I say 'anti gay sex' but that doesn't cover it either.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Isn't the test for homophobia when those who say 'it's not being gay that's wrong, it's when you put your willy where God says it shouldn't go', still discriminate against those who show no evidence of doing the latter? Such as the white middle class British Anglicans who prevented Jeffrey John becoming a bishop.
So there is plenty of it around, and most self-justifying blather doesn't excuse it. It's no more endemic amongst Africans than white Americans or English bishops.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
The obsession with homosexual sex is quite extraordinary. It has been out for rather a long time.
The total fixation with the issue must come from:
(a) those not Public School educated and who therefore often react with mysticism or disgust or ignorance.
(b)those who were, and have an over sensitive reaction against a perfectly normal grope behind the bikesheds.
(c) rather unpleasant prurient types with faulty genes who have a subliminal desire to twitch curtains and peep into other people's bedrooms and dress up their imagined horror in religious language.
(d) fundamentalists.
Perhaps everyone should have a good go at it, and then perhaps the more heterosexually inclined of either sex could marry when they're not so good looking anymore?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Isn't the test for homophobia when those who say 'it's not being gay that's wrong, it's when you put your willy where God says it shouldn't go', still discriminate against those who show no evidence of doing the latter? Such as the white middle class British Anglicans who prevented Jeffrey John becoming a bishop.
More than happy with that definition.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Perhaps everyone should have a good go at it, and then perhaps the more heterosexually inclined of either sex could marry when they're not so good looking anymore?
Possibly not such a bad idea. After all, it's neither incest nor folk dancing.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's no more endemic amongst Africans than white Americans or English bishops.
That's an easy and popular thing to say (particularly around here) but how do you know it's true?
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
If you believe that Africans are more likely to be innately homophobic, that's racism surely? If you believe there is something about their culture which prejudices them, then it is racist not to challenge this.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
That is very well put.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think homophobia is more endemic in some African countries than it is in the UK.
The frequency of violent mobs in East Africa that from because of a rumour about a homosexual wedding, the attempt to enact a death penalty in Uganda and imprisonment in Malawi, compare badly with the record in the UK. I doubt there would be much public support for either legal measure in the UK (although there would be some minority support) and although there are homophobic violent crimes, they rarely involve large mobs.
Nevertheless homophobia is endemic in both cultures to differing degrees and with differing levels of expression. And I believe all individuals to have an innate tendency to form groups that fear and hate people who are different. Having brains with higher functions gives us the option of inhibiting these tendencies.
Cultures are different, and individual responses to their different cultures differ.
I think we need to be able to say that as a matter of fact without getting drawn into judgements of cultural superiority, manipulation of the weak minded, or generalizations to all members of a particular culture.
[ 10. August 2012, 17:02: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
"Homophobia" is an unfortunate term. "Bigotry" is far more to the point. Look, some cultures are keen on female genital mutilation and allowing men to murder their wives or female kin at will. I don't care if you wish to label as "cultural imperialism" our efforts to do what we can to further the elimination of these practices. The same goes for the persecution of LGBT persons. Cultural imperialism? I could really give a rat's arse.
Well where do you draw the line? necrophilia? pederasty? These Africans are drawing a line that was common throughout the Western World as well until not so long ago. It is very easy for a bunch of old episcopalian queens in America to get on their high horse about the moral stance of people living in the Third World but if they had to live in these places they would realise that it is not that simple especially in places where Islam is on the march.
I am shocked to say I think Ken has a point.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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