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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: leo
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
By the way Leo quoted someone else on this thread. Transparently.
That's progress, surely.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
It's interesting that the person who starts a thread about trying to restore the fun to worship gives such a pompous and po-faced reply to a humourous post about genuflecting up a ladder.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Leo posted: quote:
quote:
...Small talk is like that roll sitting in the vast expanse of the mind to an introvert. It's a waste of resources…
This is just bollocks! It's nothing to do with introversion, it's to do with feeling superior.
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
It's interesting that the person who starts a thread about trying to restore the fun to worship gives such a pompous and po-faced reply to a humourous post about genuflecting up a ladder.
Someone asked about the context of a passage, and I did my best to provide the context. Is that a crime?
Anyway, this thread isn't about me. If you want to start one that is, I'd be beyond flattered.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Having read leo's link--and the comments afterwards, including some from the author--I'm not certain leo and the blogger are using the same definition of small talk. The blogger realizes that a lot of necessary communication and interaction are labelled "small talk", but his real beef is with the "networking" type of contacts--business card exchanges, etc. In fact, it is the inauthenticity that makes it small talk. He feels any authentic or genuine intent will elevate the conversation into something worthwhile, regardless of subject matter.
I'm not particularly surprised that a shallow reading led leo to post this to boost his point, but I think a more thorough examination of the link tends to bolster the points leo is arguing against.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Hell is a form of particularly nasty small talk so I don't intend to dwell in it very often so I'll probably make this my last word.
It would be interesting to know how many people extolling the virtues of small talk are extroverts.
They, the majority of the population, particularly in the Western world, are unlikely to fully understand introverts, unless they are partnered to one, because they are unlikely to encounter them via small talk because we stay away.
I'll expose my feelings a little further, thus making myself vulnerable to further attack, by saying that I find 'social occasions' literally painful. (Something introverts have in common, I think, with Asperger's and Autistic people.)
Whereas I find one-to-one conversatons life-affirming and yes, Spike couchant, joyful.
I prefer to be energised that enervated
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hell is a form of particularly nasty small talk...
Not according to your introverted blogger--because whatever else Hell may be, it is authentic and genuine.
You don't have to like it (I don't always, myself) but it is not "small talk".
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I prefer to be energised that enervated
And self-righteous and unaccountable?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Leo posted: quote:
Hell is a form of particularly nasty small talk...
You appear to have a very idiosyncratic definition of small talk. Essentially "discourse I don't like". Generally, we define small talk along the lines of "an informal type of discourse that does not cover any functional topics of conversation or any transactions that need to be addressed."
quote:
It would be interesting to know how many people extolling the virtues of small talk are extroverts.
I'm an extrovert, and I'm crap at it.
quote:
They [extroverts], the majority of the population, particularly in the Western world, are unlikely to fully understand introverts, unless they are partnered to one, because they are unlikely to encounter them via small talk because we stay away.
That seems to equate all interpersonal interactions with small talk.
quote:
I find 'social occasions' literally painful.
My commiserations. But do you really mean 'literally'?
quote:
I find one-to-one conversatons life-affirming
Always? You've never looked around for someone to rescue you from the current bore? Or do you mean, tautologically, "conversations that I happen to be interested in"?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
leo, the 'someone else's' words sound more like the someone else is a bit of a misanthrope - not merely an introvert who genuinelly can't handle social occasions; and who really doesn't have much respect, affection or interest in his fellow man.
For those who genuinelly want to sink into the floor I can only imagine how difficult it must be if you have a bad gut reaction to social occasions, and you actually feel unable to make the effort. But that's not typical, I'd think, of the misanthropical feel of yer man's comments.
I'm fairly outgoing and I often hate the thought of social occasions! It requires an effort - like anything worth the candle. And just because I'm outgoing doesn't mean my efforts at small-talk are 'inauthentic', or that I don't struggle myself with it, or I don't have a real desire to facilitate a welcoming and social atmosphere. And if that is using small-talk as a 'tool' - well, it seems like a very useful and perfectly reasonable tool for the coherence of social community dynamics.
It's also got to be borne in mind that at many events there are some people there, who have come hoping to be spoken to, and attention taken of them, because heaven knows when was the last time they had a chat with someone, and they want sociableness. Undoubtedly there are times when one knows the small-talk is inconsequential. But it need not be, if we're willing to make an effort. Good small-talk is the cement of ongoing pastoral care; the 'pick-up' moments for sensing something might be wrong; a simple hand-press or good wish which makes another person feel that their presence at the event is not invisible or ignorable.
The 'someone else' in your quote must be very fortunate to have the choice between what company he may accept or reject. And he may feel himself in an exalted enough position to judge how others perform at something he doesn't value.
FWIW, I know one bishop - of some time ago - who couldn't do small-talk to save his life. He was a great guy who was very well respected on many levels; but just a couple of informal moments in his company could be the most uncomfortable and awkward experience! And sadly I've known of a couple of other senior church-people who were much criticized simply because they never knew how to begin a conversation in an easy manner and were death-on-legs at any social gathering, despite being talented people in other ways.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
It would be interesting to know how many people extolling the virtues of small talk are extroverts.
I'm an extrovert, and I'm crap at it.
I'm an introvert, and I've learned to be pretty good at it. I hate to sound like a fatuous Facebook wall post, but all my friends were once upon a time people I didn't know, and I didn't leap straight into joyful, meaningful, soul-baring conversations when I met them. Chances are they'd have beaten a hasty retreat if I had.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
@Anselmini
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Anselmina, before judging leo's "someone else" too harshly, I would suggest reading all the comments in the discussion after his essay. It becomes clear that he is talking about a kind of "small talk" that is much more narrowly focussed than leo's version.
For all I know, he may still be misanthropic--but I don't think leo's post and quote do him justice, and it's very easy to misjudge him in light of leo's use of him (I know, because I did).
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Anselmina, before judging leo's "someone else" too harshly, I would suggest reading all the comments in the discussion after his essay. It becomes clear that he is talking about a kind of "small talk" that is much more narrowly focussed than leo's version.
For all I know, he may still be misanthropic--but I don't think leo's post and quote do him justice, and it's very easy to misjudge him in light of leo's use of him (I know, because I did).
Fair enough. I just went by leo's quote, and I didn't have the wit to think of putting it into context. I'm maybe being too hard on 'someone else'!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
It's as though Spike never, ever read Ecclesiantics:
It's interesting that the person who starts a thread about trying to restore the fun to worship gives such a pompous and po-faced reply to a humourous post about genuflecting up a ladder.
The Most Holy Hosts know I certainly carry no brief for that fish, but if his matter-of-fact post is pompous and po-faced, then so is the entire phreaking Ecclesiantics.
Right off the rip, we've such crowd-pleasing classics as:- The soul saving, mission oriented, How to insert commemorations of faithful departed and BVM into BCP eucharistic canon
- 'Souls don't rise', which Evensong, no doubt, finds helpful in warding off the dreaded gnosticism
- and, my favorite general interest thread, The shape of the chasuble! fer cryin' out loud. It ought to be retitled, "Poncho or Sandwich Board?"
Spike, by all means, beat that fool with a stick, but for mercy sake make use a stout one.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
Oh come on, now! As Ecclesiantics threads go, 'The shape of the chasuble' is the dog's bollocks.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The Most Holy Hosts know I certainly carry no brief for that fish, but if his matter-of-fact post is pompous and po-faced, then so is the entire phreaking Ecclesiantics.
Funny you should say that ...
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Leo, I'm as introverted as they come, and find small talk difficult. But I'm not the only person in the world, and my needs don't trump the needs of my extrovert neighbors.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Also, as someone who is introverted, anxious around others, and, let's be honest, awkward as all Hell sometimes, can I make a simple request: can we stop equating introversion with being better than other people?
I've known plenty of introverts who were dull, uncreative jerks. I've known plenty of extroverts who were about the brightest people ever. If you want to call Ben Franklin and every hard-drinking, womanizing artist dull, unoriginal, and uncreative, be my guest, so long as I can call you wrong. Introversion is no reason to think yourself superior to the world, or above society's ways of working.
Do I think we should scrap the rules that enforce inequality and dishonesty? Sure I do! So do a lot of extroverts! Do I think small talk is necessary, even though I'm crap at it? Yup. You need to establish a base of trust and with others before you start moving on to areas like politics, religion and (seriously, do I have to say this?) sex that are personal, strongly held, and often where people are most vulnerable. If I don't know who you are, or how you're going to react to my occasional awkward joke, malapropism, or lapse in thought—much less my way of dealing with the world—I'm sure not going to open up the places you can attack me to you.
It's not dishonest to exchange a few basic pleasantries with people before hitting the deep, meaningful questions of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Anselmina, before judging leo's "someone else" too harshly, I would suggest reading all the comments in the discussion after his essay.
HIS essay? Be honest now. Whom did he steal it from?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Sorry, mousethief--too many pronouns made my post unclear. I was referring to the blogger to whom leo linked. If I recall correctly, his name is Ty. Overall, the blog post which leo quoted and the discussion following show a level of nuance I have yet to see in any of leo's remarks on small talk.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It would be interesting to know how many people extolling the virtues of small talk are extroverts.
Introvert here. Small talk is vital. Can't stand vacuous talk, though, whether large or small.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Really? If all you have to go on is that someone you dislike is an American, that drives you to chauvenism? Oh my God you are a shallow pool.
I think someone who has made over 50,000 posts of which barely any are longer than one line is in a position to define the shallows.
(very delayed I know, but...)
Objection your honour. Completely confuses quantity with quality. Mousethief can drive straight into the point in one line. It's hardly a BAD thing if he manages to cut the crap and say what needs to be said in a small space.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
- and, my favorite general interest thread, The shape of the chasuble! fer cryin' out loud. It ought to be retitled, "Poncho or Sandwich Board?"
You have no idea how tempting that is.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
Leotard: quote:
It would be interesting to know how many people extolling the virtues of small talk are extroverts.
They, the majority of the population, particularly in the Western world, are unlikely to fully understand introverts, unless they are partnered to one, because they are unlikely to encounter them via small talk because we stay away.
Data point checking in. I'm an introvert. Some people I know are surprised to hear me say it because I have been socialized to the point where I pass for an extrovert in some situations. Mostly in environments where there are a lot of highly introverted people ... in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. (Although I do seem to have what I call the "It's Showtime" override ... sometimes it's like I'm performing on stage and go into overdrive. I usually crash pretty hard after doing this.) So I guess I am an introvert-leaning ambivert these days, but I started out pretty introverted.
I am reasonably good at small talk. I have learned skills and opening gambits relevant to a number of common situations. E.g. business conferences, work, coffee hour, a friend's party, diocesan or community events, shipmeets, do I know a lot of the people here or not? I also have a number of "scripts" for getting myself out of sticky situations. I will emphasize that there are SKILLS that can be learned. I sweated all those lessons ... if it looks easy, it's because I practice, practice, practice.
Small talk - rather than BIG IDEAS talk - lets me keep my privacy and social distance. It is not a window into my soul.
I also find that I am regarded as a charming and stellar conversationalist if I can manage to get other people talking about themselves or something they are interested in ... without saying much myself.
Learning these skills means that I don't have to completely rearrange my life (career, interactions in the community, hobbies) to avoid situations where having to chat with people might happen. I have a toolbox and use the tools as appropriate.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Leo, stop giving introverts a bad name. Or acting like being an introvert makes you some kind of intellectual special flower. It doesn't. And I'm allowed to say that. I'm an off the scale introvert.
I get not liking talking to strangers. I am naturally crap at it. But being an adult involves figuring out that the entire universe does not revolve around my preferences. So guess what? I use a "how to do small talk" thread to learn how to chitchat and avoid being bloody rude.
That aside, I have a dilemma. I said I wasn't going to call you to hell over your sanctimoniously telling me in purgatory that Jesus has nothing to say to me (I mean, really? You honestly have no idea how judgmental and hateful that sounds?) but now that someone else has called you down here, I mean I wouldn't really be making the call … Oh well, I suppose I should stick to plan A.
(Although I will make the same comment that I have several times before, which has never been refuted, that I have never seen leo post anything on the Ship that made me believe that he was a happy person.)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
being an adult involves figuring out that the entire universe does not revolve around my preferences.
Being an adult also means figuring out how to get a life-work balance.
My working life has, and to some extent in retirement it still does via voluntary work, involve a whole day revolving around the agendas of others.
So it seems healthy, to me, to have time away from that in the evenings rather than going for more of the same.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Leo, I'm as introverted as they come, and find small talk difficult. But I'm not the only person in the world, and my needs don't trump the needs of my extrovert neighbors.
But a working day spent largely in the company of extroverts needs balancing by time for oneself to recharge batteries.
or are we never to meet out own needs and to be there 24/7 for others?
[ 30. August 2012, 11:30: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I said I wasn't going to call you to hell over your sanctimoniously telling me in purgatory that Jesus has nothing to say to me (I mean, really? You honestly have no idea how judgmental and hateful that sounds?)... Oh well, I suppose I should stick to plan A.
It strikes me, Leo, that a considerate person would respond appropriately at this point.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
In not-unrelated news, someone actually walked right away from me last night in one of those small-talk conversations without any ceremony (distracted by a third party). She caught herself three steps away, but by then of course it was Awkward.
More proof, if any were needed, that I am Crap™ at small talk. And that advice on how to do it right is badly needed.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
No, proof that you had a rude counterpart in your conversation. If that was her attitude it is unlikely she was helping you all that much in making the conversation last. I would shake the dust off and forget it.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I said I wasn't going to call you to hell over your sanctimoniously telling me in purgatory that Jesus has nothing to say to me (I mean, really? You honestly have no idea how judgmental and hateful that sounds?)... Oh well, I suppose I should stick to plan A.
It strikes me, Leo, that a considerate person would respond appropriately at this point.
That highlights a difference between real life and internet forums. leo can dive straight in with a reply to la vie en rose's post whereas in real life he would have to 'make small talk' to engage with her before they could discuss the matter in hand.
But even on the internet it's sometimes best to use a mild greeting or introduction before getting down to the business. I don't claim it's easy but even a formulaic approach, both IRL and on line, can help.
(I'm another who is usually serving drinks or in the kitchen at parties.)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
In real life you couldn't get away with saying something like that, being called on it, and then going on with a conversation as if nothing had happened.
Actually you can't get away with it on SoF either, it's just easier to delude yourself that you can.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It would be interesting to know how many people extolling the virtues of small talk are extroverts.
Introvert here. Small talk is vital. Can't stand vacuous talk, though, whether large or small.
Hard to get to the Deep and Meaningful stuff without the vacuous small talk first tho hey?
You don't just generally walk up to someone you've never met and ask them the meaning of life.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In not-unrelated news, someone actually walked right away from me last night in one of those small-talk conversations without any ceremony (distracted by a third party). She caught herself three steps away, but by then of course it was Awkward.
More proof, if any were needed, that I am Crap™ at small talk. And that advice on how to do it right is badly needed.
It's okay. That happens to me too. And I'm awesome at small talk. I can regale you will cloud and weather patterns all day long.
Her loss. You'd be fun to talk to. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 30. August 2012, 12:24: Message edited by: Evensong ]
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
More proof, if any were needed, that I am Crap™ at small talk. And that advice on how to do it right is badly needed.
Last Sunday, I walked out of church with two other women, stopped when they stopped, and continued to rattle on for some minutes until it dawned on me that they were waiting for me to go on so they could discuss something more on the order of large talk.
Like most of you I don't see a distinction in creativity or intelligence based on introvert or extrovert. I'm not sure which one I am but I know I was voted, "most bashful," in high school and, recognizing that there was a certain amount of self-centeredness in forever hanging back for fear of making a fool of my self was not a good thing, so I worked hard to get past it. Still, little events like the one at church can make want to go home and never leave. Agoraphobia is always lurking around the corner for me if I let it.
Leo's blogger is arrogant and boring and Leo himself is selling himself short.
Leo, your insistence that you would have nothing to talk about and nothing in common with, some random group of people at a social gathering is completely untrue. On this forum alone, you've discussed a thousand different topics and mentioned hundreds of books you've read. I imagine you could find some similar interest with almost anyone if you gave them a chance.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I said I wasn't going to call you to hell over your sanctimoniously telling me in purgatory that Jesus has nothing to say to me (I mean, really? You honestly have no idea how judgmental and hateful that sounds?)... Oh well, I suppose I should stick to plan A.
It strikes me, Leo, that a considerate person would respond appropriately at this point.
Well quite. The reason I didn't bother resurrecting this thread myself isn't that I didn't think the comment hellworthy. It was because (a) I usually feel conscience-stricken after calling people nasty names, even when they deserve it and (b) it has been proven time and again that calling leo to hell is a case-study in futility.
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Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Leo, stop giving introverts a bad name. Or acting like being an introvert makes you some kind of intellectual special flower. It doesn't. And I'm allowed to say that. I'm an off the scale introvert.
The introversion/extroversion scale is only part of personality dynamic. Other factrors come i9nto pkay too.
I find it interesting that much of what is being said here confirms MBTI observations, in particular:
I have usually been 'assessed' as INFJ - the rarest personality type, consisting of only 2% of the general population. According to this: quote:
INFJs will suddenly withdraw into themselves, sometimes shutting out even their intimates. This apparent paradox is a necessary escape valve for them, providing both time to rebuild their depleted resources and a filter to prevent the emotional overload to which they are so susceptible as inherent "givers." As a pattern of behavior, it is perhaps the most confusing aspect of the enigmatic INFJ character to outsiders, and hence the most often misunderstood -- particularly by those who have little experience with this rare type
And this: quote:
Can find too much time with people, especially strangers, draining….need to ‘recharge’ alone when you have spent time with a larger group …INFJs want a meaningful life and deep connections with other people. They do not tend to share themselves freely but appreciate emotional intimacy with a select, committed few. Although their rich inner life can sometimes make them seem mysterious or private to others, they enjoy making authentic connections with people they trust….They think deeply and often need time to process and evaluate before they are ready to share their ideas.
I have been gradually been changing into INTJ but there is much that is similar. [URL=http://www.personalitypage.com The Scientist]According to this:[/URL] quote:
Other people may have a difficult time understanding an INTJ. They may see them as aloof and reserved
And this: quote:
like to share special occasions with just one or two close friends….loner, more interested in intellectual pursuits than relationships… would rather be friendless than jobless, observer, values solitude
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
That's very odd, I find people that annoy the fuck out of me and hide behind pseudo-intellectualism all too common, far more than 2% of the population!
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
small-talk is the cement of ongoing pastoral care; the 'pick-up' moments for sensing something might be wrong; a simple hand-press or good wish which makes another person feel that their presence at the event is not invisible or ignorable.
Yes and no. I think a lot of introverts go into church ministry, knowingly or otherwise, because the role ensures that people approach them rather than them having to make the first move. INFJs and INFPs make up a huge percentage of the clergy yet a minute proportion of the population. When I am 'in role' it takes me from 10.00 to 1020 to get from the West Door to the vestry before the 1030 Sunday Mass. People keep stopping me - mostly pastoral stuff.I do the hand-shaking bit at the end - often another 20 mins with no time to get to coffee.
Even in role and/or as clergy, some of the most sought-after pastors are those who never do small talk. I am thinking particularly of Dr. Martyn Israel. I heard one of his devotees say that he avoided social interaction by walking sideways along a wall, like a fly, avoiding the floor. Interesting metaphor.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
small-talk is the cement of ongoing pastoral care; the 'pick-up' moments for sensing something might be wrong; a simple hand-press or good wish which makes another person feel that their presence at the event is not invisible or ignorable.
I also think that what constitutes 'pastoral care' varies considerably according to personal type.
I have known extrovert clergy who avoid anything 'deep' and think that a throwaway remark about the grass always being greener somewhere else or there are plenty more fish in the sea will do the job.
Introverts seeking pastoral care are more likely to book an appointment for an hour's one-to-one in a private place.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I have never seen leo post anything on the Ship that made me believe that he was a happy person.)
I am not sure how you can know that because:
a) 43 of your past 50 posts have been on threads to which i have not contributed anything or read - unless you are lurking on a very high number of threads, we don't go to the same places.
b) how do you define 'happy' What makes you happy is probably very different from what makes me happy so the most you could judge is that I would not find happiness doing/reading/experiencing the things that make you happy.
I am highly suspicious of 'happiness' as a thing to be sought after anyway. It comes as a biproduct to those who don't seek it and is elusive to those who run after it.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
FWIW leo, I am also definitely INJ, borderline on the T/F. And I think you're full of crap. Cut out the "I'm so rare and different and special" nonsense, and just admit that you get a kick out of thinking you're better than other people. Honesty is good for the soul, you know.
Jesus loves you exactly as much as he loves everyone else, including all those extroverts and people who don't read worthy theological tomes and Tory voters and evangelicals. No less, no more.
(While you may be prepared to say that I am outside the remit of the grace of Christ, I won't be saying the same about you. I think you're a berk, but can't deny that God still loves you anyway. But because he's chosen to love you and that's what he's like, not because you've got some special super-duper personality type. I just don't think he's the kind of deity to be impressed with that stuff.)
"Most sought after pastors"? In your parochial little corner of anglocatholicism maybe. I for one have never heard of the dude you just named.
Furthermore, am I to understand that you have spent your entire working life doing something that you yourself admit you're not cut out for and gives you no pleasure whatsoever? That actually explains a lot.
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Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
leo obviously realizes that he has bad social skills. What is amazing and amusing are his efforts to turn 'bad' into 'good'. Very 'Nineteen Eighty-Four'-ish.
But that's all of a piece with the way he operates in general…an overweening ego with no visible means of support. "If I say it's so, it must be so" despite all evidence to the contrary. But I suppose that's what it takes to get him through the day.
To paraphrase Winston Churchill (because unlike some I like to give credit where credit is due) "leo occasionally stumble over the truth, but picks himself up and hurries off as if nothing had happened."
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Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
FWIW leo, I am also definitely INJ, borderline on the T/F. And I think you're full of crap. Cut out the "I'm so rare and different and special" nonsense, and just admit that you get a kick out of thinking you're better than other people. Honesty is good for the soul, you know.
Jesus loves you exactly as much as he loves everyone else, including all those extroverts and people who don't read worthy theological tomes and Tory voters and evangelicals. No less, no more.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I said I wasn't going to call you to hell over your sanctimoniously telling me in purgatory that Jesus has nothing to say to me (I mean, really? You honestly have no idea how judgmental and hateful that sounds?)... Oh well, I suppose I should stick to plan A.
It strikes me, Leo, that a considerate person would respond appropriately at this point.
I did - on the Purgatory thread about alcoholic vicars but i'll summarise the gist here:
I, and several others, reckoned that alcoholism, like mental health issues and homosexuality need not be a bar to ordination and that, in fact, they were possibly an advantage since there is a lot of writing in spirituality circles about the appropriateness of 'wounded healers'. Ministers are not paragons of virtue. They are beggars telling other beggars where to find bread.
la vie en rouge seemed to think this was rubbish and that a wounded person had nothing to offer her. To which I replied that Jesus would not appeal to her as he was wounded.
i fleshed this out thus:
quote:
If she was saying that someone who was wounded would not be a good pastor, then she would not want Jesus as a pastor, since he was an abject failure in the terms of this world. he couldn't keep his inner circle loyal to him, he went out of his way to attack respectable leaders, whether political or religious. He could probably have avoided his own execution but he just wouldn't shut up or try to fit in with everyone else.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
"Most sought after pastors"? In your parochial little corner of anglocatholicism maybe. I for one have never heard of the dude you just named.
I'm sure we have all known pastors who take a lot of tracking down. Maybe that's not the kind of "most sought after" leo means, but if they think they lack "people skills" then that is how some clergy turn out to be.
You don't need to be great with people to do a job that demands some people skills. They can be learned.
[ 30. August 2012, 14:25: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I probably should know better, but in for a penny, in for a pound…
On happiness…
Yes, I lurk far more than I post, especially in Purgatory.
When I say I've never seen any sign of a happy person behind the on-Ship persona that is leo, I mean that I get no sense of joy, pleasure or contentment from your posts. In fact, I find it hard to find any genuine sincerity of feeling at all. It's all about wanting others to approve of the rightness of your opinions (which is ironic really, because they don't). This is particularly true when you talk about Christianity. Maybe it's my inner Pentie, but I kinda think that there ought to be some joy involved in following Christ (I've discovered him to be quite likeable, on the whole, and nice to be around a lot of the time). Not all the time, maybe, but still? No joy ever? What's the point? You make it sound like Christianity is a primarily a list of right opinions to be adhered to. I'm not the first to call your posts on this subject "joyless".
It's not about not liking the same things as you. Take some of the sports threads, for example. Not my cup of tea, but I do sense that the people who post to them have a genuine enthusiasm and enjoyment in what they're talking about. Not you.
None of this means that the real-life leo isn't a happy person. But if you give the impression of a joyless miseryguts on line, isn't that worth thinking about?
I agree with you that happiness/joy is a byproduct, but maybe not about what it's a byproduct of. I firmly believe that happiness comes from humility. You have none as far as I can see.
PS A cynical part of me wonders if the thing that really gives you feelings of satisfaction is thinking yourself superior to other people. But I don't include that in my definition of happiness. It's a simulacrum of happiness, not the real thing.
PPS That apology isn't one. What I am offended about is your frankly repugnant off the cuff remark that I have no part in Christ (and yes, I do consider this very, very offensive). Not that I expected any better. I am taking the high road and forgiving you, my berkish brother. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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