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Source: (consider it) Thread: leo
Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
Query: As adolescents we all wanted to be like the other dandelions. What went wrong? Oh, I see. we grew up. Or did we?

At the risk of heading back towards Purgatory, I'm not sure we did all want to be like other people as adolescents. Certainly one of the defining characteristics of the group I hung out with was that we weren't all like other people. We were largely like each other, admittedly, so we wanted to be like some other people, but we certainly bucked the general fashion/trend at the time.

I certainly didn't want to be like other people. I wanted to be cool and popular, known for being different, and as a tough hard edgy kind of person who nonetheless had a compassionate heart and was actually really nice. As I was a wimpy streak of piss and a wallflower, it was very aspirational [Biased]

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
One of those funky websites told me I was ESTJ and being a military leader was a suitable career for me.

HELL YEAH

Fortunately for the rest of the world your age would preclude entry to Duntroon.

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Well...

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chive

Ship's nude
# 208

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People always find ways of justifying their bad behaviour. That's what leo's use of the Myers thingy is all about. I'm incredibly introverted, I hate being in groups and making small talk but every day professionally I talk to hundreds of people for a living. It's a piece of piss. You learn how to do what you need and if you're not prepared to do that and blame some spurious psychological nonsense for it, frankly you're just a fuckwit.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Right, aren't the F's supposed to be concerned with others, prizing personal relationships over the rigors of logic, making arguments based on communitarian goods and eschewing conflict and self-aggrandizement?

I think we have proof that someone, somewhere, got something very wrong.

Could it be that prizing these things on an intellectual level is one thing, while doing something practical to bring this happy state of affairs about is something completely different?

leo seems OK at the former but pretty woeful on the latter.

btw: those seals are trained to do tricks. Maybe leo could be trained to relate to people.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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quote:
Originally posted by chive:
People always find ways of justifying their bad behaviour. That's what leo's use of the Myers thingy is all about. I'm incredibly introverted, I hate being in groups and making small talk but every day professionally I talk to hundreds of people for a living. It's a piece of piss. You learn how to do what you need and if you're not prepared to do that and blame some spurious psychological nonsense for it, frankly you're just a fuckwit.

I don't particularly want to get into the argument on MBTI but I would say that I find it helpful. But one of the things that was emphasised to us in the sessions on it I've attended is that one's type isn't an excuse. So I don't go round saying I can't talk to people or visit people or whatever because I'm an introvert. I have a standing joke with a colleague that I have no feelings (I'm a thinking type) and she can't think (a feeling type) but of course we can both do both - it's about recognising which things we do naturally and which things we need to learn or put more energy into. But bad behaviour or bad ministry is bad behaviour or bad ministry whatever your Myers-Briggs type.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
What I am offended about is your frankly repugnant off the cuff remark that I have no part in Christ (and yes, I do consider this very, very offensive).

He didn't say that.

You took it the wrong way.

What was the right way to take it?

I can see that it might have been meant as an insult. I can see that it might have been meant as a rebuke. I can't see any way in which it could possibly have been meant to be nice.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Should those of us who keep getting much the same result place credence in it, then? Following the same logic.

I don't know how anybody gets exactly the same result with that thing. The questions are worded in such a way as to present you with a straightforward black and white choice between concepts and hypothetical situations which are far from clearcut.

"Would you rather be just or merciful?" really depends on the situation IMO. There are times when one response is preferential to the other.

"Have you ever [done a particular thing]"? How are you supposed to answer that if
a) you did it once when you were 17?
b) you did it three times, none of which you ever intended to do and you felt terrible about afterwards, or there were mitigating circumstances?
c) No, not yet [but you've thought about it often and have it in mind to do when the opportunity presents itself]?

I think you could probably take a few other "results" from the Myers-Briggs, take the labels off them and present them to people and they would probably recognize something of themselves in them.

I don't believe in the Enneagram, either.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I'm just waiting for ken to turn up and call Myers-Briggs a load of crap, TBH.

You don't need to wait for ken:

Myers-Briggs is a load of crap.

There. You can package it up with Enneagrams and ship them back to your favorite, meddlesome diocesan consultant.

My work here is done! [Snigger]

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
]Yeah? Well, you're both so ESTJ. And ken.

(Actually I come out consistently as ENFP, usually pretty near the extremes of that description)

[ 31. August 2012, 18:59: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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I see myself as an introvert who had to learn to be extrovert to survive in the Civil Service and the Union and my volunteer work. But I have bad patches and good patches and I have chosen never to label myself with other people's ideas of what I should or shouldn't be.

My twin (who knows me best of all my siblings) laughed out loud when I said I was a born introvert.

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Even more so than I was before

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passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:

My twin...

Good grief! There are two? [Eek!]
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
There are times when one response is preferential to the other.

Which is the entire point. It's about preferences. Not about clear-cut "this is always right".

[ 31. August 2012, 23:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:

My twin...

Good grief! There are two? [Eek!]
[Big Grin] That's how we arrange 24 hour coverage in Hell.

[Biased]

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Even more so than I was before

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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quote:
Originally posted by chive:
People always find ways of justifying their bad behaviour. That's what leo's use of the Myers thingy is all about. I'm incredibly introverted, I hate being in groups and making small talk but every day professionally I talk to hundreds of people for a living. It's a piece of piss. You learn how to do what you need and if you're not prepared to do that and blame some spurious psychological nonsense for it, frankly you're just a fuckwit.

Fo Shizzle

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:

My twin...

Good grief! There are two? [Eek!]
[Big Grin] That's how we arrange 24 hour coverage in Hell.

[Biased]

Shit, why am I always online with the evil one...
I'd like to see the good one, just once. mutter, mutter...

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Patdys--

Be careful what you wish for! [Paranoid]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
There are times when one response is preferential to the other.

Which is the entire point. It's about preferences. Not about clear-cut "this is always right".
Precisely, so how do you decide which option to pick, when either might come into play in any given hypothetical situation? It's impossible to make a blanket generalization, and ludicrous that people actually base suitability for employment on this farcical rubbish.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
What I am offended about is your frankly repugnant off the cuff remark that I have no part in Christ (and yes, I do consider this very, very offensive).

He didn't say that.

You took it the wrong way.

What was the right way to take it?

I can see that it might have been meant as an insult. I can see that it might have been meant as a rebuke. I can't see any way in which it could possibly have been meant to be nice.

First off, leo did not say that la vie en rouge had no part in Christ. That is her interpretation of his comment.

He said:

quote:
Then Jesus probably has little to offer you.
The point was a theological one, not a personal one.

If leo was "rebuking" la vie en rouge then it was only in the same sense Jesus rebukes Peter when Peter denies that Jesus must suffer.

Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He said all this quite openly.

And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

But turning and looking at his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, ‘Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.’


I think if you look at the context on the actual thread - it is clearer.

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a theological scrapbook

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:

My twin...

Good grief! There are two? [Eek!]
[Big Grin] That's how we arrange 24 hour coverage in Hell.

[Biased]

Shit, why am I always online with the evil one...
I'd like to see the good one, just once. mutter, mutter...

that is the good one! you don't wanna see Bad Petey... nobody wants to see Bad Petey. Back before I met Bad Petey, I was a sweet sunday school teacher who had never said a foul word, drank a drop of alcohol, or grabbed a man's package in a public place.

now look at me. Run! Save yourself!

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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We've had Myers-Briggs threads before. To sum up: it has decent psychometrics, but the actual results don't support the theory it's based on, and the real question is whether it's of any use beyond being a parlor game for people who've spent a lot of time in therapy.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If leo was "rebuking" la vie en rouge then it was only in the same sense Jesus rebukes Peter when Peter denies that Jesus must suffer.

Why is it that the classic comparison of behaviour is to Jesus rebuking people or driving out traders with a whip when justifying behaving like an arsehole? Don't people get that comparing yourself to Jesus in such a situation makes you look like an even bigger arsehole?

"You think I'm bad, but really I'm just like Jesus. And no-one ever accused him of having a messiah-complex"

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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No dude. You missed the point again.

It's the suffering issue. They were discussing wounded healers and healed healers. leo was just pointing out Jesus was certainly in the former category.

Tho in effect, they were talking past each other because he wasn't denying the "healed" (post resurrection) - just pointing out the "wounded". i.e. Jesus' earthly ministry was not termed by some kind of theology of glory. That happens later.

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a theological scrapbook

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's the suffering issue. They were discussing wounded healers and healed healers. leo was just pointing out Jesus was certainly in the former category.

And the way that most people would make that point would be to say that:

"I see Jesus as a wounded healer" - "The idea of Jesus as a wounded healer has been helpful to me" - "Don't you think that the gospels emphasise Jesus's woundedness as well as his strength?".

The way that leo chose to make the point was to say: "Jesus has nothing to say to you". Which, to a Christian, is going to be offensive. Obviously offensive, and, unless leo has absolutely no social skills at all, intended to be offensive.

Which leaves two alternatives: either vie deserved an offensive rebuke, or leo was being an arsehole.

I've read the thread, and I think I know which it was.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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Whatever.

I think she took something personally which was not meant personally. Too touchy.

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a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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p.s. You're getting confused again btw Eliab.

leo did not say la vie has no part in Christ or that Jesus has nothing to say to her.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Whatever.

I think she took something personally which was not meant personally. Too touchy.

No, she's not. If someone, who supposedly understands Christianity, said that to me I'd be offended as well. Not to mention no one has the right to tell anyone how they should feel. The right thing, or dare I say Christian thing to do if someone tells you they've been hurt by something you said is to apologize because whether you meant it or not, they were hurt.

--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

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I saw a movie once where a wife catches her husband in bed with another woman.

The wife keeps asking "who is that woman?" while the husband keeps responding "what woman?" as the woman gets dressed and leaves the room.

Finally the man convinces the wife she did not see what she saw. That is evensong's modus operandi except it doesn't work as well in a text-based medium.

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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
Not to mention no one has the right to tell anyone how they should feel.

Now we're talking about feelings?? [Confused]

It was a theological point for crying out loud! He wasn't trying to offend IMO. Even la vie has admitted that offense may not have been what leo intended.

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
The right thing, or dare I say Christian thing to do if someone tells you they've been hurt by something you said is to apologize because whether you meant it or not, they were hurt.

Fair enough. And I suspect most of us on this Ship would do so if we learnt in real life that we had offended someone inadvertently. But must we apologize for such a thing on a purgatorial discussion board?

*shrug*.....up to the persons involved methinks.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I saw a movie once where a wife catches her husband in bed with another woman.

The wife keeps asking "who is that woman?" while the husband keeps responding "what woman?" as the woman gets dressed and leaves the room.

Finally the man convinces the wife she did not see what she saw.

That's a terrible analogy considering you know some of my recent history.

I'd be the wife making a eunuch of my husband.

And I wouldn't be bothering about cauterization either.

I told my husband as much fairly early on in our marriage.

He has agreed on decapitation if I was the offending party.

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
That is evensong's modus operandi except it doesn't work as well in a text-based medium.

No my dear. It's called "People Really Do Think Differently and Understand Things Differently - Especially in a Text Based Medium When So Many Things Can Go Wrong".

I guess it's another reason why I call myself a postmodernist.

"Truth", for us feebles, is very subjective.

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a theological scrapbook

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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783

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Fancy that. Evensong sees herself as a postmodernist.
I always kinda thought of her as a fencepost modernist because a fencepost is the object which she is almost as bright as.
Or so it seems to me.

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
The right thing, or dare I say Christian thing to do if someone tells you they've been hurt by something you said is to apologize because whether you meant it or not, they were hurt.

Fair enough. And I suspect most of us on this Ship would do so if we learnt in real life that we had offended someone inadvertently. But must we apologize for such a thing on a purgatorial discussion board?

*shrug*.....up to the persons involved methinks.

Ah, situational ethics.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It was a theological point for crying out loud

It was a theological point expressed in a personally offensive way. The same theological point could have been expressed in an abstract inoffensive way, or a personal but respectful way.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But must we apologize for such a thing on a purgatorial discussion board?.....up to the persons involved methinks.

Obviously it is up to the person involved, as it is up to the rest of us to decide whether to think them a sanctimonious prig if they fail to apologise for being crassly offensive.

[ 01. September 2012, 19:43: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
Not to mention no one has the right to tell anyone how they should feel.

Now we're talking about feelings?? [Confused]
WTF do you think "touchy" refers to if not someone's emotional reactions? Fuckwit.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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I wasn't aware leo was telling la vie how to feel. Fuckwit.

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a theological scrapbook

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Then you don't understand the English language well enough to use it.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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I understand the English language well enough to know when someone has written "You should feel.....".

I'm also sufficiently familiar with basic hermeneutics to know that misunderstanding amongst people of the same language is very common.

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a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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"Touchy" means "more sensitive than you should feel."

[ 02. September 2012, 06:36: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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Dude......I was responding to the comment that Nitowl said leo told la vie how she should feel. [Roll Eyes] Nothing to do with what I said.

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a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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You can't speak it OR read it properly.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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Boy am I glad we sorted that out!

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a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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I'm sure leo doesn't merit this interest in real life.

[Killing me]

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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I’ve come to the conclusion that the misunderstanding, if it can be called that, arises from a significant difference in our opinion of leo’s place in the world.

Leo’s primary interest, AFAICT, is being perceived as clever. He throws out what he thinks is a brilliant cryptic one-liner and expects me to go “oh really, whatever can you mean by that? You’re so clever, mr leo sir and you know so much more than I do about, well everything really, please condescend to instruct me. Thank you mr leo sir, I am your humble disciple.”

Now in a classroom full of thirteen year-olds I can see how this might work. Thing is, I am not thirteen, and I am under the impression that we are adults having a dialogue of equals. So I just read what he actually said, and think “who the HELL do you think you are to decide whether my Saviour has anything to offer me? I mean I know you were arrogant but that’s beyond the pale.”

(I know, I know, I said I wasn't going to call him to hell. In my defence, the only reason I gave for not doing it was laziness [Razz] )

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
He throws out what he thinks is a brilliant cryptic one-liner and expects me to go “oh really, whatever can you mean by that? You’re so clever, mr leo sir and you know so much more than I do about, well everything really, please condescend to instruct me. Thank you mr leo sir, I am your humble disciple.”

Now in a classroom full of thirteen year-olds I can see how this might work.

Spent much time in an English mainstream school recently? I'm guessing not.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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Oh well there goes my theory then. Or maybe leo just had crap classroom control. [Biased]

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I know, I know, I said I wasn't going to call him to hell. In my defence, the only reason I gave for not doing it was laziness [Razz] )

Glad to see you've repented.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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I think, la vie en rouge, leo has led an extremely circumscribed, rather "churchly" sort of life.

My gut feeling is that this is not good for anyone.

That "wounded healer" phrase was like an old nag fit only for the knacker's yard.

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Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
I think, la vie en rouge, leo has led an extremely circumscribed, rather "churchly" sort of life.

Thirty years teaching in urban comprehensive schools doesn't sound very 'churchly' to me.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
I think, la vie en rouge, leo has led an extremely circumscribed, rather "churchly" sort of life.

Thirty years teaching in urban comprehensive schools doesn't sound very 'churchly' to me.
OK then, not churchly, but if you spend all your working life in the same kind of school, and your worshipping life in the same kind of church, you are unlikely to gain a broad appreciation. Do I know what life's like for professional sportsmen or royalty? Not a clue. Does it stop me commenting on them? Not one bit, but I don't pretend to be what I'm not.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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Oh, I agree, Sioni. Leo's experience might well be narrow even if it isn't exclusively churchy. But we don't know; maybe he posts on churchy things on the Ship, on football on a sporting website, on steam trains, real ale, housing policy, Italian cooking, in other places.

He doesn't help himself by not revealing glimpses of his 'hinterland'. But we don't know whether he's got one or not.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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I think leo means well enough most of the time and maybe it's a kind of old-fashioned teacher-ish thing that makes some of his comments unsympathetic and proscriptive. A kind of automatic dismissiveness of those who 'won't' be taught!

I have to admit, whatever I personally feel about his posts at times, I admire his determination to persevere. I don't know if it applies to leo, or not, but in general teachers in the UK secondary school system also get my admiration.

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
...

He doesn't help himself by not revealing glimpses of his 'hinterland'. But we don't know whether he's got one or not.

Everyone has a hinterland: rich, barren or in between.

I'm not trying to psychoanalyse nor put Leo down, I just think his angle of vision, as exemplified by posts on these boards, appears limited.

SOF exists, in the main so people can speak out. The fact that many posters have done so for years and others have interacted with them for the same period means people will get rubbed the wrong way thus resulting in Hell calls.

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged



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