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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Really?
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I don't know if y'all remember, but back in 2003 a young woman from the US decided to protest Israeli demolishing of Palestinian homes. Dressed in an orange vest and carrying a bull horn, she stood between a military bulldozer and a Palestinian home to stop the destruction of the home. She failed. Not only was the home destroyed; she was destroyed as well. The bulldozer simply ran her over.
Her parents sued in Israel. They lost. The judge ruled it was a regrettable accident.
I have no intention of getting into the rights, or wrongs, of destruction of Palestinian homes. That is a thread for Purgatory as far as I am concerned.
What chaps my ass is that any reasonable person could call this an "accident." Bull Shit.
There would have been more than one soldier there. They could have bodily lifted her out of the way. Instead, they chose to "accidentally" not see this undoubtedly loud and shouting through a bull horn person dressed in an orange vest and run her over.
The judge said any reasonable person would have left the scene. Maybe. But, this unreasonable person was trying to stop an act she saw as unreasonable.
Ask it another way. What reasonable person would believe running her over with a bulldozer would not kill her?
You can explain politics until you are blue in the face. This was not politics. This was a bunch of assholes who considered any Palestinian, and any Palestinian lover, to be worthless scum to be killed with impunity.
If you train, or allow, your soldiers to hate, they will only commit further atrocities and make the enemy hate them more. Surely someone in Israel has figured this out by now.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Sometimes I think my government's support of the Israeli government has created a monster.
"My daddy can beat up your daddy, so I can get away with murder." In this case, literally.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
You do not train or allow soliders to hate so much as to obey and to kill. The only way a human being can do that is to distance themselves from truth.
I'm afraid that is the nature of war.......totally dehumanising.....
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is easy to single out one incident and one person to make points. It could be asked, for instance, about drone bombers which kill civilians regularly and why might they not be sent. Maybe the woman was simply 'collateral damage' per the popular military euphemism. I've also watched tapes of military helicopter pilots shooting in error into groups of civilians, and then shooting again to complete the killing as the wounded struggle and wiggle after being shot. The error is usually in the title of the video.
It seems to me that war zones - and much of the middle east is indeed a war zone, particularly the area of this incident - are places where others desire to kill. I do not justify that this woman was killed nor the explanation. But this is what human beings do to each other when the evil within us is released.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
You may be right about war, Evensong. But when did Israel declare war on citizens of the U.S.?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It is easy to single out one incident and one person to make points. It could be asked, for instance, about drone bombers which kill civilians regularly and why might they not be sent. Maybe the woman was simply 'collateral damage' per the popular military euphemism. I've also watched tapes of military helicopter pilots shooting in error into groups of civilians, and then shooting again to complete the killing as the wounded struggle and wiggle after being shot. The error is usually in the title of the video.
Driving over a civilian who simply wouldn't get out of the way when one could stop or have her removed bodily is in no way an accident or an error. It is a cold and calculated act.
quote:
It seems to me that war zones - and much of the middle east is indeed a war zone, particularly the area of this incident - are places where others desire to kill. I do not justify that this woman was killed nor the explanation. But this is what human beings do to each other when the evil within us is released.
Even in war zones acts occur that are not acts of war. Maybe the woman was, according to the law that pertains, breaking a law. Where in the world does driving bulldozers over protestors form part of law enforcement (I mean, apart from China, c 1989).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Driving over a civilian who simply wouldn't get out of the way when one could stop or have her removed bodily is in no way an accident or an error. It is a cold and calculated act.
If the driver could see her. Which seems to have been the key point, with even the expert witness called by the Corrie family, AIUI, testifying that he may not have been able to see her.
Of course, if you were driving that vehicle and you knew that there *had* been a person there moments before, and you couldn't now see her, you would stop. And so would I.
Even so, I don't think I know enough to say that the driver calculated on causing her death.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[/qb]
Driving over a civilian who simply wouldn't get out of the way when one could stop or have her removed bodily is in no way an accident or an error. It is a cold and calculated act.
quote:
I agree. Many of the atrocities that are excused as acts of war are in fact violence visited on unarmed people, and even people who are not aware they're being targetted. No doubt the military can justify its actions via "rules of engagement".
quote:
continued by Sioni
Even in war zones acts occur that are not acts of war. Maybe the woman was, according to the law that pertains, breaking a law. Where in the world does driving bulldozers over protestors form part of law enforcement (I mean, apart from China, c 1989).
Or Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or much of Latin America, many countries in Asia.
I find the idea of some things being 'not acts of war' as a weasily way for gov'ts and militaries to justify their actions. If a gov't decides running someone over is an act of war and thus okay, apparently they are willing to do it. I suspect they don't agree with the definition of the woman's actions as breaking a law.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Some things that aren't acts of war are war crimes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
And some things that are acts of war, are war crimes. And some terrorists are patriots or revolutionaries, and God is the devil as this reasoning goes.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Where in the world does driving bulldozers over protestors form part of law enforcement (I mean, apart from China, c 1989).
Even the Chinese laid on the brakes.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
Maybe some older shipmate--or one who studies modern histor--can help out here.
quote:
But when did Israel declare war on citizens of the U.S.?
I believe that in the late 1960s Israeli jets bombed a U.S. Navy vessel, with loss of life.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I love the presumption that the evidence that the driver didn't see her MUST have been wrong.
Because, you know, we all have such extensive experience of driving bulldozers and we all know from halfway around the world exactly what the driver's field of vision was like.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
When our kids were younger and we had a really stupid dog, I had a simple test for when I could start backing the car out of the garage.
I waited until I had a visual on all three of them.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I love the presumption that the evidence that the driver didn't see her MUST have been wrong.
Because, you know, we all have such extensive experience of driving bulldozers and we all know from halfway around the world exactly what the driver's field of vision was like.
I cannot believe the driver of the 'dozer was alone. OThers would have been present who could either shifted the woman or alerted the driver. for one reason or another they did neither.
You don't need to be an eye-witness to work that out.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
When our kids were younger and we had a really stupid dog, I had a simple test for when I could start backing the car out of the garage.
I waited until I had a visual on all three of them.
By that logic, the bulldozer had to wait until an official census of the town was done and a headcount completed.
Please note, I'm not positively asserting that the driver definitely didn't see her. I just object to the idea that people halfway around the world are somehow in a better position to assess the evidence than the witnesses in the case and the judge.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I drove a bulldozer over a small pickup truck without noticing once. But then, I'm not very good at driving skid-steer.
None of this is an excuse.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
When our kids were younger and we had a really stupid dog, I had a simple test for when I could start backing the car out of the garage.
I waited until I had a visual on all three of them.
How many did you get?
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
When our kids were younger and we had a really stupid dog, I had a simple test for when I could start backing the car out of the garage.
I waited until I had a visual on all three of them.
By that logic, the bulldozer had to wait until an official census of the town was done and a headcount completed.
Please note, I'm not positively asserting that the driver definitely didn't see her. I just object to the idea that people halfway around the world are somehow in a better position to assess the evidence than the witnesses in the case and the judge.
The event was filmed and shown in the UK a few years ago in a documentary on her death. Having seen the footage, I find the description of the her death as an accident extremely unconvincing.
Essentially, they had the option to arrest and physically move the protesters. They didn't.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
When our kids were younger and we had a really stupid dog, I had a simple test for when I could start backing the car out of the garage.
I waited until I had a visual on all three of them.
By that logic, the bulldozer had to wait until an official census of the town was done and a headcount completed.
Please note, I'm not positively asserting that the driver definitely didn't see her. I just object to the idea that people halfway around the world are somehow in a better position to assess the evidence than the witnesses in the case and the judge.
The event was filmed and shown in the UK a few years ago in a documentary on her death. Having seen the footage, I find the description of the her death as an accident extremely unconvincing.
Essentially, they had the option to arrest and physically move the protesters. They didn't.
Okay, I wasn't aware there was footage.
I have to ask though: what the blazes were (1) the other protesters and (2) the cameraman doing while all this was going on?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You can probably find the film on youtube. You need to look for "An American Conscience". It also includes the deaths of various international civilian activists. Brian Avery who was shot in the face, Tom Cardell who was shot in the back of head, whilst a assisting a child to move out of the field of gun fire - the Israelis were firing at a crowd of civilians from a watchtower.
Rachel Corrie's death is far from an isolated incident, and the Israeli army is almost never prepared to take responsibility for its actions.
[ 31. August 2012, 07:16: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm certainly prepared to accept the notion of a pattern, but I'm also very aware of the dangers of pattern evidence: the Israeli army kills people, therefore the Israeli army killed this person.
(Well, actually, the killing isn't in question, the lawfulness of it is)
I'm no friend of the Israeli military, by the way. Or at least, Israeli military policy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Biased, but short, video.
The blade is not as tall as her.
I'd say that is Murder 1.
And, I am not depending on her friend's accounts. The operator could see her. If he, in fact, didn't see her it was because he lifted the blade so as not to see her.
The judge in the article I linked to in the OP expressed a version of events that cannot be true: quote:
In his ruling, Judge Gershon said the military’s mission that day “was not, in any way, to destroy homes,” but to clear brush and explosives “to prevent acts of hatred and terror.” He said the bulldozer was moving slowly, about 1 kilometer per hour, and that the driver could not have seen Ms. Corrie, finding “no base to the plaintiff’s claim that the bulldozer hit her on purpose.”
It really doesn't matter how thinly you slice bologna. It is still bologna.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
i believe that the Israeli military is every bit as militant and ruthless as the suicide bombers (there's a MASS of horror stories that the western media conveniently ignore) like the bombing of a UN base for heaven's sake. Link here
Stupidly naive of the young woman in question to think that her US citizenship or her oh-so-so civilised and outdated mode of protest would make one jot of difference to the Israeli military-her death was imminently foreseeable what a stupid and pointless waste, just like those who blow themselves up in marketplaces.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I was in Palestine shortly after Ms. Corrie's death, and I was impressed by how deeply the people there were moved by the sacrifice she made for them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
The situation in regard to the Israeli government and those who work under its aegis against the Palestinians is rather a dark one. This incident cannot be isolated from others which do show a certain consistency of policy.
There are, indeed, brave Israelis who do speak out against this consistent policy but they don't seem to have much effect.
I dread what is going to happen in the next 20 years. If the balance of power in the Middle East continues to shift the way it appears to be doing and the USA follows a more even handed policy in the area there will be a Day of Reckoning and it will be a bloody one.
Sadly, it appears the Israeli government has no historical vision.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Like to explicate further, passer?
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
< >
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I think it's shorthand for agreeing with you. I'm pretty sure that passer can speak douchebag, so he can explain it further for you in terms you can understand if necessary.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Maybe he/she knows how we feel about saying "Ditto".
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Sadly, it appears the Israeli government has no historical vision.
It does--but I suspect it boils down to "God gave us this land, and no one is going to hurt us ever again".
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Like to explicate further, passer?
Apologies, Sir P., I missed your post. It's what RooK said.
It's shorthand for "I completely agree with what you have written above". The circonflexe points upwards to your post.
We don't have a Like button, and as Grits points out, we don't especially like Ditto round these parts!
I obviously spend too much time on Facebook.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Um, various Shipmates have been using "this" for a while.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Um, various Shipmates have been using "this" for a while.
Um, yes I know. But Sir P. didn't, so an explanation was only reasonable.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Um, IMSVHO & YMMV I find 'um' at the beginning of the post just a smidge passive aggressive but I wouldn't want you to feel uncomfortable about using it, just want to raise awareness that it can be a problem for some people, yeah ?
for all people with problems
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Um, various Shipmates have been using "this" for a while.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have deja key ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Um, various Shipmates have been using "this" for a while.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Thrice gilded ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Are some of you connecting the specifics of this incident with more general support for one of the sides: Palestinian - Israeli?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
DT--
Sorry, really bad connection.
passer--
Yes, I knew that you knew! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I was just surprised at some of the reactions to your original use of "this".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Sorry passer and others.
Hadn't a clue hence the question.
Thank you.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Apologies for any clumsiness on my part. I seem to be coming down with the flu, or some such, and may have misread.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Sir P, hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable. My perception of Pete's "douchebag" comment and some comments by others led me to think that people were getting upset over the use of "this", and I didn't understand why.
DT, when I use "um", it's not meant to be passive-aggressive. Maybe that's a pond thing? IME, Americans use it at the beginning of a sentence when we're not sure how the listener will react, but we feel we need to say something and we want to try to defuse any negative reaction..
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, I knew that you knew! I was just surprised at some of the reactions to your original use of "this".
Um, no prob ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Not like me to overreact.....
I read too much of this sort of thing! (click on view previous comments for the full thread)
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, I knew that you knew! I was just surprised at some of the reactions to your original use of "this".
Um, no prob Not like me to overreact.....
I read too much of this sort of thing! (click on view previous comments for the full thread)
The British equivalent seems to be on the lines of:
"So, Judge Bowers thinks this burglar's brave does he?"
Commencing with "So" gives me the creeps. I really wouldn't want to meet them face-to-face. Then again, people who use "so" like that would behave differently in RL.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Sir P, hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable. My perception of Pete's "douchebag" comment and some comments by others led me to think that people were getting upset over the use of "this", and I didn't understand why.
Um, (to me this means you fuckwit), if you knew how to attach avatars to quotes, you would not make such a gross misattribution. I deny I used the word douchebag.
Except now, when I see you post in Hell, I will think that.
I am in agreement with Doublethink so these "pond things" to which you refer are not.
[ 06. September 2012, 23:56: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
DT, when I use "um", it's not meant to be passive-aggressive. Maybe that's a pond thing? IME, Americans use it at the beginning of a sentence when we're not sure how the listener will react, but we feel we need to say something and we want to try to defuse any negative reaction..
It's probably a regional thing, since I use (well, useD) it the same way until someone helpfully posted an explanation of how other people were taking it. I suspect I picked it up a generation down from a Michiganer, though it could be Tennessee or Iowa for all I know. But yes, I grew up with it being a polite noise made to try to defuse negative reactions (like a quick "excuse me" as you dart in for a moment)
Anyway, I'm working very hard on not "umming" people now that I know it has the opposite effect on so many of y'all!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
"Um" in real life when you have intonation is a totally different thing from "um" in text where you don't -- especially on the internet, where I believe it's long been established as a snarky thing to say.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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