homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Which universe does she live in? (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Which universe does she live in?
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Every so often one stumbles across people who clearly live in a different reality. Sometimes, as with Mormons and Muslims, the big lie they live by is to do with religion. In other cases, it is other things that have bewitched them. So it is here: this foolish rant appealing for a general strike once more proves that there are people who are largely unaware of how the world actually works today. If the TUC called for a general strike, assuming that the private sector employees don't get involved, as they have not done in the past, then it would rapidly get very unpleasant for the weak and sick - but for most of the population, it would be a non-event. The utilities and public transport would continue unaffected. So would they call out staff in the NHS? The BBC? The benefit offices? Taxes would still be collected. Schools might be shut - but that would be inconvenient, not catastrophic. The prison service would need to be staffed, but the loss of social services would only be a problem for the poor.

And underlying this is the suggestion that the unions have the right to alter the policy of a government elected with a very clear majority of the population in the coalition - unlike Maggie's. Either we are a democracy - OR the unions have the right to bully us into doing what they believe is right. That was largely decided 28 years ago - but the lesson has not been learnt, it seems, by a new generation. The people have spoken; if you want to withdraw your labour, you will hurt the vulnerable. Lots. But contracting out has minimised the effectiveness of your threats (the computer programs that collect taxes were one of the first things to be contracted out after a round of strikes by the then Inland Revenue.

And of course the ultimate problem is the belief that there must be a painless solution to the present problems. There must be an answer that doesn't require a lot of cuts. And that's the really scary thing: some people really have no grasp of the real world, but like to believe in easy answers. Nothing new of course... but still really really depressing.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know it's late, but really. Penny Red is prophetic voice - unlike you.

So fuck off to bed, you tedious Tory. Leave it to people of good heart to stand on the barricades.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055

 - Posted      Profile for Pre-cambrian   Email Pre-cambrian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Sometimes, as with Mormons and Muslims, the big lie they live by is to do with religion.

Mormons, Muslims, and Ender's Shadow. So far I can't see any difference between the three.

--------------------
"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297

 - Posted      Profile for Below the Lansker     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

And underlying this is the suggestion that the unions have the right to alter the policy of a government elected with a very clear majority of the population in the coalition - unlike Maggie's. Either we are a democracy - OR the unions have the right to bully us into doing what they believe is right.

A 'very clear majority of the population in the coalition'? I doubt very much whether the majority of those who voted for the LibDems realised where their votes would eventually lead. Whether you like her or not (and I most certainly did not), Maggie won elections with clear majorities, and at least the old cow was straightforward and clear about what she stood for (on that note at least, she compares very favourably with Clegg).
In socio-political terms, the unions have as much 'right to bully us into doing what they believe is right' (sic) as the banks or corporations. Our readings of Scripture will inevitably be coloured by our a-priori political positions - ES's mind seems to be already made up as to who is in the right and who is in the wrong - and Scripture seems to have played no part in that.

Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I know it's late, but really. Penny Red is prophetic voice - unlike you.

So fuck off to bed, you tedious Tory. Leave it to people of good heart to stand on the barricades.

If you insist on defending the irrational, you are not being prophetic, you are being deluded. The idea that we can go on spending as we have been, expecting 'something to turn up', which appears to be the logic of this woman, is what ran Greece into the ground, is making Spain and Italy look very uncomfortable, and costing the Germans a fortune. Note that she's not apparently proposing tax rises, just denying the necessity of austerity. Now there IS a case for raising taxes to maintain public services - though not a very good one (the drag on the economy would be a big issue). But just declaring 'there is an alternative because I want there to be' is just... sad.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

 - Posted      Profile for Arrietty   Author's homepage   Email Arrietty   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the policy of a government elected with a very clear majority of the population in the coalition

Nobody voted for the coalition.

--------------------
i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the policy of a government elected with a very clear majority of the population in the coalition

Nobody voted for the coalition.
Even if they did, and actually there are people who would strongly advocate co-operative politics and hence support coalition governments in principle, it would be irrelevant.

We do not have a political system where all policy decisions are made every 4-5 years at election time and the government can simply enact those decisions when in office. It couldn't work anyway, because governments are elected on a raft of policies which I doubt anyone who voted for that party would support 100%. We have a political system that allows for, even encourages, debate of policies during the course of Parliament. There are a range of options available to get your opinion heard; writing to MPs, petitioning ministers, marches and demonstrations. Strikes, even General Strikes, are a legitimate option that can be taken in protest over a range of issues. That Maggie managed to get legislature passed that would make many strikes illegal doesn't make it an illegitimate form of action - it's just those taking strike action that doesn't fall within the narrow confines of the law face legal penalties. In many cases we admire people who make a stand on principle that is illegal - how many Israeli men have gone to prison for not being press-ganged into the army, and been saluted by many?

Of course, one can (indeed one should) discuss whether or not any particular government policy is so wrong that strike action is justified. One can question whether a General Strike would be effective. But to call someone engaging in the public debate on government policies, even if they do so by advocating something you disagree with, as irrational and deluded does one thing. It shows you up as irrational and deluded.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the policy of a government elected with a very clear majority of the population in the coalition

Nobody voted for the coalition.
Given that the whole basis of representative government is that the representatives are empowered by their electors to vote as they think right at the time, you are challenging that. You have the right to do so - but that's not a valid critique of what happened on this occasion. Anyone who didn't vote for either the conservatives or labour knew that they were encouraging the formation of a coalition of some sort, unless they recognised they were just wasting their vote except in as far as they were 'sending a message'.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If a general strike brought down this excuse for a government that would be a very good thing.

But I blame Thatcher for all of this, she the one who began the terribly destructive 'the market rules' policies ... I am very tempted by these party packs.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Anyone who didn't vote for either the conservatives or labour knew that they were encouraging the formation of a coalition of some sort, unless they recognised they were just wasting their vote except in as far as they were 'sending a message'.

Yep. I won't make that mistake again. Keeping the Tories out will be number 1 at the next election.

(I voted Green)

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

 - Posted      Profile for Zoey   Email Zoey   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(Tangent/)

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the loss of social services would only be a problem for the poor.

I'm a children's social worker. I think the above statement is incorrect in a number of ways.

However, my overwhelming response to the attitude displayed in that statement is extreme sadness. What you seem to be saying, Ender's Shadow, is that nobody gives a toss for those suffering hardship and disadvantage or for children suffering significant (often life-threatening) harm - after all they're only poor people and poor people's children. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me to know that this sentiment exists in the world, but when I read your statement while thinking of the children and families my colleagues and I support ..... [Frown]

(/Tangent)

--------------------
Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Penny Red apparently wants a general strike in order to force the government to turn Britain into Greece.

Hasn't really thought that one through, has she?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Still, a general strike is a spectacularly bad idea. And so passé.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, it seems that the Loony Left is still alive and well...

To reiterate what I've said here before, since 2008, I've had to lay off or otherwise lose 75% of my staff, the remaining staff have had to endure a 20% pay cut and my business partner and me a 50% pay cut. Our story, to judge by others in the private sector I know, is fairly indicative of the SME end of the private sector, and it really sticks in our craw to see the likes of Red Penny demanding that we cough up more money (either through more taxes or higher interest rates) to improve the lot of her and her comrades, or they'll stage a mass walkout which will achieve fuck all (how can it be otherwise?) other than to piss a lot of people off by inconveniencing them eg: working parents like me having to lose a day's pay to look after our kids every time the teachers down tools.

So, I would indeed question which unreal planet the OP subject is on; she and her bolshie comrades need to wake up and smell the coffee - in the words of Galadriel, "the world has changed", and they've got a helluva lot of catch-up to do.

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So if you genuinely believed the government's economic policies are making the situation worse not better, for private and public sector, you wouldn't think it worth drawing their attention to that ?

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ah yes, Laurie Penny. The kind of person who makes me embarrassed to be on the Left. I've never quite worked out why she looks so cross and miserable in her column pictures: she's about 26 and has a successful and high profile career as a columnist (= a licence to air your views to a wide audience on any topic, without necessarily having to know much about anything in particular, and get - I imagine fairly well- paid for it). What has she got to look miserable about, or at least look any more miserable than the rest of us? Perhaps it's a rather unconvincing attempt to live down the privileged background (minor public school, Oxford), that has got her to that place. Such a posture is not uncommon among people of that type.

As Alexei Sayle used to say about the SWP (another bunch of middle class fantasists, BTW), no doubt the reason they're always calling for a general strike is that they remember what a success the last one was. There are, what, 6 million trade unionists in the UK? Only about 1 private sector worker in 7 is a union member. I would like to see those figures greatly increased, but the point here is that even leaving aside the question of principle, as the OP points out, a general strike would hit all the wrong things. Furthermore, it's not difficult to imagine how the government, Mail etc, would present it to all those non-unionised squeezed middle types whose lives would only be further disrupted by it. If you want to drive that class of voter into the arms of the Tories and maybe even the Lib Dems for a generation, just call a general strike: look at the propaganda value that until very recently- and perhaps even a bit now- the Tories have got from the Winter of Discontent.

Actually, as Peter Wilby points out in his diary column in this week's New Statesman, it's capital that has been on strike for some time: financial institutions sitting on huge piles of money which they are noit lending because the returns available are not those which they want. We are told that lending is essential to the economy: if the workers in essential indistries were on prolonged strike, the government would be sending troops in to keep supplies moving, but when capital goes on strike, the most they seem to do is wring their hands- if, that is, they notice what is happening at all.

[ 15. September 2012, 08:46: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Public service and entrepreneurial capitalism are and are supposed to be two different environments. Part of the same economy, yes, but when did you ever hear of a teacher who got a massive bonus because a particular class got exceptional exam results? Or a doctor in an NHS hospital who got a performance bonus because a delicate operation went well? If you are going to live by the capitalist sword, you must be prepared to die by it too. And yes, I work in the private sector and have accepted the consequences of this, however reluctantly.

This doesn't mean that this particular incendiary columnist has a point, but it doesn't mean either that public sector workers should worship at the feet of those in the private sector.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296

 - Posted      Profile for Jolly Jape   Email Jolly Jape   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What I find mystifying about this thread is that three of the most theologically conservative posters on the ship seem to be so happy to bow down, or, at the very least acquiesce in the bowing down of others, before the god of the market (or "mammon" as it used to be called). I would have thought such acquiescence would have, at the very least, started ringing some internal alarm bells. The faith-claims made for "market forces" are truely staggering, and right up there with those for Baal and Rephaim in their disregard of human dignity and Godly values. Indeed, there is a case for saying that capitalism is a modern fertility cult, the cult of economic, rather than biological, growth, which justifies every excess as the necessary cost of placating this wanton and evil god.

--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nah, I can't stand the Mammon represented by investment banking, either; most people involved in SMEs have no great love for the City. For us, it's a Hobson's choice between that idolatry and worshipping the Leviathan of the State. Neither appeals.

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

 - Posted      Profile for ThunderBunk   Email ThunderBunk   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Most of the "leviathan" of the state has become levaithan like because of attempts to ape the private sector. The prime example of this is the NHS, which looks like a single organisation from the outside but is actually a huge web of interlocking small feifdoms, which are not allowed to do anything together because of competition laws. Accountability disappears into an organisational pinyata, and all because of market idolatry.

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Nah, I can't stand the Mammon represented by investment banking, either; most people involved in SMEs have no great love for the City. For us, it's a Hobson's choice between that idolatry and worshipping the Leviathan of the State. Neither appeals.

Indeed: you know the City's the enemy- you know from bitter experience how screwed you've been by an economy geared to the wishes of the financial sector. But because they've got you thinking in those very dualistic terms, and planted a particular image of the alternative in your mind, when it comes to the crunch, you stick with them. Classic Lukes third face of power stuff.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
(Tangent/)

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
the loss of social services would only be a problem for the poor.

I'm a children's social worker. I think the above statement is incorrect in a number of ways.

However, my overwhelming response to the attitude displayed in that statement is extreme sadness. What you seem to be saying, Ender's Shadow, is that nobody gives a toss for those suffering hardship and disadvantage or for children suffering significant (often life-threatening) harm - after all they're only poor people and poor people's children. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me to know that this sentiment exists in the world, but when I read your statement while thinking of the children and families my colleagues and I support ..... [Frown]

(/Tangent)

Whoops - I entirely failed to make myself clear: I was suggesting that the victims of a strike of social workers would mainly be the poor. This would have minimal impact on the people who make the decisions; at best it would be the classic hostage situation: 'Change your mind or the defenceless will get damaged'. So, no - I'm arguing that the fact that the poor would get it in the neck is a real cause for concern.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
What I find mystifying about this thread is that three of the most theologically conservative posters on the ship seem to be so happy to bow down, or, at the very least acquiesce in the bowing down of others, before the god of the market (or "mammon" as it used to be called). I would have thought such acquiescence would have, at the very least, started ringing some internal alarm bells. The faith-claims made for "market forces" are truely staggering, and right up there with those for Baal and Rephaim in their disregard of human dignity and Godly values. Indeed, there is a case for saying that capitalism is a modern fertility cult, the cult of economic, rather than biological, growth, which justifies every excess as the necessary cost of placating this wanton and evil god.

Interesting challenge. The question is whether economics is genuinely a science, producing models of the real world that provide an accurate guide as to what the consequences of certain policies will be, or whether it is merely mumbo-jumbo. As I've argued with monotonous regularity on these boards, the massive reduction in poverty in Asia as a result of adoption of free market policies rather than socialism in China, and the licence Raj in India, indicates to me that economics deserves to be taken seriously a science. Therefore it is no more rational to complain that you can't achieve economic growth while throttling the private sector than it to complain that if I release a large rock directly above my foot, I will be injured when it lands on my toes. You may not like the conclusions of science, but it is a rejection of truth merely to reject them because they are unpalatable; but Galileo's inquisitors would be proud of you. [Devil]

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

 - Posted      Profile for Pyx_e     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As ever ES you sound more like a Thatcherite lackey and general armpitmonkey than a disciple. The irony is you pointing out the mote in others eyes before examining the plank in your own.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Most of the "leviathan" of the state has become levaithan like because of attempts to ape the private sector. The prime example of this is the NHS, which looks like a single organisation from the outside but is actually a huge web of interlocking small feifdoms, which are not allowed to do anything together because of competition laws. Accountability disappears into an organisational pinyata, and all because of market idolatry.

Exactly - the 'market' has messed with Education for years.

[Frown]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The question is whether economics is genuinely a science, producing models of the real world that provide an accurate guide as to what the consequences of certain policies will be, or whether it is merely mumbo-jumbo.

Again, a curious dualism: ES seems to suggest that economics can only be either 'genuinely a science' (like physics?) or 'mumbo-jumbo'. Economics is not like physics, but neither is it mumbo-jumbo. It's an applied social science, which tells us how, under certain socially constructed circumstances, many or even most people are likely to behave. It can explain things and can help us understand the likely consequences of certain choices that we may make but the parameters within which it operates are not natural, immutable 'givens'. So it is a mistake to assume (i)that there are laws of economics in the same way that there are laws of physics and (ii) that these purported laws lead us to a particular model of capitalism. On the other hand, making these assumptions does free you from the burden of having to think about how things might be improved, which must be a great comfort to a certain type of person.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
It's an applied social science, which tells us how, under certain socially constructed circumstances, many or even most people are likely to behave. It can explain things and can help us understand the likely consequences of certain choices that we may make but the parameters within which it operates are not natural, immutable 'givens'.

No - that is where I would disagree. IMNSHO homo economicus does always do certain things. It is these things that mean that the laws of economics are in effect immutable; the best that you can do is suppress the behaviour in the short term, with a cost in the medium term.

Let us start with the simple concept of the demand curve. This claims that the demand for a product is a function of the price. This is inevitable; for different people a given product has a different value; therefore if the price is greater, for some people it makes sense not to buy it; it's not worth it to them.

Moving on to the supply curve: all that states is the supply is also a function of the price: again if I am a manufacturer of X, I will be willing to make more of an effort to produce X if the price I'm being offered is higher.

And so it goes on; each step in the establishment of classical economics follows entirely logically from easily observable behaviour. If you deter people from investing because they fear that the government will come along and steal their industry, they will be less willing to invest. If you tax profits but not bond payments, the likes of Bain will encourage companies to take loans not equity capital. If you tax both bond payments AND profits, industry will invest less.

These are the overall results. Of course you can find counter examples where people have done things that are not what the model predicts. You will also find molecules of a rock that have enough energy not to fall with the rest of the rock. But the basic laws will apply eventually in the long term. V S Naipaul's A bend in the River offers a nicely observed scenario where the local 'big man' tries to ignore economic law, as does Zimbabwe over the past 15 years. Rent control in New York City is of course another demonstration that economic laws WILL come back to bite you; when rents are insufficient to maintain the housing stock, it becomes a slum. Ultimately there is no alternative, however much you may want to rail against this situation.

Don't hear me as being opposed to all regulation; in some areas appropriate rules help even the playing field to the benefit of both sides, or transfer costs to the appropriate shoulders. Thus there should be a ban on prospective tenants having to pay a registration fee to register with an estate agent; this forces the cost onto the landlord, who is best equipped to deal with it. And there are market failures and public goods which it IS impossible to provide privately, though they are less than anyone writing in the 1970s thought (the idea of a competitive gas and electricity market was inconceivable then). But, no, on the whole the way for the poor to get richer is to let entrepreneurs invest their own money. It works, like nothing else has.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We agree that economics has a descriptive and even sometimes predictive power in terms of observation of how people are likely to behave. But all of those transactions take place within socially, culturally, and legally determined structures. What can be bought or sold, for example, or what is an acceptable way of gaining money, or even perhaps the extent to which material acquisition is acceptable, are all in princple subject to social, cultural or legal pressures which can be very strong indeed. Neo-liberal free market economics recognises this and that is why it has in general sought to break down traditional social structures and norms (including ones with a basis in religion, such as the principle of a sabbath of some kind on which economic activity ceases or is greatly reduced) which it regards as imposing inefficiencies on the operation of the market. And of course many of these things are inefficiencies if you accept the neo-liberal view of how the market should work: they are not necessarily inefficiencies if you don't.

Oh, and as to your point about letting enterpreneurs invest their own money as a means of raising overall wealth: yes, I'd agree. But again, our current system actually seems to work against the kind of SMEs which are the real wealth generators in any society, in favour of the investment bankers (gamblers) or big concerns which may provide a good service or product quite cheaply and provide some jobs too, but have no particular sense of loyalty to the communities within which they operate. This is not necessarily what will happen under all types of capitalism everywhere, as a look outside the contemporary Anglosphere will show.

[ 15. September 2012, 12:17: Message edited by: Albertus ]

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Penny Red apparently wants a general strike in order to force the government to turn Britain into Greece.

Hasn't really thought that one through, has she?

This sums it up, for me. If the government doesn't do something (exactly what is well up for discussion of course) about the fact that it is spending well over £100billion more per year than it brings in, then at some point it will all go pop like it has in Greece. Some commentators like to complain about us apparently being at the mercy of the markets, but the simple reason we're in this position is that we are in significant debt and becoming more so.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
What I find mystifying about this thread is that three of the most theologically conservative posters on the ship seem to be so happy to bow down, or, at the very least acquiesce in the bowing down of others, before the god of the market... Indeed, there is a case for saying that capitalism is a modern fertility cult, the cult of economic, rather than biological, growth, which justifies every excess as the necessary cost of placating this wanton and evil god.

Except ISTM the opposition parties and their supporters go on about economic growth just as much as, if not more than, the government and their supporters. Of course, this is exacerbated at the moment because economic growth is seen as a pain-free (but complete fantasy, IMO) answer to the deficit and debt problems of the UK.

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Good point, but it's not an 'except'- just shows how hegemonic the fertility cult is.

Some interesting stuff on government debt among EU countries- now getting on for a couple of years old- here.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

 - Posted      Profile for George Spigot   Author's homepage   Email George Spigot   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have a lot of respect for Peny Red, As a writer and as a person. She she talks more sense and is more sincere than most politicians.

--------------------
C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

 - Posted      Profile for Welease Woderwick   Email Welease Woderwick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...To reiterate what I've said here before, since 2008, I've had to lay off or otherwise lose 75% of my staff, the remaining staff have had to endure a 20% pay cut and my business partner and me a 50% pay cut...

Whilst I sympathise with all in your position, and I know many folks in the same game as you, you fail to acknowledge that the malaise you face is because of Tory cuts and that recourse to the law is now, in most cases, impossible for all but the wealthy.

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Tories weren't in power in 2008 [Confused] . Plus Gordon Brown is the politician largely responsible for the cuts bein necessary thanks to bailing out the banks when they fucked up with money we no longer had because he'd pissed it up against the wall as Chancellor. Labour have admitted this by accepting they'd have had to make deep cuts in spending too. So these aren't really 'Tory' cuts and we had to make most of our painful decisions in 2008-9, before the coalition got in

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Anyone who didn't vote for either the conservatives or labour

According to Wikipedia, the percentage of the population that voted for those 2 parties was 65.1%.

So, when you said a 'majority' voted for coalition, you were using a damned odd definition of majority.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Carex
Shipmate
# 9643

 - Posted      Profile for Carex   Email Carex   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
One thing that struck me in studying economics was that the extent to which most of the theories were predicated on a specific set of conditions or circumstances, such as the interchangeability of laborers, no one company being large enough by itself to impact the market as a whole, zero inertia, perfect information, and that people always make decisions based on their economic best interest at the exclusion of all else. "Free-market Capitalism" looks great under such assumptions. Often, however, those who are crying so loudly for unfettered competition are at the same time trying go game the system so that the assumed conditions no longer hold, to give themselves a competitive advantage. Once the underlying assumptions no longer apply, the value of any such economic theory is greatly diminished, because the assumed checks and balances don't operate in the same way.


A good friend from University did some fascinating work on why people do NOT necessarily make decisions in their best economic interest, but was told that such a paper had no chance of being published because it was too threatening to the prevailing economic theories. Now, 30 years later, conditions have changed and his son is able to do such research.

Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

 - Posted      Profile for South Coast Kevin   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...Gordon Brown is the politician largely responsible for the cuts bein necessary thanks to bailing out the banks when they fucked up with money we no longer had because he'd pissed it up against the wall as Chancellor...

My italics, and here is a newspaper article (in a generally pro-Labour paper) from last year that puts some numbers on Gordon Brown's financial incontinence. A snippet:
quote:
[G]overnment spending totalled £343bn in 1999-2000, which, if it had just kept pace with inflation, would have reached £438bn by 2009-2010. In reality, spending in that year reached £669bn, an increase, in real terms, of 53 per cent, over a 10- year period in which GDP had grown by less than 17 per cent. When you factor in how much of that GDP increase was the result of unprecedented levels of private debt then the truly unsustainable nature of the public spending becomes vividly apparent.


--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941

 - Posted      Profile for Stejjie   Author's homepage   Email Stejjie   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmmm... according to this site, UK public spending only really took off from 2008 onwards (though it was climbing in fits and starts before then); as a percentage of GDP, the upturn from 2008 onwards is even clearer.

The Guardian's site (from 2010) makes this even clearer - spending under Brown didn't massively increase until 2008 and, for most of Labour's time in office, was lower than it was under, say Thatcher (that well-known lover of public spending).

I'm no economist (nice big bullseye drawn on my chest there...), but to say Labour massively overspent, leaving us with nothing by 2008 doesn't look like the truth according to these figures. It rather looks like Labour increased spending a bit and then suddenly had to ramp it up in 2008. Something happened then, not quite sure what...

--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941

 - Posted      Profile for Stejjie   Author's homepage   Email Stejjie   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
With regards the OP, I'd imagine a general strike is being contemplated because it feels like, even if austerity is necessary, those least able to make the sacrifices are the ones being asked to make the most of them (and yes, I'd include SMEs like yours, Matt Black). Whereas those who can afford to make sacrifices are the ones who seem to be most protected from them.

Hence the cut in income tax for high-rate earners, while the pain is mainly being focussed on the low-paid, disabled, people on benefits (with the utterly false notion that the biggest problem we face is benefit fraud) and even just ordinary people. That's why the TUC is making noises like this.

(Although I actually think that's why it's a bad idea - because people are pissed off anyway and this will be just one more disruption to add to it all. While I fully support the right of workers to go on strike, I don't think this will win unions public support - and that could be a severe blow to their cause).

--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Penny Red apparently wants a general strike in order to force the government to turn Britain into Greece.

No, she's probably thinking more of Iceland.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296

 - Posted      Profile for Jolly Jape   Email Jolly Jape   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
originally posted by Ender's Shadow

No - that is where I would disagree. IMNSHO homo economicus does always do certain things. It is these things that mean that the laws of economics are in effect immutable; the best that you can do is suppress the behaviour in the short term, with a cost in the medium term.


Well, firstly, this is nonsense. If it were true, then the poor in, say, the USA, would always vote for the party that credibly promised them, say, free health care (since they could therefore either to afford healthcare in the first place, or else free up the money currently spent for other purposes). But we know that the poor often do vote for things which militate against the chance of increasing prosperity. US society, being at one extreme of the spectrum, points this out most obviously, but it is true on this side of the pond also (remember "Sierra Man?". I think that, for most people, economic advantage is one of the least potent motivators. I know it to be so for myself, and would be most surprised if you were much different.

But, moving back to my initial post, aren't you in the least concerned that you are placing a faith in the immutability of market economics which belongs properly only to God? I wouldn't have read you as a Randian.

By the way, if you really want to punt for an economic system that really works, the record of European social democracy since WWII must take some beating. After all, it raised Germany from post war year zero to one of the great economic powerhouses of the world in half a generation. Plenty of investment, but driven by communitarian and cooperative impulses, not by capitalism per se.

--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
originally posted by Ender's Shadow

No - that is where I would disagree. IMNSHO homo economicus does always do certain things. It is these things that mean that the laws of economics are in effect immutable; the best that you can do is suppress the behaviour in the short term, with a cost in the medium term.


Well, firstly, this is nonsense. If it were true, then the poor in, say, the USA, would always vote for the party that credibly promised them, say, free health care (since they could therefore either to afford healthcare in the first place, or else free up the money currently spent for other purposes).
The claim of mainstream economics is that supply and demand curves are a sufficiently good fit to actual behaviour that it makes sense to assume them for the purposes of constructing economic theory. The fact that in some circumstances the model falls down doesn't disprove it as being generally accurate. My computer does unexplained things every so often; I don't therefore assume that it's not going to be generally useable for what I want. Yet such is the logic of those who want us to ignore economic theory in the cause of 'social justice'; unfortunately economic reality will come back to bite you, and it is irrational populism to pretend otherwise.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296

 - Posted      Profile for Jolly Jape   Email Jolly Jape   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There you go again. as Ronnie used to say. I could understand you position coming from a materialist, but not from a Christian. There are plenty of things that might be regarded as "working" from a purely utilitarian POV, but which are nevertheless illicit when viewed in the light of the Gospel. By this sort of argument, much of Jesus' teaching could be written off in the same way that you dismissed ideas of social justice. Love your enemies, pah, sentimental nonsense. Turn the other cheek, hopelessly naive. So if all these things can be relativised out of consideration without a murmur of dissent from you, what value do we place on your views on those awful liberals whom you seem to regard with such disdain.

--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296

 - Posted      Profile for Jolly Jape   Email Jolly Jape   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually, of course, I do not regard capitalism as a model that works, but have conceded the point in order to show that, even working as if that assumption were true, things other than utilitarian effectiveness need to be considered.

--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

 - Posted      Profile for Jay-Emm     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Albertus:
[qb]...
Let us start with the simple concept of the demand curve. This claims that the demand for a product is a function of the price. This is inevitable; for different people a given product has a different value; therefore if the price is greater, for some people it makes sense not to buy it; it's not worth it to them.

Moving on to the supply curve: all that states is the supply is also a function of the price: again if I am a manufacturer of X, I will be willing to make more of an effort to produce X if the price I'm being offered is higher.


Hang on a second, even GCSE economics says that's wrong. Heck you should have learnt better than that in primary school (or when you read the article).

You need a massive ...all other things being equal. and there are well known situations where we don't see the nice linear graph* it doesn't even necessarily have a permanently negative gradient, iProducts might be a (trivial) example.

When talking about macro-economics that all else being equal is gone from the window and from crap premises, crap follows.

*it would be almost certainly be wonderful for short fluctuations when situation not at equilibrium.

[ 15. September 2012, 17:24: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272

 - Posted      Profile for Ender's Shadow   Email Ender's Shadow   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
There you go again. as Ronnie used to say. I could understand you position coming from a materialist, but not from a Christian. There are plenty of things that might be regarded as "working" from a purely utilitarian POV, but which are nevertheless illicit when viewed in the light of the Gospel. By this sort of argument, much of Jesus' teaching could be written off in the same way that you dismissed ideas of social justice. Love your enemies, pah, sentimental nonsense. Turn the other cheek, hopelessly naive. So if all these things can be relativised out of consideration without a murmur of dissent from you, what value do we place on your views on those awful liberals whom you seem to regard with such disdain.

Let's try and take this from the top. The objective I think we can all settle on is that we want to see the number of poor in the world reduced. We therefore have to discuss what means will lead to the most people being raised from poverty in the shortest period of time - of course not wanting to endorse things that are immoral. Now some form of capitalism where the primary actors are autonomous from the state has proved to be a very successful method of achieving our primary objective; raising lots of people from poverty. This approach has worked in India and Brazil and most obviously China, where its effectiveness in comparision with the first 40 years of communism is a sad reminder of missed opportunities. Given this history, it is totally irrational to argue that mainstream economics is totally wrong - especially when there is no other working model to point to. You want to reduce poverty? Then enable entrepreneurs to do their stuff. If you give them reason not to bother, or make it harder than it needs to be, then you are grinding the faces of the poor.

--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But just declaring 'there is an alternative because I want there to be' is just... sad.

Ender, saying 'there is an alternative because I want there to be' is how every good thing starts. The reason you can't see it is because you're a myopic, imagination-free, passionless arse of a Tory.

btw, we did supply and demand last week. You made a complete idiot of yourself, remember?

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The objective I think we can all settle on is that we want to see the number of poor in the world reduced.

Bzzt. Thank you for playing. This is exactly what I meant above.

You take a family, a village, a tribe who make absolutely no money at all. They are in abject poverty, earning less than a dollar a day.

You take away their land, their animals, their ability to feed themselves, clothe themselves, destroy their family and tribal bonds, and you ship them off to the city where they can work 16 hours a day making shoes for the west. You pay them a dollar a day.

Look, they're not in poverty any more! Huzzah! A triumph for capitalism!

Fuck off.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941

 - Posted      Profile for Stejjie   Author's homepage   Email Stejjie   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@ES: Brazil, you say? Where the rich 10% were sucking up half the country's wealth, leaving just 0.8% for the poor?

Yeah, I bet the poor are loving it there.

Or how about China? Where the gap between rich and poor is getting close to the warning level set by the UN?

Again, I bet the poor can't believe their great fortune at the rise of capitalism there.

Or India, where the poor are less well-fed than they were 30 years ago?

Free market economics really working for them there.

What about here in the UK? Oh look, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. 30+ years of Thatcherism and economic liberalism has done wonders for us...

(Promise no more links!)

The claim that free market economics is the only way to improve the lot of the poor is nonsense - it's a busted flush. It enriches the rich who, as has already been pointed out here, refuse to invest or take their money offshore where no one can get their hands on it.

Austerity fans keep claiming the left believes in the fantasy of the "magic money tree". That trickle-down economics works at all is a much bigger fairy story than that.

--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109

 - Posted      Profile for the long ranger   Email the long ranger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Workers will eventually create co-operatives and work for themselves. Then capitalist fuckers will realise how little they have when nobody will do their bidding for them.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804

 - Posted      Profile for Ethne Alba     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Tis all theory. Very few people are going to put their paid employment on the line for a principle and certainly not if the TUC suggests it.
It's all well and good pontificating about strikes, no one is nearly angry enough for one yet and we've all got too much to loose.

Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

 - Posted      Profile for Jay-Emm     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
[qb]...China...

You've often says this. But I've only seen the statistics you've posted from 1980 and your explaination.
And at the risk of (rather too nearly literally) playing devil's advocate.

a) This change is actually disturbingly close to the first generation after 1958 (or what you'd expect if Mao was right about cities). Which raises rather nasty questions.

b)
Anything could have happened before. I've found a graph (
no idea of web safety or accuracy (sorry) ) which suggests infant mortality went down from 20% to 10% in the first few years of Mao (although the lack of a civil war might well explain this) then halved again before and after your reforms.

Life expectancy similarly doubles in the 'bad' years then creeps up in your 'good' years, which again you'd expect with the 90% 10% rule. But...

Oh, why didn't that chart come up when I looked last time china&india growth
and oddly inconsistent?
The first looks a pretty smooth exponential, the other has a massive jump in 92.

Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools