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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should RE be expunged from the EBac?
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has a paper on this but I have to go out soon so haven't time to locate. Meanwhile, St. George comp in Bristol, taken over by Ray Priest and turned into an academy purged one tenth of its pupils on a single day, if I remember it correctly.
Too much of what you say consists of hearsay and incorrect, half-memories. You really do need to give some evidence. There may be examples of academies 'purging' or being highly selective but I don't believe these are widespread practices.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why do I need to back up something so obvious? If you take the best kids out of the state system, you leave the state with sink schools.
I'm not talking about church schools in the private sector, I'm talking about church schools in the state system - including LEA 'controlled' schools. They and the academies are part of the state system.
Some C of E schools do indeed have admissions policies which favour a 'better class' of pupil, but others don't. My problem with your posts is that you are making sweeping statements. You don't seem to realise that even among church schools there are huge variations and approaches.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
The 2 C of E schools near me are both part of the state system and operate no special selection process - with the exception of a special unit for children with autism in one of them.
Looking at their ofsted reports they both have a slightly higher percentage of "free school dinners" and "non-English first language" children than the other schools in the area.
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The selection process only comes into play if the church schools are over-subscribed. In our parish the church schools are not over-subscribed and therefore accept everyone who applies. You also don't get parents coming to church in order to get their kids into the school. Which has its advantages and disadvantages.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
The two near us are over-subscribed but they select on the same parameters as the state schools in the area (i.e. distance, order of preference specified and siblings).
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why do I need to back up something so obvious? If you take the best kids out of the state system, you leave the state with sink schools.
I'm not talking about church schools in the private sector, I'm talking about church schools in the state system - including LEA 'controlled' schools. They and the academies are part of the state system.
Some C of E schools do indeed have admissions policies which favour a 'better class' of pupil, but others don't. My problem with your posts is that you are making sweeping statements. You don't seem to realise that even among church schools there are huge variations and approaches.
The state FUNDS VA and VC schools but it thereby subsidises parents who don't want their kids to mix with 'the riff raff' - in secondary.
In know that primary is different.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
leo, you're making sweeping generalisations again. The local secondary school here is a VA school and it's the school that people try not to send their children to - the church attendance requirement is not for that school but a Jewish foundation school.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
There area *lot* of schools in the situation that Leo mentions though. Certainly in the borough I was in on the edge of London to get into the C of E primary you had to go to church at least 3 out of 4 sundays to be in the first bracket. I went to a church a little way away and I wasn't ever sure if I was still counted. The secondary was similar. In both cases they were much much much better schools than a lot of the others on offer.
Where I live now the primary C of E takes on church attendance and distance and we are too far (its actually too far away for me to go to) but its the best in the area and parents do go to church to get their children in.
Secondarywise the only schools I'd be "happy" my child going to locally are the grammar school and the C of E school. I will be keeping my church attendance up ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Association of Teachers and Lecturers has a paper on this but I have to go out soon so haven't time to locate. Meanwhile, St. George comp in Bristol, taken over by Ray Priest and turned into an academy purged one tenth of its pupils on a single day, if I remember it correctly.
Too much of what you say consists of hearsay and incorrect, half-memories. You really do need to give some evidence. There may be examples of academies 'purging' or being highly selective but I don't believe these are widespread practices.
So consider this (thoughn this thread is about the inadequacy of the EBac): quote:
According to the latest figures, academies expel 5.5 pupils in every thousand, compared to 2.4 in other secondaries in England.
says this. and this: quote:
"Our range of concerns about academies is huge," she said. "But they remain secretive societies, exempt from the Freedom of Information Act but given the right to exclude children willy-nilly. "Is it right that academies that permanently exclude still pick up the same level of funding from Government but the local authority has to foot the bill for the excluded to be educated elsewhere?"
quote:
One academy recently excluded 11 pupils in one go following a serious breakdown in discipline.
A study by the Institute of Education, part of the University of London, also warned that academies were taking fewer poor pupils as they are gradually taken over by those from middle-class families.
The proportion of poor pupils at academies eligible for free meals dropped from 45 per cent in 2003 to 29 per cent in 2008.
Researchers also suggested schools were excluding pupils in an attempt to boost results.
At Southampton's Oasis Academy Mayfield 11 pupils were recently expelled for bad behaviour. The Harris academy in Peckham, South London, temporarily excluded the equivalent of 28 per cent of its pupils in one 12-month period two years ago and the West London Academy in Ealing expelled 17.
here.
quote:
Academies expelled pupils at twice the rate of other secondary schools last year, official figures have revealed. There were also 3,990 fixed period exclusions - which may involve the same youngster more than once. Those temporary suspensions were 16% of the school population, compared with 10% in other secondary schools.
here.
And, for more detail: quote:
The practice has helped academies to "massage" their exam results at the expense of neighbouring schools - which have to take in the excluded pupils, teachers' leaders claim. At the West London academy in Ealing, 22 pupils were excluded in 2004-05, nearly 2 per cent of the school's pupils, compared to just under 0.5 per cent in the rest of the authority.
How academies expel more pupils
West London, Ealing
Permanent exclusions: 22
percentage of pupils: 1.95
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.49
Capital City, Brent
Permanent exclusions: 11
Percentage of pupils: 1.21
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.49
Djanogly City, Nottingham
Permanent exclusions: 11
Percentage of pupils: 0.70
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.42
Northampton, Northamptonshire
Permanent exclusions: 9
Percentage of pupils: 0.72
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.25
King's, Middlesbrough
Permanent exclusions: 7
Percentage of pupils: 0.67
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.18
Business Academy, Bexley
Permanent exclusions: 7
Percentage of pupils: 0.51
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.26
Unity City, Middlesbrough
Permanent exclusions: 6
Percentage of pupils: 0.53
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.18
Stockley, Hillingdon
Permanent exclusions: 4
Percentage of pupils: 0.68
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.31
City, Bristol
Permanent exclusions: 4
Percentage of pupils: 0.37
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.24
City of London, Southwark
Permanent exclusions: 3
Percentage of pupils: 0.83
Percentage of pupils excluded in equivalent LEA schools: 0.27
here.
quote:
NEARLY a sixth of all Liverpool children expelled from school last year were academy pupils. Council figures show the Academy of St Francis of Assisi, in Kensington, booted out three pupils last year. North Liverpool Academy, Anfield, permanently excluded eight youngsters. It was better news for the city’s schools, where expulsions have remained below 60 for two years and more than halved since 2003. And today education chiefs and head teachers expressed fears academies were taking the “easy option” to improve their standing and results knowing expelled pupils will be rehoused at council-run schools and referral centres.
here.
For the adverse effect of academies on LA schools, quote:
Academies that expel large numbers of disruptive pupils are having a potentially bad impact on neighbouring schools, according to a review of the government's flagship programme in England. The Institute of Education's findings '''
here.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It is hard to see how excluding such a small percentage of children has a direct effect on exam results - unless it is because those few children have a very detrimental effect on the rest of the class.
In which case...
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
[QUOTE] the academies are part of the state system.
No they are not. The whole point of academies is that they are not run by the LA
It's a pretty strange definition of the State that excludes the Department of Education. Academies are indeed not run by LEAs but they are run by central government. Therefore, they are 'state schools'.
With reference to your post about exclusions, the percentages are so small as to make your earlier talk about 'purges' absolutely nonsensical. It strikes me that an alternative explanation in the slight disparities between Academies and LEA schools is a tougher attitude towards discipline and disruption on the part of academies.
[ 01. September 2011, 23:42: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I used 'state' as a shorthand for LA. LAs are democratically accountable, academies are not.
In case you hadn't noticed governments are democratically accountable in the same way as Local Authorities.
In any case, Academies in practice are accountable in just the same way as any other school through their governing bodies, and through their results. Furthermore, I have found as a parent governor that they are far more financially accountable to the taxpayer than are LEA schools.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
LAs are nearer the ground and people can talk to their councillors.
Academy governors don't have to consult their teaching staff and can change their pay and conditions.
Bristol City Council reckons that academies have taken about £9 million out of the budget that is supposed to be for all children, for schools run by the council we elected.
My union, ATL, says: quote:
Martin Freedman added: “Academies are unaccountable to local communities. The report shows little evidence they collaborate with neighbouring schools, they do not have a timetable for improved results, and the DCSF has admitted in the past academies have been able to award large contracts to their own sponsors.
Academies are funded by the public purse but will normally want to please their sponsors and their businesses rather than the people who live in the area.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
LAs are nearer the ground and people can talk to their councillors.
They are not as near to the ground as you imagine. Our LEA is over an hour away from us and always felt incredibly distant. And people can talk to their MPs, they often find it easier because there are regular surgeries. I know who my MP is but I'm not sure who my councillors are?
quote:
Academy governors don't have to consult their teaching staff and can change their pay and conditions.
That is simply not true. Existing staff of a converting academy are transferred with their pay and conditions intact. If there are any future changes to pay and conditions there is still a statutory obligation to consult with staff and their representatives.
quote:
Bristol City Council reckons that academies have taken about £9 million out of the budget that is supposed to be for all children, for schools run by the council we elected.
Explain how this can be so given that academies are funded on a per pupil basis according to the same funding formulas as before?
quote:
Academies are funded by the public purse but will normally want to please their sponsors and their businesses rather than the people who live in the area.
Most of the good/outstanding schools now converting to academy status don't have sponsors. Academies had to have sponsors in the earlier wave of conversions under New Labour. Academies have to comply with company and charity law.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I know who my MP is but I'm not sure who my councillors are?
Yes, but you would know who they were if it was important to you. Its hardly difficult to find out.
Unlike your MP, your local councillors are almost certainly actually local to you. Its a long time since we had any who didn't live within a short walk of where I do. (OK, so does our MP... but its less likely)
And the councillors probably don't spend half the year in Westmnister. Not really a problem if you live in Inner London, but I imagine it could be one in Deepest Devon.
And unlike the MPs they might well actually have time to talk to you, and they probably do know the local schools. Some of them will probably have been to them themselves or their own kids will have.
There is something to be said for having your public services and public property managed by people you might meet in the street or the pub or the supermarket checkout queue.
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Academies have to comply with company and charity law.
Everybody is supposed to comply with the law. I'd rather our schools - and other local institutions - went a bit further than that and actually did the things we want them to do. Where "we" is the people who live here and use those services, not some central government ministry miles away in Westminster.
OK, in my case its only about 6 miles away - but you know aht I mean. They still have interests and agendas that are different from people living in, well, just about anywhere else.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
LAs are nearer the ground and people can talk to their councillors.
They are not as near to the ground as you imagine. Our LEA is over an hour away from us and always felt incredibly distant. And people can talk to their MPs, they often find it easier because there are regular surgeries. I know who my MP is but I'm not sure who my councillors are?
quote:
Bristol City Council reckons that academies have taken about £9 million out of the budget that is supposed to be for all children, for schools run by the council we elected.
Explain how this can be so given that academies are funded on a per pupil basis according to the same funding formulas as before?
I meet my two (LibDem) councillors every six weeks as I am one of the spokespeople for my neighbourhood association. I also used to meet the leader of the Tories weekly at church before he 'poped'.
Re-formulas, for every pupil's funding taken out of LA coffers, there is less money available for contingencies and LA advisors and other services. Since LAs have to work with less money, there is less give and take over special needs, PRUs etc.
Going back to RE - you say that parliament is democratically accountable and, thus, so are academies. Well, nowhere in the Tory of LibDem manfifestos was there any mention of removing a child's entitlement to RE. Yet academies and free schools do not have to teach RE and, if they do, they are not answerable to the democratically elected Standing Advisory Council on RE (made up of councillors, representatives from the faith communities and of teachers. So they are undemocratic.
The EBAC was also not in any manifesto - nobody voted for a government which was going to kill of RE while promoting Biblical Hebrew and Ancient Greek (the latter two being in the EBAC, the former not).
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Academy governors don't have to consult their teaching staff and can change their pay and conditions.
That is simply not true. Existing staff of a converting academy are transferred with their pay and conditions intact. If there are any future changes to pay and conditions there is still a statutory obligation to consult with staff and their representatives.
Under TUPE, staff transferring to an academy will continue their current conditions of service. However, TUPE has been known to last for ONE DAY. After that, staff can be made to work longer hours and on Saturdays – the old 195 days / 1265 directed time and STPCD disappear – and some academies offer less maternity leave than LA schools because they are not bound by the Burgundy Book.
New teachers often have less sickness entitlement as their service in LA schools is often not taken into account.
Governors do not have to ask teachers or parents for their opinions about academy status.
Schools with an Ofsted judgement that is less than ‘outstanding’ need to have an external sponsor.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There is something to be said for having your public services and public property managed by people you might meet in the street or the pub or the supermarket checkout queue.
That is so true. Which is why academies are so attractive - schools run by staff and parents locally.
quote:
Everybody is supposed to comply with the law. I'd rather our schools - and other local institutions - went a bit further than that and actually did the things we want them to do. Where "we" is the people who live here and use those services, not some central government ministry miles away in Westminster.
Or a Local Authority 60 miles away.
But with our local academy we now have a school which is run by people who actually use the service.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Under TUPE, staff transferring to an academy will continue their current conditions of service. However, TUPE has been known to last for ONE DAY. After that, staff can be made to work longer hours and on Saturdays – the old 195 days / 1265 directed time and STPCD disappear – and some academies offer less maternity leave than LA schools because they are not bound by the Burgundy Book.
New teachers often have less sickness entitlement as their service in LA schools is often not taken into account.
Probably about time to remove some Spanish practices from education. Nevertheless in our local academy we haven't changed teachers pay and conditions and we're not going to. We certainly couldn't do it without consultation.
quote:
Governors do not have to ask teachers or parents for their opinions about academy status.
An untruth. We statutorily undertook an extensive consultation with the LA, Unions, staff and parents before we became an Academy. We took this very seriously and travelled 60 miles to meet with Union representatives as they had no time to come to the school and meet the governors alongside the staff they represent.
Interestingly enough the Union reps were not so doctrinaire as their official statements indicate. They were interested in our conversion particularly when we told them we were planning to employ an extra teacher in a new classroom. Their interest could have been influenced by the fact that most of their meetings that day were to do with representing teachers who were facing redundancy.
quote:
Schools with an Ofsted judgement that is less than ‘outstanding’ need to have an external sponsor.
Another untrue statement. Schools which are 'good, with outstanding features' can convert to academy status without an external sponsor.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
You assertion of untruths flies in the face of the documentation and the practice in many places. If I am mistaken, and you are right, I'd like some evidence from you.
You're the one making incorrect assertions. I'm merely putting you right. I've just been through an academy conversion of a 'good school with outstanding features'. We undertook a consultation process and a TUPE transfer. I don't see how TUPE arrangements could only last one day because a consultation is required before changing pay and conditions. If you are in any doubt about what I am saying from direct experience then by all means consult the Department of Education website.
quote:
Meanwhile, remember that this thread is about Religious Education.
I'm more than happy to keep addressing the points you are making about academies unless a host directs me otherwise.
In an earlier post about the funding formula you stated:
quote:
Re-formulas, for every pupil's funding taken out of LA coffers, there is less money available for contingencies and LA advisors and other services. Since LAs have to work with less money, there is less give and take over special needs, PRUs etc.
You and I are on different planets. To my mind there is more money for a child's education if we have less LA advisers and a cut back in other services.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Anecdotal evidence about one academy won't do. I have been a trade union rep. for about 30 years and have been to endless meetings to listen to the woes of staff in academies.
Meanwhile, this thread is about RE - my original mention of academies was to point out that they are not obliged to teach it, which robs children of their entitlement.
As for advisors, without them, teachers, especially non-specialists in primary schools, are limited to their own knowledge, gleaned from a mere half day during ITT which was devoted to RE.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Anecdotal evidence about one academy won't do. I have been a trade union rep. for about 30 years and have been to endless meetings to listen to the woes of staff in academies.
So my direct experience this year of an academy conversion under the 2010 Academies Act is merely anecdotal evidence, while your experience as a trade union rep is not. It looks to me that your experience is past its sell-by-date. You claim that only 'outstanding' schools can convert and you are wrong. You claim that TUPE arrangements can be changed without consultation and you are wrong. You claim that schools can convert to academy status without undergoing consultation and you are wrong. I've pointed you to a very easy to navigate DfE FAQ page. Why don't you go and check it out.
quote:
Meanwhile, this thread is about RE - my original mention of academies ...
If I'm out of order responding to your factual errors about academies then I'm sure a host will let me know.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is interesting that Spawn has been keen to sing the praises of academies while not answering my questions about academies not offering RE or collective worship.
It is more interesting to me that you gloss over your errors.
To attempt to address your question, I have come across enough LA schools which ignore the requirement for collective worship and treat RE as a Cinderella subject to be fairly relaxed about academies setting their own priorities in this area. My daughter's community school never has a whole school assembly, and her year group gatherings don't seem to have anything that can be described as religious content - though I know that any trendy cause or campaign ticks the 'Christianity' box as far as you are concerned.
I don't know whether academies are neglecting RE and collective worship. It doesn't follow that just because they don't have to include RE and collective worship that they are not doing so. The primary academy I am involved with still follows the curriculum. I suspect that the church academies are probably doing a pretty good job. In short, I believe that all schools should make an effort to include RE in the curriculum and make imaginative choices for school worship. Yet in practice schools are making a variety of choices and should have a great deal more freedom than they do at present.
Not sure that's a very good answer. For once, I'm sitting on the fence.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
any trendy cause or campaign ticks the 'Christianity' box as far as you are concerned.
Climate change?
Or should 'worship' not have any relevance to the world that God made and loves?
Well if it was an assembly about caring and valuing the world that God made and loves, rather than infecting children with pessimism, catastrophism and anxiety then I'm all for it.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Glad to hear it. Pessimism achieves nothing. Because assemblies have to be 'broadly Christian', it should always, as is Christianity, be characterised by hope. The fall is trumped by the incarnation; the creation awaits the new creation etc.
We agree on something. Let's quit while we're ahead.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
From the Press Association - PM has ‘open mind’ on RE in EBacc — 6.9.11 quote:
David Cameron has left the door open to adding religious education to the Government’s new flagship English Baccalaureate
In a question and answer session at the Free School Norwich, Mr Cameron was asked whether RE should be included in the Baccalaureate.
He replied: “There’s been a concerted write-in campaign to Members of Parliament from churches, charities and others suggesting this. I don’t have a closed mind on this, and I’m sure Education Secretary Michael Gove never has a closed mind.
“The balance here is to have something in the EBacc that’s this set of subjects that colleges really want to know about and that employers are enthusiastic about, to have a sort of quality benchmark going through the system.” He added: “I think we can keep an open mind, but it’s right to start with a pretty strict list of subjects that both colleges and employers say ‘those are the absolutely essential ones I want to know about’.”
Andrew Jones in the Guardian quote:
Today an estimated 56% of the world’s population believe in an Abrahamic god and another 21% follow another of the world’s major religions, which suggests we still have a duty to educate children about humanity’s beliefs. As we live in a world where politics, culture and religion are often fused together. and even those societies that separate church and state often have God embedded in their cultural politics, would it not be a shame if future generations of British children had little serious interest as to what these beliefs are. Like history and geography, RE is a humanities subject that tells us a lot about the world and its inhabitants at a time of increased globalisation and interdependence...
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Simon Schwama, the Government's History tsar, was interviewed by a student from Cambridge about whether he thought that history was so important that it should be in the EBacc while RE was excluded. He said that RE was vital and that there's no way kids can understand history without it.
[ 24. September 2011, 15:25: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Perhaps, as in days of yore, it will need to be chained?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Michael Gove is going to give every school a single copy of the KJV.
Michael Gove is going to give every school a single copy of the KJV. AND he has written a preface to it. Who does he think he is? John Prescott joked, ‘Hello @god Just wondered if you were happy with Michael Gove writing a foreward to your book?’
Gove said, ""It's a thing of beauty, and it's also an incredibly important historical artefact. It has helped shape and define the English language and is one of the keystones of our shared culture. And it is a work that has had international significance." so why has he cut Religious education, thereby denying kids knowledge of this book?
A vicar wrote to the Guardian to say, "What better way could there be to consign the living word to oblivion than to bury it in Jacobean-speak?"
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I feel that the omission of RE from EBac is a philistine move of the worst kind and it shows Gove misunderstands it's importance. I refer you to a quote from Hansard (October 2011) and I have written to my own MP Nick Gibb who is a Schools Minister.
Hansard quote below.
Saul the Apostle
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What assessment he has made of the potential effect on student choices of the English baccalaureate. [74423]
The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): A survey of nearly 700 schools indicates that the English baccalaureate is having an immediate impact on subject choices. The numbers of students electing to study modern foreign languages, geography, history, physics, chemistry and biology are all up.
Tony Baldry: Is my right hon. Friend aware that secondary schools report a significant decline in the number of students opting to study religious studies? The reason given is that it is not included in the E-bac. This year, will he at least give thought to whether, in the humanities, there could be a choice of two out of three subjects—geography, history and religious studies? If religious studies is not included in the E-bac, it will be increasingly marginalised.
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I feel that the omission of RE from EBac is a philistine move of the worst kind and it shows Gove misunderstands it's importance. I refer you to a quote from Hansard (October 2011) and I have written to my own MP Nick Gibb who is a Schools Minister.
You have an advantage in the Gibb is your own MP. In any correspondence I have had with him, he merely parrots Gove's position.
Glad you took the trouble to write.
This battle has been lost but the war isn't yet over!
[ 19. December 2011, 15:41: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A vicar wrote to the Guardian to say, "What better way could there be to consign the living word to oblivion than to bury it in Jacobean-speak?"
I'm afraid I don't understand this point (entirely my fault, I'm sure). Could you explain it?
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'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.
Posts: 61 | From: Between the idea/ And the reality/ Between the motion/ And the act | Registered: Dec 2011
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Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Bible is supposed to be the living word of God. To dress it up in fancy olde English
Surely the Authorized Version isn't 'dressed up in fancy olde English'. It was written in the English of its time, which is modern English. The last point is of crucial importance: the English of the AV is only very slightly different from that of spoken and written today, and easily comprehensible to anyone with even a basic command of English. The same is not really true of the English Bible of Tyndale, or of Luther's German Bible.
quote:
so that kids cannot understand it means that they will assign it, and Christianity as a whole, to a quaint relic of the past which has nothing to do with their lives today.
Do you have any hard evidence for this rather alarming assertion. I personally have never met anyone who has ever had the slightest difficulty with understanding Jacobean English (and I like to think that I have a rather diverse set of friends, not all of them native English speakers). The only reference I can think of is from 'Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy', where a young boy in the prep school where Jim Prideaux teachers struggles to pronounce the word 'shew'.
If you'll forgive me, your assertion smacks more of an élite conception of what the illiterate masses know than it does of actual experience with these masses.
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that one of the kids on last week's episode of 'Glee' read from the Gospel of Luke, according to the Authorized Version (or the KJV, as Americans are wont to call it). So, we can add Lima, Ohio, to the places where the yoof know their thees and thous. Bristol must be a very strange place, if what you say is true.
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'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.
Posts: 61 | From: Between the idea/ And the reality/ Between the motion/ And the act | Registered: Dec 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Bible is supposed to be the living word of God. To dress it up in fancy olde English
Surely the Authorized Version isn't 'dressed up in fancy olde English'. It was written in the English of its time, which is modern English.
No it wasn't - much of its language was quaint by the standards of its day because it used lots from older translations like Tyndale's, Wycliffe's etc.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
quote:
so that kids cannot understand it means that they will assign it, and Christianity as a whole, to a quaint relic of the past which has nothing to do with their lives today.
Do you have any hard evidence for this rather alarming assertion.
Yes, my 30+ years teaching Religious Education (Secondary, Grammar School for 2st 4, comprehensive the rest). Only the Good News Bible (which I personally loathe) could be used if 3/4 of the lesson wasn't to be sidetracked into explaining old words.
Also 20 years working in the university church here - I always encouraged the use of the KJV to match the language of BCP Evensong until a postgrad English Literature student asked me to explain much of the lessons on a particular day.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also 20 years working in the university church here - I always encouraged the use of the KJV to match the language of BCP Evensong until a postgrad English Literature student asked me to explain much of the lessons on a particular day.
I spend a lot of time with undergraduates, and, if that is true, it's utterly atypical. Certainly, the undergraduates at King's College, Cambridge don't seem phased by the Authorized Version, nor do the choristers for that matter.
Bristol must be very unusual place indeed.
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'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.
Posts: 61 | From: Between the idea/ And the reality/ Between the motion/ And the act | Registered: Dec 2011
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Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I haven't spent all my career in Bristol.
Its uni is a Russell Group uni. but probably has less ex-public schoolkids than Cambridge.
Oh, please. We're talking about King's College, that well known bastion of Marxism, [url= http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/King%27s_College,_Cambridge#Student_Statistics]where over 3/4s of the students come from state schools[/url]
You'll have to find another reason to explain the appalling ignorance of Bristol students. Well, actually, you don't, as you've only cited the case of one student, a case that could be, and indeed almost certainly is, very atypical. For some reason, though, you seem to want to portray it as typical.
[ 20. December 2011, 19:30: Message edited by: Right-Believing Queen ]
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'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.
Posts: 61 | From: Between the idea/ And the reality/ Between the motion/ And the act | Registered: Dec 2011
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I must admit I am surprised at the omission of RE from Ebac. After all if taught correctly RE can be a vital part of a persons generic and specific education. A lively and demanding subject on all sorts of levels.
The current Tory party is much more diverse under Cameron and maybe Gove and his pals felt that the mix they chose was the right one, misguided IMHO. I shall be interested to receive the reply to my letter from Schools Minister Nick Gibb who is my local MP.
I was reminded of the only Duke of Wellington quote I know (he who defeated Napoleon at Waterloo and he said:
''Educate men without religion and you make of them but clever devils.''
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I gather it's quite common for prospective Humanities students to be warned off Bristol becaue they give (allegedly) place more emphasis on Science courses. I have no idea if this is true, but it might explain why the more savvy students choose other Universities. Certainly people with active enquiring minds reading English Literature should not have too much trouble interpreting the KJV - after all it's much more intelligible than Chaucer.
Regarding the teaching of RE as a compulsory subject, I'm surprised it was brought in, in the first place, up to age 16 - but then to drop it, having brought it in, seems complete nonsense. I guess that is one of the weaknesses of a constantly changing government.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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