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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Loss of the Religious Life
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I saw one example recently: the international website of the Order of Preachers (Dominicans) highlights the steady increase in the number of vocations they are experiencing.
They do have an outstanding prior in their Cambridge house whom I beleive is in charge of the English novitiate. His tutor at Oxford for his DPhil was Rowan Williams.
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sebhyatt
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
What links does Pusey have? Ascot Priory doesn't count now that Mother Cecilia has died!
I must be out of date, as I was thinking of Ascot.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The days when monks and nuns were trotted out as exotic extras on the set of Anglo-Catholic Congresses are long gone, as is the suspicion of the religious life on the part of all but an equally loony protestant fringe. Taizé and Iona (admittedly not a religious community in the traditional sense) have seen to that. The main problem is a lack of awareness of Anglican religious among many laity and parishes. Parish priests and vocations advisers should do more to publicise them.
I agree about the lack of awareness. I think many - maybe most - Evangelical Anglicans are unaware than there is any such thing as an Anglican monk or nun. I certainly remember a curate at a large, by-no-means-extreme Evangelical church saying in his sermon:
"I was talking to a nun the other day - did you know, she was in the Church of England! I didn't know you could be in the Church of England and a nun, but there you go!"
Probe a bit deeper, and although there is little overt hostility, you will very often encounter considerable resistance to the whole idea of monastic life. Say one is having a Bible study and the question of "how can we really, just dedicate our whole lives to God" (good Evo question) comes up.
Try saying "Well, how about becoming a monk? Have you ever thought of that?"
Generally you will get an objection along the following lines - although nowadays, couched much more politely.
- "This is self-indulgent, really they ought to be out serving God in the world"
- "This is unnatural, people who want to do this must be weird"
- "This is a typical Catholic "salvation by works" thing, they think that by being more "religious" they are earning Brownie points with God" (The phrase "religious life" does not help here)
- "I went to a school run by monks/nuns and I had a really bad time, they were really unpleasant"
Now obviously it is possible to argue against all of these objections. But I do think that these inarticulated feelings are still floating around a lot. In conservative circles I think it's mainly residual, handed down from a more fiercely anti-Catholic past. In charismatic circles I think it's mainly because there are lots of new converts who retain the knee-jerk reactions that a non-Christian might have.
So for most Evos, monasticism is not even on the radar, and if it should ever float into view, these bogeys incline us to give a wide berth.
Angloid mentions Iona and Taize - but again I think they're far from universally known and somehow don't fall into the same mental "bracket" as mainstream monasticism. And perhaps some conservatives might regard Iona as suspciously liberal (after all, some conservatives regard Alpha as suspiciously liberal) and Taize as suspiciously Catholic.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Now obviously it is possible to argue against all of these objections. But I do think that these inarticulated feelings are still floating around a lot. In conservative circles I think it's mainly residual, handed down from a more fiercely anti-Catholic past.
Fiercely anti-Catholic past? In my experience, most Evangelical Anglicans are still pretty fiercely anti-Catholic. In my darker moments, I think it's pretty much the defining feature of their self-identification. An exaggerated hostility to the religious life, or rather to the idea of the religious life, is part and parcel of that. I seem to recall that when Fr Wagner built St Bart's, one of the sensationalist rumours that the Evangelicals spread around Brighton was that he was secretly hiding nuns in that big church of his. Attitudes have changed, but not by that much.
In fairness, a certain subspecies of Catholic (particularly in this country) seems to self-define as 'not Protestant'.
[ 13. July 2012, 16:40: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
In a similar (though historic) way, I remember reading about the residents of Birmingham who, when they heard that Cardinal Newman's Oratorians would be living in cells, believed that they would be locked in with bars o the windows!
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ok
Taize and Iona are a small part of something much bigger. Lets me give you a number of examples
That list is in no way complete. I know of others and I am pretty sure I only know a minority of them. Most of these are dispersed communities, most follow a rule of life and most are ecumenical. They function a lot closer to a Third Order than they do to a full monastic order.
Jengie
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I agree about the lack of awareness. I think many - maybe most - Evangelical Anglicans are unaware than there is any such thing as an Anglican monk or nun. I certainly remember a curate at a large, by-no-means-extreme Evangelical church saying in his sermon:
"I was talking to a nun the other day - did you know, she was in the Church of England! I didn't know you could be in the Church of England and a nun, but there you go!"
Oh dear. Really?! You'd have thought an Anglican curate would have learned that there is a monastic tradition in the CoE during their training ...!
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Fiercely anti-Catholic past? In my experience, most Evangelical Anglicans are still pretty fiercely anti-Catholic.
Some, perhaps. Certainly true of many conservative evangelicals. Not so true of open evangelicals.
The boot can be on the other foot. On my first ever visit to a RC Mass, one of the regular worshippers ribbed me very gently for being a Protestant (which was fine) and then told me very sweetly that it must be nice for me to attend a 'real' church (unlike, presumably, my crappy Protestant church!) Hmmmm.
quote:
In my darker moments, I think it's pretty much the defining feature of their self-identification.
Speaking pretty much as a 'cradle evangelical', I would question that. I am not denying the strong anti-Catholic strain in some quarters, but it doesn't define all evangelicals, and even a strong anti-Catholicism is not actually the 'most defining feature' of ultra-conservative evangelicals. (Although it might appear that way in a confrontational situation ...) There is a lot more to the evangelical tradition than just being against stuff.
I could no more be a nun than fly to the moon, and God would have to drag me kicking and screaming into any kind of Christian community, let alone a monastic one, but I have greatly appreciated staying in retreat centres run by religious communities, both RC and Anglican. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
What about those who function daily in community and are not dispersed?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right to give a different arbitary picture on the diversity I have found a a listing of Intentional Communities which say they are Christian
Now all Anglican Religious Orders are Christian Intentional Communities by definition. What I am not sure of is whether all Christian Intentional Communities are religious orders. I tend to look for two things, the intentional living together and the rule. Intentional living together is the mark of these communities and the Rule is the mark of the earlier list, but to have the full charism I tend to feel you need both.
Jengie
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Hmm, though that site doesn't list 'traditional' monastic communities...
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suspect because it lists communities that sign up with it, not those that don't.
Jengie
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Ah I see.
I do wonder whether we will see the likes of Ascot repopulated in the future. It might be a complete fantasy, but I'm sure if a few young(ish) people began living a raditional community life they would find others to join them if they were given suitable 'advertising'.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually it is quite hard to draw the Monastic/Non-Monastic line within Protestantism, we have to deal with things like Fairfield Moravian Settlement, Quakers seem to have done something similar and then there are Deaconess de Reuilly in France which look like a full blown monastic order but belong to Diakonia which includes the Methodist Diaconal Order.
Nothing is ever simple.
Jengie
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Fiercely anti-Catholic past? In my experience, most Evangelical Anglicans are still pretty fiercely anti-Catholic.
quote:
Some, perhaps. Certainly true of many conservative evangelicals. Not so true of open evangelicals.
Quite common among evangelical converts from Catholicism. Probably because they never experienced Catholicism as it is lived today, but absorbed some hell-fire theology at second-hand. But of the evangelicals that I know, most of them value their contacts with (Roman and Anglo-) Catholics and benefit from their insight. The same is true vice-versa.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
I was once on an exchange with Wycliffe Hall (don't ask) and heard an ordinand from there argue that Anglican clergy who give Benediction should be arrested! Unfortunately it was only after I laughed that I realised that not only was he serious, but that the lecturer (the Vice Principal) agreed with him...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
And according to the other thread, Wycliffe Hall is in even more dire straits than most Anglican convents.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Considering they go to church only three times a week whereas another (unnamed) Anglican theological college in Oxford does so three times each day, I'm not surprised.
(tongue very much in cheek)
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I do wonder whether we will see the likes of Ascot repopulated in the future. It might be a complete fantasy, but I'm sure if a few young(ish) people began living a raditional community life they would find others to join them if they were given suitable 'advertising'.
It is probably true that is helps when a few like-minded and like-aged join at the same time -although not all would stay the course. So much depends on WHO ELSE is there I imagine. And numbers breed numbers.
Part of the acceleration of decline in some monasteries and convents has possibly been the fact that due to the very advanced ages of many members, young novices have ended up as care workers.
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sebhyatt
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Yes indeed, numbers breed numbers, and I suspect such a community would need at least six to begin with in order to survive. Even then, I wonder whether Canon or Friar type orders such as SSJE (that is, those active in the community) would be more succesful as they could be more easily accesible to parishes.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
That's how most orders started in the C of E. Especially women's ones: they were doing practical work such as nursing, social work etc which helped them to become accepted. As they settled down several of them realised that they were drawn to a more contemplative way of life.
Conversely, I would suggest that the need today is for more contemplative communities. There are already plenty of people doing the practical stuff. Though as I type I realise that at least under the current government social care is going to depend more and more on volunteers which probably does mean active vocations too.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Originally posted by Boat Boy: quote:
Hmm, but can one really incorporate religious spirituality in one's own life? Yes, there's a roaring trade in prayer books based on the ideas of Francis or Benedict, but I'm not convinced that it's really possible to incorporate the charism if those orders (well, not the contemplative ones) into every-day life outside the cloister.
What sort of Christianity is it that can't be incorporated into one's own life?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
One that takes the dedication of all day, every day.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I suppose a T-shirt would have to say more than:
"I'm just a lay".
"... laity" doesn't quite crack it.
Perhaps:
"Being laity is a perfectly respectable vocation".
"The church needs laity. Just for the money". ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Something like this perhaps?
Certainly a conversation starter.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Well...
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The worst of Evangelicalism, the worst of religious orders and the worst of your "normal" church are much the same. They become inward looking and disconnected from the wider community. Such groups either implode (which is nasty) or fade out due to lack of resources.
There really should be no problem within Evangelicalism about living absolutely for God, there is that requirement on all within the tradition, they may not therefore understand why you need to be in a special community to do that.
Jengie
[ 14. July 2012, 08:36: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Ah I see.
I do wonder whether we will see the likes of Ascot repopulated in the future. It might be a complete fantasy, but I'm sure if a few young(ish) people began living a raditional community life they would find others to join them if they were given suitable 'advertising'.
Are you saying you think somebody else ought to do that? Or is that what you want and feel called to do?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
There really should be no problem within Evangelicalism about living absolutely for God, there is that requirement on all within the tradition, they may not therefore understand why you need to be in a special community to do that.
Jengie
It's a requirement on all Christians, not just evangelicals. I know that some medieval ideas suggested that Religious were living a more 'perfect' life, but nobody suggests that today. It's a different vocation, just as marriage is a different vocation.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Ah I see.
I do wonder whether we will see the likes of Ascot repopulated in the future. It might be a complete fantasy, but I'm sure if a few young(ish) people began living a raditional community life they would find others to join them if they were given suitable 'advertising'.
Are you saying you think somebody else ought to do that? Or is that what you want and feel called to do?
Ah, well now there's a question...
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I am puzzled by the suggestions here that religious communities should advertise to get their numbers up. From my contacts with Mucknell I know that it takes a lot of work from the entire community to support someone as they try their vocation. If many more arrived they would be swamped! (Mucknell is healthy, but small.) It also seems to go against the spirit of the Rule, which has quite a bit to say making admission hard, almost putting people off, rather than wooing them through advertising.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Not necessarily advertising, as such, rather making sure that those considering vocation (of whatever kind) at least know of their existence.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Malling Abbey has no priest among the nuns, so they have a priest for mass. When I was there, mass was lead by a woman priest.
Haggeston Priory has two women priests among its members, and CSJB at Begbroke had one in training when I was last in contact.
I'd have thought the major problem is that celibacy is not thought to be possible nowadays.
As a gay man, I'm totally grateful that for most of its history, the Christian church has not thought marriage is the only possibility and that living in committed same sex communities is equally valid.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I made the last post in response to the comments about women priests without having read the subsequent page of posts.
Dom Gregory Dix's community now attends mass regularly at Salisbury Cathedral with a woman dean and women priests.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I said: quote:
What sort of Christianity is it that can't be incorporated into one's own life?
To which Boat Boy replied: quote:
One that takes the dedication of all day, every day.
Er... precisely? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Oh we can try, but I wouldn't presume to equate my spiritual life with that of, say, a Carthusian.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Oh we can try, but I wouldn't presume to equate my spiritual life with that of, say, a Carthusian.
But it is supposed to be. That is one of the challenges of Protestantism, no more "let them professionals get on with it while we amateurs get by doing very little". We are all called as servants of God and we are all called to do our utmost to be good ones.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Oh we can try, but I wouldn't presume to equate my spiritual life with that of, say, a Carthusian.
But it is supposed to be. That is one of the challenges of Protestantism, no more "let them professionals get on with it while we amateurs get by doing very little". We are all called as servants of God and we are all called to do our utmost to be good ones.
Jengie
But we don't, do we? 'The professionals' simply have more time to devote to the contemplation and praise of God.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
It's true that the monastic life enables one to serve God in a different way which would not be possible outside. But that does not mean that a non-monastic life is therefore second-best.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Oh absolutely, but we were specifically discussing the possibility of incorporating elements of monastic spirituality into everyday life in any meaningful way.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Which is of course why the Jesuits have had such influence on lay spirituality, because it is rigorous without being in the slightest degree monastic. Having said that, some people can quite successfully integrate large elements of monastic spirituality into their everyday lives.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
This is entirely a personal opinion but I think the English Reformation and especially the publication of the Prayer Book made religious orders superfluous. The Prayer Book sought to eliminate the distinction between religious and secular by providing a common Office that was intended for everyone. Added to that there wasn't an Anglican expression of monasticism for ~300 years (~1535-~1835), which contained the "classical" Anglican period.
Fascinating thread but do you really think this jlav12? Have you ever met any monks or nuns, or read any monastic autobiographies? The suggestion that Cranmer's prayer book did or could have made religious life superfluous is preposterous, almost ridiculous.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
Quite; the BCP is a comparatively comprehensive book, but to that extent?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jlav12:
[qb] Added to that there wasn't an Anglican expression of monasticism for ~300 years (~1535-~1835), which contained the "classical" Anglican period.
You forget Little Gidding. Admittedly not a traditional monastery since it included married and family members, but as far as its routine and prayer life went was comparable. And the reason religious orders reappeared in the C of E wasn't just down to medieval romanticism (though it played a part with some, notably Fr Ignatius) but a deeply felt need, clearly not satisfied with the normal round of parish worship.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Joan Rasch
Shipmate
# 49
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Posted
BTW - NY Times has a nice little article on SSJE in Cambridge, MA
/Joan
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* A cyclist on the information bikepath
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
In a sense I think it is highly important that the spirituality of lay people exceeds those of monastics. I want a banker who feels he accounts to God for how his actions affect the poor, I want a doctor who learns compassions from our Lord, I want a crafts person who seeks to do the best they can to glorify God, I want the checkout lad or lass to be ready to serve the Christ in customers, I want the researchers to be humble and seek truth, not being scared to make mistakes and admit it.
There are areas where I believe monastic orders have the edge over non-monastics but those do not easily equate to greater spirituality.
I also believe that living with a community under a rule can be an attractive way to live your life even if that life is very normal.There is something counter-cultural in that, and something that I think makes a space in society which isn't there at present However I am more drawn towards co-housing and intentional communities that traditional monastics in that.
Jengie
[ 15. July 2012, 08:26: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Oh we can try, but I wouldn't presume to equate my spiritual life with that of, say, a Carthusian.
But it is supposed to be. That is one of the challenges of Protestantism, no more "let them professionals get on with it while we amateurs get by doing very little". We are all called as servants of God and we are all called to do our utmost to be good ones.
Jengie
But we don't, do we? 'The professionals' simply have more time to devote to the contemplation and praise of God.
Hollow laugh here...
Frankly, I have more time for prayer, contemplation and the praise of God as a lay person, in full time employment than I ever did in 20 years living in a religious community.
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan Rasch:
BTW - NY Times has a nice little article on SSJE in Cambridge, MA
/Joan
Thank you, Joan Rasch for the link.
I see work like what the SSJE are doing in Cambridge, Mass is increasingly necessary. There is still a great need for religious orders and the monastic life. And in TEC, very few people are willing to live the whole life. It seems there are several groups and lots of individuals who love dressing up in habits and calling themselves after a major religious order but who don't live in community or practice celibacy, both of which are of the essence of monasticism. People want the rewards of the monastic life without the sacrifices.
I do believe they will rise again though, in God's good time.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Oh we can try, but I wouldn't presume to equate my spiritual life with that of, say, a Carthusian.
Having spent time as a Carthusian novice I would suggest that you make a difficult generalisation. The Carthusian life makes it easier to spend ones time in silence, work and prayer but simply creating the form does not imbue it with content. I think that a Carthusian life well lived can help one attune more closely with the Holy Spirit than, say, a truckers life well lived. A Carthusian life badly lived, however is good for neither man nor God. To use a, perhaps unfortunate, analogy its a bit like smoking. The more you smoke the more chance you have of getting cardiac or pulmonary diseases. But you can still get them if you don't smoke and you can dodge them even if you do. So with the religious and the lay life.
Finally the crucial thing is God's plan for you. If He wants you to be married, raise children and drive a truck then you have no business going into the Religious life. The first word of the Rule of St Benedict is listen and that is the important thing. Listen for what God is calling you to do (vocation), hear Him then, and only then, obey Him.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think monastic communities attract people if they have a legitimate, living charism. A real spiritual core always does that. If the core is lost the community folds.
A few hours ago I heard an 80 year old Carmelite preach a sermon at the 75th anniversary of a church in Brisbane. I suspect that church and priory will continue as will the order. The personnel will change but not the raison d'etre.
Likewise, I don't see the monasteries on Mt Athos, which have been there for 1000 years, dying. The ethos is alive.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
StevHep, thank you for that great analogy.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Are you saying you think somebody else ought to do that? Or is that what you want and feel called to do?
Ah, well now there's a question...
I am minded of this passage in 1 Kings 8 (RSV)
17 Now it was in the heart of David my father to build a house for the name of the LORD, the God of Israel.
18 But the LORD said to David my father, 'Whereas it was in your heart to build a house for my name, you did well that it was in your heart;
19 nevertheless you shall not build the house, but your son who shall be born to you shall build the house for my name.'
God may be pleased that we desire to do a special thing in His service but may nonetheless have other plans for us. 19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good 1 Thessalonians 5 (RSV)
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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