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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Loss of the Religious Life
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Invictus_88
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# 15352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think monastic communities attract people if they have a legitimate, living charism. A real spiritual core always does that. If the core is lost the community folds.
A few hours ago I heard an 80 year old Carmelite preach a sermon at the 75th anniversary of a church in Brisbane. I suspect that church and priory will continue as will the order. The personnel will change but not the raison d'etre.
Likewise, I don't see the monasteries on Mt Athos, which have been there for 1000 years, dying. The ethos is alive.
That living spirit is certainly what animates a religious order, inspires them in their devotion, and shines with sufficient light that people can explore them in discerning their vocations.
It might also be part of the success of traditional communities. In keeping alive their deep roots in the Church and in the spirituality of their founders, they maintain an enduring shine and inspire continued vocations, in contrast with those whose roots withered and were instead tilted by the winds of popular culture.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think many people are looking for a deep spirituality which has passed the test of time and resonates within them, Invictus_88.
Sometimes people get an inspired glimpse, as the late Thomas Merton did and then spend their lives attempting to regain it. The glimpse often comes and goes, as his life shows.
I think, at the end, someone who has really lived the life would "know" in a way which might be difficult for outsiders to comprehend.
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Well...
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lilyswinburne
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# 12934
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Posted
As a lay person who has stayed at the SSJE house in Cambridge (before it went up to $100 a night), I would like to point out that their lifestyle is much more comfortable than mine in many areas:
- Lavish non-vegetarian meals
- Fantastic location
- Opportunities for study
- Fine library
- Warm community
- Respect almost tantamout to adulation
- No financial worries
I believe it is the contrast in life styles between lay and clerical (including monastic) that contributed to the Protestant Reformation.
I myself was rather starry-eyed about religious orders until I:
1. visited several
2. heard the news of all the scandals (sexual and otherwise) and coverups
Lily
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lilyswinburne
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# 12934
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Posted
Sorry I forgot to mention that the SSJE also has a paid cook (something I would love to have!).
Lily
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
- Lavish non-vegetarian meals
- Fantastic location
- Opportunities for study
- Fine library
- Warm community
And none of that is in any way incompatible with the vows that the brothers take. Being a monk is about serving God in a certain way as defined by a rule of life. In modern times, this has not usually involved a vow to be miserable all the time.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Indeed - there's nothing to say that monks should deliberately make themselves uncomfortable or, in this age of readily available meat, vegetarian.
Similar accusations are sometimes levelled at the Benedictines of the English Congregation, probably, I suspect, largely because they run public (private, to Americans) schools, but they are holy men living out their vocations in great devotion to God. Yes their food is cooked for them (by the school kitchens I believe) and they have a beautiful houses, but they could not be accused of 'luxury'.
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lilyswinburne
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# 12934
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Posted
The Cambridge house of the SSJE has not been immune to scandal.
I personally have not found much worth emulating or admiring in the middle-class lifestyle of modern religious orders, and agree with JengieJon that lay spiritually should surpass monastic spirituality.
Lily
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
The Cambridge house of the SSJE has not been immune to scandal.
I personally have not found much worth emulating or admiring in the middle-class lifestyle of modern religious orders, and agree with JengieJon that lay spiritually should surpass monastic spirituality.
Then the only advice I can have for you — since you find Western monasticism since the time of Benedict so unappealing — is get thee to the Egyptian desert or else follow the Rule of Saint Columbanus. It will be a lonely life, but it sounds as if that's the way that you would prefer it, given your deprecation of the decadent western monasticism.
The above is obviously meant largely is jest, but if you really do feel a vocation to the austerity of the ascetic life, then I wish you all the best and may God and his Blessed Mother be with you. Even so, I don't think it's particularly Christian to deprecate the vocations of others.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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lilyswinburne
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# 12934
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Posted
I believe the topic for discussion was "The Loss of the Religious Life". What I am pointing out is that, from my research and experience, "Religious Life" in modern times is in many ways more comfortable, and often morally more questionable (in terms of the aforementioned scandals and coverups) than lay life.
This may explain the lack of vocations to "Religious Life". As more information is available about it through the Internet, etc., interest lessens.
The same applies to the decline of the Church of England, and, indeed, of Western Christianity. As more information is available now than in the past, interest lessens.
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Lily, I do think it's a little uncharitable to imply that all religious are some kind of pampered perverts, living luxurious lives of moral outrage.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Much as I am a fan of Steve Bell, his anticlericalism occasionally gets the better of him, and I don't recall +Rowan leading the pro-capitalist forces against Occupy. More the reverse I would have thought. (Though maybe the bearded prelate is supposed to be the Bishop of London, which would make more sense, though still unfair.)
But nowt to do with the Religious life. Some people undoubtedly have a vocation to live with the poor and share the same conditions as the poor; but that's not the essence of being a monk or nun. It is about stability (one of the Benedictine vows); staying faithful to the same place and community and learning to listen to the voice of God. You can't do that if you are distracted by an empty stomach or wondering how to replace your threadbare habit, any more than if you are distracted by over-indulgence and 'worldly temptations'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Hear hear
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
While I would tend to agree with Angloid and Boat Boy on this, it does raise the question:
Why then was it that in previous ages the privation of the body was often seen as an aid to holiness? As far as I can see there have always been comfortable, wealthy orders but there have also been those that lived a very hard life, and saw this as an essential part of their Rule.
Why? But maybe that is another thread.
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Different vocations for different people - some seek God through asceticism and some through contemplation (some, of course, through both).
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Please give the source of your claim that Roman Catholic religious communities are seeing increases in membership.
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Enough for you?
Of course not. You wouldn't take the fact that your neighbor had a baby this year as proof that the world's population is increasing.
--Tom Clune
Let me help.
Just last year the National Catholic Register had a story on the quiet revival among male orders. While overall numbers of male religious are down, new communities are being founded and attracting new vocations: [link].
quote:
Wick sees all of these communities as unique expressions of the Holy Spirit in the Church. “There are so many different charisms,” he said. “We have the older, more established orders, newer communities in the tradition of an older order, and then altogether new orders. There’s something for everyone, but a common thread among the communities doing well is their faithfulness to the magisterium.”
While overall numbers are down, there is a surprising, quiet revival of religious men in the United States, and Abbot Anderson believes “if these young people continue to pray, they will rebuild religious life in America.”
The BBC had a similar report about a growing number of female vocations in the UK among the young last October:[link].
As long ago as 2009 the New York Times already reported on the rise in vocations among traditional orders: New Nuns and Priests Seen Opting for Tradition .
quote:
A new study of Roman Catholic nuns and priests in the United States shows that an aging, predominantly white generation is being succeeded by a smaller group of more racially and ethnically diverse recruits who are attracted to the religious orders that practice traditional prayer rituals and wear habits.
Even before the NY Times story the growth among traditional had been talked about on Catholic sites. If people need more convincing I have more links to share.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Thank you Pancho.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
The benedictine monastery at Notre Dame de Bellaigue in France had so many vocations that they have opened another Abbey at Monschau in Germany. Traditionalist monks are definitely on the increase. See here
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
As have the monks at Barroux. They started in a little ancient church with a couple of monks, then grew so large that they built a whole new abbey in romanesque style on another site and have now founded another priory elsewhere.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
... Betjeman [wrote] a wonderful gem of a poem on this subject
Perhaps too obvious to mention on such a well read site, but the first stanza is presumably a conscious echo of Dover Beach. If so the ending neatly conterpoints the nun's conviction with a wider Victorian loss of faith in the earlier poem.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Boat Boy
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# 13050
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Posted
Yes - do you think Arnold was worried about the loss of faith? I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of the darkness and confusion possible if someone's faith disappears, coupled with his own conviction and confidence in his position in the world.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
... Betjeman [wrote] a wonderful gem of a poem on this subject
Perhaps too obvious to mention on such a well read site, but the first stanza is presumably a conscious echo of Dover Beach. If so the ending neatly conterpoints the nun's conviction with a wider Victorian loss of faith in the earlier poem.
I'd never thought of that. I'll go and compare them. Thank you.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Yes - do you think Arnold was worried about the loss of faith? I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of the darkness and confusion possible if someone's faith disappears, coupled with his own conviction and confidence in his position in the world.
A good point. Though the last stanza has always sounded to me like someone hoping that commitment to a lover might give them some precarious security when faith seems to fail. He calls his lover, "Come to the window, sweet is the night-air!" in the first verse and I assume that the last stanza "Ah, love, let us be true/To one another!" is addressed to the lover.
However this is a diversion from the subject of the thread. My apologies to all. To get back roughly in the right direction by a tortuous link: Dover Beach is the poem Montag the Fireman reads out loud in Fahrenheit 451. What forced him out of the closet was a woman who chose to burn with her books. Her last words are: "Play the man, Master Ridley; we shall this day light such a candle ..." and we're back with Anglicanism/Catholicism and such.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
Boat Boy, Firstly, I don't think Traditional Anglican monastic orders are entirely in decline -the Community of the Resurrection in Mirfield has had several new professions in recent years, all men in their early thirties and forties...
They don't exactly advertise
I think it's true that an order needs to have a vibrant and charismatic spiritual life in order to thrive, but also there is a limit to how many monks you can sensibly have on one site -and they reckon 25ish is the limit and they have 22 right now.
And secondly... have you considered that your early concern for this area of the church's life might indicate a possible vocation?
Why not explore it further - you'd be surprised how active some communities are.
NB: you'd enjoy the incense at Mirfield -but if you want a bit of the best Rosa Mystica you'll have to coincide with a feast of the BVM
[ 19. July 2012, 19:49: Message edited by: Birdseye ]
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Yes - do you think Arnold was worried about the loss of faith? I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of the darkness and confusion possible if someone's faith disappears, coupled with his own conviction and confidence in his position in the world.
To begin with, perhaps. He would have been very conscious of the legacy of his (at the time) more famous father Dr Thomas Arnold of Rugby and Regius Professor of History - a post he held whilst Headmaster of Rugby. HIs sermons were widely read in Victorian England, and many, not least, Stanley Dean of Westminster almost canonised him.
He was the total opposite of Newman. Both men submitted for their Oxford BDs together and stood in the Senior Common Room at Oriel together in total silence.
Latterly, one might assume that the younger Arnold accepted the doubt as inevitable. That is more the theme of the poem, perhaps.
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sebhyatt
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Yes - do you think Arnold was worried about the loss of faith? I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of the darkness and confusion possible if someone's faith disappears, coupled with his own conviction and confidence in his position in the world.
To begin with, perhaps. He would have been very conscious of the legacy of his (at the time) more famous father Dr Thomas Arnold of Rugby and Regius Professor of History - a post he held whilst Headmaster of Rugby. HIs sermons were widely read in Victorian England, and many, not least, Stanley Dean of Westminster almost canonised him.
He was the total opposite of Newman. Both men submitted for their Oxford BDs together and stood in the Senior Common Room at Oriel together in total silence.
Latterly, one might assume that the younger Arnold accepted the doubt as inevitable. That is more the theme of the poem, perhaps.
Yes, Thomas Arnold's 'muscular christianity' would have been in the minority in the Oriel Common Room of the 1840s, indeed I suspect that he would have looked for a Fellowship elsewhere were the Regius Professorship not tied to that particular college. However, I'm not quite sure how Thomas' collegiate disagreements would have influenced the theological opiniosn of his son twenty years later...
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lilyswinburne
Shipmate
# 12934
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Posted
On this topic, has anyone else read "An Unquenchable Thirst" by Mary Johnson? She was a Missionary of Charity for 20 years, then left, and has written a memoir of her time in the order.
I am almost finished with the book, and find it fascinating.
It will not do much for the cause of reviving interest in the religious life.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
It will not do much for the cause of reviving interest in the religious life.
Quite likely. Madame Bovary is unlikely to lead to interest in pursuing marriage.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Yes - do you think Arnold was worried about the loss of faith? I've always understood it as an acknowledgement of the darkness and confusion possible if someone's faith disappears, coupled with his own conviction and confidence in his position in the world.
To begin with, perhaps. He would have been very conscious of the legacy of his (at the time) more famous father Dr Thomas Arnold of Rugby and Regius Professor of History - a post he held whilst Headmaster of Rugby. HIs sermons were widely read in Victorian England, and many, not least, Stanley Dean of Westminster almost canonised him.
He was the total opposite of Newman. Both men submitted for their Oxford BDs together and stood in the Senior Common Room at Oriel together in total silence.
Latterly, one might assume that the younger Arnold accepted the doubt as inevitable. That is more the theme of the poem, perhaps.
Yes, Thomas Arnold's 'muscular christianity' would have been in the minority in the Oriel Common Room of the 1840s, indeed I suspect that he would have looked for a Fellowship elsewhere were the Regius Professorship not tied to that particular college. However, I'm not quite sure how Thomas' collegiate disagreements would have influenced the theological opiniosn of his son twenty years later...
In the sense that we are all creatures of our time, genes and upbringing. Thomas Arnold was almost a household name at a time when his son was not. Dr Arnold was the 'great man' in Victorian England until a little debunked by Lytton Strachey, and somewhat revived again later. This is not a great example, but a little like the Martin Amis's writing which is heavily laced with dealing with his father Kingsley's long shadow.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Birdseye:
Boat Boy, ...
And secondly... have you considered that your early concern for this area of the church's life might indicate a possible vocation?
Why not explore it further - you'd be surprised how active some communities are.
Well, there you are Boat Boy.
He even put in a plug for Mirfield.
Once inside you would be a real expert on the subject.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Well...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In a pomo world the Religious Life is vastly more than the monastic, no matter how attractive that is.
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Love wins
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I wonder if there is a case for an Anglican oratory in the CofE along the lines of St Philip Neri's, but residentary not like OGS. Perhaps a resident community of secular priests, independent yet living in community. It could be all male, female, or mixed, but each priest single of course. Novices would be called to that particular charism and ordained specifically as members of the oratory - like the RC model. In these days of a variety of ministeries - including LOMs - this should not be a problem. I understand that this was under discussion over thirty years ago and that the staff of ACS were at that time a driving force, although it never happened.
I am not necessarily suggesting similar architecture to Brompton.
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sebhyatt
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I am not necessarily suggesting similar architecture to Brompton.
Phew! You had me worried for a moment. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
But now I think of it, what fun that would be!
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sebhyatt
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The Mirfield Fathers nearly ended up with something like a cross between Brompton Oratory and Westminster Cathedral. Thank God for the Depression!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Are Mirfield's premises the ultimate Anglican monastic erection? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Well...
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Or perhaps something like Oxford Fellows living in a huge house combining their salaries so they could be waited on and have good food, seperate studies and bedrooms, but communal dining and a chapel.
The 'celibate' 19thC Fellows must have lived just a little like that.
I'm getting carried away with enthusiasm.
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sebhyatt
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
There was quite a lot of that atmosphere (at least, I guess, never having lived in an Oxford college) about CR until quite recently. Balanced by quite a lot of common-sense Anglican theology and genuine asceticism.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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