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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church in Wales Strategy for Growth
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, Ender's Shadow, you can sustain it for a while, but ultimately you'll need to supplement it (I'm not suggesting they replace it) with something else.
The black-led churches don't JUST sing songs - they are involved with all sorts of community initiatives.
One of the things that hasn't been mentioned so far is the influence of alternatives to church. I once read a fascinating study about religion in Huddersfield. The chapels had been very, very strong from the 18th century through until around 1920 - but from about 1922 the decline was rapid. The study put this down to the emergence of the cinema and other forms of entertainment - prior to that it was all lantern-slides, amateur dramatics and sporting activities either closely or loosely connected with the churches and chapels.
Huddersfield and its surrounding Pennine Valleys are very, very similar to South Wales both culturally and demographically - although more ethnically diverse these days I would suggest.
There was the added element in Huddersfield that the whole town was owned and run by a small coterie of wealthy industrialists. The only 'say' that people had, in comparison to nearby Leeds where there was a more fluid and diverse economy and infrastructure, was which church or chapel to attend.
As things 'loosened up' in terms of the infrastructure, the ability to have a 'say' in how things were done and run, then church and chapel attendance also declined.
Interesting ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
It might be worth thinking for a moment about the parish share/quota whatever.......there seems to be about 3 grades of parishes and which one you're in depends on all sorts of circumstances
The following link gives details of how things are worked out in St.Alban's diocese. Yes I know it's English but I would've thought that the same principles would apply across the border and in most dioceses
How Parish Share is calculated
It seems however you do the sums you're looking for a contribution of £6-£7 per individual - and that's just the parish share - you haven't begun to think about saving money for a rainy day such as building repairs or indeed the charitable work of the church
So enpart's example of a parish share of £10K may seem small but it could still be a significant contribution for the members
Disestablishment has been mentioned - but I think it's not just that that's important but the reason behind it. Many people had turned from the church to the chapel which had the result I think of weakening the Anglican church as far as numbers are concerned so we're not starting from as strong a base as the Church of England. Yes later events have put the chapels in a parlous position to the extent that the Church in Wales is now the largest single denomination - or at least it was - last time I looked the RCs seem to be catching up if they haven't overtaken us - but that doesn't mean to say that the CiW is in a strong position. I have been amused in the past by Welsh bishops taking a stance on devolution saying that the CiW has never looked back, but that was definitely not the view of the Welsh bishops of the 1920s who if anything were terrified of the prospect
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Oh - forgot something. One other thing in the report recommends making Llandaff the archiepiscopal see. That is quite likely to strain charity considerably when the Governing Body meets I would suggest!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
They'll get over it. It's the only sensible option - you can't have the ApB of Wales based in St Asaph or Bangor; even Swansea would be hard work. Monmouth was just about do-able, last time, and Cardiff is by far the easiest now.
What about the recommendation to sell off parsonages and raise cleric's stipends so they can buy them back?
My reactions to this one were:
Why on earth? What good would it do?
Once most vicarages (4-5 beds, 2 bathrooms, 2 reception rooms, study) hit the market, no cleric on roughly £20K will afford them. Clerics will only be able to discern a calling to the area of town where they can afford a house.
No CofE clerics will come to Wales because they won't have saved enough to buy a house.
And raise cleric's stipends? All of them? With what money?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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enpart
Apprentice
# 17272
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Posted
Maybe from an increase in the block grant from the RB using money raised from the sale of all those closed church buildings (?)!
The parish share will be increased across the board - the review presents this as a plus-point for churches because even though there will be an initial raise, it will level off (at some point) and become stable at a fixed amount for a long period.
This is a bit speculative as it presumes that the renewal strategy will work - it's also definitely not a plus-point for those churches who will not be able to meet the initial raise.....bringing their 'financial viability' immediately into question.
I have a box of old letters in the church that were written by the incumbent rector at the time of disestablishment - he was definitely not a happy man!
Posts: 13 | From: west wales | Registered: Aug 2012
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
How much realistically would the CinW expect to be able to make on the sale of redundant buildings? I know the property market is depressed at the moment, but large double-decker town chapels that have been put onto the market here (ideal for subdivision into flats) take years to find buyers. I can't see mediaeval village churches, with their odd shape and damp-prone stonework, being any easier to dispose of.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Below the Landsker ... it's a long time since I heard that expression. Tidy!
Welcome aboard, West Walian friend ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
I was going to say 'diolch', but I've seen spats and hostly interventions before on the use of languages other than English, so I'd better stick to 'Cheers, butt!'.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, I do lapse into Wenglish at times and no-one's told me off. Mind you, I do generally provide an interpretation whenever I do talk tidy now isn't it?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Only recently we had some observations here aboard Ship that the Church in Wales is doing better in rural areas than the non-conformists are ... which must mean that the state of rural non-conformity in Wales must be even more desperate ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I can't speak for rural Wales but I have noticed that in parts of rural Cheshire some village churches are doing quite well with refugees from town and suburban parishes where they've either moved the candles or introduced drum'n'bass ...
From what I see around me, the situation for all of the denominations in this part of rural Wales is similarly dire. One of the mediaeval parish churches in Haverfordwest held its last service this month, a number of Wesleyan Methodist chapels have closed (because they are the first to bite the bullet, I think, not because their rate of decline has been steeper than anyone else's) and I can think of four or five churches and chapels within an hour's walk of my house where the congregations meet in single figures. There are exceptions, and bearing in mind where some of these congregations meet, the percentage of population they reach is perhaps comparable to the more successful town and city churches. It is difficult to see, however, how the denominations can develop a model of ministry to sustain and develop the work, without closures and/or mergers.
I don't have first hand experience of what things are like in the Welsh-speaking churches, but I'm told that it is even more depressing, with some congregations now meeting fortnightly and where attendance of above 20 at a service is considered a revival.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
I was going to say 'diolch', but I've seen spats and hostly interventions before on the use of languages other than English, so I'd better stick to 'Cheers, butt!'.
As long as you give a translation I don't think they mind too much but if you put things only in Welsh you'll probably get called on it......
Besides I thought people below the Landsker didn't speak Welsh......
I know only of two churches in Haverfordwest - St.Mary's and St.Martin's ( the High one) .......don't know if it's one of those - but what's the third one ?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
St Thomas a Becket - at the top of town, near the Green. There is also St. David's Prendergast, on the way up to the hospital, but it has historically been considered a village parish outside the town, so has its own incumbent. The three town parishes have the same ministerial team, I believe.
It's St Thomas a Becket which is closing, by the way.
[ 31. August 2012, 13:32: Message edited by: Below the Lansker ]
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Ok , I know this is a tangent but people unfamiliar with south and west Wales might not be aware of,so perhaps an explanation should be given - Wikipaedia is your friend!
Landsker Line
Also - what the article doesn't mention - is former Scandinavian/Viking influence especially off the south Pembrokeshire coast, eg the islands of Skokholm and Skomer which sound pure Danish to me. Also further east - take Swansea for instance. Nothing to do with swans or the sea but everything to do a Viking adventurer - Svein's 'eye' or harbour hence Swansea. In Welsh it's 'Abertawe' meaning the place where the river Tawe flows into sea
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
St Thomas a Becket - at the top of town, near the Green. There is also St. David's Prendergast, on the way up to the hospital, but it has historically been considered a village parish outside the town, so has its own incumbent. The three town parishes have the same ministerial team, I believe.
It's St Thomas a Becket which is closing, by the way.
Oh - I think I know where it is - thanks
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
Just to add to what I said earlier...
I had a chat after service today to an old gent who occasionally visits our place. He drives about 14 miles into Welsh-speaking North Pembrokeshire to attend services at the Baptist chapel of his youth. They meet fortnightly (about 7 or 8 of them, all beyond their threescore years and ten). He told me today that there are four CinW churches in that area about to fold, two immediately, a further two when the current incumbent reaches retirement age. Unless something drastic happens, we are looking at a situation where entire swathes of the Welsh countryside will soon be left without any Christian witness of whatever description.
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
I'm the Superintendent Minister of the Methodist Church in Pembrokeshire (one of my churches backs on to the Green, and is about two hundred yards from St Thomas's, which is closing).
Last week, we closed two chapels on the same day. I had to preach and lead both services - they were reported on (badly and inaccurately and with an agenda I don't like) by the BBC on Monday.
They were the fifth and sixth chapels in our Circuit to close since the beginning of the last Connexional year (1 September 2011-31 August 2012), although one of them was a pure URC which had a Methodist minister looking after it, and another was a URC/Methodist single congregation in a URC building.
Today, most members of the closed chapels were worshipping in other churches in the Circuit. We have lost non-attending members, for sure, but by far the majority of those who attended the chapels which have closed worshipped elsewhere in the Circuit today, and will continue, hopefully.
It has been painful, but we hope that we can embrace inevitable change optimistically, and allow God to prune us so that we might serve the present age: we hope to concentrate on the churches which are showing signs of growth and potential for further growth, and re-shape our Circuit effectively.
I am sure that God hasn't finished with either Anglicanism or Methodism in Pembrokeshire - and if the Bishop of St David's has got anything to do with it, we will be working together far more closely.
Sadly, I won't be here to witness it, because I am on the move next summer!
[ 02. September 2012, 20:35: Message edited by: Ondergard ]
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Is part of the problem that even if it had fantastic church going figures, the permanent population of west Pembrokeshire is too low now to sustain the number of churches and chapels it had when agriculture was all done by hand?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
Yes, I think you are right on that score - just as you would be right on that score in many other rural areas, like Cornwall, where I once served.
That's why we believe the way forward is gathered churches on Sunday supporting midweek Cell/House/Class Meetings midweek.
By the way, a POI for Lansker... we aren't called Wesleyan Methodists, and haven't been since 1932, when Methodist Union happened. I know it might seem trivial to you, but it wouldn't be if I started to call the Church in Wales the Church of England in Wales, would it?
Bearing in mind that Methodist Union happened almost as long ago as Welsh disestablishment, I think the concept should have sunk in ecumenically by now, don't you?
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
By the way, a POI for Lansker... we aren't called Wesleyan Methodists, and haven't been since 1932, when Methodist Union happened. I know it might seem trivial to you, but it wouldn't be if I started to call the Church in Wales the Church of England in Wales, would it?
I presume that Lansker referred to 'Wesleyan Methodists' as a way of distinguishing them from the Calvinistic Methodists, who were very significant in Wales at one time.
Are the 'Wesleyan Methodists' now more numerous in Wales than the Calvinistic variety?
[ 02. September 2012, 23:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Calvinistic Methodists are now known as the Presbyterian Church of Wales (PCW) but in conversation they're often IME simply referred to as Methodists so often you need to do some unpicking to find out what's meant. Pace Ondergard, I do often find myself using the W word in those situations in the absence of a better one. "Proper" always seems like it might be offensive! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Especially in Welsh speaking areas I think Seasick
Not in more English speaking areas - in fact if someone said 'Methodist' to me here I'd assume they meant 'Wesleyan' and not Calvinistic but to one of more former colleagues at work - admittedly in a Welsh speaking area - Methodist meant Calvinistic Methodist = PCW
I can assure Ondergard that no disrespect was meant to the Methodist Church at least as far as I was concerned and - I suspect - Below the Lansker
The other thing in Wales to be aware of is the United Reformed Church, in England a union of Presbyterians and Congregationalists. In Wales, the Anglophone Congregationalists have joined the URC, the PCW hasn't and Welsh Comgregationalism - 'Annibynwyr' in Welsh - is still a different denomination
With regard to Svitlana's question, I'm not sure. Certainly the Methodist churches in Swansea seem to be doing OK - Mumbles Methodist Church for instance is open daily, it's had renovation work I think and it also runs a cafe, so they seem to be doing OK, AFAICT.
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
With regard to the use of Wesleyan Methodist, it was intended as a way of distinguishing you from Welsh Presbyterians. It's obviously not an issue in England, but using the word Methodist here (especially with people from a Welsh-speaking background) will often bring the rejoinder 'which ones do you mean?'. However, apologies if it raised any hackles.
Calvinistic Methodism was especially strong in the Welsh-speaking North and North-western areas, stretching down as far as South Cardiganshire. They have always been relatively weak in Pembrokeshire, due largely to a number of early fratricidal disagreements between Methodist preachers and to the fact that Baptists and Congregationalists had already established a network of congregations (both Welsh and English speaking) by the end of the 18th century. Even in their Welsh-speaking heartlands, they have undergone precipitous decine. Methodism in English-speaking Pembrokeshire tended to take the form of Wesleyan or (more rarely) Primitive Methodism. There are some Calvinistic Methodist chapels in English-speaking southern Pembrokeshire, but they are few and far between.
As for the number of houses of worship in relation to the population, yes it probably is true that there are far more buildings than we need. Even when some of them were built 'in the good old days when the chapels were full', it is clear from looking at the population returns and the capacity of some of the buildings that they would only have ever been full for special occasions.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Well for those who are interested the GB are meeting next week
Governing Body Meeting
I shall be safe and sound in the north of England..... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ...
Weapons .......
Well how about.....custard pies, jelly, fresh cream gateau......or will people be content with guided missals......
[ 05. September 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: Stephen ]
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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