homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Lance Armstrong and the consequences (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Lance Armstrong and the consequences
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Lance Armstrong dose not contest doping charges, and in consequence is stripped of his seven Tour de France titles. At least so if the US anti-doping agency Usada prevails against international cycling federation UCI.

Is it still believable that any of the top competitors in cycling are "clean"? Like, say, one Bradley Wiggins?

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Difficult to know, but I can see that if you'd had had to fight something for 10 years - it is just possible you might throw in the towel even if you were innocent.

I think the prosecution still need to make an actual case.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401

 - Posted      Profile for quantpole   Email quantpole   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is slightly more believable as they are riding slower these days. Team sky hiring certain doctors puts a bit of doubt there though. In cycling circles lance has been assumed to have been doping for a long time so its not exactly news. What is more interesting is whether the UCI were complicit in the whole thing. As far as lance goes the battle is a PR on, which judging by Twitter he is still doing ok at.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr Tambourine Man
Shipmate
# 15361

 - Posted      Profile for Mr Tambourine Man         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Road Cycling was dirty until recently but if you follow the tours you'll notice that it's changed in the last decade. You no longer see half so many 'spectacular' sprints up Category 1 climbs but more constant speeds. The authorities have also got serious with the Blood passport and stripping guilty riders of victories.

As for Brad (who comes originally from the squeaky clean world of British track cycling), he puts it wonderfully here :

"If I doped I would potentially stand to lose everything. It's a long list. My reputation, my livelihood, my marriage, my family, my house. Everything I have achieved, my Olympic medals, my world titles, the CBE I was given. I would have to take my children to the school gates in a small Lancashire village with everyone looking at me, knowing I had cheated, knowing I had, perhaps, won the Tour de France, but then been caught."

Call me naif but when I saw Brad win in Paris last month there was no suspicion in my mind.

Posts: 87 | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
He may well have used drugs. But I don't understand how they can strip him of his wins if he's never tested positive for drugs. (Yes, I know there are people who say he used...but that's not the same as a test result.)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401

 - Posted      Profile for quantpole   Email quantpole   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

I think the prosecution still need to make an actual case.

The last thing LA wanted was this to go to.arbitration and the full details be exposed. By not contesting the case he is hoping that won't happen and he can still make himself out as the persecuted victim. USADA say more details will come out but other people are still being charged.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401

 - Posted      Profile for quantpole   Email quantpole   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
He may well have used drugs. But I don't understand how they can strip him of his wins if he's never tested positive for drugs. (Yes, I know there are people who say he used...but that's not the same as a test result.)

There are test results, but excuses were made (and accepted which is where UCI might get into trouble) e.g. on the basis of backdated prescriptions. Also, testing is not the be all and end all. Many people have been found to have doped and admitted it without test results. The effect of doping is easier to pick up than the drugs themselves which is where the biopassport has come in, and I think that was going to be part of the USADA case.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497

 - Posted      Profile for lowlands_boy   Email lowlands_boy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is generally considered to be getting cleaner as time goes on, but even as late as 2010 the then winner of the TdF (Alberto Contador) was stripped of the title. He blamed contaminated meat.

Armstrong has successfully rebutted pretty much continuous allegations of doping for many years. Interestingly, there was recently a court case in the US centered around whether or not he (and his team) had effectively used US Government money to dope while he was the centre piece of the US Postal team. That ended up not going ahead. It will be interesting to see, if USADA are in a position to name all the people who agreed to testify in their case, whether that court case will make a comeback.

If not, and the names of witnesses don't come out, or they wouldn't be prepared to take the stand in a criminal case, Armstrong supporters will just argue there is no case to answer - which I suppose is kind of what his position is now.

It's also worth noting that not all the "governing bodies" are in agreement here. The UCI (the cycling body) have been contesting in the US that USADA had no jurisdiction in the case. In turn, WADA has accused UCI of jeopordising their own credibility on the whole doping issue.

It's all a bit of a pigs ear really.

--------------------
I thought I should update my signature line....

Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I note he had brain surgery two years prior to his first tour win. If he did dope, I wonder if that effected his judgement ? Even quite subtle damage to the frontal lobes of the brain can increase risk taking and lower social awareness and reasoning.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It will never be clear to me how much testosterone Lance needed to take after his cancer, just to function normally, and how much would be needed to put him at an advantage over the other cyclists. Do the examiners even know? Do the people who witnessed him using drugs know whether it was medicine he needed for his illness or illegal drugs?

He may be guilty of all charges, but if he didn't do anything wrong apart from getting cancer then it's just a huge, crying shame.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401

 - Posted      Profile for quantpole   Email quantpole   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
He is on record saying he never took any restricted drugs even whilst having treatment. In any case it isn't just testosterone but also steroids, EPO, growth hormones, blood transfusions.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

 - Posted      Profile for The Great Gumby   Author's homepage   Email The Great Gumby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Is it still believable that any of the top competitors in cycling are "clean"? Like, say, one Bradley Wiggins?

Yes. The tragedy of this is that the case is big news just when cycling's been starting to get its act together on doping, and the biological passport's massively reduced the level and impact of doping from the peloton a deux vitesses* days.

Ross Tucker's done some good work on this, covering the impact of the bio passport and analysing power output this year. Cycling fans are naturally cautious and cynical, given the legacy of the last 20 years, but Evans last year and now Wiggins both seem to be clean and plausible.


* Two-speed peloton - no translation for peloton.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
He may well have used drugs. But I don't understand how they can strip him of his wins if he's never tested positive for drugs. (Yes, I know there are people who say he used...but that's not the same as a test result.)

The same way as Marion Jones, David Millar, Richard Virenque and many other people were convicted of doping without a positive test result. He had the opportunity to contest the charges, and chose not to. That's the same as pleading guilty, whatever spin he wants to put on it.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
It will never be clear to me how much testosterone Lance needed to take after his cancer, just to function normally, and how much would be needed to put him at an advantage over the other cyclists. Do the examiners even know? Do the people who witnessed him using drugs know whether it was medicine he needed for his illness or illegal drugs?

He may be guilty of all charges, but if he didn't do anything wrong apart from getting cancer then it's just a huge, crying shame.

You needn't worry about that. [Biased]

This case isn't based on a few strange test results - it's based on specific, corroborated eye-witness testimony from his ex-teammates that you were either "on the program" or you were out. Floyd Landis, George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, Jonathan Vaughters and many others have testified that the entire team were on a systematic doping regime (mainly blood and EPO, I think), with strong hints that the UCI was complicit in covering up and giving notice of any planned tests. Of course, if Lance was innocent, he could and surely would have mounted a defence. He didn't.

But we'll probably get to see into the dealings of his team in time. Some of the detail will most likely come out in Johan Bruyneel's related hearing (unless he decides to fold as well), Travis Tygart has said there's nothing to stop the evidence being published now, and I imagine there's going to be a lot of interest in some people finally coming clean.

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Anything Armstrong was prescribed for a medical condition is allowable. The question is not whether Armstrong took any drugs, but whether he took anything not prescribed or anything above the levels prescribed.

There's also a thread about this in the Circus.

--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can't find it immediately, but I think there is performance evidence to support the assertion that cycling is cleaner. There were at least two positive tests in the 2012 Tour de France, with both riders sent home forthwith. The Tour needs another 'druggie' winner like it needs a hole in the head. In so far as you can be certain of anything, Wiggo doesn't do drugs.

In general, British cycling is reckoned clean at the top, now. You can never be 100% certain, even with Brailsford at the helm, but I'd be surprised if there was any authorised or condoned monkeying about with drugs to gain advantage. The Brailsford focus on technology and performance improvement has always been the cumulative value of detailed very small - and legitimately obtained - improvements.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think we are a while away from finding out just how this plays out. The USADA's approach here, even if it is technically within the rules/its jurisdiction, is a LONG way from normal procedure. It's by no means clear that the international cycling community is going to accept that just because a US agency has declared Lance Armstrong cheated, it has to agree that Lance Armstrong cheated.

Especially not when the relevant international bodies have explicitly told the USADA to stop doing what it was doing.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245

 - Posted      Profile for Emendator Liturgia   Author's homepage   Email Emendator Liturgia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
[QUOTE] Cycling fans are naturally cautious and cynical, given the legacy of the last 20 years, but Evans last year and now Wiggins both seem to be clean and plausible.

Knowing one person who has known for many years as a friend as well as team mate one prominant Australian rider mentioned frequently,this statement might not be totally on track. Blood oxygenisation is as enhancing as artificual stimulants etc. and has not been regularly checked, or as stringently.

--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!

Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure about blood oxygenation. Use of EPO and Blood Doping (by transfusion) both improve blood oxygenation and are both illegal. While there's a reliable test for EPO use, I don't think Blood Doping by transfusion is detectable by medical means.

Are you referring to something else which is currently classified as illegal, but not regularly tested?

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857

 - Posted      Profile for Sylvander   Author's homepage   Email Sylvander   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So what will the consequences be now that Armstrong is stripped of his tour titles?
Will the record the runner-up as winner?
In 2000, 2001 and 2003 he finished ahead of Jan Ulrich. Surely they won't give him the title instead, seeing HE has been officially banned for doping. Will they then list the third-finishing guy and so on? Will they have to go down the list until the first Italian comes up?
(I understand the Italian anti-doping agents have the reputation of beeing less keen to catch their own guys than those in other countries).
Or will the winners' list of the Tour de France just record a blank #1 for the seven Armstrong years?

Another question: I recently read Tim Krabbé's The Runner (an excellent novel about cycle racing) and wondered when systematic doping might have begun.

Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169

 - Posted      Profile for Grits   Author's homepage   Email Grits   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would never go so far as to assert Armstrong never took drugs. But to fool EVERY test over a 10 year period? I think there has to be something to that. IMO, no one has proven anything.

--------------------
Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.

Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've been wondering if maybe his cancer is back? Guilty or not, he might want to give his energy to that rather than further wranglings. Hope that's not the case, though.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

 - Posted      Profile for The Great Gumby   Author's homepage   Email The Great Gumby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I would never go so far as to assert Armstrong never took drugs. But to fool EVERY test over a 10 year period? I think there has to be something to that. IMO, no one has proven anything.

Be careful. It's a bitch trying to get the sand out of your ears and nose.

Did you miss the many confessed drug cheats who never tested positive? I mentioned a couple upthread, and I'd have thought you might have heard of Marion Jones at least. Did you miss the strong suggestion that the UCI were complicit in this, even tipping Armstrong off when a test was planned? And there are many known ways of evading doping controls, from flushing your system with water and diuretics to substituting someone else's urine via a catheter bag.

Barnabas, the bio passport is intended to pick up variations which suggest blood doping, and while it takes a lot to justify a ban based on that information (deliberately so), it helps to target testing, and keeps the level of doping within fairly narrow margins. I'd also be interested to know what "blood oxygenisation" is being alleged, though.

Sylvander, I think we have to wait and see on the titles. We may yet end up with a farcical swap of one doper for another, for boring official reasons, but I think Riis's 96 win was just annulled, and the record books show an asterisk next to it. That would be my preferred option, but with so many different processes to follow, common sense may not play much of a part.

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just a PS. TGG's crossposted links were to the evidence I'd seen suggesting that cycling is cleaner, following the EPO test and the bio passport. Your sins are more likely to be found out.

The links also contain some observations on Wiggins' outburst. Outbursts don't tell you a lot, except that the person is pissed off. Which he clearly was.

To illustrate the problem, here's a more controlled attack on a journalist. It's pretty revealing.

Paul Kimmage's use of "cancer" and "remission" in his thinly-veiled attack on Lance Armstrong was just a piece of crap. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference that he may well have been right about Armstrong's use of performance enhancements. His observation was not "clever journalism" it was tasteless and vile. Armstrong was completely right to pan him for it at the beginning of his response.

And that's the sort of thing that cyclists are also up against, given the chequered history of the sport in recent years. Throw enough mud and some of it will stick. If you target anyone prominent, you're going to be right some of the time, so just take a potshot for any reason at all. After all, you're a journalist.

I'm with the clean-up brigade. Cycling needs it. It's not easy to do and it isn't helped by careless journalistic accusations, nasty innuendo, or outbursts in response.

As for Lance Armstrong himself, I think Gumby is right to point us to the evidence against which will be published. From what I read so far, it's likely to be impressive.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I would never go so far as to assert Armstrong never took drugs. But to fool EVERY test over a 10 year period? I think there has to be something to that. IMO, no one has proven anything.

This seems to be a common misconception, one promoted by Armstrong himself. In fact, he has failed tests, as discussed in this article.
Refusing to contest in the way that he has, if he is innocent, is very difficult to understand. Particularly when one considers how much he has to lose.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Particularly when one considers how much he has to lose.

Which is what, exactly? Given that his career is over.

He's not the first person to say "I've had enough of this" by the way. One of the places I went in my mind was Martina Hingis' positive test for cocaine. Having come back out of retirement, she clearly didn't feel that it was worth her while carrying on while fighting to clear her name. She just re-retired herself and that was the end of it.

EDIT: It's also rather mystifying what the USADA thinks it has to gain in this. In no way can you claim to be 'cleaning up the sport' when you rewind history over a decade to ban someone who is no longer competing.

[ 25. August 2012, 10:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Did you read the article I linked to? If you do ever, you will note that, as well as his titles, he stands to lose quite a lot of money.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Only if people actually believe the USADA's findings.

Which, frankly, I think is actually LESS likely in the circumstances where the findings are not being contested. As things stand, we have a number of other organisations saying that the USADA's behaviour is awfully strange, as well as a judge in a civil court saying the same thing while declining to intervene on the grounds that there are specialist sport bodies designed to deal with the issue.

Armstrong will only lose money if others decide the USADA is credible. And up to this point that hasn't happened.

I certainly don't think it's a given that he'll be stripped of his titles by the people who actually gave him those titles.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Part of my scepticism is because the drug testing system is so relentlessly stacked against anyone who is caught up in it.

There are known cases of the drug authorities getting it wrong. Cases where people have had to fight for years and years to prove their case and clear their name. Cases which have demonstrated that the system simply can't cope with all the individual quirks of biochemistry.

Which is highly relevant because, as has been discussed in another thread recently, top athletes are essentially freaks of nature. When everybody is working insanely hard, part of what you gives the edge is being extremely unusual in your physical/genetic make-up. I find it rather worrying that at least some parts of the testing system rely on assumptions that everyone is biochemically the same when clearly that ISN'T the case.

One of the first examples of this I remember coming across was the Australian pentathlete Alex Watson. He was considered guilty of doping himself with caffeine - on the grounds that the level of caffeine in his blood was not possible from drinking coffee, no matter how much you had drunk.

Alex Watson underwent experiments that demonstrated his body accumulated caffeine at an unexpectedly high rate because he couldn't metabolise it normally. The authorities were completely correct in saying that a person with normal biochemistry couldn't possibly have that level of caffeine in their blood, but they made a fundamentally wrong assumption that Alex Watson's biochemistry was normal.

[ 25. August 2012, 11:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
bib
Shipmate
# 13074

 - Posted      Profile for bib     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I feel the whole issue is very sad. Whether the allegations are true or not, Lance is still a remarkable athlete. Drugs couldn't have been the sole reason for such magnificent cycling feats.

--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

 - Posted      Profile for tclune   Email tclune   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I would never go so far as to assert Armstrong never took drugs. But to fool EVERY test over a 10 year period? I think there has to be something to that. IMO, no one has proven anything.

Ah, yes -- the Guys and Dolls defense: 47 arrests; No convictions.

--Tom Clune

--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
I would never go so far as to assert Armstrong never took drugs. But to fool EVERY test over a 10 year period? I think there has to be something to that. IMO, no one has proven anything.

Ah, yes -- the Guys and Dolls defense: 47 arrests; No convictions.

--Tom Clune

How on earth do you equate an arrest with a TEST?

I tell you what Tom. I've been tested for explosives residues in airports at least half a dozen times now. They say it's random selection, but by golly, one day they're going to catch me at it.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

 - Posted      Profile for Tortuf   Author's homepage   Email Tortuf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The reason why the testimony of alleged co conspirators is not favored is that such witnesses have a number of motivations to say what they are saying that are not necessarily aligned with telling the truth.

Revenge, a desire to see others caught up so they don't stand out as much, hope that co-operation will get them something of value, etc., are all reasons for co-conspirator testimony.

Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Meh....testimony is testimony.

And the fact that Hincapie et al, up to 10 former teammates, would have testified is pretty clear that something was going on.

As others have said, by giving in, Armstrong has done what others have done, admitted guilt. He can spin it all he wants.

He's guilty in the eyes of sports jurisprudence.


As for the UCI, if they don't follow through with what WADA says, they will be disbanded as an organizing body.

They will not go to the wall for Lance Armstrong.

Heck, nobody is going to the wall for him, which should tell people something here.

[ 25. August 2012, 14:48: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Meh....testimony is testimony.

The rules of evidence have clearly passed you by. An awful lot of testimony is excluded by courts precisely because its value as truth is highly questionable.

[ 25. August 2012, 14:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

 - Posted      Profile for Tortuf   Author's homepage   Email Tortuf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Og,

I personally saw you using EPO. And, I have several other friends who saw you doing it too.

What are you going to do about it? You can't prove we didn't because we are prepared to testify about times we were all together with you, but no one else was present.

11 to 1, you must have done it.

[ 25. August 2012, 14:57: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A more effective argument:

10 people that said I stole office supplies.


I choose not to confront said 10 people.

I get fired.


I do confront, I've got a chance, although not much of one as we lived pretty much communally for months on end and the office supply cupboard was in the same room as where we lived....and they were stealing with me at the same time so they'll get fired too....

but I would still get fired.


*******

And, yes, testimony is testimony. Its up to the judge/jury to decide what is credible.

But, Lance isn't letting the judge/jury hear that testimony as he's done the equivalent of pleading guilty (no matter how he spins it).

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
A more effective argument:

10 people that said I stole office supplies.


I choose not to confront said 10 people.

I get fired.

I had another job lined up anyway.

See, there's the problem right there with your 'effective argument'. There's an inbuilt assumption that you have something at stake to protect.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
A more effective argument:

10 people that said I stole office supplies.


I choose not to confront said 10 people.

I get fired.


I do confront, I've got a chance, although not much of one as we lived pretty much communally for months on end and the office supply cupboard was in the same room as where we lived....and they were stealing with me at the same time so they'll get fired too....

but I would still get fired.

In the 'Kangaroo courts' one finds in the workplace that would often be so. It also explains why many dismissals are taken to tribunals (and beyond) and the dismissal found to be unsatisfactory if not plain wrong.

*******
quote:

And, yes, testimony is testimony. Its up to the judge/jury to decide what is credible.

But, Lance isn't letting the judge/jury hear that testimony as he's done the equivalent of pleading guilty (no matter how he spins it).

I love this 'equivalent of pleading guilty'. Is the absence of an intact hymen the equivalent of not being a virgin - irrespective of how the bride-to-be spins it?

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

 - Posted      Profile for The Great Gumby   Author's homepage   Email The Great Gumby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Meh....testimony is testimony.

The rules of evidence have clearly passed you by. An awful lot of testimony is excluded by courts precisely because its value as truth is highly questionable.
But Armstrong chose not to question it. If the evidence is so questionable (as it must be if he's innocent, right?) he could show that in arbitration.

Of course, it's not just "the testimony of co-conspirators" (would you use the same argument if a mafia boss went down, I wonder?). There's testimony of people who had nothing to do with it, with no possible motive for perjuring themselves, corroborating those stories. Start with the driver of the team bus which "broke down" so they could get a quick infusion of blood. Move on to the reported lab source confirming that Armstrong tested positive for EPO in the 2002 Tour de Suisse, but it was hushed up. There's probably a whole lot more, including physical evidence, test results and who knows what else. We'll have to wait until the evidence comes out.

Lots of people drinking the Pharmstrong Kool-Aid today.

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
A more effective argument:

10 people that said I stole office supplies.


I choose not to confront said 10 people.

I get fired.

I had another job lined up anyway.

See, there's the problem right there with your 'effective argument'. There's an inbuilt assumption that you have something at stake to protect.

This is nonsense. Of course Armstrong has something at stake to protect. His titles. His fortune, at least part of which is linked to him being drug free. Most of all, his reputation.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So, the whole "I'm moving on with my life" speech is a total lie, and he's sitting somewhere wetting his pants?

Okay then.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What jurisdiction do the USADA have to strip him of The title? Genuinely curious [Confused]

[ 25. August 2012, 20:22: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wharf jurisdiction do the USADA have to strip him of The title? Genuinely curious [Confused]

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

 - Posted      Profile for Tortuf   Author's homepage   Email Tortuf   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why Klingon jurisdiction, of course.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gah! Feckin' mobile phone!

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@Gumby

Norfolk UK sings in unison again. Lance was "definitely not the Messiah" of the cycling world; it's become increasingly clear that "a very naughty boy" is likely to be closer to the mark.

[Says he, speaking as a one-time admirer]

And I'm off for two weeks, so, regretfully, this is likely to be my last contribution for a while.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So, the whole "I'm moving on with my life" speech is a total lie, and he's sitting somewhere wetting his pants?

Okay then.

If you're under the impression that this is a full rebuttal, just to let you know - it isn't.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
koshatnik
Shipmate
# 11938

 - Posted      Profile for koshatnik   Email koshatnik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
According to a scientific adviser to the French anti-doping agency, Armstrong was warned before all planned doping controls.
quote:
The inspectors encountered many difficulties in making unannounced checks. Armstrong was always informed in advance, so he still had twenty minutes to cover his tracks. He could thin his blood or replace his urine. He used the EPO only in small quantities, so it was no longer there to detect. We were powerless against this way of working
Here's the link
Posts: 467 | From: top of the pops to drawing the dole | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So, the whole "I'm moving on with my life" speech is a total lie, and he's sitting somewhere wetting his pants?

Okay then.

If you're under the impression that this is a full rebuttal, just to let you know - it isn't.
I'm not suggesting that it is. What I'm suggesting, though, is that that scenario has its own problems. You basically seem to suggest that rather than "I don't care anymore" being a true picture, he does indeed care and he's hoping an extremely risky bluff pays off.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Absolutely not, and how you could come to that conclusion is mystifying. I am implying that walking away in the manner that he has, when he has so much to lose, suggests he doesn't think he will be successful. If he did, with everything at stake I have pointed out, it is inconceivable that he would simply say 'Ah, Bugger it!'
If Armstrong is anything, he is a scrapper. Why give up now?

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So...um...no-one has answered my question: wtf have the pronouncements of an American drug body got to do with the Tour de France?

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools