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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are the USA and UK up to their old tricks again in Syria?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Democracy is ALWAYS bad for freedom in revolutions (France, Russia, Iran), apart from the American and countries whose revolutionized citizenry aspire to the Enlightenment, to pluralism, minority rights.
In Syria as in Egypt and Iraq and Palestine Sunni Islamic majority democracy means less minority rights. The Syrian Christian minority will go the way of the Iraqi. They are complicit in the regime that uses divide and rule. They will pay.
If anyone thinks that regime change in Saudi or Bahrain will benefit the region ...
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
[ Iraq proves the point and is Iraq any better now than it was under a brutal dictator?
Saul
I was not in favour of the Iraq War (number 2) but there is a simple answer to your question - yes Iraq is considerably better off now than it was under Saddam Hussein. [/QB]
Not sure I'd agree with you on that one; look at this...
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/timeline-deadliest-attacks-in-iraq-in-2012/
Look at the violence in Iraq in 2012. Stable and at peace? I don't think so.
Saddam Hussein was a vile dictator but in his bizarre power mad way he did bring a stability of sorts to that country. I do see him as vile and cruel BUT there was far less day to day violence than there is now.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
[ Iraq proves the point and is Iraq any better now than it was under a brutal dictator?
Saul
I was not in favour of the Iraq War (number 2) but there is a simple answer to your question - yes Iraq is considerably better off now than it was under Saddam Hussein.
Not sure I'd agree with you on that one; look at this...
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/timeline-deadliest-attacks-in-iraq-in-2012/
Look at the violence in Iraq in 2012. Stable and at peace? I don't think so.
Saddam Hussein was a vile dictator but in his bizarre power mad way he did bring a stability of sorts to that country. I do see him as vile and cruel BUT there was far less day to day violence than there is now.
Saul [/QB]
There has been enormous social, political and economic progress in Iraq, the fact that it is plagued with violence a lot of it associated with remnants of the old regime is not really a refutation of that. Baathist rule in Iraq created The Republic of Fear in which the people lived in a state of Stalinist repression for decades - the end of that has to be a major improvement.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Democracy is ALWAYS bad for freedom in revolutions (France, Russia, Iran)
Arguably bad, but certainly not worse than the alternatives. And it is their right to have it, even if it is our bad.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's not our bad is the problem. We're reaping what we've sown. It's the appalling evils that befall minorities. In this case Christian and other sects. Sexual minorities too.
[ 30. August 2012, 21:28: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Utilitarian ethics Martin.
And, like I say, it is their right. We can't keep the oppressor in power because we are frightened of what the oppressed might do.
Although I do also worry about what they will do.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It is not good for a majority that they oppress a minority. A majority get their way and that is good ? At the acute expense of minorities ? That is in fact LESS utilitarian. Less balanced.
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
So you would condemn democracy as guilty for crimes not yet committed? And anyway, what's the alternative? Saddam, Mubarak and Assad?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think you're being a bit pernickity and purist here, Martin.
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Well...
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
[ Iraq proves the point and is Iraq any better now than it was under a brutal dictator?
Saul
I was not in favour of the Iraq War (number 2) but there is a simple answer to your question - yes Iraq is considerably better off now than it was under Saddam Hussein.
Not sure I'd agree with you on that one; look at this...
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/timeline-deadliest-attacks-in-iraq-in-2012/
Look at the violence in Iraq in 2012. Stable and at peace? I don't think so.
Saddam Hussein was a vile dictator but in his bizarre power mad way he did bring a stability of sorts to that country. I do see him as vile and cruel BUT there was far less day to day violence than there is now.
Saul
There has been enormous social, political and economic progress in Iraq, the fact that it is plagued with violence a lot of it associated with remnants of the old regime is not really a refutation of that. Baathist rule in Iraq created The Republic of Fear in which the people lived in a state of Stalinist repression for decades - the end of that has to be a major improvement. [/QB]
Iraq is a symbol of corrupt Western post colonial pseudo imperialism. It is a bad example to pick upon. Iraq may in some parts parts be better than it was pre 2003, but did you actually check that link on bombings in 2012? It is terrible and seems to prove the nation is still hampered by terrorist groups, some are old regime Baathists, but a number are hard line Mujahadin / Al Quaida groups.
The danger is Syria becomes a pawn in the battle between states like Russia, China, Iran, USA and France. It mustn't become a pawn in this game it needs the UK to set a decent humanitarian example, not play silly James Bond games and try to destabilise the Assad regime by MI6 dirty tricks.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mdijon, Sir Pellinore: I'm sure I'm oversensitive but relatively equal shares of contingent misery in a pluralist society seems more desirable than the oppression of minorities.
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Love wins
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
In this instance it almost sounds as if you're channelling Marvin the Paranoid Android, Martin. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
My gut feeling is that, if what is in effect now a full scale civil war comes to an end with the speedy demise of the Ba'athist regime, recriminations may be able to be kept to a minimum.
The Middle East's Christians have survived for centuries. Syria's have powerful supporters in Russia (Orthodox) and the Vatican (Melkites).
A new constitution would not, I think, attempt to disempower minorities. Common sense would dictate that those Alawis who were not involved with the regime or atrocities be conciliated.
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Well...
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
mdijon, Sir Pellinore: I'm sure I'm oversensitive but relatively equal shares of contingent misery in a pluralist society seems more desirable than the oppression of minorities.
I don't think that's the choice. I think the choice is between a brutal dictator denying everyone their rights but favouring a minority to varying extents, versus a popular uprising the outcome of which we aren't sure of.
I don't think we have the right to rule in favour of the brutal dictator.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
mdijon, Sir Pellinore: I'm sure I'm oversensitive but relatively equal shares of contingent misery in a pluralist society seems more desirable than the oppression of minorities.
I don't think that's the choice. I think the choice is between a brutal dictator denying everyone their rights but favouring a minority to varying extents, versus a popular uprising the outcome of which we aren't sure of.
I don't think we have the right to rule in favour of the brutal dictator.
This. Along with the last sentence, we especially don't have the right to rule in favor of a brutal dictator who will slaughter the majority of the population if he has to to maintain power. We may not know the outcome of a regime change, but we at least will have the opportunity to keep world attention on the developing new government so that potential persecuted minorities aren't and a better chance of doing so if done in a transparent manner and not the arrogant one we've chosen in recent history.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A false dichotomy I'm not making mdijon. ALL minorities suffer in such revolutions. France. Russia. Germany. Iran. Iraq.
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
And Britain. Don't forget we had ours.
If there's no dichotomy, then it is simply a comment blowing in the wind. Minorities suffer with and without revolutions. Just different, sometimes overlapping, sometimes fewer, sometimes more minorities.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Not always a fan of Robert Fisk, but this article sums up the messy nature of a civil war.
I am usually a fan of Robert Fisk, and even if I don't agree with his take his writing and observations always seem worth noticing to me.
Although he accurately paints the messy nature of a civil war, I think the narrative of 6 of one half a dozen of the other is not what he is aiming at. That is tempting, but too simplistic. The FSA are not simply a bunch of opportunistic war-lords.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
As far as I am aware, the FSA is not going to attempt to install a new government if and when Assad is overthrown. It may function in a caretaker role though out of necessity.
Because the regime was and is so suppressive very little is known about the political groups which might participate in this government. There are some prominent Syrians abroad acting as spokespersons who all seem fairly moderate.
The continuing civil war itself is killing more and more people. Perhaps a relatively swift end to it and proper control on the ground could prevent more major bloodshed?
The practical, as against theoretical, problem is harm minimisation. Hopefully nations like Egypt and Tunisia, which have had moderate revolutions, may have some impact on the new government.
As much as I admire Robert Fisk, even he is only able to give us limited, area specific information on the conflict.
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Well...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It is and it's a false one mdijon. I hadn't forgotten our revolutionS and yes tolerance was eliminated in the name of ... tolerance, in see-saw fashion. Until a tyrant could establish order with 'equal' (class-based) shares in all cases. Henry VIII, Charles II.
Minorities ALWAYS - and no exception can disprove that rule - suffer in revolutions to the point of extermination one way or another.
Tyrants exploit pluralism to avoid democracy. New democracy rapidly becomes a one-party anti-pluralist state. England (as just added to the list). Cuba. Zimbabwe.
The best we can hope for is what we've got: democracy WITHIN pluralism.
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Love wins
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Agree with all that's been said.
The trick now is to harness the power of jaw jaw and to get all sides to put down weaponry.
This is the £1 million pound conundrum isn't it?
Who is the ''honest broker''? I am not in all honesty optimistic. Robert Fisk is a reporter who I respect and admire, even though I don't always agree with. But that's fine, I admire the fact he gets out there and does ''old fashioned'' reporting. Good man.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/americas-most-senior-general-warns-against-rash-actionon-syria-and-iran-8096 881.html
I like General Dempsey the US General, (see article above) who sensibly is cautious about involvement with Iran and Syria militarily.
My comment to the West, UK, USA etc is step back and reflect on this scenario for a bit. Yes, send humanitarian help but nothing else. Don't be like William Hague the UK Foreign Minister and start a 007 James Bond type training camp for Syrians. Bad move William that's how to get sucked into war.
I know what you're up to Mr Hague - back off.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Minorities ALWAYS - and no exception can disprove that rule - suffer in revolutions to the point of extermination one way or another.
Minorities always suffer. I don't think democracy or revolution are worse in that regard than tyranny.
Can you argue that minorities do better under brutal dictators than under democratic rule?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I suspect, Saul, Western thinking, including that of Mr Hague, is that, if they don't aid the FSA now there is danger of defeat or overdue influence from conservative Wahhabi states like Saudi Arabia (the main funding base for Al Quaida).
It is a "devil or deep blue sea" scenario. ME realpolitik based on energy needs.
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Well...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Minorities are necessary either side of lumpen 'democracy'. In Iraq and soon Syria they have been, are being and will be eliminated.
[ 03. September 2012, 19:06: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
They've been eliminated at various times of history in the UK as well. Granted Cromwell was bad time for minorities, but so was the York massacre.
Likewise in the Middle-East at various times the local Christians have been killed, from the Western crusades through the Umayyad empire's expansion, through to revolution. They haven't done all that well in Palestine either.
I don't see what point you are drawing from your observation, Martin, or what recommendation it leads to either.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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redderfreak
Shipmate
# 15191
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Posted
Personally from what I've read, my inclination is to support the Syrian government against the US and EU and the mercenary terrorist violence they are promoting in Syria. The Syrian government needs to seal their borders and prevent the terrorists and their weapons from getting in. That way we can end the violence and start negotiating Israeli withdrawal from southern Syria and Palestine.
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You know I just couldn't make it by myself, I'm a little too blind to see
Posts: 287 | From: Exeter | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Tell me your last post was a joke, redderfreak.
Perhaps ironic?
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Well...
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redderfreak
Shipmate
# 15191
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Tell me your last post was a joke, redderfreak.
Perhaps ironic?
No, not a joke. I meant it.
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You know I just couldn't make it by myself, I'm a little too blind to see
Posts: 287 | From: Exeter | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Good grief. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Well...
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mdijon, there is no recommendation, nothing can be done. UnEnlightened revolutions are anti-pluralistic no matter how 'democratic'. There are those here who apparently still hope otherwise against experience.
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Love wins
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think what most informed people I know are hoping about the current conflict in Syria is that it will soon end with both the overthrow of the Assad regime and as little recrimination as possible, Martin.
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Well...
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
UnEnlightened revolutions are anti-pluralistic no matter how 'democratic'.
And so is unenlightened dictatorial tyranny. You seem to be repeating your statement and that's my response. Can you develop an argument that revolution is worse than the alternatives in regard to pluralism?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Opportunity knocks in Syria .
The West is out to pull any string and tweak any button in order to coax the whole of the Middle East into the Western Family .
'Give us your oil and we'll made you rich beyond you wildest dreams'.
It is not our intention to create a large pile of bodies in the process, but sadly this seems to be the by-product such meddling .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
The game in Syria is a wee bit more complex, Rolyn.
Syria is Iran's only friend in the Middle East. So Tehran is assisting with weapons and some Revolutionary Guards. Hezbollah, heavily influenced by Iran, has fighters in Syria.
[ 09. September 2012, 02:38: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore ]
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Well...
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Yes Sir Pellimore , I ageer my flippant observations re. current affairs in the Middle East don't really address the complexities of such a cauldron and conundrum as this area of the globe is.
My late father used to study news of Middle Eastern upheavals, and was much concerned about impending military invention in Iraq the year he died . Not sure what he'd make of what's happened since .
I don't study news much, but ISTM that the West is unsure as to whether the post-Sadam Arab Spring is good or bad . Syria is on the edge of the experiment and if we really wanted the rebels to win we'd be supplying them with arms and air-cover.
Is Iran becoming isolated in Arab Spring , or is it now in a position to feed nut groups and produce spoiling tactics long into the future ?
<ramble over and out> ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not so mdijon. Tyrants who benefit from divide and rule - including the British in Iraq and the Raj and throughout the empire - need minorities to hold things in tension.
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Love wins
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
The situation in Syria is becoming more complicated and harder to read, rolyn. There appear to be some tensions amongst those fighting the government in Aleppo between secularists led by a defector from the Army and more locally based groups who are affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood (which is not Al Quaida).
The Islamic Republic of Iran will, as long as it exists in its present state, continue to support Shi'ite militias such as Hezbollah.
It is a hard scenario to read. I'm hoping it doesn't become an area conflagration with Israel involved.
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Well...
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Not so mdijon. Tyrants who benefit from divide and rule - including the British in Iraq and the Raj and throughout the empire - need minorities to hold things in tension.
I'm really not sure that the British did a lot for minority rights in India. Perhaps the British counted themselves as a minority, and the Anglo-Indians were favoured for obvious reasons, but the overall picture of colonial rule doesn't seem positive for any group within Indian society.
It doesn't strike me as a very positive example. And the tensions that were stoked between two large groups were obviously utterly disastrous when expressed in partition.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
UnEnlightened revolutions are anti-pluralistic no matter how 'democratic'.
... Can you develop an argument that revolution is worse than the alternatives in regard to pluralism?
There is a case for saying that, at any rate given the nature of some forms of society, enlightened dictatorship is the best form of government. Like Redderfreak, I have some (but not unlimited) sympathy for President al Assad. Until his elder brother was killed in a motor accident, he had no expectation of becoming President and little interest in politics - he had a medical degree and was just starting on a post-graduate course at the Western Eye Hospital in London. He was only 34 when his father died and he became President (they had to change the Constitution to permit him to become President at lower than the age of 40).
He tried to liberalise Syria - the Damascus Spring, in which there was initially free expression on political matters and wider social questions, and hundreds of political prisoners were released, gave rise to a feeling of optimism across the Arab world. However it went too far and was eventually suppressed, with its leading participants being convicted, probably rightly, of "attempting to change the constitution by illegal means" and "inciting racial and sectarian strife".
Nevertheless, Harriet Sergeant, jounalist and Research Fellow of the Centre for Policy Studies, described Syria last month on the BBC programme Any Questions as having been, after 10 years of President al Assad’s rule, “a peaceful, tolerant, absolutely delightful country”. Members of my family and friends who have been there on holiday confirm this, one remarking on the fact that every village in the hills had its own church. Last year an armed uprising by Sunni rebels destroyed all that. The rebels are intolerant- they are estimated to have expelled 50,000 to 60,000 Christians from Homs; they are supported by jihadists from Libya, Lebanon, Algeria, Britain and other countries and also by al Qaeda; and the atrocities they have committed are as bad as any committed by the Government.
If you were President of a peaceful and tolerant country, and there was an armed uprising in part of it, what action are you supposed to have taken? It is very doubtful if negotiations would have got anywhere. Kofi Annan observed in an article in the Financial Times last month that, contrary to widespread reports, after a ceasefire was agreed on 12 April the Government’s shelling of civilian communities stopped; but there was no sustained international support, when a move towards peace might have been effective, and the rebels did not observe the ceasefire.
Of course Syria was not a democracy in the Western sense, but minorities such as Alawites, to which the ruling class largely belonged (10% or so of the total population), Christians (another 10% or so) and Druze (perhaps 3%) enjoyed cultural and religious freedom; and many will think that that is preferable to the alternative we now see or any alternative we are likely to see when this dreadful revolution and civil war comes to an end.
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Oh, and Al Qaeda Now a U.S. Ally in Syria.
Good grief , no wonder the 9/11 commemoration were kept low key today . The propaganda value of that event has dropped off even more than I had imagined.
Cambodia , US backing of Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge anyone ?
Only this time were talking of an oil-rich and potentially more volatile region .
God help the Middle East if Israel and Iran go at it .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The phrase "not a democracy in a Western sense" is not really adequate to convey a situation where you can only vote for one party, the representatives of which then appoint a president, to be confirmed in a subsequent unopposed national referendum.
In addition, the country was under "emergency rule" for several decades, which granted the government power to order arrest and detention without trial. There were widespread reports of human rights abuses which concerned amnesty and human rights watch well before the uprising.
Given that limited form of democracy, one can imagine protests might be justified. And I would never have guessed from your post that this Assad had ordered his army to open fire on protesting civilians in March 2011.
Regarding minorities, it is worth noting that the Kurds were systematically discriminated against and denied citizenship in their own country under Assad.
And now Syrian troops routinely shell civilians in "rebel held areas" prior to their attacks. And have provided cover to militias which have slaughtered civilians and children.
I don't pretend that the opposition are without stain, there are credible reports of executions and atrocities carried out by them also. But the picture of a gentle Assad making a reasonable response to an armed insurrection is inaccurate.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
egg, I suggest the "peaceful, tolerant, absolutely delightful country" impressions quoted did not perceive the brutality which held Syria together. Surface impressions are sometimes deceptive.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Mark is just expressing his usual affection for authoritarian regimes (as he did on the Pussy Riot thread).
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
egg, I suggest the "peaceful, tolerant, absolutely delightful country" impressions quoted did not perceive the brutality which held Syria together. Surface impressions are sometimes deceptive.
Mdijon challenged us to develop an argument that revolution is worse than the alternatives in regard to pluralism. I have tried to do so. As I said, given the nature of some forms of society, especially perhaps in artificially formed multicultural countries as Iraq and Syria were after 1918, a strong hand may be needed to keep the country together for the benefit of all its citizens, yes and sometimes with a degree of armed force and even brutality. We did the same in India after the Mutiny of 1857, with lasting benefit to most Indians, and in Kenya and (with less brutality) in Malaya in the 1950s; the French did it (with less success) in Vietnam and Algeria; the North did it when the Southern States, probably quite constitutionally, tried to break away from the Union in 1861 (remember Sherman in Atlanta 1864? – it is estimated that 750,000 soldiers and an undetermined number of civilians died in the American civil war), and it was a long time before it could be claimed that the war had brought real benefits to the whole country.
My belief is that, unless one gets involved in politics, which almost inevitably means opposition to the regime and which often leads to revolution, for most citizens of a plural society such as Syria, particularly for the substantial minorities I mentioned, the relatively peaceful pluralism which they enjoyed for the first 10 years of al-Assad’s Presidency was far preferable to the civil war to which the revolution, fuelled by Saudi Arabia, USA, UK et al, has led.
And no one has yet suggested what President al-Assad should have done when faced with an uprising in part of his country, even if initially (as is usually the case) it started with “peaceful protests” and the rebels did not immediately take up arms against his regime.
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egg
Posts: 110 | From: London UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I'm guessing the Alawites and Christians are getting their bags packed. Oh, and Al Qaeda Now a U.S. Ally in Syria.
As they have been allied with the USA against Iran for years.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
And no one has yet suggested what President al-Assad should have done when faced with an uprising in part of his country, even if initially (as is usually the case) it started with “peaceful protests” and the rebels did not immediately take up arms against his regime.
He should have left office along with his corrupt oppressive regime. He should have instituted multi-party democracy and allowed free and fair elections. (The latter would have led to the former).
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
We did the same in India after the Mutiny of 1857, with lasting benefit to most Indians
Colonial rule was not for the benefit of the Indians. It was to ensure that the East India Trading Company could continue to make money.
Many divisions and tensions in the countries were provoked and used by the British to "divide and rule". The British had no business creating a country for the benefit of their empire, and even less business using brutality and force to hold it together.
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
and in Kenya and
Where, within a decade of the fall of Nazi Germany, Britain were running concentration camps using summary justice and torture to put down an independence movement.
Brutal rule and suppression of democracy can never be the right thing. We wouldn't tolerate it in Europe, why should we tolerate it for Africans, Indians or Arabs.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mdijon - I agree. On everything. There is no positive case. Under tyrants everyone gets relatively equal shares of oppression, the water bed is relatively flat. Under ethnic/religious 'democracy' the majority benefit at the cost of the minorities. Sharply. The water bed has sharp deeps. The average misery stays the same, but a lot futher from the mode.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The average misery stays the same, but a lot futher from the mode.
This is where we disagree then. The average misery of independent and democratic India is much reduced compared with the average misery under colonial rule. Just ask the Indians, they'll tell you.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
egg: I don't think mdijon was inviting people to a theoretical talkfest but to a discussion of the current critical reality.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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