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Source: (consider it) Thread: Why get married at all?
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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I was married once. So I am not about to claim neutrality re this topic.

I was having a beer with my cousin and her partner the other day. They have been together for eight years, and are committed to each other. They are both vehemently opposed to getting married. They have none of the same emotional baggage I bring to the topic. They are quite prepared to continue living together, have children together, grow old together, the whole shebang. They just see no reason why they would bother getting married.

On being pressed further, they offered the following insights:
  • Both are strong supporters of same-sex marriage, which is still not legal in Australia. If marriage is not open to everyone, then it has little value to them.
  • Even if same-sex marriage was legal here in Oz, or most places (which I seem to recall is the standard Brangelina require before they tie the knot), they would still not do it. They simply see no logical reason why they should get married.

So why should people still get married? Don't get me wrong - if people want to get married I think they should be free to (and for that reason I also support same-sex marriage). I don't think it should be forbidden. But given that you can do everything that used to be attached to marriage - have sex, live together, raise a family etc. - without being married, my question to you remains - why get married at all?

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Raptor Eye
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I think it's the individual interpretation of what marriage means that's all important.

Some see it as simply a piece of paper which affirms a legal status.

Some see it as a public declaration of the intention to remain as partners for life.

Some see it as standing before God and asking for God's blessing on the loving union between two people, which is far more far-reaching than sex.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Zach82
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I'm not much of a romantic, but I still believe that God can be praised with a relationship through the sacrament of matrimony. Plus, *cough* the sex thing.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Anyuta
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not everything.

I had no intention of getting married a second time. I had every intention of staying in a committed relationship etc. just as your friends, and didn't have any interest in a piece of paper that proved it, or even for that matter of a church service that blessed it.

But I did it anyway. why? because it expedited immigration for my now husband. He was in the process of applying for asylum, had a work permit (aka green card), and was unlikely to be deported, but the possibility of his petition being denied was not zero, and we had a child. I decided that since I didn't really care one way or the other about that piece of paper (marriage), but I did care about another piece of paper (citizenship) for him, getting the one to ensure the other was not a difficult choice to make.

So yes, there are still things that marriage brings to the table (legally speaking) that can't be obtained easily a different way. Those fighting for same sex marriage can give you a whole long list of others... those things they are denied which married people have, such as assurance that their shared child will be granted to the surviving parent who may not be the biological parent, in the case when the biological parent dies, for one thing (probably not as much an issue with opposite sex partnerships where both are the biological parent, but still requires some legwork to prove that the father is really the father). Insurance is another. Inheritance is another. most can be worked around by different means, but they are much, much easier with a marriage certificate.

All these are legalistic issues, though. I am sure there are other reasons, I just personally can't think of any. But then, I carry a lot of baggage as well, which tends to predispose me to looking at marriage (legality) as a means to an end rather than an end in itself. I didn't think that way before my first marriage. I wanted the whole package, just like most. life taught me differently (and like the OP poster.. I don't necessarily object to marriage in others. I see it as optional, and neutral rather than a negative or positive)

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Snags
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I think the flip-side question is equally important: if you're definitely life-time committed to each other, why not get married?

Personally I don't set too much store by the legal or even official church side of it. I'd have genuinely been happy to make promises of commitment to Mrs Snags in a nice setting, in front of people who meant something to us, and 'in front of God' and that would have done me. I wouldn't have meant it any more or any less.

However, given that marriage does exist and at the time was (is?) the conventional way to mark such commitment, and given I had no deeply rooted principled objection to a church wedding, it seemed a little churlish to buck the system just for the sake of it.

I know a few couples who aren't married on a point of personal principle. I know a lot more who aren't married because (I suspect) when push comes to shove, they value the psychological 'out' that they get.

There are crap reasons to get married, and crap reasons not to [Smile]

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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IconiumBound
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# 754

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One point to consider about the marriage is that establishes a point in time that the commitment began. Anniversary celebrations are a way of honoring that commitment.
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Cara
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# 16966

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An interesting question.

I'm commenting as someone who has been married once, to the same person, for over thirty years.

I feel that there is something different about marriage as compared to even the most sincere and intentionally-long-term commitment.

I think the fact that you stand up in public, whether in a church or a registry office, and make those vows in front of the people most important to you, gives the whole thing an added weight and gravity. If you're married in church and believe the beliefs of that church, even more so.

I suspect that at rough times, it's only the fact of being married that has kept many a couple together! The promises, the commitment made in public--these make it harder to walk away when the going gets tough. And in later years, many such couples are glad they stayed together through the ups and downs.
(I hasten to add I am absolutely not advocating staying together in every circumstance).

These are the sorts of things I say when people, usually younger than me, ask what's the point of having "that piece of paper."

Then again, I come from the generation where marriage was still the norm--though norms were being very much shaken-- and I wanted that public acknowledgement--that feeling that my spouse had publicly chosen me and committed to me (and vice versa). A blessing upon and celebration of our coupledom. And I suppose some sense of security.

So I'd be the first to admit that my thoughts--or perhaps more accurately, feelings--on the matter are very much conditioned by
the era I grew up in--not so long ago, but very different. And of course in those times more marriages did last--though that was changing too, and in my own family I saw several that did not.

Cara

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Pondering.

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Woodworm
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# 13798

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One reason for getting married is to make sure that you, and the rest of the world, are on the same page as regards your commitment to one another. It sounds as if your friends made are switched on and level-headed and have already expressed their commitment to one another and to the world. But we probably all know couples where one has thought it was for life only for the other one to piss off with the first passing barmaid. Of course that happens in marriages too, but then the person leaving has broken a public promise and should be horsewhipped.

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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
On being pressed further, they offered the following insights:
  • Both are strong supporters of same-sex marriage, which is still not legal in Australia. If marriage is not open to everyone, then it has little value to them.
  • Even if same-sex marriage was legal here in Oz, or most places (which I seem to recall is the standard Brangelina require before they tie the knot), they would still not do it. They simply see no logical reason why they should get married.

Is it only me who sees a logical problem with this? If marriage is such a vital institution that it must be extended to all, then there exists a powerful reason to get married. If, OTOH, it is an empty symbol, then there is no compelling reason to worry about extending it at all. Your friends need to make up their minds. It really sounds like they are throwing excuses for themselves against the wall and hoping that one sticks.

--Tom Clune

[ 29. August 2012, 12:24: Message edited by: tclune ]

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Vaticanchic
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# 13869

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Very sensible Thread, Dark Knight, good question.

Leaving aside the same-sex aspect, which is another area, marriage in its meaning as a lifelong heterosexual union (which is what it is, as many gay people would agree) raises as many questions as answers.

Why indeed, when so much hurt and trouble could be avoided by people simply not getting married at all?! The truth is that the Church too often continues to operate with the Christendom model of marriage as the normative means of social control. In fact, this does not sit at all well with the Church's highly exalted theology of marriage, surely indicating an exceptional rather than a routine calling?

I play devil's advocate slightly, but it is true that the world's loudest voices on marriage and the conception/upbringing of children are those of single, childless men who often dine rather well in the evening while brother/sister Christian down the road lives in long-term squalor and poverty in faithfulness to Church teaching.

Having been married for a significant time, my own reflections are that marriage (as distinct from the loving relationship(s) within it) primarily exists for those other than the couple in question. Children, wider family, society, Church, eg. Perhaps this is where Christian marriage differs from secular unions.

So, I suppose to venture an answer to the Thread, get married if you and your chosen spouse feel you have a lot to give and to share. If you simply need each other, you probably shouldn't do it.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Zach82
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Knowing full well this will get me in trouble, why be a Christian at all? One can have a profound, satisfying relationship with God without baptism, so why bother? Unless one can't have that relationship without baptism. Then becoming baptized is the most important thing in the world.

What if marriage is the same? Two people can love each other, be committed to each other, even have children with each other. But until they seek God's blessing on that union in God's Church, it is not marriage and is not a Godly union.

In both cases, in baptism and marriage, one can save himself a whole lot of trouble by not bothering.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Vaticanchic
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Perhaps same answer.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
But given that you can do everything that used to be attached to marriage - have sex, live together, raise a family etc. - without being married, my question to you remains - why get married at all?

Most young (and young-ish) people in our circles get married when children are on the cards. I think this is a good thing, it gives a sense of commitment and stability to the new family imo.

If either of my sons announce that they are marrying their partners I will think "wayhay-grandchildren".

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Is it only me who sees a logical problem with this? If marriage is such a vital institution that it must be extended to all, then there exists a powerful reason to get married.

Good point. Marriage remains a powerful institution worldwide, an important building block of a stable society.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Vaticanchic
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Perhaps, but for people of faith, the proposed end is never sufficient to justify the certain means.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Perhaps same answer.

I suppose if people see no value in being a Christian, or see no particular importance in obeying and praising God in one's relationships, marriage can seem of little value. The only things left are economic, legal, and social issues.

Indeed, those seem to be the primary preoccupations of this thread.

[ 29. August 2012, 13:15: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
On being pressed further, they offered the following insights:
  • Both are strong supporters of same-sex marriage, which is still not legal in Australia. If marriage is not open to everyone, then it has little value to them.
  • Even if same-sex marriage was legal here in Oz, or most places (which I seem to recall is the standard Brangelina require before they tie the knot), they would still not do it. They simply see no logical reason why they should get married.

Is it only me who sees a logical problem with this? If marriage is such a vital institution that it must be extended to all, then there exists a powerful reason to get married. If, OTOH, it is an empty symbol, then there is no compelling reason to worry about extending it at all. Your friends need to make up their minds. It really sounds like they are throwing excuses for themselves against the wall and hoping that one sticks.
I had a similar thought, but I draw a different conclusion. It sounds to me like they can't even begin to understand why it would be meaningful. I expect they've found that the stand on same-sex marriage, with which I have a certain amount of sympathy (not that I'd ever consider getting divorced to show solidarity) is much easier for most people to accept and understand than a sort of shrugging "I just don't get it". It's probably also one of many things that they feel makes the concept of marriage rather hollow and easily-dismissed. Not everyone sets out their reasoning like a legal submission.

And I accept that you probably didn't mean it like this, but I don't think it's reasonable or helpful to talk about "excuses" as if they need to justify their decision to anyone. If the decision of two people on the other side of the world not to marry each other has any effect on me at all, that effect is of a similar order to the gravitational pull of a single far-distant star.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I feel that there is something different about marriage as compared to even the most sincere and intentionally-long-term commitment.

I think the fact that you stand up in public, whether in a church or a registry office, and make those vows in front of the people most important to you, gives the whole thing an added weight and gravity. If you're married in church and believe the beliefs of that church, even more so.

That's my belief also.

I think the real issue here is one of belief. Without faith in God there is no real reason for marriage, other than an economic one.

Of course, the economic argument is pretty powerful. It is easy to argue that if legal marriage didn't exist the chances of children growing up in unstable homes, with shifting parental relationships, would increase. The resulting legal issues, and the consequent unhappy childhoods, would have a negative effect on society.

Or so I believe. It is an idea that is being tested...

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
One point to consider about the marriage is that establishes a point in time that the commitment began. Anniversary celebrations are a way of honoring that commitment.

Oddly, some shipmates might be quite surprised to discover that this is not a universal. For a time, many years ago, I lived in a country where it was possible for a couple to be married, and universally recognised as such, without there having been a ceremony or a dateable event to mark when they became so.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Vaticanchic
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I think there is deep value and honour in both being a Christian in general and in marriage in particular.

However, neither will lead to a big fat self-satisfied lifestyle if you have any kind of integrity. Christian discipleship is more of a frantic rush through life to the glory beyond. It's following and giving.

Part of my gripe is that I see far more integrity, love and wisdom being lived in purely secular lives than I do among churchgoers. Christians telling people they must live their lives in a certain way for the good of "religion" and "society" is a load of old nonsense.

Churches teaching morality to an often far wiser world is absolutely incredible, because it's not the Gospel. Real discipleship, however, is both attractive and compelling. But that can't be taught - only seen.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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There are of course many ways of looking at this, some already touched on.

But at the phenomenological level (i.e. just looking at the effects) the benefits of marriage to those undertaking it are undoubted. People have been looking at this for years.

Here is a link to a paper co-authored by Andrew Oswald, professor of economics at Warwick University, which covers a lot of the ground. Save yourself a lot of bullshitting time by reading it.

Of course, even this doesn't cover other matters such as the impact on raising children, and similar concerns relating to broader society.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Zach82
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quote:
Part of my gripe is that I see far more integrity, love and wisdom being lived in purely secular lives than I do among churchgoers.
I agree with you up to this point. I praise God that I can be a Christian even though I find I cannot live up to the expectations laid out in the Bible. My integrity has nothing to do with it- only the integrity of Jesus Christ offering his mercy to a lost sinner like me. One does not become baptized because one is Godly. One becomes Godly through baptism.

Likewise, marriage is not a blessing on a Godly union. Marriage makes a union Godly.

[ 29. August 2012, 13:47: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Part of my gripe is that I see far more integrity, love and wisdom being lived in purely secular lives than I do among churchgoers.

A very important observation. That is not at all my experience, but I know that it is the experience of many people.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Felafool
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# 270

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I like the previous poster who said that marriage marks a point of agreement to a commitment that is shared with the other, and with society at large. This is coupled with a change in legal status which isn't available in so called 'common law' relationships. People refer to each other as 'partners', but what is the basis of the pratnership? What happens when the partnership goes pear shaped, or one partner dies? What happens to the 'products' of that partnership? (House, car, furnishings, money, and perhaps children) I have seen enough damge caused by one member of a partnership dying and the survivor(s) discover they have no leagl status. Unless there is a will in force, the posessions go to the next of kin - and may not even be the offspring of the partnership.

I have also seen the fallout from couples who have a joint mortgage on the house and then break up...it's a legal mess.

All of this highlights the fact that unless there is a marriage or other equivalent state, the nature of a partnership is undefined in society, and possibly also within the relationship itself. At some point there may need to be a defined legal status of a non-married partnership. But again, that begs the question...at what point does a relationship need to establish that legal status. Whether it is by a wedding into a marriage, or another ceremny (civil partnership), I do think there needs to be a publicly and socially recognised transition from 'living together' to a 'committed partnership' or whatever you want to call it.

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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.

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passer

Indigo
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Why get married at all?

To be blunt, it was cheaper to get married than to remake our complicated Wills. The Wills were complicated because we have two children, and we had a guardianship arrangement with my oldest friend and his wife in the event of our simultaneous deaths. Unfortunately my friend died, and his wife remarried and emigrated.

My wife was chaperoning on a US choir trip (son was a chorister) and was room-sharing with a lady who was Dean at the time, and she suggested we get married in the Cathedral. This was effected with minimum fuss by the good Canon Chris Smith ten years ago tomorrow. We don't bother to celebrate it and this will be only the second time it's been remembered, and that’s because I just checked to write this! We had been together just over thirty years at that point.

The reasons we got married were purely administrative. It has made not a jot of difference to our relationship, and the children were largely disinterested, as it made no difference to anything from their perspectives. They’ve often mentioned that the majority of their friends have only one current birth-parent, and they value that we are together, not that we are married.

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Garasu
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# 17152

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Originally posted by passer:
quote:
it was cheaper to get married than to remake our complicated Wills
Didn't the marriage annul the wills?

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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Vaticanchic
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# 13869

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Yes, I think it quite simpler was easier to get married than to not in former times.

That's no longer the case and the stock-in-trade answers about "Why marry?" just don't suffice any more. They are based on the premise that "You have to so it, so here's some sugar to make the medicine go down".

You don't have to do it all - and I say this despite (or perhaps because of) holding the indissoluble position on a marriage validly contracted. And I wonder how many trumpeting the respectable view that "wedding is always best" really believe it's indissoluble?!

When it's asked "Why is there so much divorce today?" my mind doesn't go for a falling in standards or lack of commitment. I think better of people than that. No, I think "Well, who is getting married and why?"!

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
On being pressed further, they offered the following insights:
  • Both are strong supporters of same-sex marriage, which is still not legal in Australia. If marriage is not open to everyone, then it has little value to them.
  • Even if same-sex marriage was legal here in Oz, or most places (which I seem to recall is the standard Brangelina require before they tie the knot), they would still not do it. They simply see no logical reason why they should get married.

Is it only me who sees a logical problem with this? If marriage is such a vital institution that it must be extended to all, then there exists a powerful reason to get married. If, OTOH, it is an empty symbol, then there is no compelling reason to worry about extending it at all. Your friends need to make up their minds. It really sounds like they are throwing excuses for themselves against the wall and hoping that one sticks.

--Tom Clune

No logical problem at all. If people want to get married they should be free to. Or not to. The same choice available to my cousin and her partner should be open to everyone. The fact that they choose not to is neither here nor there.

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
it was cheaper to get married than to remake our complicated Wills
Didn't the marriage annul the wills?
Precisely. The wills were in any case un-implementable because of the change of circumstances, so it was easier and cheaper to get married, as the law makes the children beneficiaries by default. Our previous understanding was that as their birth father but unmarried to their mother, my matters financial were complicated.
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869

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I should clarify my previous post - you don't have to get married, but you don't have to shag either. A tendency to do the latter is simply not justification to enter into the former.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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I have several friends who are in relationships that have lasted 20 years or more already, who treat each other seemingly no differently than any decent husband and wife through good times and bad, but who utterly resist "getting married" -- or in the case of the two couples I know best, specifically the woman is determined not to "get married."

In both of those cases the word "marriage" or "married" carries a whale of a load of negative emotional baggage from how they were reared by their parents -- the role limitation enforced on many women in the 50s, the constant "when you are married you won't be able to do that anymore" about pursuing your own interests and growth.

Or what their childhood churches taught, like if "a wife must stay home and not be employed" was drilled into you and you want a career.

A long hard way to deal with this kind of childhood training is to work with a spiritual adviser or perhaps a shrink for how many years or decades at what expense? (Apparently from my local research, trained spiritual advisers through the Catholic and mainline churches who don't charge $75 an hour "suggest a donation" of similar amount.)

An easier solution is to not get married. One can not get married alone, or not get married in a deeply committed lifetime relationship.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
But given that you can do everything that used to be attached to marriage - have sex, live together, raise a family etc. - without being married, my question to you remains - why get married at all?

Most young (and young-ish) people in our circles get married when children are on the cards. I think this is a good thing, it gives a sense of commitment and stability to the new family imo.

With respect, if actually having children is not enough in and of itself to facilitate a sense of commitment, a marriage ceremony is unlikely to foster the same.
YMMV

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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The OP says this couple "see no logical reason" to get married, but also that they are "vehemently opposed" to getting married.

I'd say that the former does not at all explain the latter and there's something else going on that we're not being told. People who merely say "why bother?" are not vehemently opposed. One can be disinterested in doing something without being passionately against doing it. I don't see any point in visiting Gatlinburg, but I'm not vehemently opposed to it.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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barrea
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# 3211

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It may seem old fashioned to say so.but living together without marriage is living in sin. I can understand why unbelievers do it,but can,t understand why so called Christians think that it is OK.

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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The OP says this couple "see no logical reason" to get married, but also that they are "vehemently opposed" to getting married.

I'd say that the former does not at all explain the latter and there's something else going on that we're not being told. People who merely say "why bother?" are not vehemently opposed. One can be disinterested in doing something without being passionately against doing it. I don't see any point in visiting Gatlinburg, but I'm not vehemently opposed to it.

I was picking up similar feelings about the whole thing, Mousethief, as I think tclune was. There are plenty of logical reasons if anyone bothers to enquire. Of course, there may be personal reasons to come to some other decision, but irrespective of that the logical reasons remain. They just haven't been followed.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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lilyswinburne
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# 12934

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As a gay person whose father has been married 5 (!) times, I swore I would never get married, and indeed thought I would never have the opportunity.

However, when gay marriage was made legal in California in 2008, my partner (of 15 years) and I did get married, solely to celebrate this marker in the history of our gay brothers and sisters.

Personally I believe marriage should be abolished. I'm glad to see it languishing among young people.

(I do not wear a ring or refer to my partner as my "wife". We do not have children, or any of the other standard accoutrements of married life. We do take a lot of nice vacations together, though.)

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the long ranger
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# 17109

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quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
Personally I believe marriage should be abolished.

Why?

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Edith
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# 16978

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My understanding was that the church's teaching was the sacrament is conferred on each other by making the commitment. That means that the 'piece of paper' is pretty irrelevant.

But perhaps I'm wrong. I expect Trisagion could put me right.

And, speaking at the mother of a daughter who has just announced her engagement (after being asked for our blessing by her fiancé) I'd be jolly cross if they deprived us all of the opportunity to meet together, share our love and blessings for the future and strengthen the community by a lovely celebration.

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Edith

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
They have been together for eight years, and are committed to each other. [...] They are quite prepared to continue living together, have children together, grow old together, the whole shebang.

Then I'd think they *are* married. The bit they've missed is the wedding.

Maybe not married in the eyes of the church, or the government of whatever country they live in, but still married. Marriage is older than either churches or governments, and doesn't require them to exist.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Mockingale
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# 16599

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

Is it only me who sees a logical problem with this? If marriage is such a vital institution that it must be extended to all, then there exists a powerful reason to get married. If, OTOH, it is an empty symbol, then there is no compelling reason to worry about extending it at all. Your friends need to make up their minds. It really sounds like they are throwing excuses for themselves against the wall and hoping that one sticks.

--Tom Clune

Thank you for saying it better than I could.

Regardless of the fact that divorce is all too common these days, there's still respect for the idea that marriage ought to be a serious lifelong commitment with vows to support each other. It also helps that marriage, as opposed to a private pinky-swear agreement between a long-term couple, comes with some teeth to protect these commitments.

As much as I'm sure the OP's friends love and care for each other, if one of them came down with a horrible illness or got in an accident and were stuck in a wheelchair or in a coma, what real obligation does the other partner have to stick around? If one partner decides to give up a lucrative job to move cross-country with the other partner and the relationship goes sour, what recourse does the partner who gave up have for the share of what otherwise would be marital assets?

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Carex
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# 9643

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Offhand I can't think of many "logical" reasons to get married for most people. There are some advantages (hospital visitation rights, for example), and in some cases the extension of insurance or other benefits to the partner that might not be covered otherwise. Many things can be handled with appropriate legal agreements.

And I've heard many reasons given for NOT getting married: tax rates (one couple figured they would pay $10K more per year before recent changes, and they would rather spend the money taking holidays); pension, alimony or other benefits from a previous spouse that discontinue on remarriage; the cost and bother of having a wedding; the even greater cost and bother of getting divorced, etc. (Though I know of one "almost, but not really marriage" that was more difficult to tidy up when they split than many divorces.)


My experience of deciding to get married had nothing to do with logic or reason, and I suspect that is the case for a number of people. We could have been perfectly happy cohabiting, and except for saying "spouse" rather than "partner", I can't see much that would have been different in our lives, or that of the children. We remember the day we met (29 years ago last month, thank you) as much as our wedding anniversary. I certainly can't think of any time I have made a choice "because I was married" that I wouldn't have done the same if we weren't.

As far as I can remember, our decision to get married (we still can't remember who first brought up the topic) was to make a public statement of our commitment and relationship to our friends: it felt like the right thing to do, not from any moral or sacramental basis, but as a reflection and celebration of our commitment to each other.

So, really, we aren't committed to each other because we got married: we got married because we are committed. And that commitment would be just as strong if we hadn't gotten married.


I certainly understand those who make other choices: there are often strong emotional and/or economic reasons one way or the other. I've seen a lot of relationships, married and otherwise, and being legally married or not doesn't appear to have much bearing on the quality, strength, or longevity of a relationship.

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lilyswinburne
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# 12934

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My understanding of marriage is that it is a legal contract between two people that is all too often unexamined. If marriage as it exists were abolished, perhaps people would feel free to draw up legal contracts that actually fit their needs and expectations. As it is, people swallow the "marriage" contract of their government(s) without considering what they are contractually agreeing to.

For example: Robin Williams' quote about divorce:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/starsandstories/8915998/Robin-Williams-Divorce-is-like-ripping-a-mans-genitals-out-th rough-his-wallet.html

What did he expect when he got married?

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Mockingale
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# 16599

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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
It may seem old fashioned to say so.but living together without marriage is living in sin. I can understand why unbelievers do it,but can,t understand why so called Christians think that it is OK.

What is marriage? As much as Christian liturgies have formalized a ceremony, what they push as marriage is dictated by the state for record keeping. You don't read about any couple in the Bible exchanging rings or vows or any of the liturgical trappings we have now. Adam and Eve didn't have a ceremony.

We used to recognize this as "common law" marriage, which said that even if you didn't have a ceremony or sign a piece of paper in the town registry, if you live together monogamously and hold yourself out as a couple, you're "married."

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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
What is marriage? As much as Christian liturgies have formalized a ceremony, what they push as marriage is dictated by the state for record keeping.
I rather think marriage is instituted by God. State recognition and the legal matters attached to it are all secondary.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Garasu
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# 17152

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Isn't that kind of the point?

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Isn't that kind of the point?
I would hope so, but the general consensus of this thread seems to be that marriage is about the legal issues, with God's approval of unions being taken for granted.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Mockingale
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# 16599

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
What is marriage? As much as Christian liturgies have formalized a ceremony, what they push as marriage is dictated by the state for record keeping.
I rather think marriage is instituted by God. State recognition and the legal matters attached to it are all secondary.
That's what I'm saying. Traditionally you didn't need a marriage license or even a priest to be married. You were married when you settled down with a person with the intent to be in a marriage.
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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
...with God's approval of unions being taken for granted.

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment of the whole thread (though I can see that a few posts tend in that direction). I think there seems to be a recognition that God's approval and the Church's approval are not always the same thing.

My partner and I will celebrate our 11th anniversary on Monday. We consider ourselves married. The State of Georgia does not, and the larger denominations in our state would not. We obviously don't think God has any problem with our marriage.

The state and the larger Christian denominations I mentioned before can go hang--but if marriage does become available in Georgia during our lifetime, we will get married. At that point, it WILL be about the legal rights because that will be the only part that we lack.

I would expect the same to be true of any long-term couple who finally goes after the "piece of paper". By that point, they've long considered themselves married--just as the former slaves in Georgia did when they were finally allowed to marry in front of a judge after the Civil War. They did not consider that they were "unmarried" before, but they understood the value of the legal recognition of their relationships.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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lilyswinburne
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# 12934

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Perhaps those of us referring to legal marriage, which is probably what most people think of when they hear the term "marriage", can use the term "legal marriage", and those referring to marriage blessed by God can use that term.

Just to be clear which we are referring to.

I believe that the OP mentioned the word "legal", so I assume he/she was referring to "legal marriage".

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Said Snags:
quote:
I know a lot more who aren't married because (I suspect) when push comes to shove, they value the psychological 'out' that they get.
IMO, this hits nearer the mark than many are willing to admit.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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