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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Finishing Well
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
Over the last few years, in evangelical circles at least, there has emerged an emphasis on “finishing well”, or as Billy Graham, now in his mid-nineties, in his book Nearing Home, puts it, “growing old with grace”.
There is, of course, an ancient Christian tradition of glorious and triumphant ends to long and useful lives.
Sir Henry Havelock, for example, who passed away on the battlefield just after the Indian Mutiny (or War of Independence) and whose statue is (or was) in Trafalgar Square, declared, “I die happy and contented”, and summoned his son to “see how a Christian can die”.
But then I thnk of my mother, who after a life of vibrant faith, slipped into dementia, and then lay in a foetal position for years with her eyes wide open (but with no indication that she could see – or hear), and died shortly after the doctor suggested to me that they increase her dose of morphine “in case she is in pain” (subtext unspoken).
Or a fiery, legalistic evangelist, who had been a figure of awe and terror to me in my early adolescence, but who finished up in his nineties in some sort of psychotic state, crying out that God had rejected him and he was doomed to damnation.
Or our friend who visited her mother in a nursing home, heard someone in an agitated state in the next room rattling the door and trying to escape, and was told, “That’s ___”, naming a former NT scholar with a global reputation.
Or formerly blameless old women with Alzheimer’s who come out with streams of obscene abuse, or formerly saintly old men who try to molest the nurses.
The fact is that in the West we are all living longer, and therefore we are more likely to end up dying after messy and humiliating periods of senility, completely unconscious of our surroundings.
The chances of an old age lived as a paragon of Christian maturity, followed by a peaceful deathbed transition as we sing hymns surrounded by our adoring family, is increasingly unlikely (and was probably always pretty rare anyway).
Any suggestions for a more realistic and less triumphalist theology of ageing?
[ 07. October 2012, 00:31: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Having come from just such an undignified scenario, ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I know it's very likely I'll wind up one of those ways, with all my neediness and even sinfulness hanging out for all to see. In the meantime, I just try to keep in mind that could happen, and live in such a way that if/when it does happen, people have mercy on me. And when I care for people in that state, I try to keep in mind that this is nothing Christ hasn't redeemed either, and the fact that it's suddenly become apparent says nothing about the person's worth or redemption.
ETA: And anybody who DOES get a glorious death should be aware how unlikely and merciful that blessing is.
[ 07. October 2012, 00:36: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
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# 15405
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Posted
It does all make me wonder whether we have meddled ourselves into this corner. I think medical technology is too often used to keep us going to very little point. It happens at the other end of life too. One of my co-workers has, as her newest client, a baby with only a brain stem.
I once had an adult client like this. He was just under two feet long and had lived in a crib in an institution for all of his 20-odd years. (He was, of course, taken out for feeding, cleaning, bathing and physical stimulation and put through range-of-motion exercises to prevent muscular atrophy.)
There was no evidence that he could see or hear, though he was able to breathe and swallow on his own, and occasionally exhibited spontaneous spasmodic movement and sounds. He was resuscitated several times just after birth, and I often wonder at the wisdom of this; his diagnosis was clear almost from the get-go. His parents, accepting their doctor's advice, never took him home from the hospital, as he was expected to die shortly. He didn't.
I left that agency some years back and don't know if this man-baby is now alive. I still have occasional nightmares where, standing over his crib, I suddenly hear him begging, through some sort of telepathy, "Put me down! Put me down!"
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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LucyP
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# 10476
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Posted
I think there is a disconnect between the theology of anything involving human experience, and real life.
For example: singleness. 1 Corinthians 7 gives a glowing picture of the single person, freed from the burdensome responsibilities of a relationship, as available and active as Paul in doing gospel ministry. Unfortunately, many sincere Christian single people are tired out from their work and home responsibilities and have no more energy for ministry than married people.
Marriage. Many books have been written about the Biblical basis for marriage, implying that a marriage lived in accordance with Biblical principles will be a truly happy one. Unfortunately, many Christian marriages which start out with good intentions don't last the distance.
Helping people in the name of Christ. In theory, life gets better for the helped ones, we feel great about ourselves, because we are obeying the Bible. Unfortunately, real life is a lot messier than this.
I would put a triumphant theology of aging in the same category as the above. There's nothing wrong with having an ideal to aim for, but we need also to have a relationship-based faith that transcends "success".
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The Jewish faith guidance is given here
quote:
Though debate remains regarding prolonging or hastening death, making the dying person comfortable is an important value
- Talmudic law encourages the removal of anything that may bind the dying person’s soul to the body
- For modern Jews, this may authorize a DNR and even removal of life support
I remembered this from interviews with various faith leaders on a religious education programme and from a hospital guidance booklet too. The rabbi talking about it was so humane. Paraphrasing from memory he was saying that if someone is dying then the hospital should not be holding them back, they should be allowed a dignified death and that's what carers should be working towards.
I grew up with a lad who was disabled who had nearly died several times as a very young baby, and my mother used to mutter under her breath "officiously strive to keep alive". Digging to find it now the whole phrase from the poem The Last Decalogue by Arthur Hugh Clough is:
quote:
Honour thy parents; that is, all
From whom advancement may befall:
Thou shalt not kill; but need'st not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Is this about how we avoid officiously keeping people alive?
[ 07. October 2012, 07:21: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
But then I think of my mother, who after a life of vibrant faith, slipped into dementia, and then lay in a foetal position for years with her eyes wide open.
In the light of these examples it looks like theology may be a rather romantic art!
My MIL ended up like this after months of smearing her own excrement around because she no longer knew how to deal with it.
My Mum is suffering dementia and has had a non-life for the last two years. I am grateful that she is serene and comfortable, but she needs to leave now. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Because of this I am utterly convinced that God doesn't intervene in human affairs. S/he wouldn't allow slow, horrible, undignified, painful deaths (often taking many years) which distress all around if s/he did.
I intend to take a peaceful pill long before I'm incapable of the thought or action to do it.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Thou shalt not kill; but need'st not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Is this about how we avoid officiously keeping people alive? [/QUOTE]
No, it is not.
Clough, who had profound religious doubts, was being sarcastic.
His lines have nothing to do with medical ethics.
The point of the OP was not euthanasia and related questions of medical ethics (which I suspect are in Dead Horses) so much as the challenge for Christians of the likelihood of our own and others' protracted but unromantic, unheroic and unedifying exits.
[ 07. October 2012, 08:17: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I wasn't talking about euthanasia but the keeping alive of people when they're older. The people in their 80s who are resuscitated in hospital, even though they have cancer or DNR on their notes.
If you're asking about continuing to maintain your Christian faith through dementia, what were you suggesting? Proper diets and cutting down on drinking as ways of avoiding dementia as you grow older?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
If they are noted as "DNR", shouldn't there be some legal sanctions against the people who disobey this? That might help to keep the officious away.
Adding that, when my father was obviously, even to me, dying, I had to intervene when someone came to take a blood sample, about an hour before he passed.
[ 07. October 2012, 10:11: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I wasn't talking about euthanasia but the keeping alive of people when they're older. The people in their 80s who are resuscitated in hospital, even though they have cancer or DNR on their notes.
Yes, fair enough.
That is certainly part of the issue.
quote:
If you're asking about continuing to maintain your Christian faith through dementia, what were you suggesting? Proper diets and cutting down on drinking as ways of avoiding dementia as you grow older?
I suppose I'm asking about how we cope with the prospect of losing all control over our faith or lack thereof, and how we cope with it in others now.
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
Why would the state of your faith as you descend into, say, Alzheimer's matter? If you had faith before that, then God would not hold any change against you, ISTM.
I think He is quite capable of understanding a disease process.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I suppose I'm asking about how we cope with the prospect of losing all control over our faith or lack thereof, and how we cope with it in others now.
My Mum has always had a gentle, thankful faith. Now, in her dementia, the only words she ever says are 'Thank you'.
Do they come from her deep rooted gratefulness?
Maybe.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
I used to be a chaplain in an elderly care home and would sit and talk to residents and sometimes their relatives. One thing I always said to the relative was that 'Mum' was still there. Her personality, her ability to recognise, speak and understand might not be evident but, deep down, she was still that lovely person they remember and who is known and loved by God. And, if Mum thought they were her long dead sister or even her own father and not recognise them as her daughter or son, they could still be reassured in that she still thought of them as someone loved and special to her.
Outwardly we might get all creased and flabby but as a book title reminded me: There are no wrinkles on the soul'. I would extend that to these situations too - no one's soul forgets or is forgotten.
Paul says 'outwardly' (and this surely includes the physical brain processes) 'we are wasting away, but inwardly we are being renewed.'
This, for me, is the glorious truth of the resurrection - eternal life is not the survival of the soul after the body has been discarded (sometimes even before death occurs), but is the wonderful restoration of the whole person, body, soul and spirit to a more wonderful and fuller life than we could ever imagine.
This is the Christian response to all this: that this life, painful and seemingly pointless, is not all there is but will be changed into a most beautiful thing where we will all be together in the Lord.
Is that not the The Christian Hope? (capitals for emphasis)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Paul says 'outwardly' (and this surely includes the physical brain processes) 'we are wasting away, but inwardly we are being renewed.'
This, for me, is the glorious truth of the resurrection - eternal life is not the survival of the soul after the body has been discarded (sometimes even before death occurs), but is the wonderful restoration of the whole person, body, soul and spirit to a more wonderful and fuller life than we could ever imagine.
This is the Christian response to all this: that this life, painful and seemingly pointless, is not all there is but will be changed into a most beautiful thing where we will all be together in the Lord.
Is that not the The Christian Hope? (capitals for emphasis)
Thanks Mudfrog, I needed to hear that today.
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I spend time with people who suffer from dementia. Everyone is different, and the mental state they are in changes throughout the day and night. I recently spent a couple of hours in coherent conversation with a lady who usually talks nonsense if at all. She remembered names of people and places accurately and spoke in an animated way, smiling and happy. She now remembers that we had a good couple of hours, although she doesn't know how. She remembers how to pray, and joins in with the Lord's prayer when the priest brings Holy Communion to her. Her serenity and contentment is apparent, her Christian faith shining through the fog of her dementia.
Another lady used to play the piano in the church. Her face lights up when hymns are sung.
I know that some patients have aggressive reactions at times, and that this is another aspect of the terrible disease for which we will hopefully one day have a cure. Meanwhile, it's a disease like any other, and the fact that it primarily hits elderly people doesn't mean that the people who suffer from it are of any less value. They too give us the opportunity to exercise compassion and demonstrate the love of God. In that sense, they now serve.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
If they are noted as "DNR", shouldn't there be some legal sanctions against the people who disobey this?
There are. Giving someone a treatment that they have indicated they do not want while in possession of capacity to do so is assault.
In my experience in the UK it is very rare for doctors to think resuscitation should be undertaken despite a patient's wishes. It is usually the other way around (i.e. that people want to be resuscitated should they need it but the doctors think it is hopeless). But that's another story.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Polly
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# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Kaplan Corday posted: Any suggestions for a more realistic and less triumphalist theology of ageing?
I come from a charismatic background and this is the sort of thing that sounds familiar. A triumphalist and romantic understanding of theology which is unbalanced to say the least.
I would suggest that the whole area of Incarnational Theology has some important things to say in the situations you mentioned.
Life isn't always neat and tidy. Not all of us get to finish our time here "well". In addition I think society lets down those who are unable to have a dignified later stage of life.
Perhaps a refocus is much required one that can hold more than one theological model in its hands.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Kaplan Corday posted: Any suggestions for a more realistic and less triumphalist theology of ageing?
I come from a charismatic background and this is the sort of thing that sounds familiar. A triumphalist and romantic understanding of theology which is unbalanced to say the least.
I would suggest that the whole area of Incarnational Theology has some important things to say in the situations you mentioned.
Maybe this is simply an inheritance from the days when sick individuals would normally die at home in their beds, without the aid of modern medical care to keep them going for many years.
I find that Christians are often deeply perturbed by mental illness. Only last week I was talking to an elderly Wesleyan Holiness pastor who seemed quite taken aback by the way in which, as he saw it, dementia seemed to rob good Christian people of their identity. Church members with dementia aren't always visited as often as they should be, perhaps because people don't know how to behave, or if they'll be recognised. My mother can't understand how one of our former pastors, an elderly lady, can be suffering from depression.
We need to get to grips with these illnesses like dementia, Alzheimer's, depression, strokes, etc. especially since a higher and higher proportion of church members are elderly, and they'll need more pastoral care. We need to be better educated.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Polly:
[b] [QUOTE]
I find that Christians are often deeply perturbed by mental illness. Only last week I was talking to an elderly Wesleyan Holiness pastor who seemed quite taken aback by the way in which, as he saw it, dementia seemed to rob good Christian people of their identity. Church members with dementia aren't always visited as often as they should be, perhaps because people don't know how to behave, or if they'll be recognised. My mother can't understand how one of our former pastors, an elderly lady, can be suffering from depression.
We need to get to grips with these illnesses like dementia, Alzheimer's, depression, strokes, etc. especially since a higher and higher proportion of church members are elderly, and they'll need more pastoral care. We need to be better educated.
This is, of course, true; but it's not a problem that originates in Church : O, Christians are not good at mental illness and pastoral care; this is a societal thing.
We don't like death, we don't like mental illness, we don't like pain.
So we avoid it all out of squeamishness and embarrassment.
But as with a great many things, Christians could be leading the way in this, especially as I have posted above, with our positive and healthy Biblical view of personhood, death and resurrection.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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