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Source: (consider it) Thread: Revisiting the Alpha Course
Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Beta says it's standalone, not just a follow up - they suggest it works as a Lent group too.

You've also got initiatives like Beer and Bible studies

You are quite right, I stand corrected. I only assumed it was a follow up course because one NewFrontiers church I know offers the Alpha course, with the Beta course to follow for further study.

One thing to point out is that Beta is different because it is for christians who want to deepen their faith - it isn't for non-christians thinking about converting.

One thing I am curious about - is Beta from the Nicky Gumble HTB stable originally, like Alpha?

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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No.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
There was mention of a Beta course, but maybe that was a spoof.

Perhaps you were thinking of this Beta course?

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Haydee
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Another big (and I mean big) problem is heavy reliance on testimonies. I can remember one bloke that was regularly trotted out to give his Alpha testimony about how he had been living rough and on drugs and then he did an Alpha Course and went back to school and did his A levels and got a first! We later discovered it was made up, at least in part; but that's what you get when you take people of a certain type an emphasise the 'show'. You can guarantee exaggerations. Yet again, it's all part of the new paradigm and cannot be changed.

K.

quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:

Powerful accounts of how becoming a Christian has changed for the better the life experience of a wide variety of people. Since Christianity is by definition a life-changing experience you really can't run a course exploring the Christian faith without being able to answer the question "So if I take the plunge and commit my life to Christ, what might be the practical result?"

Please.... cut down on the testamonies, or at least make them real. 'Life changing' is not necessarily wordly success handed you on a plate. I'd say 'life changing' is about changes in yourself, and may never bring dramatic 'happy ever after' endings. If the traditional was homeless/battled addiction/whatever gave a testamony I'd be far more interested and engaged if they also acknowledged that it is sometimes tough, and that being a Christian doesn't mean life is always strewn with rose petals. Unfortunately it seems we're not allowed to acknowledge that.
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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
There was mention of a Beta course, but maybe that was a spoof.

Perhaps you were thinking of this Beta course?
That was from 1998 - I've no idea whether it is still going, or still has Samantha Fox on page 3!

I noticed the acknowledgement that Alpha was predominantly for the middle classes, I'm wondering if this was the original intention of BETA (Alpha for the working class), but it failed to take off and evolved into what BETA is now?

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Mark Betts

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I found this link about the BETA course:
The Beta Course

As said, it is run alongside the Alpha Course by this church, but there doesn't seem to be any connection with Nicky Gumble/HTB.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Percy B
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Hmm seems I am right in being confused about Beta. One of those seems a spoof the other seems a creation of that particular church for a fellow up - and good luck to them for doing it!

But then our friend google produced a link to:

Beta course

Which seems interesting, but as no one here has mentioned it I wonder if it is actually still a going concern.

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Mary, a priest??

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
With the greatest of respect SusanDoris why exactly did you go? I wouldn't attend a secular humanist gathering just out of interest, as I already know enough about their message to know it isn't for me.

The first time because I had recently joined a Humanist group and because I had happened to meet a friend (ex-colleague teacher) whom i hadn't seen for years an we'd had a lovely chat. She was always on the evangelical side of things. She told me about the Alpha course and asked if I would come. I asked her to check with the pastor first and so that was cleared!

Well, I like to go to meetings about things I don't know enough about, since only then can I know for sure that I was right!!! No, seriously, I love to hear about others' views. [Smile] And there's nothing better than a good challenge to one's opinions.
quote:
EDIT:No, skip that - I should read your link first (and probably fume over it!) [Biased]
[Smile]
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
from SusanDoris' link
'What you mean is I'm a disruptive influence!'

But you WERE a disruptive influence!
[Smile] No! From then on, it was really concentrated discussion. The pastor and his wife and J had never before faced the kind of challenge that I presented and only good feellings were left at the end of each session as we all went away to prepare for the following week! I know they enjoyed it as much as I did. the pastor still says a cheery helo to me when he sees me occasionally.

[ 11. October 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Hmm seems I am right in being confused about Beta. One of those seems a spoof the other seems a creation of that particular church for a fellow up - and good luck to them for doing it!

But then our friend google produced a link to:

Beta course

Which seems interesting, but as no one here has mentioned it I wonder if it is actually still a going concern.

Duh.. I'm so slow sometimes - yes the 1998 link must have been a spoof, but now I'm confused about where the real Beta course came from, or whether currently there is more than one "Beta" course.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
As far as I can get from Alpha blurb, there is no limit on kinds of questions an attendee may bring up. If SusanDoris had gone to the program with the intent to hog all the discussion time, that would be different story. But I doubt that was the case knowing her posting style.

Thank you, that is kind of you to say!And you are right - there was only friendly, but decidedly positive discussion which took place.
quote:
If a Christian program for educating people about the basics of the faith can't deal with polite but assertive questions, the leaders need to go back to the drawing board. Use a format that can handle tough questions but still keep the program moving.
Their main problem is, of course, the lack of the clinching evidence ... which, if available, would dismiss non-belief at a stroke.
quote:
Alpha is mainly meant to evangelize non-Christians, along with giving continuing Christians an opportunity to brush-up up on various aspects of their faith. SusanDoris is a non-Christian. She was interested. As far as they knew she might decide to convert.
I don't think they'd have taken bets on it though, especially as J had known me for about six years when we taught in the same Junior School.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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A.Pilgrim
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I haven't been on an Alpha course myself, but I know someone who has. The general impression I have got is that a lot of what went on was an attempt at emotional manipulation so that those attending had 'an experience' on which to base their decision to get involved in the church or make some sort of commitment or conversion. This was particularly true of the 'Holy Spirit Awayday'.

The person concerned was throughly put off by this, and I can entirely understand - I'm pretty averse to the emotional manipulation that seems to pervade charismatic evangelicalism (especially the 'worship' - i.e. singing [Biased] ). Which is rather a pity, speaking as a non-cessationist myself. I am entirely happy to believe that the Holy Spirit can work in power today, while being unhappy at any emotional manipulation that attempts to produce a pretence of this.

I guess that a lot depends on the church which runs the course, and how much they use 'Alpha' as a brand-name on which to hang their particular approach.
Angus

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Percy B
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Quick aside - what is a non- cessationist.

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

I suppose related to that is does alpha have a particular aim of getting a person to a certain belief point, or is it actually much more open and free thinking than that.

[ 11. October 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: Percy B ]

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Mary, a priest??

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Quick aside - what is a non- cessationist.

A non-cessationist is one who doesn't believe that miracles ceased after the times of the Apostles (1st C). Therefore they will still accept the possibility of miraculous healings, speaking in tongues etc. in the present time.
quote:

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

I don't know about Alpha, but Christianity Explored definitely does.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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daronmedway
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I disapprove of churches which are unthinkingly critical of evangelical doctrine running Alpha Courses. Alpha is an evangelistic course written by evangelicals for use by churches which believe in the doctrines that the course covers.

I would never take a liberal leaning course and crow-bar PSA and charismatic pneumatology into it. Firstly, it would be disrespectful to the people who devised the course and secondly it would be disingenuous to the people attending the course.

Liberal leaning Christians shouldn't run Alpha. They should put in the spade work and devise their own course. If you don't like heat get out of the kitchen.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
I am entirely happy to believe that the Holy Spirit can work in power today, while being unhappy at any emotional manipulation that attempts to produce a pretence of this.

Angus

I agree. The string of worship songs played in a contemporary soft-rock musical style that you get in most broadly evangelical churches isn't charismatic worship.
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Arethosemyfeet
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What's wrong with taking the worthwhile parts of study materials and discarding those we believe are in error? We do the same with music and with liturgy, and with the writings of the saints and heroes of the church. Where HTB have hit upon some good ideas, why shouldn't others use them to spread the Good News, even if not all of their ideas are good? I don't agree with everthing C. S. Lewis wrote, but I don't think it is wrong to use his work when it helps to spread the Gospel.
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Percy B
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I disapprove of churches which are unthinkingly critical of evangelical doctrine running Alpha Courses. Alpha is an evangelistic course written by evangelicals for use by churches which believe in the doctrines that the course covers.

I would never take a liberal leaning course and crow-bar PSA and charismatic pneumatology into it. Firstly, it would be disrespectful to the people who devised the course and secondly it would be disingenuous to the people attending the course.

Liberal leaning Christians shouldn't run Alpha. They should put in the spade work and devise their own course. If you don't like heat get out of the kitchen.

while i can see your particular viewpoint I think that we can learn from one another and exchange good practice, even across theological divides.

Alpha has shown that a specific style of operating and running a christian group has merit. Being clear about what constitutes this style is helpful.

Excuse me - but what is PSA?

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Mary, a priest??

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Yerevan
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quote:
I noticed the acknowledgement that Alpha was predominantly for the middle classes, I'm wondering if this was the original intention of BETA (Alpha for the working class), but it failed to take off and evolved into what BETA is now?
I know this is purely anecdotal, but the two people I know who became Christians via Alpha are both very definitely working class, and are happy members of a very working class congregation and heavily involved in its work with the homeless, ex-offenders etc.
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Yerevan
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quote:
Alpha = charismatic evangelical
Christianity Explored = conservative evangelical (closed)
Emmaus = more liberal (open) evangelical

There's also something called 'Living the Questions', which our local very liberal URC ran. From what I saw of it was completely inaccessible to anyone without a PhD.
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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
What's wrong with taking the worthwhile parts of study materials and discarding those we believe are in error? We do the same with music and with liturgy, and with the writings of the saints and heroes of the church. Where HTB have hit upon some good ideas, why shouldn't others use them to spread the Good News, even if not all of their ideas are good? I don't agree with everthing C. S. Lewis wrote, but I don't think it is wrong to use his work when it helps to spread the Gospel.

Well Nicky Gumble, Sandy Miller et al wrote the books, have the copyright, so it is (rightfully) up to them how their material is used.

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Percy B
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Is that right?

If we use a textbook do we have to use it all, or can we use bits of it that are useful, and ignore the rest. If we do the latter do we need the author's permission.

It maybe, and I do not know, that the godly people of HTB have said the whole pill or no pill. I don't know.

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Mary, a priest??

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Well Nicky Gumble, Sandy Miller et al wrote the books, have the copyright, so it is (rightfully) up to them how their material is used.

Copyright concerns the right to produce copies and derivative works. I can't see how it is relevant in this situation. Nor can I see how a matter of legal technicalities can inform a matter of ethics (or manners?) Would you mind expanding on your point?
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daronmedway
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The theological content of the Alpha Talks for each session of the course are actually quite strictly prescribed. You can look at the talk transcripts here on the Alpha Website. If you download a pdf you will see the following rubrics regarding the theological content:

quote:
P – Personal Story / Testimony that Nicky Gumbel tells in the classic Alpha talk. These may be replaced with a live speaker’s personal story, or the speaker may tell the story about Nicky in the same way Nicky tells stories about others.
S – Is a Story that Nicky tells about someone else (about a friend or a story he heard or read about).
Q – Quotes are key to the talk to emphasise a point and to enable guests to engage and relate to a point made. There is now a way that people can seek permission to omit or replace quotes used in the original talks. A quote should be replaced with something equally effective to maintain the balance of teaching, story, and references to other information sources.

Key quotes will need approval to change (these will be identified by a comment in the left column). Please email publications@alpha.org with your request.

Text left untouched is the standard key message content of the Alpha talk.

Emphasis added.

The point, I think, is this: Alpha is arguably an example of the McDonaldsisation of the Christianity. It is a brand. You can't sell burgers as McDonald's burgers if they're not McDonald's burgers. Similarly, you can't sell your theology as the Alpha Course if the theological content isn't Alpha theological content. Makes sense, I think.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Emphasis added.

The point, I think, is this: Alpha is arguably an example of the McDonaldsisation of the Christianity. It is a brand. You can't sell burgers as McDonald's burgers if they're not McDonald's burgers. Similarly, you can't sell your theology as the Alpha Course if the theological content isn't Alpha theological content. Makes sense, I think.

Ah. My experience is of using the talks as is, and then picking up on areas of dispute with them in discussion afterwards. I can see if you were planning to modify the talks then that would breach copyright. It's worth mentioning that even McDonalds gets adapted to local circumstances - their menu in India is mostly vegetarian, for example.
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Holy Smoke
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Copyright concerns the right to produce copies and derivative works. I can't see how it is relevant in this situation. Nor can I see how a matter of legal technicalities can inform a matter of ethics (or manners?) Would you mind expanding on your point?

You would be abusing the Alpha trademark, which is owned by Gumbel's Alpha organization - I think it's called 'dilution of trademark' or something similar - by turning the course, under the 'Alpha' byline, into some sort of general enquirers course, tailored to your liking, rather than the 'genuine' brand.

[ 12. October 2012, 06:44: Message edited by: Holy Smoke ]

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I disapprove of churches which are unthinkingly critical of evangelical doctrine running Alpha Courses. Alpha is an evangelistic course written by evangelicals for use by churches which believe in the doctrines that the course covers.

I would never take a liberal leaning course and crow-bar PSA and charismatic pneumatology into it. Firstly, it would be disrespectful to the people who devised the course and secondly it would be disingenuous to the people attending the course.

Liberal leaning Christians shouldn't run Alpha. They should put in the spade work and devise their own course. If you don't like heat get out of the kitchen.

while i can see your particular viewpoint I think that we can learn from one another and exchange good practice, even across theological divides.

Alpha has shown that a specific style of operating and running a christian group has merit. Being clear about what constitutes this style is helpful.

Excuse me - but what is PSA?

PSA stands for Penal Substitutionary Atonement. The idea that Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins (Penal) in our place (Substitutionary) to reconcile us to God (Atonement). Liberals, Open Evangelical and some Charismatics don't like PSA.
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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
I noticed the acknowledgement that Alpha was predominantly for the middle classes, I'm wondering if this was the original intention of BETA (Alpha for the working class), but it failed to take off and evolved into what BETA is now?
I know this is purely anecdotal, but the two people I know who became Christians via Alpha are both very definitely working class, and are happy members of a very working class congregation and heavily involved in its work with the homeless, ex-offenders etc.
Yes, I made my comment before I had realised that the 1998 article was a spoof. Sorry about that! - disregard.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Emphasis added.

The point, I think, is this: Alpha is arguably an example of the McDonaldsisation of the Christianity. It is a brand. You can't sell burgers as McDonald's burgers if they're not McDonald's burgers. Similarly, you can't sell your theology as the Alpha Course if the theological content isn't Alpha theological content. Makes sense, I think.

Ah. My experience is of using the talks as is, and then picking up on areas of dispute with them in discussion afterwards.
While a healthy degree of critical engagement with what is preached is a good and healthy thing in a congregation, I would suggest that the negative spiritual formation engendered by your approach would, in the long term, do more harm than good in terms of attitudes to the Ministry of the Word.

[ 12. October 2012, 11:02: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
While a healthy degree of critical engagement with what is preached is a good and healthy thing in a congregation, I would suggest that the negative spiritual formation engendered by your approach would, in the long term, do more harm than good in terms of attitudes to the Ministry of the Word.

I don't consider offering alternative understandings of Christian doctrine to be negative. It's dishonest to imply that there is one version of Christian theology upon which everyone agrees, and to present a shiny homogenous package does a disservice to anyone coming to faith with a brain.
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moonlitdoor
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Nicky Gumbel was fairly explicit when I heard him give the alpha course that his focus was on people becoming Christians, not really on what kind of Christian. He said that it doesn't matter so much from his point of view whether you are Catholic, Anglican, Methodist etc.

In my opinion he avoids some topics where there are obvious doctrinal differences in order to make the course suitable to a wider range of churches. So I don't see why he would mind people discussing whether they agreed with the talks or not.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Gamaliel
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I'm not suggesting that Nicky Gumbel is being disingenuous, moonlitdoor, I believe the guy to be genuinely eirenic - however, the very prescriptive tenor and content of the Alpha Course does indicate that he (and the other developers/initiators of Alpha) are expecting it to produce Christians in their own particular image.

I think daronmedway has a point when he suggests that liberal or non-charismatic evangelical Christians should put in the spade-work to develop their own material if they don't like Alpha - but it is equally true that such churches have taken on the Alpha model in all good faith only to discover that it has a particular agenda.

All the publicity material and blurb about Alpha suggests that it is an introduction to the Christian faith per se - rather than to a particular interpretation of that faith as practised by the HTBs and its look-a-likes.

Of course, any course of this kind is going to take on the characteristics of the particular tradition or grouping in which it was devised. But I suspect that RC or Orthodox examples would be explicit about the fact that they represent an RC or Orthodox 'take' on the issue and not, as Alpha does, purporting to be some kind of neutral, catch-all introduction to Christianity as a whole.

In practice, despite all the brand-guidelines and strictures to the contrary, I suspect that most churches (at least most sensible ones [Biased] ) adapt the Alpha material in some way. It only takes a few disastrous 'Holy Spirit weekends' where people drop out because they think they've walked into a cult to cause organisers to back-pedal a bit.

Part of me wonders, though, whether the rather odd location of the 'Holy Spirit weekend' in the sequence of the course is an attempt to weed-out those unlikely to stay the course by upping the ante over that particular issue. Only people who are susceptible/open to this particular aspect are likely to stick around after that.

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Stephen Hunt, the author mentioned above, describes Alpha as an example of both globalisation and localisation ('glocalisation'). It offers churches a famous brand name, standardisation, and national and an international track record; but those same churches also take the course and tweak it and adapt it. Even if they don't always do so consciously, the fact that churches all have a very different flavour, context, demographic, quality of leadership, etc. let alone theology, means that the course isn't going to be the same in each place.

But Alpha's been around for over 10 years now. No mainstream church can seriously say that the charismatic evangelical implications of Alpha came as a shock to them when they tried to run the course.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
While a healthy degree of critical engagement with what is preached is a good and healthy thing in a congregation, I would suggest that the negative spiritual formation engendered by your approach would, in the long term, do more harm than good in terms of attitudes to the Ministry of the Word.

I don't consider offering alternative understandings of Christian doctrine to be negative. It's dishonest to imply that there is one version of Christian theology upon which everyone agrees, and to present a shiny homogenous package does a disservice to anyone coming to faith with a brain.
If you don't like shiny homogenous packages then Alpha really isn't your thing I'm afraid. There's nothing wrong with theological debate but an evangelistic/catechistical course like Alpha may not be the most pastorally appropriate forum for theological controversy. In my experience Alpha Courses can easily be derailed by Christians who are more interested in showing off their theological sophistication by arguing the toss than humbly helping the unbelievers in the group discover the reality of Christ.

[ 12. October 2012, 15:14: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
If you don't like shiny homogenous packages then Alpha really isn't your thing I'm afraid. There's nothing wrong with theological debate but an evangelistic/catechistical course like Alpha may not be the most pastorally appropriate forum for theological controversy. In my experience Alpha Courses can easily be derailed by Christians who are more interested in showing off their theological sophistication by arguing the toss than humbly helping the unbelievers in the group discover the reality of Christ.

The problem here is that the advertising rhetoric doesn't meet the practice. The given impression is that all views are welcomed and that the course is open to free discussion. Clearly that isn't true. It is instruction in a particular kind of Christianity that one is encouraged to accept or reject.

I'd still love to see an explanation of how the Roman Catholic version of Alpha works. Presumably without the Holy Spirit weekend, no?

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Nope, Alpha in a Catholic context still has the Holy Spirit weekend.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think daronmedway has a point when he suggests that liberal or non-charismatic evangelical Christians should put in the spade-work to develop their own material if they don't like Alpha - but it is equally true that such churches have taken on the Alpha model in all good faith only to discover that it has a particular agenda.

I'm not convinced that many church leaders would be naïve enough not to realise the charismatic emphasis of Alpha. But you're right in saying that other evangelical 'tribes' have created similarly structured evangelistic courses precisely in order to avoid or at least temper the charismatic aspects of Alpha.

quote:
Of course, any course of this kind is going to take on the characteristics of the particular tradition or grouping in which it was devised. But I suspect that RC or Orthodox examples would be explicit about the fact that they represent an RC or Orthodox 'take' on the issue and not, as Alpha does, purporting to be some kind of neutral, catch-all introduction to Christianity as a whole.
I'm fairly confident in saying that Alpha intentionally avoids polemic of any kind in favour of a broad ecumenism based on unity in the Holy Spirit. This is another reason why conservative evangelicals don't like Alpha very much. For example, Alpha produces course material specifically for "Alpha in a Catholic Context" and bases much of its pneumatogy on the writings of Fr Raniero Cantalamesa, an RC preacher to the Papal household.

Finally, I think you are right in discerning a mid-course shift in pastoral intent I the Alpha Couse. This is why I prefer to describe it as an evangelistic/catechistical/experiential course, rather than the purer evangelistic/apologetical/intellectual emphasis of, say, Christianity Explored.

[ 12. October 2012, 15:49: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Nope, Alpha in a Catholic context still has the Holy Spirit weekend.

Indeed. In fact the recommended reading on the Holy Spirit for the whole Alpha Course is by this man.
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Horatio Harumph
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Sorry it has taken a few days for me to delve back into this thread, having originally posted up the top.

Thanks for the responses to my experience with Alpha.

Someone suggested that I could set up my own 'version' or something like that above, as a reasonably liberal and very open Christian.

No thanks. The idea of running something with the aim to 'convert' is not where my heart lays.

I would much prefer to meet people, get to know them, be friends with them, and see what happens.

I saw someone mentioned Christianity Explored. In terms of structure and 'way' its pretty much the same as Alpha, but I did do CE and found it much more informative, helpful and interesting. Much less 'emotional' and more focussed on Christianity 'facts'. Nothing about the Holy Spirit though, which is interesting because although I dislike Alpha's way of 'dealing with the HS' and having 'HS away days' I am not sure I like a complete ignore of it, especially because the people who ran the one I go to, believe in the Trinity. So in theory you cant not have it.

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Horatio Harumph
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

I don't know about Alpha, but Christianity Explored definitely does. [/QB][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]


erm, does it? I've done the CE course quite recently and don't even recall them being mentioned or discussed ... ?

(I keep editing to try and correct the coding issue, but I don't seem to be able to manage it, sorry ...)

[ 13. October 2012, 09:50: Message edited by: Horatio Harumph ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

I don't know about Alpha, but Christianity Explored definitely does.
erm, does it? I've done the CE course quite recently and don't even recall them being mentioned or discussed ... ?

(I keep editing to try and correct the coding issue, but I don't seem to be able to manage it, sorry ...)

The best way to avoid coding errors is to try to remember to preview each post before you submit it. Also try to ensure your quotes align with the people you are quoting from - keep practicing, keep previewing, and I'm sure you'll get it! [Yipee]

Ahem... anyway, I still think Christianity Explored have a definite view on these things, but I'm not surprised they do not mention them in their courses. Are they really the most important things a person should think about when considering conversion?

I expect they would hold fast to a Penal Substitution understanding of Atonement, but I wouldn't expect them to call it that in their discussions.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:

Someone suggested that I could set up my own 'version' or something like that above, as a reasonably liberal and very open Christian.

No thanks. The idea of running something with the aim to 'convert' is not where my heart lays.

I would much prefer to meet people, get to know them, be friends with them, and see what happens.

So you need to set up some kind of discussion group - perhaps an interfaith forum in your area. My Muslim neighbour belongs to an interfaith group. They have discussions and go on outings. This sort of thing has the benefit of bringing the wider community together.

I'm not entirely sure why a church should fund and resource a Christian chat group for purely intellectual purposes, which is what you seem to be proposing. Alpha is meant to be friendly and, hopefully, non-threatening; but it is evangelism. Conversions are unlikely to be instantaneous, but there is certainly a hope that it will start some seekers on a journey. For those who are already Christians, they do it because they want to deepen their faith or grow in biblical knowledge, the better to develop a more mature faith.

Your post does suggest that churches are failing to provide spaces where Christians and seekers can talk about controversial aspects of faith. They see Alpha, because it's so famous, but that's not what they need, and so they're critical of it. In my Methodist circuit there's a series of meetings called Heretics Anonymous, where Methodists and anyone else who comes along can talk about faith issues that are a bit controversial. Perhaps that sort of thing would be worth exploring. Whether your congregation would be liberal enough to allow people to have these discussions in their church is another matter. Maybe you could arrange for it to be based at a local CofE/URC/Methodist church.

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Horatio Harumph
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

Ahem... anyway, I still think Christianity Explored have a definite view on these things, but I'm not surprised they do not mention them in their courses. Are they really the most important things a person should think about when considering conversion?

[/QB]

No. They are not.
Which is why I was not aware of any 'stance' CE holds with regards to these specific things because they were not discussed etc, but if it was something they felt very pertinent to the cause then surely they would have?

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Horatio Harumph
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:

Someone suggested that I could set up my own 'version' or something like that above, as a reasonably liberal and very open Christian.

No thanks. The idea of running something with the aim to 'convert' is not where my heart lays.

I would much prefer to meet people, get to know them, be friends with them, and see what happens.

So you need to set up some kind of discussion group - perhaps an interfaith forum in your area. My Muslim neighbour belongs to an interfaith group. They have discussions and go on outings. This sort of thing has the benefit of bringing the wider community together.

I'm not entirely sure why a church should fund and resource a Christian chat group for purely intellectual purposes, which is what you seem to be proposing. Alpha is meant to be friendly and, hopefully, non-threatening; but it is evangelism. Conversions are unlikely to be instantaneous, but there is certainly a hope that it will start some seekers on a journey. For those who are already Christians, they do it because they want to deepen their faith or grow in biblical knowledge, the better to develop a more mature faith.

Your post does suggest that churches are failing to provide spaces where Christians and seekers can talk about controversial aspects of faith. They see Alpha, because it's so famous, but that's not what they need, and so they're critical of it. In my Methodist circuit there's a series of meetings called Heretics Anonymous, where Methodists and anyone else who comes along can talk about faith issues that are a bit controversial. Perhaps that sort of thing would be worth exploring. Whether your congregation would be liberal enough to allow people to have these discussions in their church is another matter. Maybe you could arrange for it to be based at a local CofE/URC/Methodist church.

Apologies for coming across as 'proposing' something.
That was not my intention!
I am not 'proposing' anything.

I have no interest in setting anything up at all.

However, I dont see why a church shouldn't 'fund' an intellectual discussion group. A group of people getting together in a room is hardly going to cost much to fund is it? So, I dont see the problem there if it was something people wanted/needed.

I also am sorry that I cam across as suggesting the church is failing to provide space for people. That was not my intention either. I don't seem to be aware of the things you are suggesting I have suggested.

I was merely posting with regards to Alpha, my issues with it, my mothers issues with it, and why I dont like it [Smile]

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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:


I have no interest in setting anything up at all.

However, I dont see why a church shouldn't 'fund' an intellectual discussion group. A group of people getting together in a room is hardly going to cost much to fund is it? So, I dont see the problem there if it was something people wanted/needed.

Alpha surely took lots of money, time and manpower to devise, and so would alternatives. As for Heretics Anonymous, I haven't been for a long time so I don't know if there have been any innovations, but I know that at the very least, it takes up a clergyman's time. Discussion groups of whatever kind require someone to develop topics and questions, find good resources and ways of presenting challenging material and interactive sessions. And if materials are used, they have to be paid for; even the cost of photocopies from the net adds up over time. Just hoping that interesting discussions will arise without any preparation is unwise.

I agree that a church should do whatever its members want and are willing to pay for, provided that everyone realises that if members or the minister are putting effort and resources into one thing, they probably have to do less of something else. So churches do need to make a judgement about the expected outcome of any activity, and whether it's going to be worth their while.

Sorry to mention this sort of thing, but I'm a former church steward! I also thought that since you disliked Alpha, you might have some alternative ideas to discuss, but if not, fair enough!

Talking of Alpha, there must be churches out there that have given up on it, having decided the returns were diminishing, and no longer justified the effort involved. It would be interesting to hear from people with that experience.

[ 15. October 2012, 00:20: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Mark Betts

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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

Ahem... anyway, I still think Christianity Explored have a definite view on these things, but I'm not surprised they do not mention them in their courses. Are they really the most important things a person should think about when considering conversion?


No. They are not.
Which is why I was not aware of any 'stance' CE holds with regards to these specific things because they were not discussed etc, but if it was something they felt very pertinent to the cause then surely they would have?

Believe me, if you were to follow the course through and join a concervative evangelical parish, you would hear about these things soon enough, no danger! But CE is primarily concerned, not with converting people with different church traditions to themselves, but reaching out to the unchurched. So what would be the point in discussing different views of atonement, divorce, woman priests, sexuality etc., at this early stage in the participants' spiritual awakening?

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The idea of Alpha seems a pretty good and *can* give people a place to discuss things that they would otherwise not discuss. The course has a predetermined goal though; that you become a charismatic-evangelical and subscribe to all the Christian Culture that comes with it. That's the 'western version'. The Catholic version is much better (I've seen it myself in the Czech Republic) in terms of teaching orthodoxy, but it too has a predetermined outcome: that you become a Catholic.

If you are/know a good theologian, you can fix the doctrinal weirdness in the Alpha course and still use it.

K.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
But CE is primarily concerned, not with converting people with different church traditions to themselves, but reaching out to the unchurched. So what would be the point in discussing different views of atonement, divorce, woman priests, sexuality etc., at this early stage in the participants' spiritual awakening?

Yes but... many of those unchurched have been divorced, are women, LGBT etc. Most, if not all, grapple with issues like guilt.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The idea of Alpha seems a pretty good and *can* give people a place to discuss things that they would otherwise not discuss. The course has a predetermined goal though; that you become a charismatic-evangelical and subscribe to all the Christian Culture that comes with it. That's the 'western version'. The Catholic version is much better (I've seen it myself in the Czech Republic) in terms of teaching orthodoxy, but it too has a predetermined outcome: that you become a Catholic.

It would a pretty weird evangelistic/catechistic course if that wasn't the aim. Also, what evidence do you have that the goal of the Alpha Course is that people "subscribe to all the Christian Culture that comes with it." I'm not saying that isn't in fact the case, I'm just interested in how you might substantiate that claim.

quote:
If you are/know a good theologian, you can fix the doctrinal weirdness in the Alpha course and still use it.
What 'doctrinal weirdness'? As you say, Alpha is unashamedly charismatic-evangelical so surely introducing doctrines that stand in contradiction to that integrity would in fact be even weirder?

[ 15. October 2012, 16:28: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Horatio Harumph
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:


I have no interest in setting anything up at all.

However, I dont see why a church shouldn't 'fund' an intellectual discussion group. A group of people getting together in a room is hardly going to cost much to fund is it? So, I dont see the problem there if it was something people wanted/needed.

Alpha surely took lots of money, time and manpower to devise, and so would alternatives. As for Heretics Anonymous, I haven't been for a long time so I don't know if there have been any innovations, but I know that at the very least, it takes up a clergyman's time. Discussion groups of whatever kind require someone to develop topics and questions, find good resources and ways of presenting challenging material and interactive sessions. And if materials are used, they have to be paid for; even the cost of photocopies from the net adds up over time. Just hoping that interesting discussions will arise without any preparation is unwise.

I agree that a church should do whatever its members want and are willing to pay for, provided that everyone realises that if members or the minister are putting effort and resources into one thing, they probably have to do less of something else. So churches do need to make a judgement about the expected outcome of any activity, and whether it's going to be worth their while.

Sorry to mention this sort of thing, but I'm a former church steward! I also thought that since you disliked Alpha, you might have some alternative ideas to discuss, but if not, fair enough!

Talking of Alpha, there must be churches out there that have given up on it, having decided the returns were diminishing, and no longer justified the effort involved. It would be interesting to hear from people with that experience.

I think people getting together in a room, or even someone's house to 'discuss' issues/topics/a verse or whatever would cost very little.

Sure once you go down the route of using materials/courses or even creating your own you get into the 'time' territory etc.
I appreciate it cost a lot to devise Alpha.
I would love to see group led topics as opposed to having 'someone to develop topics and questions, find good resources and ways of presenting challenging material'.
A group that has an interest will create its own topics and conversation. Perhaps you would need one or two people with strong biblical knowledge or views that represented whichever denomination or faith you are within the confines of to put across their view .. perhaps.

But actually, so far, something so rigid and structured has not worked for me, where as the best places of learning, especially about faith have been those 'thrown in a room' moments, or the one to one friendships I have had with Christians who have taught me no end.

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Curiosity killed ...

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There are ways of having those discussion groups without going to Alpha. The local CofE church runs
  1. annual Lent groups based around varying materials. The usual costs aren't high - mostly the cost of the books. The groups are held on church property or in homes, usually the home of someone who wants to be in to child mind.
  2. Beer and Bible is a bible study in a pub, to try and make it higher profile, there's at least one other monthly bible group that reads and discusses a book of the bible over a term or so.
  3. a spiritual book club that meets every 6 weeks or so to discuss a book that's spiritual in content - it might be theological, it might be from a different religion.
  4. Emmaus or other group that explores Christianity;
  5. another long running nurture group that explores the Bible and spirituality for exploring Christians - that's written internally and runs for a year, different group each year;
  6. monthly evening service with speakers exploring ideas - that needs reviving - how the way art depicts the Bible shows the way theology develops, more about what the church building shows, loads of topics;
  7. various internally written explorations of aspects of Christianity - the evidence for the crucifixion / resurrection / ascension was one, but there've been others.


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