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Source: (consider it) Thread: Authority of the Bible
Latchkey Kid
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What do people and Churches mean by "The Authority of the Bible"?

Although a google search on the phrase returns 86 million results, most of what I have looked at assume it exists, but do not define it.

It sounds like misleadingly loose terminology to me. Authority is exercised by people, not by text. When we say that e.g a text book is an authority on a subject we mean that the authors have written what is accepted at that point in time by the community that understands the subject matter. But it is always a person who makes a judgment in a situation, even if they use the book.

In the judicial system it is not the written law that has authority, but the appointed judges and magistrates.

So when I hear some Christians talk about the authority of the Bible, I think they are labouring under a misconception.

(Now this reasoning does not apply to the authority of a Church, as generally there are people in authority; and today it is your choice whether to put yourself under that authority).

So is there any more to the authority of the Bible than it is my/my church's/my theologian's/my saint's/ interpretation and I am trying to con(vince) you that it is also God's?

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Anglican_Brat
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To me, the Bible's authority is answered by writing that we read the Gospel of John in church, not Danielle Steel novels.

As in, the Bible has an authority in the Christian church in that it is the principal text in study, reflection, and discernment, especially when it comes to understanding Jesus Christ.

This is why in the orthodox Christian tradition, we do not by, in large, countenance arguments made on the basis of the Book of Mormon or the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ. These books are not "bad" per se, it is that they are not on the same level as the Christian canon.

Now ultimately, one might say that the Bible has no authority alone, that ultimately it is derived from the Church (for simplicity's sake, we can call it the Catholic view). The Protestant view, again for simplicity's sake, would be that the Church itself is prone to error, and that Scripture, being a record of primitive catholicity, is there as a check mark against grievous error or rank heresy.

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the long ranger
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Lots of things. For churches which hold to inerrancy, this implies that the bible is the supreme guide for belief and conduct to the extent that if believe and conduct comes from somewhere else (say tradition), it should not be trusted. Because the bible is the Word of God given to us.

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Kwesi
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Latchkey Kid
quote:
Authority is exercised by people, not by text.


I think this is the critical point. Amongst fundamentalists, in particular, the struggle over Biblical Authority is a struggle for power over who should determine what the bible says than in upholding the word of God.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Authority is exercised by people, not by text.

It's not so simple. For the individual who makes their choices on the basis of what the bible says, then it IS the bible that is exercising the authority. What they would claim is that they are seeking the will of God through the bible. If they then join together in a community which actually exercises authority - to the point of excluding dissenters - as opposed to the average church today that lets anyone come along for the ride - THEN it's a matter of people exercising authority.

Of course in practice most people merely fall in line with the dominant beliefs of the culture of which they are a part, in which their church leaders may play a significant role; but the Protestant ideal - which is probably heretical, but that's another story - is for each person to be convinced in their own mind as a result of engaging with God with the help of the bible.

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Stejjie
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I know I'm biased, but I quite like the way it's put in the Baptist Union's Declaration of Principle:

quote:
That our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, is the sole and absolute authority in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures...
As one commentary on this says, that seems to have things in the right order: the Bible has authority, not in its own right, but because it reveals Christ, who is the final authority, and His laws. So, in theory, we're not "people of the book"; or rather, we are, but only in the sense that the Book reveals to us the One to whom we truly belong.

So it does have authority, and in a sense we "grant" it that authority by looking to it to see Jesus and to allow Him to guide us as Christians and churches. Or so ITSM, in any case.

Oh, and just to prove I don't always come here to argue with ES [Razz] :

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
but the Protestant ideal - which is probably heretical, but that's another story - is for each person to be convinced in their own mind as a result of engaging with God with the help of the bible.

^
This - though I'd add that we should do this in churches as well as individuals.

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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The Revolutionist
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Yes, authority is exercised by people - or in this case, God. "The authority of the Bible" is a shorthand for the Bible bearing God's authority - it is inspired by him; it reveals his will and all that's necessary for salvation. So as Christians, we submit to God's authority by believing and obeying the Bible.

Judges and magistrates have authority to make judgements about the application of the law in particular situations, but they don't make the law. Their judgements are legitimate in so far as they are consistent with the law as written.

Similarly, the Church's teaching is authoritative as long as it matches up to what God has said. The Church doesn't have autonomous authority, but derivative authority as far as it is proclaiming God's authority.

[ 12. October 2012, 08:57: Message edited by: The Revolutionist ]

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Enoch
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I think Stejjie and the Baptists are right on this, and that one should be anxious when people seem to be giving the physical text an independent authority of its own.

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Latchkey Kid
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Stejjie,

It's good you know that you are biased, not all of us do, but being biased makes you no different from the rest of us.

But saying that "Jesus Christ ... as revealed in the scriptures" is the authority has the same problem for me, as it is people who decide how He speaks in the scriptures. In any case, the scriptures are not pronouncements on faith and practice, but narratives/stories about how people have experienced God or God in Jesus Christ.

This is why I would also find ES's position problematical. What the Bible says to people varies enormously from person to person so that the Bible can support just about any and opposing positions. (The Bible says to me that the notion of heresy is heretical [Big Grin] [Eek!] . Well, not to be entertained. But that is another thread.)

Re: longranger post. What "the Word of God" means is still up for grabs. Again, narratives are hard to use as a guide for belief and conduct. And I would say that some of them try and create a set of rules from it. IMO they lose the power of the Bible in trying to construct a set of rules.

I quite like Anglican_Brat's perspective, but it results in "authority" having a different meaning from the commonly accepted meaning of "authority". So is it being used metaphorically rather than literally? I don't usually see it explained that way.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
Yes, authority is exercised by people - or in this case, God. "The authority of the Bible" is a shorthand for the Bible bearing God's authority - it is inspired by him; it reveals his will and all that's necessary for salvation. So as Christians, we submit to God's authority by believing and obeying the Bible.

I recall my systematics lecturer asking "Please cash that for me". And it seems the right question to ask here. How does it reveal His will in any particular situation? How do we believe and obey the Bible? I thought we believed in God /Jesus. Where does Jesus ever say to obey the Bible? I don't think the Bible tells us to believe and obey the Bible.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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ThunderBunk

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Of itself, the bible has no capacity to enforce anything unless it's thrown at someone.

Which is a particular way of making a point. The authority of the bible is constructed by a culture in that culture's own image to enforce its authority. This culture usually comes in the form of a particular denomination, congregation or person who wishes to wield power whilst appearing to serve an external authority. As it is a text, or to be more precise, a collection of texts, the bible cannot dispute any given claim, and if people are convinced that they cannot dispute claims made under the authority of the bible, then inerrancy is achieved, not for the bible but for the people making claims under its banner.

[ 12. October 2012, 09:32: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]

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Jolly Jape
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Jewish people talk often about wrestling with the scriptures, or at least, with God through the scriptures, and I think they have it just about right. It's not so much the written text that has authority, though there is a discussion to be had there, but rather that the engagement with God that occurs when we "wrestle" with the text brings revelation through the process (cf Jacob's ladder and many of the Psalms)

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
For churches which hold to inerrancy, this implies that the bible is the supreme guide for belief and conduct to the extent that if believe and conduct comes from somewhere else (say tradition), it should not be trusted. Because the bible is the Word of God given to us.

The mistake many self-described inerrantists seem to make is to believe their interpretation is the only valid one. Obviously, we have a certain level of faith in our own interpretation of the Bible (or we're in the process of changing our interpretations!). But this doesn't mean anyone who disagrees with us is a liberal, Bible-denying heretic, as sometimes seems to be argued (mostly not on SoF, I'm relieved to say).
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Amongst fundamentalists, in particular, the struggle over Biblical Authority is a struggle for power over who should determine what the bible says than in upholding the word of God.

Indeed. Who has the power and the right to say 'This is what the Bible teaches'?

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Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Stejjie,

It's good you know that you are biased, not all of us do, but being biased makes you no different from the rest of us.

But saying that "Jesus Christ ... as revealed in the scriptures" is the authority has the same problem for me, as it is people who decide how He speaks in the scriptures. In any case, the scriptures are not pronouncements on faith and practice, but narratives/stories about how people have experienced God or God in Jesus Christ.

That's a fair point, which it makes it intriguing for me that the passage quoted comes in the context of what is, essentially, a defence of congregationalism as the means for Baptists organising our church life. I think, to a certain extent, you're right and I think the Declaration of principle agrees with you. It's saying, basically, that it's up to each church to decide how Christ is revealed in the specific circumstances and situation it finds itself in.

Now, there's limits to this: the BU is keen to avoid the word "independence" in describing this, preferring the word "autonomy"; meaning, I think, that while Baptist churches do have this right, they shouldn't exercise it in isolation from other Baptist churches (or other Christian denominations). There are also the key phrases that Jesus Christ is "Lord and Saviour" and "God manifest in the flesh" - anything that doesn't "sit" within these parameters would not, I would imagine (and hope), be welcomed.

But within these limits, I think the text I quoted is saying that what is revealed about Christ, within the context of the local church seeking Christ's will for its future, is dynamic. It's revealed through the wrestling that Jolly Jape talks about; wrestling with God and Scripture and with our own situation.

(Incidentally, I would hope it does take into account that, as you say, Scripture is more about stories of experiences about God than about "pronouncements on faith and practice" - but I'm, not sure this is always the case...)

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:

Re: longranger post. What "the Word of God" means is still up for grabs. Again, narratives are hard to use as a guide for belief and conduct. And I would say that some of them try and create a set of rules from it. IMO they lose the power of the Bible in trying to construct a set of rules.

It is not my belief, but it is undeniable that a lot of people think of the bible as the word of God.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Latchkey Kid
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Longranger. I understood that it was not your viewpoint. Perhaps I should have made that clearer in my response.

[ 12. October 2012, 10:22: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
For churches which hold to inerrancy, this implies that the bible is the supreme guide for belief and conduct to the extent that if believe and conduct comes from somewhere else (say tradition), it should not be trusted. Because the bible is the Word of God given to us.

This is what I believe. But with a twist.

The Bible is the Word of God. Its author is God Himself, who worked with the people who wrote the Bible in various ways, from outright dictation to simply guiding their thoughts and memories, to produce and preserve what we have today.

The twist is that, according to New Church theology, the Bible has an outer meaning and an inner meaning. The literal stories and their teachings may be right or wrong, but everything works together to serve a coherent, consistent, logical and rational inner meaning.

The literal text is written according to the prejudices, misperceptions, and limited understanding of those who actualy wrote the books. But every story has a meaning and was written in a way that can be systematically interpreted.

The biblical formula is the same as the formula that Jesus used to speak and then interpret parables. The characters, events, and places, describe our spiritual lives. Every story is about God, heaven, and the life of love and faith that leads to heaven.

The crux of New Church theology is that it provides a key for interpreting every word in the Bible and showing how it fits into the coherent, rational theology that Jesus taught and that is taught, even in the literal sense, by the Bible when looked at as a whole.

So I believe in the authority of the Bible, and that it is the Word of God. But I also believe that the literal meaning is not necessarily accurate, that the literal meaning is often contradictory, that the literal meaning often presents a God who cannot be loved or trusted, that the literal meaning is often so obscure as to be meaningless, even teaching things that are actually wrong. All that is remedied in the inner meaning, a meaning that is consistent with the words of Jesus and with the Biblical message as a whole.

To me this solves the issues associated with the authority of the Bible. It is fabulous. But I'm aware that this will not satisfy everyone, and of course it could all be mistaken.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
So is there any more to the authority of the Bible than it is my/my church's/my theologian's/my saint's/ interpretation and I am trying to con(vince) you that it is also God's?

No more or less imv, if authority means a definitive imposition. Jesus referred to the scriptures, showing us that the writings give us important connections with God. The Church has the same importance for the same reasons. I'd happily jettison some of the doctrine I have issues with, but by wrestling with what's challenging as well as being affirmed by what's comforting, in prayer, we grow in faith and draw ever closer to God.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
So is there any more to the authority of the Bible than it is my/my church's/my theologian's/my saint's/ interpretation and I am trying to con(vince) you that it is also God's?

No more or less imv, if authority means a definitive imposition.
I'd say the same. We decide for ourselves what we believe. No one can tell us what we must believe.

Of course if we decide for ourselves that we believe in a certain system of belief, it follows that we have an internal obligation to some level of consistency.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Latchkey Kid
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Raptor Eye and Freddy.

I am quite happy with what what you say, but it is individualistic (though perhaps it could be extended to a community of believers) and sounds to me more like the authority of the Holy Spirit speaking to us through the Bible (as He may through other things in our lives).

It is very far from the way the "Authority of the Bible" is usually invoked (in my experience) as something like a trump card in a debate or making a judgment. But perhaps the stereotypes from books and movies figure too large in my estimation of its use in the general culture.

On another note:
In the OT it is the judges and kings who are seen as exercising the authority. I note that Solomon is more revered for his wisdom in applying the Torah than because he knew the 'laws' of the Torah.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
It is very far from the way the "Authority of the Bible" is usually invoked (in my experience) as something like a trump card in a debate or making a judgment.

I would be happy to invoke it that way if I thought that I was in a group that shared my assumptions. In reality I think that it really is such a trump card.

But without the assumption of shared belief there is no point. No matter how fervently a person may believe in the legitimacy of science it would be rude to try to impose that belief on people who don't share it.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I would be happy to invoke it that way if I thought that I was in a group that shared my assumptions. In reality I think that it really is such a trump card.

Have you ever done that?

If the group has shared assumptions, would not the other(s) just be invoking their own (shared) assumption and deciding how to interpret and balance the weights of the varying and contrasting viewpoints and stories that can be found in the Bible?

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I would be happy to invoke it that way if I thought that I was in a group that shared my assumptions. In reality I think that it really is such a trump card.

Have you ever done that?
I do it all the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
If the group has shared assumptions, would not the other(s) just be invoking their own (shared) assumption and deciding how to interpret and balance the weights of the varying and contrasting viewpoints and stories that can be found in the Bible?

Yes, this is how discussions work.

But with shared assumptions the discussions get somewhere.

This is how it works in the scientific community, for example. There can be enormous disagreement about things that aren't well understood, or about the meaning of specific observations. However, working with a shared concept about what establishes something as a reliable "truth", new information actually does settle arguments over time.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Latchkey Kid
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Freddy,

If I may be permitted to reflect on your analogy of scientific authority with biblical authority, it seems that just as the common underestanding in adverts for products being scientifically proven remedies, and the result of one experiment from which the researchers posit a theory being turned by the media into "scientific study shows that ...", your much more subtle understanding of the authority of the bible is debased by in its popular understanding and presentation, not only because it is used as an attempt to control.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
If I may be permitted to reflect on your analogy of scientific authority with biblical authority, it seems that just as the common underestanding in adverts for products being scientifically proven remedies, and the result of one experiment from which the researchers posit a theory being turned by the media into "scientific study shows that ...", your much more subtle understanding of the authority of the bible is debased by in its popular understanding and presentation, not only because it is used as an attempt to control.

I think you are right in the short term. But when there is enough information, enough experiments, enough observations, many arguments are settled over time.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Oscar the Grouch

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Can I suggest here that people read Marcus Borg's "Reading the Bible again for the first time" - especially the opening chapters. His exploration of how we should see the "authority" of the Bible is sane and sensible.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Latchkey Kid
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OtG

Perhaps you give some indication of what he says.
Is there a link?

N.T.Wright's lecture How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? (that I have discovered since opening this thread) examines and evaluates different views of what is meant by this. He is an evangelical who is critical of common evangelical views. He thinks that many approaches which think they have a high view of the Bible actually debase the Bible, and thinks that it is the authority of God which is important, rather than the authority of the Bible.

At first sight it is surprising that a self-declared Evangelical has this view; however, in my experience, Evangelical scholarship is usually much more 'liberal' than the positions espoused by the more vocal in the churches or their statements of faith/belief.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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Borg's comment is this:
quote:
Foundational to reading the Bible is a decision about how to see its origin. Does it come from God, or is it a human product? Are we to see and read what it says as a divine product or as a human product?
He goes on:
quote:
I see the Bible as a human response to God. Rather than seeing God as scripture’s ultimate author, I see the Bible as the response of these two ancient communities (ancient Israel and the early Christians) to their experience of God. As such, it contains their stories of God, their perceptions of God’s character and will, their prayers to and praise of God, their perceptions of the human condition and the paths of deliverance, their religious and ethical practices, and their understanding of what faithfulness to God involves.
He also outlines two metaphors that he finds important. First of all, the Bible is
quote:
a lens through which we see God (although some people think it’s important to believe in the lens.)

Secondly, he describes the Bible as a Sacrament of the Sacred, likening it to the bread and wine of the Eucharist:
quote:
... to use a common eucharistic phrase, we affirm that “in, with, and under” these manifestly human products of bread and wine, Christ becomes present to us. So also “in, with, and under” the human words of the Bible, the Spirit of God addresses us.
I haven't really done justice to his arguments and how he then tackles the specific question of the Bible's "authority". But I have to say that when I read this chapter of his book recently, it really connected with where I was and helped me to put a lot of things into perspective.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Revolutionist
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# 4578

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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
Yes, authority is exercised by people - or in this case, God. "The authority of the Bible" is a shorthand for the Bible bearing God's authority - it is inspired by him; it reveals his will and all that's necessary for salvation. So as Christians, we submit to God's authority by believing and obeying the Bible.

I recall my systematics lecturer asking "Please cash that for me". And it seems the right question to ask here. How does it reveal His will in any particular situation? How do we believe and obey the Bible? I thought we believed in God /Jesus. Where does Jesus ever say to obey the Bible? I don't think the Bible tells us to believe and obey the Bible.
I agree entirely that the primary object of our obedience is God/Jesus. But how do we know what it means to obey God apart from the Bible?

Although there are a variety of other sources of knowledge that inform our understanding - tradition, reason, experience, etc. - ISTM that the primary source for knowing God and his will for us is through the Bible. We obey God's authority rather than the authority of the Bible per se, but the Bible is the primary way in which God's authority is mediated to us.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
OtG

Perhaps you give some indication of what he says.
Is there a link?

N.T.Wright's lecture How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? (that I have discovered since opening this thread) examines and evaluates different views of what is meant by this. He is an evangelical who is critical of common evangelical views. He thinks that many approaches which think they have a high view of the Bible actually debase the Bible, and thinks that it is the authority of God which is important, rather than the authority of the Bible.

At first sight it is surprising that a self-declared Evangelical has this view; however, in my experience, Evangelical scholarship is usually much more 'liberal' than the positions espoused by the more vocal in the churches or their statements of faith/belief.

Thanks very much for that link.

I am no fan of Tom Wright - maybe I ought to be because there is nothing that I, as a non-evangelical, can disagree with in his lecture.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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