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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is it open season on evangelicals?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This may have come up before, so please forgive me if I'm resurrecting a dead horse.
Kaplan Corday has asserted that evangelicals are the pariahs of the Ship and that they get criticised and dismissed in ways that would not be tolerated in the case of other Christian traditions.
I can be as guilty as stereotyping particular forms of evangelical as anyone else, but having come up through that tradition myself, I'd like to think that any remarks here (however cynical) are those of a 'critical friend' rather than someone who is antagonistic towards evangelicals simply because they are evangelicals ...
I'm definitely post-evangelical now (if not pre-catholic ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) but evangelicalism remains within my spiritual DNA and I am profoundly grateful for aspects of it. I wouldn't be a practising Christian at all if it hadn't been for evangelicalism.
I'm wondering whether there is any substance in Kaplan's concern. By and large - apart from some inveterately uber-liberal types who seem unable to accept that anything good can come out of evangelicalism - I don't think that the evos come in for undue stick here. If they get any stick at all it's probably because they deserve it to some extent and also because anything that makes particular truth claims or which represents a large and very vocal constituency is going to come in for criticism.
If I ever criticise any aspect of evangelicalism my intention (believe it or not) is always one of trying to correct imbalances or bring about a greater degree of nuance - rather than to stop people being evangelicals in the first place. Heaven forfend that I would even attempt the latter.
Am I alone in thinking that Kaplan has overstated his case?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's probably true that some groups within Evangelicalism, for example 'Sydney Anglicans', get both barrels from a sizeable number of people on the Ship. I've never felt such an attiude commonly expressed against broader evangelicalism - at least, no more than other sections of the Church can get it.
To be honest, from where I sit (placing myself firmly within Evangelicalism) a lot of the time we're our own worst enemy. I've previously said that we (that is evangelicals) have made doing and saying things that make others go "please, don't let people think I'm with them" into an art form.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I think this is just about visibility and variety. There are many different kinds of evangelical, some of which do not even recognise others who self-define as evangelicals as Christian. Even (sometimes especially) when their beliefs are very close.
This then means that there is conflict - both with the evangelicals and between evangelicals and others. Often this is simply about a lack of commonality in definitions.
I've not been around for a long time on this board, but there have been discussions about charismatics and inerrancy and leadership and so on. All of these can broadly be seen as being 'evangelical', but there is considerable disagreement within evangelicalism about what these terms mean.
I guess I've seen less attacks on Roman Catholicism than I've seen elsewhere, but I wouldn't describe Ship of Fools as having 'open season' on any particular group of evangelicals or any other belief in particular.
Everyone seems to get attacked fairly vigorously! Evangelicalism just seems to appear more because there are (maybe) more nuances we are aware of in Evangelicalism than other kinds of Christianity.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Lord have mercy Gamaliel.
Please, please find a different tune to play on occasion.
Thus spake the wisdom of Evensong ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
For an ignoramus like me, please describe what's included under the label 'evangelical', and what are the grey areas.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...I'm definitely post-evangelical now (if not pre-catholic ) but evangelicalism remains within my spiritual DNA and I am profoundly grateful for aspects of it. I wouldn't be a practising Christian at all if it hadn't been for evangelicalism...
Would anyone be a practising Christian now if it hadn't been for evangelicalism? Your self-definition as 'post-evangelical' seems to suggest you consider yourself a customer of all the previous evangelists stretching right back to John of that title. Whose mission is it to ensure that there will be practising Christians in the future?
Btw, that's a question from a non-Christian whose own religion has been historically hampered by a pervasive assumption, contrary to the explicit message of its founder, that people are somehow just supposed to 'get it' all by themselves.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Would anyone be a practising Christian now if it hadn't been for evangelicalism? Your self-definition as 'post-evangelical' seems to suggest you consider yourself a customer of all the previous evangelists stretching right back to John of that title. Whose mission is it to ensure that there will be practising Christians in the future?
Btw, that's a question from a non-Christian whose own religion has been historically hampered by a pervasive assumption, contrary to the explicit message of its founder, that people are somehow just supposed to 'get it' all by themselves.
I think you're missing the distinction between "evangelist" and "evangelical". All Christians are meant to be evangelists, evangelical is rather different, at least in modern usage.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I think anyone is fair game on the ship. Catholics have been ripped to shreds on many threads, as have the many brands of evangelicalism. The evangelicals that catch it the most are those that push the "flashier" side of evangelicalism, i.e. healings, speaking in tongues and other miracles. Some from this branch also tend to be rather judgmental about their fellow Christians to the point of questioning whether they are Christians. I've even been asked "are you sure you're a Christian?" as I don't follow the party line on a few issues (gay marriage, political alignment, etc.). Mainline protestants have also caught the rare lashing being referred to as "dead or dying on the vine". Instead of feeling like everyone is against you, be prepared to explain and defend your beliefs.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
When the Ship is at its best I think the antipathy tends to crystalise around certain doctrines common to evangelicalism. However, when evangelical proponents of those doctrines present them assertively the antipathy can get quite personal quite quickly. This is doubly the case when evangelicals come across in an aggressively doctrinaire manner. I know that I am often guilty of this.
However, there are some Shipmates who do appear to have a particular and aggressive dislike for evangelical shipmates and not just the evangelicalism of those shipmates.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
I, Too, thought Kaplan was overstating his case. The truth is, we evangelicals (for so I self describe) are a fractious bunch, and I have certainly had more board conflicts with other evos than I have ever had from Catholics, Orthodoxen, or even liberals ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I also think there is a powerful trend amongst evangelicals that interprets any criticism as "persecution".
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Evangelicals are picked on? Really? As a mostly lurker, ISTM that when criticized, the Evos put upon, the Catholics scream persecution, and American Episcopalians are put out for being made the whipping dogs as the root cause of the troubles in the Anglican Communion. And all have whined about being picked on from time to time. Do Orthodoxen catch flack too? I haven't paid enough attention to notice. I haven't seen much said about the Reformed one way or the other. Does that cover the spectrum? Comments are by turns fair, snarky, cynical, angry, mean, or over the top, YMMV as to which is which of course. Evos get dumped on for being too conservative, Episcopalians get dumped on for being too liberal. I think pretty much everyone is selective about what they decide offends them. The ship seems pretty equal opportunity to me.
[ 12. October 2012, 14:51: Message edited by: Wilfried ]
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
When I see in the guidelines of Purgatory that all points of view are welcome, I always
think of the Animal Farm line about all animals being equals but some being more equal
than others.
Generally people with points of view which are not that popular here are accepted as long as they are mild and polite, while those with popular views can get away with more ranting or an aggressive style.
I mean accepted by posters generally, rather than by the hosting.
I would say this applies most of all to political conservatives but to some extent it applies to evangelicals and Roman Catholics too. DaronMedway refers to his own style, and while it is a bit aggressive for me, I think it would
pass unremarked by most people if his subject matter were different.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Do Orthodoxen catch flack too? I haven't paid enough attention to notice.
Not nearly enough. We feel unloved.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Evangelicals are picked on? Really? As a mostly lurker, ISTM that when criticized, the Evos put upon, the Catholics scream persecution, and American Episcopalians are put out for being made the whipping dogs as the root cause of the troubles in the Anglican Communion. And all have whined about being picked on from time to time. Do Orthodoxen catch flack too? I haven't paid enough attention to notice. I haven't seen much said about the Reformed one way or the other. Does that cover the spectrum? Comments are by turns fair, snarky, cynical, angry, mean, or over the top, YMMV as to which is which of course. Evos get dumped on for being too conservative, Episcopalians get dumped on for being too liberal. I think pretty much everyone is selective about what they decide offends them. The ship seems pretty equal opportunity to me.
I am a quaker, someone called me a drabbie in hell and have the mainstream Christian groups deny my self-identification as a Christian because I am non-trinitarian - validate my victimhood !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
I'm a charismatic evangelical and I wouldn't say that I have felt particularly persecuted although some people here are so up themselves about charismatics and one is unable to have a civilised discussion but I'm thick skinned enough just to ignore it.
Some evangelicals do have a this sense that they are always in the persecuted minority though and as said previously some are their own worst enemy at times and need to get a new drum to bang.
Perhaps there is a certain amount of snobbery towards evangelicals on this forum but I've seen evangelicals be snobs outside of this community.
The point is haven't we all got better things to do??
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
I do find it strange how many people stick around despite being convinced that they are being persecuted. I guess it's like one of those marriages where each party is convinced that the marriage could be great if only the other one would change.
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Do Orthodoxen catch flack too? I haven't paid enough attention to notice.
Not nearly enough. We feel unloved.
Precisely. The Orthodox, the Quakers, the Reformed, and everyone else can complain about overlooked, neglected, and ignored. See? Everyone is equally unhappy. As the for the atheists, they're just trying to be provocative.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I hope ken and Pete173 don't feel singled out if I use them as examples. They are both of them unapologetic about their evangelical convictions, but don't appear as if they live in an evangelical bubble unrelated to the world that the rest of us inhabit. Indeed sometimes a comment from one of them will bring me up sharp, just as I have decided that I agree with them on 100% of matters, by a theological dissonance which reminds me that we have quite different perspectives on the Christian faith. But we are still able to relate as fellow-Christians, as IRL we are members of the same Church.
I don't always get that feeling from some evangelicals on the Ship, but there are many more like ken and Pete.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
There are times when some points of evangelical practice are criticised - the recent stuff about the Alpha Course, for example.
We also get roundly jumped on for PSA of course.
And there are other aspects of it that give me the impression that some of the more liturgical churches think we are a bit 'lite' and not very intelligent.
But hey, I'd rather be in a lively Born-Again Filled with the Spirit assembly than a draughty, dusty ol' church with people dressed in the Tudor style singing in a dead language! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I don't really think that way and I do feel loved here on the Ship - even though I'm a non-sacramental member of the Separated Brethren'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Do Orthodoxen catch flack too? I haven't paid enough attention to notice.
Not nearly enough. We feel unloved.
Beating up on beardy weirdy mystics always seems to get bad press for some reason. And, anyway, persecuting people for beliefs that even they don't understand and can't explain is too much like hard work.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Well, as a lady priest (divisive schismatic feminist), Anglican (those wishy-washy heretic prod-catholic wannabees), and a liberal (scriptural mix-and-mixer products of debauched westernized political correctness), it often feels that Anglicanism in some of its manifestations is the easy target on the Ship.
But I don't think any group is unfairly targeted. The biggest thing that posters here generally seem to get personally het up over is posting styles rather than a person's theology.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
persecuting people for beliefs that even they don't understand and can't explain is too much like hard work.
Nah. The current level of brainless, facile Muslim-bashing in this country gives lie to this.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks folks - some interesting points from all parts of the spectrum here ...
I think posting style has got a lot to do with it, which is why some evos seem to get more or less stick than others - although I will concede that moonlitdoor, Mudfrog and Daronmedway make valid points about the way that particular evangelical doctrines can be like a red-rag to a bull here.
Personally, Orthophile though I can be, I feel that the Orthodox get less stick than they deserve - probably, as daronmedway suggests, because the rest of us don't always understand them and they don't always understand themselves ...
A certain amount of exotica goes a long way towards getting you a get-out-of-jail-free-card. I've always been struck by how little stick the Swedenborgians get here compared to what they'd get if they were posting elsewhere.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I consider myself to be evangelical and on other (more Evangelical) boards I have been called a heretic, apostate, and not a Christian. At least that does not happen here. Those sort of Evangelicals do not post here; or they post in a way more suited to the culture of this board, or they do not last here.
But perhaps I am evangelical and not an Evangelical.
I know I am not an Anglican, or a card carrying member of any denomination, so I am not sure what label others would pin on me.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I'd be interested to know whether you're all talking about people who fall under this label:
wiki definition whether or not you call yourselves 'evangelical'.
I'd also like to know why anyone wants to put themselves into a category of Christian. Isn't this divisive in itself?
Just wondering.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Crśsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
But perhaps I am evangelical and not an Evangelical.
Maybe you're Schrödinger's Evangelical and in quantum flux between the two states. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I consider myself to be evangelical and on other (more Evangelical) boards I have been called a heretic, apostate, and not a Christian. At least that does not happen here. Those sort of Evangelicals do not post here; or they post in a way more suited to the culture of this board, or they do not last here.
But perhaps I am evangelical and not an Evangelical.
I know I am not an Anglican, or a card carrying member of any denomination, so I am not sure what label others would pin on mine.
I think there are brittle people, moreso on the web than in real life, who hold to the most narrow version of any form of belief. In my experience on the web there are Catholics who all but call the Pope heretical (I certainly am by their reckoning, for actively practicing intercommunion and being supportive of change in at least two ceased-to-be equines). It isn't a surprise to me that that extremes in the Evangelical part of the Christian world on the web want to call out those that they consider lesser than themselves.
There really should be an internet law along the lines of the much quoted Godwins, where extremes of opinion drive out more moderate views on many boards (thankfully not here).
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm self-identified evangelical; never felt I was targeted for that reason. Gamaliel observed once that I was very "nuanced" in my views, which I took to mean that I'd thought about them. That's true.
I suppose it is true that self-identifying as an evangelical does paint a kind of target on ourselves, but I'm not backward in coming forward if someone assumes my beliefs and understandings incorrectly, based on a label. Far better, particularly on this forum, not to assume that Shipmates' beliefs can be neatly packaged and dismissed. Or that people's beliefs aren't affected by experience and reflection.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I'd also like to know why anyone wants to put themselves into a category of Christian. Isn't this divisive in itself?
With people who see themselves as Christian I am a Christian. It is my tradition and I do not have enough years to embrace all traditions.
With Jews, Moslems, New Agers etc I am another of God's children. With atheists and people who are anti-religion I am a member of the human race where each one's life has meaning and value.
I try to respect life, but I am not quite up to treating all sentient beings the same, though I am a member of a wildlife rescue organisation.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye
I'd also like to know why anyone wants to put themselves into a category of Christian. Isn't this divisive in itself?
It's no more divisive than an atheist putting himself in a specific category of 'atheist' that says that atheism involves not believing in God / gods. If I say that I am an 'atheist' and insist that an eternal, personal, intelligent creator of the universe exists, then I can well imagine that I would not be recognised as such. Would those who reject my claim be guilty of divisiveness? Of course not! It's all about words actually having meaning. If I said that a stone should actually qualify as a flower, could a critic of my definition be considered divisive? Ridiculous.
But it seems the word 'Christian' can mean anything and nothing, and anyone who insists that it should have meaning is regarded as a divisive bigot. This kind of criticism is just so patronising and demeaning - not to mention absurd.
As far as I am concerned, anyone who does not believe in God is not a Christian, by definition. If that makes me divisive, then so be it.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I've had to rewrite this post several times as I don't want to sound like an overcritical whinger but it is something I would like to get off my chest and now is as good a time as any.
I've just returned to the Ship after a 4 year gap. I left because I felt unwelcome here as someone who attended a New Frontiers church. It seemed to me like I was wearing a great big bullseye whenever I came into Purgatory. Feelings are very subjective things and not a good measurement of reality but I, never the less, felt bullied and it was enough to make me leave. I also felt angry that people appeared to be seeing my church and not me. And that is ironic as my previous church was the famous Anglican parish church of Trumpington - I know very well that no church is perfect.
I don't claim my experience is the experience of all new Frontiers types here, I can merely explain how I felt. It might just mean I happen to be a particularly sensitive person (I am) and that purgatory isn't the place for me. If that is true, it is better I come to terms with it and deal with the issue.
Now I lurk mainly in Heaven instead.
[ 12. October 2012, 22:07: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
But it seems the word 'Christian' can mean anything and nothing, and anyone who insists that it should have meaning is regarded as a divisive bigot. This kind of criticism is just so patronising and demeaning - not to mention absurd.
As far as I am concerned, anyone who does not believe in God is not a Christian, by definition. If that makes me divisive, then so be it.
I think that it's a good thing to call ourselves Christian if that's how we see ourselves. Whether it means anything or nothing must surely be subjective. I didn't suggest that anyone who considers it to have meaning is a divisive bigot, nor did I mean to be patronising.
It seems to me that to categorise ourselves as 'evangelical', 'charismatic', 'conservative' etc may be divisive. It doesn't seem to help us to bond together as fellow Christians, does it?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Heavenly Anarchist.
Recognise that there are some people who get their jollies from criticising others. The internet attracts them. I hope that there are enough of us not like that.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Personally, Orthophile though I can be, I feel that the Orthodox get less stick than they deserve - probably, as daronmedway suggests, because the rest of us don't always understand them and they don't always understand themselves ...
Sounds like a hippie encounter group here.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I'd also like to know why anyone wants to put themselves into a category of Christian. Isn't this divisive in itself?
Sometimes truth can be divisive. I call myself a Christian because I consider myself a Christian, based on the details of my baptism, my beliefs, my church membership, and my desire to continue being a Christian. If somebody else wants to divide themselves from me because of that, screw 'em. I yam what I yam and don't apologize for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I left because I felt unwelcome here as someone who attended a New Frontiers church.
Jeepers I didn't even know what that was until I went right now and looked it up. If I made you feel unwelcome I apologize, and it must have been for some other reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It seems to me that to categorise ourselves as 'evangelical', 'charismatic', 'conservative' etc may be divisive. It doesn't seem to help us to bond together as fellow Christians, does it?
No but it can help us to understand the broad brush-stroke outlines of someone's theology without having to reinvent the wheel every time we talk about it. Category words (aka nouns) are a necessary part of language.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Do Orthodoxen catch flack too? I haven't paid enough attention to notice.
Not nearly enough. We feel unloved.
Precisely. The Orthodox, the Quakers, the Reformed, and everyone else can complain about overlooked, neglected, and ignored. See? Everyone is equally unhappy. As the for the atheists, they're just trying to be provocative.
Don't we have a Circus thread for this?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Heavenly Anarchist.
Recognise that there are some people who get their jollies from criticising others. The internet attracts them. I hope that there are enough of us not like that.
True, but I think there may be other factors involved as well. Purgatory is a place where you have to expect that someone will disagree with your views. Those who are used to a more homogeneous religious culture may not be comfortable with that, or may take it as a personal attack (especially when there seems to be a lot of emotion behind it - which sometimes is a clue that it is a sensitive issue to the other person.)
It may be that some evangelical groups are less used to having people question their beliefs. This seems like the cause of a lot of the ITTWACW comments: if all the Christians that you meet regularly hold the same view of something, it can come as shock to find that many others don't.
It isn't always comfortable to have to defend your views all the time: some handle it well, others don't. We have a lot of Shipmates and lurkers who take a great interest in reading the discussions, but rarely feel contributing to them.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Apologies for taking so long to respond, but to quote Prince Philip, I have been busier than a blue-arsed fly.
The only reason I raised the topic was because I was so amazed at Percy B’s diffidence, in another post, about criticizing evangelicals.
It was the first time I had encountered such an attitude on the Ship.
To say that I or other evangelicals are “persecuted” would be a gross trivialization of that term, given the very real and tragic persecution that millions of Christians suffer globally, and besides, no-one is making us participate on the Ship – a popular saying about heat and kitchens (galleys?) springs to mind.
Having made those qualifications, I would still assert that evangelicals cop more stick here than members of other traditions, and I don’t believe that it is because of our theology, which is just as scriptural, credal, historical, coherent and defensible as any other.
Someone used the term snobbery, and I suspect that this, along with a smidgen of jealousy, goes some way to explaining the phenomenon.
Evangelicalism, particularly in its charo/penty forms, has held its own or expanded in recent decades while other traditions, particularly liberal mainstream Protestantism, are in terminal decline.
Because the common people hear it gladly, it has become just a teensy bit c-o-m-m-o-n in its aesthetics, and very pragmatic, demotic and flexible in how it does church.
The result is a Christian equivalent of secular downmarket mass culture, in which vast numbers of believers can’t tell their pyx from their thurible.
FWIW, I share some of the misgivings – I prefer Gregorian chant to Hillsong, and icons to chintzy banners – but am not convinced that in the end it really matters.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
I was musing only yesterday that to many on the Ship "evangelical" is synonymous with "narrow minded bigot" and that is really who cops the most flack here.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
@Gamaliel:
My story is similar to yours. I once confessed that I sometimes google search news articles on "Church of England" and "Evangelical" looking for malicious content for me to gloat over.
However, like you, I owe my christianity to evangelical anglicanism. My priest says I should be thankful rather than critical, and that I simply "outgrew" it.
I don't think it's just evangelicalism which gets more than it's fair share of criticism. RCs, independants, NFs, all take plenty of flack on the ship. Perhaps this is because of the overbearing intellectual liberal bias on board the ship.
Nowadays, I tend to let the liberals (and atheists) have the last word if topics are just going round and round in circles and getting more and more aggressive. It seems to keep them happy! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I've had to rewrite this post several times as I don't want to sound like an overcritical whinger but it is something I would like to get off my chest and now is as good a time as any.
I've just returned to the Ship after a 4 year gap. I left because I felt unwelcome here as someone who attended a New Frontiers church. It seemed to me like I was wearing a great big bullseye whenever I came into Purgatory. Feelings are very subjective things and not a good measurement of reality but I, never the less, felt bullied and it was enough to make me leave. I also felt angry that people appeared to be seeing my church and not me. And that is ironic as my previous church was the famous Anglican parish church of Trumpington - I know very well that no church is perfect.
I don't claim my experience is the experience of all new Frontiers types here, I can merely explain how I felt. It might just mean I happen to be a particularly sensitive person (I am) and that purgatory isn't the place for me. If that is true, it is better I come to terms with it and deal with the issue.
Now I lurk mainly in Heaven instead.
Please don't leave again Heavenly Anarchist. As you've seen, a few NF threads come up now and again, where the vast majority of posts are negative and critical - but they are not much fun if we never hear from the other side.
Just because NF-bashers always seem to get the last word (with plenty of other NF-bashers agreeing with them) doesn't mean that posts from yourself and a few other NF-ers won't get read or considered. Get involved!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Heavenly Anarchist - New Frontiers has come in for a lot of stick on these boards. I'm sorry if you've felt intimidated by that or if anything I've ever said here has offended or upset you.
Part of me thinks, though, that an organisation like NFI which, rightly or wrongly, sees itself as having a particular role and importance in the overall scheme of things, should man up and be prepared to take the stick it invites upon itself. Although I can understand how individuals within such an organisation could find that wearing - I know, because I spent 18 years in a similar church setting.
@Kaplan, I think there is something in the liberal smugness that you highlight but it's easy to drift to the other extreme and adopt a position of inverted snobbery. I've seen Pentecostals do this time without number - effectively making a virtue out of their own ignorance as it were.
I might be tempted to go further and suggest that it is also something of an Australian trait ... but that might be pushing things a bit too far ...
On balance, I think there is an element of 'establishment' snobbery towards independent groups such as the Brethren, the Sally Army and the Baptists too, to a certain extent. Baptist ministers I know have encountered it from Anglicans here in the UK.
But that's not the total picture.
It strikes me, forgive me if I'm wrong, that there is a certain defensiveness about your position - 'They don't like us, they must either be snobs or they must be jealous of our numerical success and our ability to connect with the common man ...'
Bollocks.
That certainly doesn't describe my own reactions/views towards evangelicalism - and like you, I'd prefer icons to cheesy banners and Gregorian chants to Hillsongs any day of the work, so does that make the pair of us snobs?
I s'pose ultimately the aspects that I would tend to diss within evangelicalism all have their parallels within the other traditions and I'd diss them there too were I more familiar with them.
I'm just not as familiar with the subcultures and practices of the other traditions to sit in judgement upon them. So to that extent it probably makes evangelicalism an easier target for me than any of the other traditions we could mention.
@Mark Betts - thanks for the confession. I'm not being holier than thou but I've never gone surfing the web seeking out the dirt on any particular tradition that I've moved on from or am familiar with. I sound-off here on the Ship (hence Evensong's jibe further up thread) but in real life I'm just as friendly and eirenic towards evangelicals of all stripes as I am to any other form of Christian.
I also suspect that some of the attitudes towards evangelicalism expressed on these boards come from 'Pond differences' and the way that evangelicals and fundamentalists are conflated in some parts of the world - when the two are not coterminous elsewhere.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Having made those qualifications, I would still assert that evangelicals cop more stick here than members of other traditions, and I don’t believe that it is because of our theology, which is just as scriptural, credal, historical, coherent and defensible as any other.
Someone used the term snobbery, and I suspect that this, along with a smidgen of jealousy, goes some way to explaining the phenomenon.
Possibly. I would suggest that the major reason though is that much, or even most, self-consciously 'Christian' debate on the internet and elsewhere (at least in anglophone circles) tends to be dominated by evangelicals. Nowt wrong with that, and if the rest of us choose to stay outside of it we can't criticise. But it does mean that the Ship is one of the few places, outside denominational safe spaces, where Christians of other traditions are in the majority.
The C of E theoretically should be another of those arenas where 'liberal', 'catholic' and 'evangelical' Christians come together and share. It does't always work like that, mainly I suppose because [a] laypeople tend to stick to their monocultural parishes, and [b] clergy, even or perhaps especially if they are friends on a social level, rarely get down to the nitty-gritty of discussing thorny issues of disagreement. It's the same with the wider ecumenical movement: we have moved beyond mutual hostility to politeness but rarely much further.
The anonymity (insofar as people wish it) here on the Ship makes for rather more vigorous debate. I don't know that evangelicals come in for any more flak than any other constituency; it's just that they are in a minority (albeit a very significant one), rather like Catholics and Orthodox (who are also hammered from time to time). Anglicans, despite being a tiny minority of Christians world-wide, tend to be over-represented here so maybe we can sometimes act as if the Ship belongs to us.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I've had to rewrite this post several times as I don't want to sound like an overcritical whinger but it is something I would like to get off my chest and now is as good a time as any.
I've just returned to the Ship after a 4 year gap. I left because I felt unwelcome here as someone who attended a New Frontiers church. It seemed to me like I was wearing a great big bullseye whenever I came into Purgatory. Feelings are very subjective things and not a good measurement of reality but I, never the less, felt bullied and it was enough to make me leave. I also felt angry that people appeared to be seeing my church and not me. And that is ironic as my previous church was the famous Anglican parish church of Trumpington - I know very well that no church is perfect.
I don't claim my experience is the experience of all new Frontiers types here, I can merely explain how I felt. It might just mean I happen to be a particularly sensitive person (I am) and that purgatory isn't the place for me. If that is true, it is better I come to terms with it and deal with the issue.
Now I lurk mainly in Heaven instead.
I had a similar experience when I came on board a year or ago. Some of my spats with Gamaliel, for example, must have made entertaining reading. We're good pals now. I think to think, as far as NF goes, I got some credit for not shying away from its weaknesses whilst being robust in defending where it's strong. I've recently left NFI and have seen something of both the best and the worst of it. The Cambridge crowd always struck me as being on the more sensible end of the movement and I've some good friends there I'm sure we both know.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Someone used the term snobbery, and I suspect that this, along with a smidgen of jealousy, goes some way to explaining the phenomenon.
Not being snarky KC, but I think there is an irregular verb in there somewhere.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Spliters.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It seems to me that to categorise ourselves as 'evangelical', 'charismatic', 'conservative' etc may be divisive. It doesn't seem to help us to bond together as fellow Christians, does it?
No but it can help us to understand the broad brush-stroke outlines of someone's theology without having to reinvent the wheel every time we talk about it. Category words (aka nouns) are a necessary part of language.
I can accept this, thank you, but it seems to me that it may also foster prejudices and bring on assumptions based on the label. Every single one of us is different, and nobody fits into a box. If someone thinks of me as a liberal, they may take it as read that I hold a raft of views without engaging with me to find out.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Speak for yourself, Ramarius ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Seriously, I think we are good pals now, but I wonder whether that would have been the case if you weren't already at the more reflective end of the NFI spectrum - and therefore, arguably, already on the way out of it ... ?
Looking back, I think I was on a trajectory that was to lead me beyond 'bog-standard evangelicalism' (if there is such a thing) long before I realised it myself.
But then, the aspects I appreciate about evangelicalism the most are those that it shares in common with traditional creedal Christianity wheresoever it may be found. That isn't to suggest that evangelicalism doesn't have any valuable distinctives in its own right - of course it does.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
but I wonder whether that would have been the case if you weren't already at the more reflective end of the NFI spectrum...
I expect that for most posters that's true - i.e. that if they aren't at the more reflective end of their spectrum then discussion in a very diverse forum isn't going to go very well.
And I expect most traditions find that the people who are the most reflective are most likely to be on their way out, so to speak.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...I'm definitely post-evangelical now (if not pre-catholic ) but evangelicalism remains within my spiritual DNA and I am profoundly grateful for aspects of it. I wouldn't be a practising Christian at all if it hadn't been for evangelicalism...
Would anyone be a practising Christian now if it hadn't been for evangelicalism?
Yes I think there would be far more Christians if it wasn't for evangelicals of all stripes. The "bible bashers" as we called them when I was a non-believer are universally hated by atheists. Fear of these arrogant judges kept me in the wilderness for about 30 years of my life, and I think that's probably true of the majority of modern non-believers. The message that "this is true because it says so in the bible" is a guaranteed turn-off for almost everyone who doesn't understand what the bible does say.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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