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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is the appeal of Christianity?
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shadeson
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# 17132
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Posted
Suppose teaching about what happens after death is taken out of its theology, what then is the appeal of Christianity to the ‘man in the street’?
Can anyone explain this? I have had to ditch my conventional understanding because I can no longer hold a set of ‘beliefs’ as a ticket to a happy heaven.
I am also convinced that the Church will have to do the same.
Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Without those teachings Christianity is nothing.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Are there any teachings about what happens after death?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Macrina
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# 8807
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Posted
I think the problem with doing that is you then end up with something very like humanism which is very nice as an attractive system of morals but which has no actual appeal beyond that.
My answer to you personally, if I am understanding you correctly, is that I too found myself in a place where the theology no longer made intellectual sense to me and I rejected it. It took me a further six years to set foot in a church again when I finally began to suspect that I'd missed the point.
For me, Christianity isn't about accepting a set of logical propostions as factually true in order to obtain a desired outcome. It's about a distinctive and profound understanding of and relationship with the divine.
You absolutely cannot scrub Christianity clean of anything irrational and still call the thing you have at the end Christianity. The whole point of Christ was that he defied the rational.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
For a religion supposedly all about the next life, its effect on this life seems to have been salutary for most of us.
I suppose the Resurrection is important because it "proves" something, but it is interesting to note that after Christ arose, He showed Himself mostly to those who already loved Him, to whom He didn't need to prove anything to earn their devotion.
[ 12. October 2012, 20:14: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Sorry (again)... How is it "all about the next life"?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
Well I suppose you could argue it is something to believe in. Did the first hearers of the Christ understand his words to be about eternal life - or something else? An open question, in my view.
I suspect many saw him as a prophet in the line of John the Baptist and so it would be natural to see his words as offering a practical belief system for behaviour in the here-and-now. The question for you is then whether it makes any sense to read the bible in this way and whether as a moral code it has any weight for you. Others have lived it in this way - including Jefferson, Tolstoy and Gandhi. Maybe you should see what they made of it.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
If you are called you follow.
If it's not your heart's desire then Christianity isn't for you. But be aware that other treasures don't last and don't give the same sense of satisfaction.
It's a hard road and not for everyone. You have to take up a cross.
Don't think of becoming a Christian unless you are prepared to pay the cost.
[ 12. October 2012, 20:30: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Well I suppose you could argue it is something to believe in. Did the first hearers of the Christ understand his words to be about eternal life - or something else? An open question, in my view.
I suspect many saw him as a prophet in the line of John the Baptist and so it would be natural to see his words as offering a practical belief system for behaviour in the here-and-now. The question for you is then whether it makes any sense to read the bible in this way and whether as a moral code it has any weight for you. Others have lived it in this way - including Jefferson, Tolstoy and Gandhi. Maybe you should see what they made of it.
Not seeing the issue. Sorry. No doubt my stupidity...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Sorry (again)... How is it "all about the next life"?
It's not that it's all about the next life. The next life isn't actually mentioned that much.
But apart from a focus on enduring goodness, with a point and a purpose to the whole system, Christianity falls flat. It is just humanism.
So subtracting the eternal from the equation vitiates the whole purpose of Christianity.
Certainly love, faith, and a life of service for the sake of our friends, family and society in general are the true ingredients of Christianity. They could theoretically be there and reform the world with no mention of anything eternal or even supernatural.
Without an eternal God and an eternal purpose for the human race, though, I don't believe it is meaningful.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I am not a Christian because I find Christianity to be appealing. I am a Christian because I think it is true.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Suppose teaching about what happens after death is taken out of its theology, what then is the appeal of Christianity to the ‘man in the street’?
There is none. Without the concept of eternal reward/punishment Christianity is just one more over-earnest pollyanna telling everyone to play nice.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
This seems a very intellectual approach to me. I grew up in a totally atheist family, and had a Catholic girl-friend when I was 16, and went with her to Mass, for the first time in my life, and it totally blew me away. Well, I've spend the last 50 years trying to understand that, and still being blown away by the Eucharist. So I don't see it in such intellectual terms as the thread-setter. I don't know whether it's 'true' or not, but it sure moves me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I'm surprised at the replies so far which imply that without the promise of an afterlife Christianity would be just a beneficial lifestyle choice.
Surely Christianity is about a living relationship with God through Christ in this life as well as after death? If taking away the latter, the former still applies.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Surely Christianity is about a living relationship with God through Christ in this life as well as after death? If taking away the latter, the former still applies.
This. Christianity is about this life. I do the things I do in this life because I love God and believe his word is true. I hope for the next life, but even if the next life were removed, I'd still live in relationship with God in this life.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Certainly love, faith, and a life of service for the sake of our friends, family and society in general are the true ingredients of Christianity. They could theoretically be there and reform the world with no mention of anything eternal or even supernatural.
Without an eternal God and an eternal purpose for the human race, though, I don't believe it is meaningful.
Why is an eternal purpose important? And whatever that purpose is, what happens when it has been achieved? Does anyone say, "Well that was great but what did achieving it achieve?. Why was it so important?". Or is it just another case of "It's a mystery. You have to believe and wait for eternity to find out."
Are you saying that feeding the hungry, protecting the widows and orphans etc are pointless without eternal life?
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Are you saying that feeding the hungry, protecting the widows and orphans etc are pointless without eternal life?
Not at all. I'm just saying that Christianity is about enduring value. If it doesn't really endure, and if we will all just disappear in a few years, the value is pale by comparison.
It is not worthless or pointless, it is just less appealing than the idea of these things contributing to an eternal kingdom that we all take part in - not just now but forever.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
What is the appeal of Christianity?
Is that really the right question?
What about...
What is the appeal of Christ?
I am not interested in Christianity, in the sense of an ideology to which I must conform. That is a naturalistic idea. I am far more interested in the reality, of which Christianity is just a pale - and often confused - reflection.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Suppose teaching about what happens after death is taken out of its theology, what then is the appeal of Christianity to the ‘man in the street’?
You are loved.
You. Yes you. Not you in a vague generalized sense like we might say "I love cats" or "I love hamburgers." You. Personally.
Are. Not were back in some past when you were still cute and innocent. Not will be in some vague future if you get it right. Are. Now.
Loved. Period. No conditions, nothing you did to deserve it, nothing you can do to change it. No limitations. Just loved.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Without those teachings Christianity is nothing.
Really? What about 'My God i love thee, not because i hope for heaven thereby.'?
Yes, that's important. It's not that it's all about the next life. The next life isn't actually mentioned that much.
But apart from a focus on enduring goodness, with a point and a purpose to the whole system, Christianity falls flat. It is just humanism.
So subtracting the eternal from the equation vitiates the whole purpose of Christianity.
Certainly love, faith, and a life of service for the sake of our friends, family and society in general are the true ingredients of Christianity. They could theoretically be there and reform the world with no mention of anything eternal or even supernatural.
Without an eternal God and an eternal purpose for the human race, though, I don't believe it is meaningful.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Unless you are LGBT - saith the Anglican Communion and the RCC.
LGBTs are not loved. They are going to Hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200.
Never confuse what an institutional church teaches with what God thinks. Sometimes the churches get it right. Sometimes they don't. Our primary focus needs to be God, then figure out what if any secondary role the institutional church reasonably might have in our lives.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But apart from a focus on enduring goodness, with a point and a purpose to the whole system, Christianity falls flat. It is just humanism.
So subtracting the eternal from the equation vitiates the whole purpose of Christianity.
Certainly love, faith, and a life of service for the sake of our friends, family and society in general are the true ingredients of Christianity. They could theoretically be there and reform the world with no mention of anything eternal or even supernatural.
Without an eternal God and an eternal purpose for the human race, though, I don't believe it is meaningful.
I don't agree that it falls flat and has no purpose without the idea of eternity. God remains who God is, whether or not we see one of God's traits as eternal. What if God's purpose for us is to help build the Kingdom of God in the world now, rather than it being something to happen in the future?
Do you really think that the Kingdom equates to nothing more than a 'humanist' society in which people look out for each other and love their families?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Unless you are LGBT - saith the Anglican Communion and the RCC.
LGBTs are not loved. They are going to Hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200.
Bollocks...and you know it.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I guess I see it in terms of the progress of humanity as a whole. We are learning, as a species, to be more Christ like, and with each generation, we become just a bit more so.
So in a sense, yes, it is just a moral code, but so what? I honestly don't see why that would be a problem, provided we don't put the focus on ourselves, either as a species or as individuals.
I don't see the point of Christianity as being about accepting Christ in and of itself, but as becoming more Christ like. If we were able to do that without ever having heard of Jesus, then great.
I suppose one might see it not as individual salvation at the end af a single human life, but as corporate salvation over time.
Mind, you, I DO personally believe in individual salvation, but I don't see that this is so central to Christianity that the faith looses all meaning without it.
Also, though, what Mousethief said...it's not about "appeal" it's about belief.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Unless you are LGBT - saith the Anglican Communion and the RCC.
LGBTs are not loved. They are going to Hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200.
Bollocks...and you know it.
No - just listen to the testimonies of many LGBTs about the frosty receptions they have received, sometimes enforced exorcisms, often refusal of Holy Communion.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Unless you are LGBT - saith the Anglican Communion and the RCC.
LGBTs are not loved. They are going to Hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200.
Bollocks...and you know it.
No - just listen to the testimonies of many LGBTs about the frosty receptions they have received, sometimes enforced exorcisms, often refusal of Holy Communion.
That happens to any out-group; blacks in segregated USA South who approached a white church, for example. It's not about God, it's about deep flaws in society and pretending the flaws reflect God's values.
Never confuse those who claim to speak for God with what God actually speaks.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
What if God's purpose for us is to help build the Kingdom of God in the world now, rather than it being something to happen in the future?
But I agree that God's purpose for us is to help build the Kingdom of God in the world now. I just think that if continued participation of each individual in that effort does not last, then it is a pale shadow of what it is when it is envisioned as lasting forever.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Do you really think that the Kingdom equates to nothing more than a 'humanist' society in which people look out for each other and love their families?
Not if those involved in it love God and seek to do His will.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But I don't think the white churches said that the blacks were going to Hell.
Some said blacks were animals and lacked souls.
a discussion
But the bigger point is, you are probably not going to change the Roman Catholic or any other church denomination, so why pay them any attention? No matter who any of us are, someone thinks we are pretty awful and probably going to hell.
"Women are the source of all sin" -- boy have I heard that one often -- I don't go to those churches. I'm not going to change their minds, so the best way for me to live a healthy life is to ignore them and laugh in amusement at the silly joke if I do get "confronted" with it.
Life's too short to go around feeling abused by stupid statements from churches. "Love your enemies" and "forgive" and all that doesn't mean agree with them, it means (among other things) be kind to your own blood pressure.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I believe/trust because that's just the way it is to me.
I think it's true, but there is a hell of a lot of stuff I don't know about, so I don't ask anyone to take my word for it. Sometimes I don't think there is a God, but I seem to go on trusting despite that.
I don't know much about an afterlife. Does anyone? It is a minuscule element of my my belief.
If you think it's a get out of Hell free card you've got the wrong end of the handle IMO. To provoke, I'd go so far as to say that Hell is only for Christians. Other don't need to worry about it.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If the appeal were really what a few of you state, I better pack up my life and take an early exit to oblivion, hell or other places less tormenting that worldly life has been these past 6 years, with a horrible acceleration these past 2 years.
For people truly questioning, either before giving Christianity a whirl or after finding out we're stopping the whirling because we're really effing dizzy, trite answers along the lines of "it's meaningless without resurrection" have zero value. Or maybe negative values. Like —1,000,000. Up the resurrection.
I know there are many like me who are so screwed over by God, by faith, by Jesus, by the holy spirit or whatever, that we can only find appeal in notions like Puddleglum's. (I'm a whole lot less confident and no where near as bold as he was, but I'll continue with Christianity because the alternative is even worse thank you very much.)
quote:
From CS Lewis' book "The Silver Chair":
Puddleglum: Suppose... suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones. And if this black pits of a kingdom is the best you can make, then it's a poor world. And we four can make a dream world to lick your real one hollow.
Green Lady: How dare you threaten me!
Puddleglum: As for me, I shall live like a Narnian even if there isn't any Narnia. So thank you very much for supper. We're going to leave your court at once and make our way across your great darkness to search for our land above!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I'd say that you should go where your heart leads you.
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Suppose teaching about what happens after death is taken out of its theology, what then is the appeal of Christianity to the ‘man in the street’?
As one of the resident atheists here, I'd say that it is becoming less and less appealing to the man in the street! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) This is especially so when he sees the damage that religious conflicts* are causing all over the world, and to which information he has instant access.
*The [phrase 'religious conflicts' will be picked up if I don't add that it is of course people who cause conflicts, whether or not they base their motive on their religious beliefs.
quote:
Can anyone explain this? I have had to ditch my conventional understanding because I can no longer hold a set of ‘beliefs’ as a ticket to a happy heaven.
Much of the reason must be that factual information about the universe, from the smallest particle to the farthest reaches of space, has replaced the Goddidit answer with understanding of how things really work. Supposed events such as virgin birth and resurrection are set against our understanding of biology and, in my strongly held opinion, fail completely.
Here (in UK) the CofE remains a backdrop for state events etc - and I would point out here that I would support this status quo at present because there isn't a strong enough , humanist, alternative ready to take over the duties of such a backdrop - but the subject of atheism is no longer a taboo subject as it was when I was young, when it was the height of bad manners to question people's beliefs.
quote:
I am also convinced that the Church will have to do the same.
My ideal scenario would be for the CofE to retain the community support, the organisation with regular meetings including music and thoughts, but remove all the supernatural bits!
May I please recommend that you investigate the BHA anda local Humanist Group, if you have one anywhere in your area. The group I belong to has an expanding membership and regular meetings with good speakers. It would be lovely if we had a rousing song too!
Having long ago realised that there is no pre- or after-life, I am doing everything I can to live this only one in the very best way I can.
Freddy
quote:
... Christianity falls flat. It is just humanism.
I quibble strongly with the word 'just'!! Humanism is what all decent humans do, and have done since our species began, but a God/god idea has been added to it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Surely Christianity is about a living relationship with God through Christ in this life as well as after death?
Maybe for you. Not all of us have that experience.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Freddy
quote:
... Christianity falls flat. It is just humanism.
I quibble strongly with the word 'just'!! Humanism is what all decent humans do, and have done since our species began, but a God/god idea has been added to it.
Hence your quibble.
I think your message illustrates that no afterlife implies no God, nothing supernatural, no Bible, and no religion. Others will disagree, but I think that is what it actually means.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Suppose teaching about what happens after death is taken out of its theology, what then is the appeal of Christianity to the ‘man in the in street'
Joy unspeakable and full of glory. 1 Peter 1:8 happens. It happens lots.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Surely Christianity is about a living relationship with God through Christ in this life as well as after death?
Maybe for you. Not all of us have that experience.
One has as much experience of God as one desires. And sometimes protracted periods of time without experience are a necessary stimulant to our desire. Or, on the other hand, they might simply be evidence that our God-concept is fatally flawed and in need of reformation.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Hence your quibble.
I think your message illustrates that no afterlife implies no God, nothing supernatural, no Bible, and no religion. Others will disagree, but I think that is what it actually means.
Yes. However, there is a Bible, i.e. a collection of writings by various people from their own ideas created in their evolved brains. There are other books of other religions too of course and the word 'holy' is applied to them; another word which I think should be redefined to remove its link with God/god/s or to make it clear that although the word had mystic connections. These have now been replaced by scientific answers. I do realise this won't happen in my lifetime though, but my optimism remains!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I'm surprised at the replies so far which imply that without the promise of an afterlife Christianity would be just a beneficial lifestyle choice.
Surely Christianity is about a living relationship with God through Christ in this life as well as after death? If taking away the latter, the former still applies.
Exactly! Christianity isn't fundamentally a moral system (though it includes that), but about knowing and delighting in the good God who made us for Himself.
But that said, that Christianity is about an eternal hope, not just this lifetime, is a vital part both of its truth and "appeal".
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Surely Christianity is about a living relationship with God through Christ in this life as well as after death?
Maybe for you. Not all of us have that experience.
For some it's an indirect relationship eg by way of the scriptures and/or the Church rather than by direct experience, but the living relationship is what Christianity is about imv.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris: the word 'holy' is applied to them; another word which I think should be redefined to remove its link with God/god/s
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Why not use another word rather than try to change the meaning of the existing one? Is it all part of the grand plan to try to erase any mention of God from people's lives?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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shadeson
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# 17132
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Posted
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Macrina
………..I too found myself in a place where the theology no longer made intellectual sense to me and I rejected it…………
quote:
quetzalcoatl
So I don't see it in such intellectual terms as the thread-setter.
Rather than get myself analysed, I am trying to see how Christianity can regain its appeal in the western world.
Telling people God loves them and they can have their sins forgiven does not seem to attract people any more. (I must admit that I am not quite sure what Jesus meant by “those that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick” - it could be that he didn’t expect many to be disciples.)
I agree with the general opinion that without the belief that death is followed by resurrection, Christianity just becomes a life style. It would then be as St. Paul put it, “we of all people, are most to be pitied”.
Teaching about what happens after death is almost the definition of a religion and it is probable that death arouses the most questions about spiritual things. Atheists have nothing to say here.
Christianity seems to be pretty confused. Goodness only knows how ministers reconcile their creed with comforting the majority of the bereaved.
I feel that it is enough for Christians just to teach that life is eternal and all will take part in a resurrection after death. All the stuff about heaven and hell should be junked until we are less confused about it.
I wondered if this would make the salvation of this life through a relationship with a Christ-like God more attractive. Plenty seem to need help through personal crises and family breakdown.
Regarding my ditching of conventional beliefs - perhaps in other threads.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris
However, there is a Bible, i.e. a collection of writings by various people from their own ideas created in their evolved brains.
Presumably this is just an unsubstantiated subjective opinion you happen to hold?
If not, then where's the supporting evidence?
I tend to be of the view that atheist assertions per se don't actually count as evidence, scientific or otherwise.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
I am trying to see how Christianity can regain its appeal in the western world.
If this is what you're after, then the only question you need to answer is:
What's in it for me?
What is Christianity actually offering people in this life? Is it something they actually want, or is it a hard life of service to others and self-denial?
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Hail Gallaxhar
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
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Originally posted by daronmedway:
One has as much experience of God as one desires.
I call bullshit. How would you know this? I know many people who would like to have an experience of God but who do not. This is your theology overriding the observed facts.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
What is Christianity actually offering people in this life? Is it something they actually want, or is it a hard life of service to others and self-denial?
Well, Christianity might offer a lot of conformity to institutional expectations, but Christ offers an easy life of service to others, rather than a hard life of extremely tedious and depressing self-obsession.
"It is more blessed to give than to receive."
As for whether people want what Christ offers: no, many people do not want it, to their loss.
As for 'self-denial'... I guess Christianity isn't the only ideology that thinks personal discipline is quite a good thing. Unbridled self-gratification has, I suggest, made a great many people deeply unhappy. Do feel free to disagree with me...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
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Posted
I think I've messed up the quotes slightly at one point, but can't work out how. My apologies.
quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
But that said, that Christianity is about an eternal hope, not just this lifetime, is a vital part both of its truth and "appeal".
However, with demand for, and the ability to find, evidence of claims there is a considerable change in the Christian Church's position and, in my opinion, rightly so.
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
So I don't see it in such intellectual terms as the thread-setter.
Rather than get myself analysed, I am trying to see how Christianity can regain its appeal in the western world.
I think that without the facts which would obviate the need for faith, then how can Christianity be better than the scientific reality which can be accessed on TV, radio and the internet? Those who prefer to have faith that God and Jesus are providing support are underestimating the power, strength and resourcefulness , as well as the imagination, of our human evolved brains. It is always human support whatever the beliefs of a comforting person, or the person him/herself when alone.
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Telling people God loves them and they can have their sins forgiven does not seem to attract people any more.
Well, why would it? If they ask, 'Is that true?' the answer cannot be 'yes'. It might be a comforting thought, but since the events of the everyday world never show any god
stepping in to save any murder victim, saying, 'god moves in mysterious ways,' or something is not going to help. Okay, the 'comforting' thought about a 'living god' and a 'living Jesus' has been around for such a long time that for it to become a far more minority view, to be replaced by the understanding that it is all human, is going to take a very long time. And again, I suppose I have to admit - rightly so.
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Teaching about what happens after death is almost the definition of a religion and it is probable that death arouses the most questions about spiritual things. Atheists have nothing to say here.
*splutter, shock, horror* Hmmmmm!!! The word 'spiritual' applies to aspects of every single person's life. Why would you think that an atheist cannot be 'spiritual'? This word cannot be applied to religious belief only.
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Christianity seems to be pretty confused. Goodness only knows how ministers reconcile their creed with comforting the majority of the bereaved.
Agree.
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I feel that it is enough for Christians just to teach that life is eternal and all will take part in a resurrection after death.
A dear friend of mine died earlier this year. She firmly believed that she would go on to an eternal life and be reunited with her husband. That belief gave her great comfort and it was of course her absolute right to have such comfort. She used to worry a bit about my move hyears ago away from belief to atheism, but could see, after a friendship of 58 years, that I was still the same cheerful, happy optimist!!
quote:
I wondered if this would make the salvation of this life through a relationship with a Christ-like God more attractive. Plenty seem to need help through personal crises and family breakdown.
Yes, that is a very difficult one for everyone. Do you think they should then be assured that it will come from something for which they cannot be given proof, but only be told that this is something they should believe?
Thank you for the interest I have had this afternoon writing this post.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
One has as much experience of God as one desires.
I call bullshit. How would you know this? I know many people who would like to have an experience of God but who do not. This is your theology overriding the observed facts.
Psalm 37:4 contains the following exhortation and attendant promise: quote:
Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.
It would also be helpful if you didn't edit the nuances from my statements in order to manufacture straw men.
[ 15. October 2012, 16:45: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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