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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is the appeal of Christianity?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It is well with my soul is a testimony to the value of Christian faith in this life of suffering.
It is indeed - did you hear the CCK Brighton (NF) version on "Songs of Praise" a week ago?
No, was it good? I'll look on iPlayer
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is indeed - did you hear the CCK Brighton (NF) version on "Songs of Praise" a week ago?
No, was it good? I'll look on iPlayer
You might find it, but it's more than 7 days old now. I can possibly make a file and put it onto an FTP server for you if you have no joy.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No Alogon, the Church is Western. Greco-Roman above ALL. The impact of unadulterated Christianity, pure and undefiled on the development of Western civilization is not quantifiable. There is VERY little sign of it. If any. It's like looking for 'proof' of God in creation. It's post-hoc, in the eye of the beholder.
So it cuts no quantifiable ice to observe, for instance, that universities arose under church (and especially papal) sponsorship or that Benedictine monks drained the swamps of Europe-- one must state exactly how many universities or how many square miles of swamp?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No Sir, those are worthy endeavours. But what have they got to do with Christ? What have they got to do with visiting widows and orphans in their affliction? They would have happened under Islamic or Confucist or Hindu rule. What kingdom have the beatitudes built?
[ 16. October 2012, 20:26: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Unless you are LGBT - saith the Anglican Communion and the RCC.
LGBTs are not loved. They are going to Hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200.
Different church to the ones you mentioned, but check out the left hand box in the middle of this web page.
This is a very high profile church in Glasgow, so not a statement they'd make without careful thought.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is indeed - did you hear the CCK Brighton (NF) version on "Songs of Praise" a week ago?
No, was it good? I'll look on iPlayer
You might find it, but it's more than 7 days old now. I can possibly make a file and put it onto an FTP server for you if you have no joy.
No, the only one there is from Stoke
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
Suppose teaching about what happens after death is taken out of its theology, what then is the appeal of Christianity to the ‘man in the street’?
As one of the resident atheists here, I'd say that it is becoming less and less appealing to the man in the street! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Which man in which street Susan? In the last 30 years more than 5,000 churches have been planted in the UK not to mention new "missional communities" of believers sharing their faith in communities without the full-blown paraphernalia of more established church formats.
You might also want to look at the experience of countries that have tried formally and positively to discourage belief in God as a matter of social policy, and have now abandoned the idea.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No Sir, those are worthy endeavours. But what have they got to do with Christ? What have they got to do with visiting widows and orphans in their affliction? They would have happened under Islamic or Confucist or Hindu rule. What kingdom have the beatitudes built?
Hold your horses, Martin.
I find it hard to believe that those things do not happen in those societies. The image of God and Christ are there as well. Certainly in Tibetan/Mahyana Buddhism there is the ideal of the compassionate Bodhisattva, so in my Chaplaincy/Spiritual care course we had a Bhuddist Monk and Nun. For them, Christ is a Bodhisattva.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, Latchkey Kid, I'm not denigrating Islam, Buddhism, Confucism, Hinduism, Sikhism, humanism or comparing them badly with European religion at all.
On the contrary.
The whole creation groans in expectation.
I am convinced that Christ is coming to all of these cultures and more, even Christendom.
That a global culture of the beatitudes is about to pour out of all flesh.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Which man in which street Susan? In the last 30 years more than 5,000 churches have been planted in the UK not to mention new "missional communities" of believers sharing their faith in communities without the full-blown paraphernalia of more established church formats.
Churches have been planted. They have also born little fruit. In the 25 years between 1980 and 2005, church attendance in England has dropped from 5.06 million to 3.07 million. or a drop of 39%. In the same 25 year period the number of churches in the UK has dropped by more than 2500, so for every church planted, 1.5 has closed. So church attendance has dropped by 39% and church numbers by only 5%. Which says something about the numbers in each church.
And even the "New Churches" have lost 14% of their worshippers in the ten years between 1995 and 2005. Only the numbers of the Pentecostals and the Orthodoxen are rising (and there are only just over 25,000 Orthodoxen).
quote:
You might also want to look at the experience of countries that have tried formally and positively to discourage belief in God as a matter of social policy, and have now abandoned the idea.
You mean like Russia? Where instead of discouraging belief (the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church), Patriarch Kirill is calling Putin's presidency 'A Miracle of God'?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
we have to believe in [God] and trust him, that what he says is true and good.
That's the hard part.
The really hard part.
Yes, that's true, it is.
It's hard enough to believe intellectually, but it's even harder to base our life on it, and hardest of all to embrace it with our whole being, so it can actually get harder the longer we try. However, Christ has been there before us and is with us to help. And when we get glimpses of where he is leading us, it's possible to know that it is worth all the sacrifice, even in the here and now.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No, the only one there is from Stoke
I'll try and find time to put it on youtube tonight - I'll send you a message when it's done.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
@Mudfrog:
I tried to message you, but your message box is full:
Anyway, re CCK Brighton's version of "It is Well With My Soul," someone has beaten me to it:
Brighton Pt 3
It begins at 02.08
enjoy!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
@Mudfrog:
I tried to message you, but your message box is full:
Anyway, re CCK Brighton's version of "It is Well With My Soul," someone has beaten me to it:
Brighton Pt 3
It begins at 02.08
enjoy!
Hmmm
Not sure about the 'poppy' rhythm and tune. Hate that he has altered the words and taken away the depth of emotion that was within the words, reflecting the experience of the original author.
I really don't like the flat cap either.
Sorry.
Try
This
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Justinian
Many thanks for posting the statistics; I was going to have to seek help on thatquestion.
Ramarius
Thank you for response, but I am grateful to Justinian for quoting the statistics.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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shadeson
Shipmate
# 17132
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Posted
originally posted by daronmedway
quote:
Well, I was thinking about it more in terms of what God offers us: forgiveness for example. I've had people - including former gangsters and drug dealers - cry on my shoulder like babies when I've explained that God forgives them.
What you are saying relates directly to the healing Jesus did for the prostitutes, lepers, deaf, lame - he went on to tell them that their sins were forgiven.
However Jesus also preached to the crowds on many occasions and it is recorded that he made disciples. What about those who were happy with their lives and didn’t fornicate or drink - did they worry about going to hell. They probably disliked the religious fanatics who crucified him and got on with their lives.
I am of the view that when Jesus said Christians were to be salt, light etc. he didn’t blame the dough for being what it was. There will never be many Christians but to then say that the dough is going to be burnt in the oven (hope you understand my twist) makes the message look just medieval.
Maybe that is why this thread has not come up with many answers.
Incidentally, what do you say to the bereaved?
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Now we see through a glass darkly, but then, face to face
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Posts: 136 | From: uk | Registered: May 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I'm touched by your faith in hospitals.
Hey, I never said they had a 100% success rate. Just that if I'm in need of healing I'll go to a hospital rather than to a church.
quote:
We all need forgiveness to maintain a healthy relationship with anyone. But since you say you don't have a relationship with God I can understand why you relegate forgiveness to the afterlife.
That's not a crack by the way - I understand why you say it and why for you it makes sense. But for people who have a relationship with God, forgiveness is an ever present, and essential daily reality.
While I'm sure that's true, it doesn't exactly help when asking what Christianity has to offer to anyone who isn't already Christian, and/or doesn't already have that relationship with God.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Hmmm
Not sure about the 'poppy' rhythm and tune. Hate that he has altered the words and taken away the depth of emotion that was within the words, reflecting the experience of the original author.
I really don't like the flat cap either.
Sorry.
Try
This
Yes well.. the changes to the words could be down to the BBC - you know they don't like anything which isn't christianity-lite on "Songs of Praise".
As for the flat cap - well, you know in many churches he'd be politely asked to remove it. I don't know about Salvationists, but we would consider it the height of bad manners!
But this is NewFrontiers, so they go by their own rules - we can't tell them what to do any more than they can us.
Anyway, thanks for your video of the song - I quite like the NF version myself, but it helps to hear it sung the way it was intended for comparison.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No Sir, those are worthy endeavours. But what have they got to do with Christ?
I don't have a definitive reply to that deep question on the the tip of my tongue, other than a feeling that Christ encourages many worthy endeavors and opposes none. He certainly did not want Pilate's question "what is truth?" to go unanswered.
quote:
They would have happened under Islamic or Confucist or Hindu rule.
Then why didn't they?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
[QUOTE]They would have happened under Islamic or Confucist or Hindu rule.
Then why didn't they?
Much learning development did occur in the Islamic world, viz algebra among many fields.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Much learning, yes, in the golden age, but science as we know it never got a foothold.
One could add that our very definition of "worthy endeavor" is so informed by Christian values as to make it almost tautological in our culture. You, Martin, and I take it for granted that education, higher education, and empirical research are a worthy endeavor. But other parts of the world would take grave exception to that assumption even now.
For instance, coed universities are routine in the west and not even a hopeless male chauvinist like me would object in principle. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But to this day high-profile Muslims believe that schooling is a "worthy endeaver" only for males. As recent news reveals, the Taliban ("seekers of truth", ha!) go to the mat over this. Obviously, some of them would rather see a 14-year-old girl dead than attending school and encouraging her sisters to do likewise.
Did the Christian cult of the Blessed Virgin Mary have anything to do with this difference (and others)? Nah, says Martin. But I'm Hegelian enough to think so.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And while I'm at it, church planting is in massive decline. It is true that in the past 30 years over five thousand new churches have been planted. In fact almost six thousand have. But between 1980 and 1994 just over four thousand churches were planted. Between 1995 and 2010 just under two thousand churches were planted.
The point I was addressing was about the relevance of Christianity to the man in the street. The evidence of a vibrant church planting movement is evidence of relevance. You could also add in the numbers of
Missional Communities which I mentioned in the original point.
Attachment to faith in the UK ebbs and flows historically. Current trends are that it's on the flow path.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
[QUOTE][qb]You might also want to look at the experience of countries that have tried formally and positively to discourage belief in God as a matter of social policy, and have now abandoned the idea.
You mean like Russia? Where instead of discouraging belief (the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church), Patriarch Kirill is calling Putin's presidency 'A Miracle of God'?
He means like Russia where Stalin killed
twenty million of his fellow human beings.
No idea what you point about Payriarch Krill is supposed to illustrate.
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
[QUOTE]We all need forgiveness to maintain a healthy relationship with anyone. But since you say you don't have a relationship with God I can understand why you relegate forgiveness to the afterlife.
.
While I'm sure that's true, it doesn't exactly help when asking what Christianity has to offer to anyone who isn't already Christian, and/or doesn't already have that relationship with God.
How about the open invitation to experience it for themselves.
Why not take up the offer?
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And while I'm at it, church planting is in massive decline. It is true that in the past 30 years over five thousand new churches have been planted. In fact almost six thousand have. But between 1980 and 1994 just over four thousand churches were planted. Between 1995 and 2010 just under two thousand churches were planted.
The point I was addressing was about the relevance of Christianity to the man in the street. The evidence of a vibrant church planting movement is evidence of relevance. You could also add in the numbers of
Missional Communities which I mentioned in the original point.
Attachment to faith in the UK ebbs and flows historically. Current trends are that it's on the flow path.
Did you even read your own link? Let alone mine?
quote:
Average weekly attendance was down slightly at 1,116,100 (2009: 1,130,600), with average monthly attendance also slightly down at 1,645,500 (2009: 1,650,600) illustrating how many worship on a convenient day during the month, not necessarily Sunday. Average Sunday attendance dropped two per cent to 923,700 (2009: 944,400). The average number of children and young people at services each week was down two per cent at 218,600 (2009: 223,000); while the number of children and young people attending on a monthly basis was virtually unchanged at 437,700 (2009: 436,200).
Even in the year, with a rising population, and an immigrant population that is a lot more strongly Christian, church attendance is falling. By your own numbers the Church is marginally less relevant than it was even last year.
As for your so-called 'fresh expressions', those are mostly an attempt to put new wine into old wineskins. A 'fresh expression' is not the same thing as a planted church (the numbers of which, as I have shown, are tumbling). It can be as little as a new type of service - something the churches I am familiar with have played with and kept the ones that work. 2000 fresh expressions is an utterly meaningless number - there is no basis of historical comparison. Were there a simmilar number of outreach and evangelism projects in the 80s? Almost certainly more. Or do you somehow think the Great Commission is a new thing?
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
[QUOTE][qb]You might also want to look at the experience of countries that have tried formally and positively to discourage belief in God as a matter of social policy, and have now abandoned the idea.
You mean like Russia? Where instead of discouraging belief (the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church), Patriarch Kirill is calling Putin's presidency 'A Miracle of God'?
He means like Russia where Stalin killed
twenty million of his fellow human beings.
No idea what you point about Payriarch Krill is supposed to illustrate.
That you don't try to suppress Christianity. It is a seriously stupid idea when ever since the days of Constantine the Church has been asking to be coopted by the secular authorities.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
How about the open invitation to experience it for themselves.
Why not take up the offer?
To accept an invitation to experience something, one first has to believe that the something exists. Otherwise the invitation is completely meaningless.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
To me as an atheist, Christianity offered the reality of God. That was its appeal - it was true.
To me (subsequently) as a Christian, Christianity offers the appeal: "Now I see through a glass darkly, but then I shall face to face" (1 Cor 13). "God appeal" - the surpassing beauty, splendour, majesty, truth, glory, wisdom and (above all) love, of God - and the prospect of seeing all that goodness revealed, rather than hidden - is a profound appeal. Scary too, but still, there is nothing to compare.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And while I'm at it, church planting is in massive decline. It is true that in the past 30 years over five thousand new churches have been planted. In fact almost six thousand have. But between 1980 and 1994 just over four thousand churches were planted. Between 1995 and 2010 just under two thousand churches were planted.
The point I was addressing was about the relevance of Christianity to the man in the street. The evidence of a vibrant church planting movement is evidence of relevance. You could also add in the numbers of
Missional Communities which I mentioned in the original point.
The use of the word "plant" here and in Justinian's link puts a positive spin on the evidence, but it is unsupported. The section headed "Decline in church planting" is actually all churches opened and closed, whatever the reason. To assume that all of those new churches are plants, with the impression of vibrancy that goes with it, is unjustified. A church set up due to a doctrinal split in a congregation of 20 would just as much count as a new church.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Pre-Cambrian
It is equally true that it is very hard to count the new churches. About a decade ago I took a vague interest in this locally. New churches seem to appear spontaneously all the time in this area. Few last five years but there seems to be two replacements for each one that goes defunct. Most seem to consist of five people meeting in someone's sitting room.
Splits?
No Students and a very volatile population which many evangelical minded people seem to think is calling out to be evangelised. Conversions may actually be happening but they are like seeds that fell by a brook which initially flourished but then the brook flooded and they were washed away as the soil eroded around them.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Justinian
Many thanks for posting the statistics; I was going to have to seek help on thatquestion.
Ramarius
Thank you for response, but I am grateful to Justinian for quoting the statistics.
In terms of Christianity and atheistc states, China is probably the most fascinating example.
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Pre-Cambrian
It is equally true that it is very hard to count the new churches. About a decade ago I took a vague interest in this locally. New churches seem to appear spontaneously all the time in this area. Few last five years but there seems to be two replacements for each one that goes defunct. Most seem to consist of five people meeting in someone's sitting room.
Splits?
No Students and a very volatile population which many evangelical minded people seem to think is calling out to be evangelised. Conversions may actually be happening but they are like seeds that fell by a brook which initially flourished but then the brook flooded and they were washed away as the soil eroded around them.
Jengie
I seem to remember we discussed this in some detail in another thread. But for the sake of completeness, here's a summary of the headlines of the
evidence to which Ramarius refers.
And yes, I have a copy.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Exactly. That summary refers to 5000 new churches, not 5000 church plants. They are not the same thing and without further digging to find out what those 5000 entail you cannot unequivocally claim it as a sign of vibrancy.
The fact that the Church of England newspaper report uses raw statistics without the crucial context to make several claims like that indicates that its interpretation should be approached with caution.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
Four possibilities:
1. There is a God and an afterlife
2. There is a God but no afterlife
3. There is an afterlife but no God
4. There is neither an afterlife or a God
Possibility 2 strikes me as the most 'appealing', overall.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Exactly. That summary refers to 5000 new churches, not 5000 church plants. They are not the same thing and without further digging to find out what those 5000 entail you cannot unequivocally claim it as a sign of vibrancy.
The fact that the Church of England newspaper report uses raw statistics without the crucial context to make several claims like that indicates that its interpretation should be approached with caution.
Good catch on new churches not being the same as planted churches, thanks. And speaking as a professional statistician, the "Fresh expressions" link Ramarius provided rang my bullshit alarm hard. There were two cardinal statistical sins - both of which are used for either incompetence or a cover-up.
1: No baseline. Any number without a baseline is effectively meaningless (some things on a human scale are intuitive enough that you might not need an explicit one - I don't need a baseline explicitely presented to know "everyone in that family weighs over 200kg" is an exceptional statement - but anything across the population of England isn't).
2: The grouping of diverse things as 'Fresh Expressions' and then not differentiating them. A fresh expression can be things including a new church, a new family service, or a week night town centre service for working people. One of these things is not like the other ones. One of these things doesn't belong...
There is only only one reason a competent statitician groups things like this in a way they haven't been grouped before and that makes less sense because the factors are fundamentally unlike. This is to try to plump up the figures, normally to bury bad news. I'm pretty sure that if the number of churches being planted was increasing this would be trumpeted from the rooftops. Instead it is buried under the banner of 'fresh expressions'. These 'fresh expressions' smell like a rat to me.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Why are we even discussing church plants?
Even if there are six bajillion new churches planted every year, that can only ever answer the question "does Christianity appeal to the man in the street". It says absolutely nothing about what that appeal is.
There may be plenty of people who are content to say "we must be doing something right but buggered if I know what it is", but this is not the thread for them.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
Four possibilities:
1. There is a God and an afterlife
2. There is a God but no afterlife
3. There is an afterlife but no God
4. There is neither an afterlife or a God
Possibility 2 strikes me as the most 'appealing', overall.
So God is mortal?
How can there be a God for my lifetime only? If there is a God for my grandfather's lifetime and his grandfather's lifetime, then evidently God is here for us all....when does God actually stopped existing? when the last human dies?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There may be plenty of people who are content to say "we must be doing something right but buggered if I know what it is", but this is not the thread for them.
Even "we must be doing something right" isn't certain. I can remember the explosion of numbers of small left wing groups in the 70s-80s. The word 'groupuscule' was coined for them. Like some of he churches mentioned above the numbers reflected weakness not strength. The number of groups increased but overall numbers decreased and perhaps more importantly solidarity and the advantages of clout were lost.
People tend to stay on board a successful organisation of any sort. When it starts to fail you get more and more arguments about what is wrong and people start their own splinter groups which tend to have a 'cultic' base - a groupuscule of true believers around a charismatic leader with a simplified world view.
Of course every group will point out that Christianity started that way so it isn't always a sign of failure.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
Four possibilities:
1. There is a God and an afterlife
2. There is a God but no afterlife
3. There is an afterlife but no God
4. There is neither an afterlife or a God
Possibility 2 strikes me as the most 'appealing', overall.
So God is mortal?
How can there be a God for my lifetime only? If there is a God for my grandfather's lifetime and his grandfather's lifetime, then evidently God is here for us all....when does God actually stopped existing? when the last human dies?
I have just realised that what I have written doesn't necessarily follow. If there is no afterlife that doesn't necessarily mean that God is not eternal. But what I would say is that if there is no afterlife for us where we will join God in eternity, then Christianity, as stated in the Bible, is a falsehood and to quote Paul, if there is no resurrection, etc, then Christ is not raised and we are to be pitied and are still in our sins.
You simply can not have Christianity as a lifestyle choice / philosophy for this life only.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I think that without the facts which would obviate the need for faith, then how can Christianity be better than the scientific reality which can be accessed on TV, radio and the internet? Those who prefer to have faith that God and Jesus are providing support are underestimating the power, strength and resourcefulness , as well as the imagination, of our human evolved brains.
You fall into the same fallacy as many who argue this: you assume Christianity is about assent to a set of propositions which, if falsified, would falsify Christianity.
The problem with that logic is that the premise is flawed. Christianity is not about assent to a set of propositions.
Scientific understanding is marvellous. I am awed by our expanding knowledge of the universe and by the clever bods who provide me with my weekly digest in New Scientist. I've read and understood original research on evolution and consider it an exemplary way to describe the descent of species. I've argued creationists to silence on why their beliefs are untenable. I'm not a scientist, but I am a very well-educated lay person.
None of that has any bearing on my Christianity. Christianity is not about a ten-step program to get into Heaven, it's all about relationships. And, Marvin, it's got nothing to do with a spending your life in crushing servitude.
For many reasons I consider myself one of the most reluctant Christians on the planet but I find that my life is better when I spend it with my perceived God than without. I echo C.S. Lewis: I love Christ the way I love the sun; not because I can see it, but because by it every thing else can be seen more clearly.
I am not in this for the afterlife. For a start I think that eternal life is already happening to me: merely the nature of it changes at death. Also I am not scared of death, and I am not living in the hope of seeing my loved ones when I pass through it (for philosophical reasons I don't believe I will). It's really really not about the afterlife.
Anyone can be nice to people: we should all aspire to be humanists. But if you're not living in the presence of God you're missing out on something extra. Unfortunately that's a hard thing to sell to the man on the street.
So I go about my life, trying to be all Christ-like, serving people out of a sense of deep joy, spending time with God, and just hope that the man on the street sees something in me and realises that whatever it is he lacks it and then starts to explore.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
You simply can not have Christianity as a lifestyle choice / philosophy for this life only.
Well clearly you can. It just doesn't look like what you recognise as Christianity.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
You simply can not have Christianity as a lifestyle choice / philosophy for this life only.
Well clearly you can. It just doesn't look like what you recognise as Christianity.
So, it would be 'christianity' without a resurrection - any kind of resurrection. Therefore it would have no redemption. Therefore the only message Jesus of Nazareth would give would be 'love your neighbour'.
What's the point of this religion then? We might just as well be pre-exilic Israelites.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Exactly. That summary refers to 5000 new churches, not 5000 church plants. They are not the same thing and without further digging to find out what those 5000 entail you cannot unequivocally claim it as a sign of vibrancy.
The fact that the Church of England newspaper report uses raw statistics without the crucial context to make several claims like that indicates that its interpretation should be approached with caution.
So let's dig a little further. The Ashgate research referred to is essentially qualitative, but since we are on a slight tangent looking at numbers here's a few. The research consists of a number of case studies from a range of Christian expressions to illustrate church growth in the UK. It notes, for example, that the Baptist Union planted around 200 churches in the 1990s, that around 14% of Baptist churches have a membership in excess of 350, and the majority of joiners do so after making a profession of faith.
Another example relates to churches planted out of church planting training colleges. Students from Victory Church Hampstead's former Bible College have planted over 100 churches in the UK.
Whilst it's true that some new churches are the result of division your conclusion that this somehow undermines the claim of vibrancy in church life doesn't necessarily follow. You made no assumption of the volume of new churches that start in this way, nor did you consider the possibility that churches started out of division may also be evidence of unreleased energy. As a professional statistician I'm surprised Justinian didn't consider this.
To make the point we can consider further the Ashgate research. The Redeemed Christian Church of God is an example of a church planting movement spawned in the UK by church planters frustrated in an existing denominational setting. One example is an RCC church that began has a house church in 1998, multiplied to 161 'parishes' by 2004, and to 440 by 2010.
And whilst we are on the subject of good statistical practice, it is helpful where we can to agree on definitions. My definition of
Fresh Expression is from here. The number of Christian experssions that would meet Jstinian's broader definition would far exceed those covered here.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There may be plenty of people who are content to say "we must be doing something right but buggered if I know what it is", but this is not the thread for them.
Even "we must be doing something right" isn't certain. I can remember the explosion of numbers of small left wing groups in the 70s-80s. The word 'groupuscule' was coined for them. Like some of he churches mentioned above the numbers reflected weakness not strength. The number of groups increased but overall numbers decreased and perhaps more importantly solidarity and the advantages of clout were lost.
People tend to stay on board a successful organisation of any sort. When it starts to fail you get more and more arguments about what is wrong and people start their own splinter groups which tend to have a 'cultic' base - a groupuscule of true believers around a charismatic leader with a simplified world view.
Of course every group will point out that Christianity started that way so it isn't always a sign of failure.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
So let's dig a little further. The Ashgate research referred to is essentially qualitative, but since we are on a slight tangent looking at numbers here's a few. The research consists of a number of case studies from a range of Christian expressions to illustrate church growth in the UK.
And any research that claims that churches are growing that doesn't take into account that (a) The total number of churches is declining and (b) the number of churchgoers is declining far, far faster than the number of churches is is trying to sell you something.
quote:
It notes, for example, that the Baptist Union planted around 200 churches in the 1990s, that around 14% of Baptist churches have a membership in excess of 350, and the majority of joiners do so after making a profession of faith.
Contextless factoids that are typical of most of the evangelical puffery I've seen. The 200 churches planted doesn't say how many closed. And although baptist numbers didn't do badly in the 90s, Baptist actual numbers fell by 15,000 between 2000 and 2005. All the undoubted work the Baptists are putting in is barely enough to keep their numbers stable. And the Baptists are as near a success story as there is.
quote:
Another example relates to churches planted out of church planting training colleges. Students from Victory Church Hampstead's former Bible College have planted over 100 churches in the UK.
Again I refer you to links already given. New churches being founded between 1995 and 2010 happened at half the rate it did between 1980 and 1994. Just because there are churches being planted and some people are enthusiastic doesn't mean it isn't slowly sliding into irrelevancy.
quote:
Whilst it's true that some new churches are the result of division your conclusion that this somehow undermines the claim of vibrancy in church life doesn't necessarily follow.
And vibrancy doesn't mean relevance. In 25 years between 1980 and 2005, the biggest three denominations have haemoherraged worshippers. The Anglicans lost half a million worshippers - over a third of their number. The Roman Catholics lost over a million and over half their numbers. The Methodists lost three hundred thousand and half theirs.
Even once you take out the 1.9 million worshippers lost by the big three denominations at the start of the 80s, the trend in attendance is still downward. Of the only three groupings to gain numbers, two (the Pentecostals and Orthodoxen) are associated with immigration. And the 'New Churches' haven't even picked up as many worshippers as the URC lost.
To the man in the street, the 1.9 million fewer Christians is far more indicative than the small pockets of vibrancy that are planting fewer and fewer churches.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
But if you're not living in the presence of God you're missing out on something extra.
OK, but what is that something extra? Can it be described?
I mean, if someone tells me I'm missing out by not knowing their mate John, I can ask why and be told that he's a really funny chap, always stands his round in the pub, happy to help if you've got a DIY problem at home, and so on. And based on those descriptions I can decide if John really is a chap I want to get to know. So what can we tell people about 'our mate Jesus' that might make them want to get to know Him better?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilyswinburne
Shipmate
# 12934
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Posted
I surmise that people have already heard about your mate Jesus and what they've heard makes them not want to get to know him better.
Posts: 126 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
@Justinian. The Ashgate research references the decline in church numbers - your assumption that it didn't is a poor use of evidence. It also has evidence more recent than 2005.
Your suggestion that church growth is declining into irrelevancy is an absurd interpretation of the evidence. It's a little like suggestion that the UK economy is in terminal decline and social issues in the nation are turning us into a Third World nation.
The church situation in the Uk is complex. The overall decline in numbers may now have reached its nadir and begun to reverse. Church growth is more common in urban than rural areas, for example. The Ashgate research looks at case studies of growing churches. I'm assuming your training is not in social research - this may be unfamiliar territory to you.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
But if you're not living in the presence of God you're missing out on something extra.
OK, but what is that something extra? Can it be described?
Mate, I wish I could. If it were possible I would be writing excitingly-titled books about it and make literally tens of pounds selling them.
Problem is, it's relative: if I tell you it's a sense of peace then you say "well I'm peaceful...". If I tell you it's a sense of joy you say "well I'm joyful...". All I know is that it's very different from my other feelings of peace and joy.
So, lots of airy-fairy, unsubstantiable, irrational rubbish, basically.
I have a blind friend, blind since birth. She gets along just fine with her senses as they are - she goes to towns she doesn't know, finds her way to rock concerts, publishes books. She doesn't know what she's missing because she doesn't miss it.
But if I try to describe stars to her, she simply doesn't have the frame of reference to get what I'm on about: she can understand the theory, she can get the concept, but she can't grasp how you can see something that is far, far away. Her senses extend to the reach of her arms and the limit of her hearing. To imagine seeing something 6 billion light years away is, quite literally, beyond her ken.
So until she, by some medical miracle, receives perfect vision she can never know what it is like to see a star.
Same with being in relationship with God.
I mentioned that I am a reluctant Christian...well that's one reason why. It's totally irrational, but that doesn't make it invalid.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
I surmise that people have already heard about your mate Jesus and what they've heard makes them not want to get to know him better.
I surmise that this is because arseholes are as well represented in Christianity as they are in general society. Unfortunately they tend to be the loud ones.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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