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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Who isn't a Christian?
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Go on then, tell me who you don't consider to be a Christian (that self-identifies as one) and why.
I'll get my coat.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
According to the ancient belief of the Church, unbaptized people aren't Christians.
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
But who has been baptised?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
you must first state what you believe to be the conditionality for being considered *Christian*
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Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth. - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
you must first state what you believe to be the conditionality for being considered *Christian*
Self identification with the label Christian.
Who says they are a Christian but isn't?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Go on then, tell me who you don't consider to be a Christian (that self-identifies as one) and why.
I think that approach (not that I think it is yours) is not only unhelpful, but is counter-productive.
Christians who don't consider other Christians to be Christians are not Christians. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) Perhaps they are the ones who will say "Lord, Lord didn't we cast out these non-Christians in Your Name". You know what the answer will be.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
The Church Of Jesus Christ-Christian
Though, since I assume the point of this thread is for The Long Ranger to tell us why groups we don't consider Christian are in fact Christian, I'd be interested to hear his defense of the Jesus Christ-Christian tendency.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Oh I see. So we're all entirely comfortable with Jehovah's Witnesses being Christians, are we? No, didn't think so.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Nope the point was that I noticed some dancing around people the question of which other people were not Christians and thought maybe I should invite people to stop dancing around and come out and say it.
I don't assume my opinions are any more right than anyone elses, just interested in who and why.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I thought we were meant get over this Jew-Samaritan thing and who worshipped in the right way.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Nope the point was that I noticed some dancing around people the question of which other people were not Christians and thought maybe I should invite people to stop dancing around and come out and say it.
Well, alright then. The musical chair I'm sitting on is the Church Of Jesus Christ-Christian.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I'll bite ...
I've been told I'm not a proper Christian because I haven't been born again and neither did I say the sinner's prayer. I've also been told I'm not a proper Christian because I am not a young earth creationist and will argue about the inerrancy of the Bible (which won't surprise anyone who's seen me in Dead Horses). I'm not convinced that these are measures of Christianity.
Personally, I think there's a bit more to Christianity than praying the sinner's prayer, having seen a few people declaring that they're now Christian having said it once ...
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
At a first approximation, I'd like to go for anyone who self-identifies as Christian.
As a second approximation, I'd like to build in some qualifiers. There has to be some sense in which they see themselves as using the word 'Christian' in the same way as the rest of us. If they refer to Jesus, they have to see the rest of us as being not entirely misled about who Jesus was and what he was up to. Likewise, I think they have to think that they're more similar to the rest of us in some relevant way than they are to any other body of belief. There needs to be a reason why they use the word 'Christian' rather than 'Muslim' or 'neo-pagan' or 'spiritualist', for example.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't really qualify for me chiefly because they would regard the rest of us as not Christians in the sense that they call themselves Christians.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Oh I see. So we're all entirely comfortable with Jehovah's Witnesses being Christians, are we? No, didn't think so.
If they say they are Christians, what's the point of me telling them they are not? Or vice versa?
Isn't just to get some self-satisfaction.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
you must first state what you believe to be the conditionality for being considered *Christian*
Self identification with the label Christian.
Who says they are a Christian but isn't?
in in whose opinion?
[ 12. October 2012, 20:55: Message edited by: Jahlove ]
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Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth. - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
According to the ancient belief of the Church, unbaptized people aren't Christians.
The question was who do you not consider to be a Christian. The above is answering some other question altogether .
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid
Christians who don't consider other Christians to be Christians are not Christians.
I guess that's true if the word 'Christian' means next to nothing - or actually nothing as in the case of so called "Christian atheists". Patronising uses of the word 'Christian' - as in the example I gave - are not recognised by the Christian writing this post, so I guess, according to your definition, this person is also not a 'Christian'. This judgment is, of course, self-contradictory, given that my definition of 'Christian' is just as valid as that of the "Christian atheist" or indeed your definition!
[ 12. October 2012, 20:57: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
isn't in whose opinion?
Yours. Your church or group.
I don't know - what's with the difficult questions.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Flossymole
Apprentice
# 17339
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Posted
Originally posted by the long ranger
quote:
Oh I see. So we're all entirely comfortable with Jehovah's Witnesses being Christians, are we? No, didn't think so.
I'm not entirely sure Jehovah's Witnesses are that comfortable with being Christians. I asked one on my doorstep if he was a Christian (I wanted to know) but he just kept repeating that Jesus Christ was the first Jehovah's Witness. Not the same thing. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 43 | From: Derbyshire UK | Registered: Sep 2012
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
isn't in whose opinion?
Yours. Your church or group.
I don't know - what's with the difficult questions.
LOL
AFAIK, the RCC (my lot) does not pronounce on the *non-Christianity* of anyone - only proclaims the fullness of faith may be found in her.
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Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth. - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
what's with the difficult questions.
You started it!
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
According to the ancient belief of the Church, unbaptized people aren't Christians.
The question was who do you not consider to be a Christian. The above is answering some other question altogether .
Imma go with the ancient Church on this one.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I have difficulty calling Christian anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ. After all there are Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists who like the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, and the former even believe he was sent by God. What makes Christians different is believing that he was and is God, and hence is worthy of worship.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
AFAIK, the RCC (my lot) does not pronounce on the *non-Christianity* of anyone - only proclaims the fullness of faith may be found in her.
Not sure all of your co-religionists would agree...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Those who do not wish to be called a Christian are not Christian.
The rest including self I class a doubtful.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Crsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
AFAIK, the RCC (my lot) does not pronounce on the *non-Christianity* of anyone - only proclaims the fullness of faith may be found in her.
Oh, now you're just being modest.
Seriously, the game of "who's in, who's out, who's burnt at the stake?" is one of the historically most popular Christian passtimes.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
According to the ancient belief of the Church, unbaptized people aren't Christians.
The question was who do you not consider to be a Christian. The above is answering some other question altogether .
Imma go with the ancient Church on this one.
I see.
Which Church? I've just had my knuckles rapped on another thread for not realizing that in one expression of our Lord's Body on earth, even baptized people can be in danger of being 'un'saved, which kind of indicates that some who are Christians according to their baptism are likely to be bitterly disillusioned. No doubt after the example of 'not all those who say "Lord, Lord"' etc. Or, seriously, can one be a Christian but not on the way to the Heavenly Realms?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The Long Ranger: quote:
I don't know - what's with the difficult questions.
Surely you could have worked out by now that "difficult" questions are what these boards are about.
There are actually people who post here who realise that black/white is just part of the many shades (some say fifty!) of grey.
If you want simple answers, don't come on to a Christian board that recognises many flavours of Christian.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Or, seriously, can one be a Christian but not on the way to the Heavenly Realms?
"Christian" does not mean "Person who is saved." There are Christians who will be cast out, and non-Christians who could be saved in the end.
God decrees that a person is a Christian in baptism, and I praise God that no human faithlessness or failure can annul God's decrees. But it is not a free ticket into heaven either.
[ 12. October 2012, 21:31: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
AFAIK, the RCC (my lot) does not pronounce on the *non-Christianity* of anyone - only proclaims the fullness of faith may be found in her.
Oh, now you're just being modest.
Seriously, the game of "who's in, who's out, who's burnt at the stake?" is one of the historically most popular Christian passtimes.
quite - but that's wot the catechism sez innit
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Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth. - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I can think of a few individuals I have my suspicions about, particularly American politicians, but I simply daren't name them. I could be wrong.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
What I mean is there may be some who simply feign christianity to gain votes from the Bible Belt (for example) but in reality don't believe a word of it.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Go on then, tell me who you don't consider to be a Christian (that self-identifies as one) and why.
I'll get my coat.
Not my pay grade.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I can talk about beliefs that are not Christian beliefs. The beliefs of the Watchtower Society are not Christian. The beliefs of the CoJCoLDS are not Christian. The beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ, Scientist are not Christian.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
According to the ancient belief of the Church, unbaptized people aren't Christians.
So where does that leave the Salvation Army?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
And what about Mormons?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Go on then, tell me who you don't consider to be a Christian (that self-identifies as one) and why.
Well, there ARE a few, but in the end my opinion doesn't really matter.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
According to the ancient belief of the Church, unbaptized people aren't Christians.
So where does that leave the Salvation Army?
Oh god, let's not have this fight again.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
That is a bit of a dead horse. Or is it trolling?
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I can think of a few individuals I have my suspicions about, particularly American politicians, but I simply daren't name them. I could be wrong.
I think you will find Richard Dawkins agrees with you on that.
In reply to to an earlier suggestion on baptism as a requirement, that would also leave out Quakers, ancient and modern.
As a non-Christian, if they call themselves Christians (or consider Jesus as lord), then I consider them Christian. I leave it up to the various denominations to define who is in or out of their denomination (e.g., Latter Day Saints, Church of England, ...).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh god, let's not have this fight again.
No need to worry. I assure you I have no intention of having that fight again.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
In reply to to an earlier suggestion on baptism as a requirement, that would also leave out Quakers, ancient and modern.
I had understood from past conversations that Quakers didn't necessarily identify themselves as Christians. As in, there might be some Quakers who are Christians, but there are also Quakers who aren't.
I could have that completely screwed up, of course.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
In reply to to an earlier suggestion on baptism as a requirement, that would also leave out Quakers, ancient and modern.
I had understood from past conversations that Quakers didn't necessarily identify themselves as Christians. As in, there might be some Quakers who are Christians, but there are also Quakers who aren't.
I could have that completely screwed up, of course.
Quakers vary but I would say only in the last century would a small minority say they aren't Christians. However the most liberal meetings aren't likely to throw someone out for not considering themselves a Christian. Conservative meetings such as in Kenya (the country with the largest Quaker population in the world) likely would. I sometimes find it interesting to browse various "Faith and Practice" (most yearly meetings publish these and they express the sense of that meeting).
The Britain Yearly Meeting's Faith and Practice consists almost entirely of quotes (chapter 27 might be relevant since it discusses the Christian Church).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
...
As a non-Christian, if they call themselves Christians (or consider Jesus as lord), then I consider them Christian. ...
I think most discrete Christian denominations these days have a fairly tolerant conception of what it takes to be a Christian. However, some may be much more rigorous in defining which Church truly represents the fullness of Christian truth. Of course, there are always organisations which are totally exclusive.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Go on then, tell me who you don't consider to be a Christian (that self-identifies as one) and why.
Nobody.
If someone tells me they are a Christian I believe them. Why should I not?
I no longer tell people I am a Christian as the common perception of the label is homophobic, anti women, YEC, and PSA - none of which are part of my beliefs. So, I don't use the label for myself any more.
Labels mean very little, it's how people speak and behave which matter imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Go on then, tell me who you don't consider to be a Christian (that self-identifies as one) and why.
Nobody.
If someone tells me they are a Christian I believe them. Why should I not?
I no longer tell people I am a Christian as the common perception of the label is homophobic, anti women, YEC, and PSA - none of which are part of my beliefs. So, I don't use the label for myself any more.
Labels mean very little, it's how people speak and behave which matter imo.
Oooh no Boogie, if you don't identify yourself as a Christian, then the term will be left to the homophobic, anti women, YEC and PSA brigade, let's reclaim the name!
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I can think of a few individuals I have my suspicions about, particularly American politicians, but I simply daren't name them. I could be wrong.
I think you will find Richard Dawkins agrees with you on that.
Maybe, but there is a big difference:
- Richard Dawkins will name such people, and he will consider such a position as a betrayal of his humanist/atheist brothers and sisters.
- I would consider such a position as a betrayal of my fellow christian brothers and sisters
btw. I wouldn't say the same of british politicians - I think, where christian allegiance is concerned they are what they say they are.
What could possibly be achieved by Tony Blair, Iian Duncan Smith, Anne Widdecombe et all, saying they are christians when it isn't true?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
If someone tells me they are a Christian, I treat them as a Christian.
Jesus judges, not me, and we're told that he judges according to whether people have a relationship with him, whether their names are written in the book of life, and how they treat other Christians.
We're also told (and it's pretty obvious) that there are people who claim to be Christians but don't know Jesus and don't love his church. Can I point to individual cases of that? I'm not going to, because I never know all the facts.
[ 13. October 2012, 10:07: Message edited by: Custard ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I tend to agree with custard. Who is, or isn't, a Christian is not for me to say. Although I am constantly surprised to hear from others here, and elsewhere, that, as a Catholic, I am not a Christian.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
@Custard:
[TANGENT]
I loved your blog! (I don't say that about many blogs):
Custardy Blog
I'm just wondering whether, if you'd been my vicar, I wouldn't have left the Church of England!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
[/TANGENT]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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