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Source: (consider it) Thread: Gracefully dealing with interim ministry
Olaf
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My congregation has been through a prolonged interregnum. We have been through a handful of interim clergy.

They typically move in and commence to making our worship service into what they know and are familiar with--their hymn preferences, their repositioning of liturgical elements (we follow the book, they don't), etc.

Does anyone have advice for dealing gracefully with this situation? We don't want to burn bridges, but the fact is that we are doctrinally and liturgically quite in line with the denomination, and we would prefer to keep it that way. So far, we have "caved" on a couple of issues, and it is starting to add up as we move to different interims.

Is there a good way to handle this? (It is between us and the interim. Assume no oversight for this issue.)

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The Silent Acolyte

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What is Lutheran polity? Who has responsibility over the liturgy?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

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The United Church of Canada has two kinds of clergy for interregnums: Supply Ministers and Interim Ministers.

Supply Ministers are there for a stated term, usually six months, to provide Sunday Worship, coverage of funerals and weddings and the usual Pastoral Care. They do not change things. They are not expected to change things. Presbytery would not look kindly on reports of changes going on during a Supply period.

Interim Ministers are ministers for change. They are tasked to be with a congregation for six months to two years to help a church in difficulty find its feet, grieve the end of a pastoral relationship and find a healthy basis for a new one. Sure, it sounds all new-agey but it boils down to righting troubled churches with histories of conflict and stagnation.

Interim ministers produce a report at the end of their term on what a congregation should do moving forward. The last Interim Minister my congregation had recommended we move to a Church Council (Session 2.0), which we have and it's working well.

I'd say most United Church members aren't very liturgical (I'm an outlier, eh? [Big Grin] ) so they wouldn't mind minor changes. But legally speaking, the Minister can't change a thing with regards to the Order of Service without the approval of Session. She may compose a sermon on any topic she likes, but the Order of Worship is the purview of Session, period. In an interregnum the Session *should* be front and centre anyhow.

Still, in a more liturgical tradition like ELCA, I'm surprised the default isn't understood to be the Official Order From The Book.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Kayarecee
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In many cases in the ELCA, the default is either the Official Order From the Book with a few local traditions adhering to that most ancient and venerable of rubrics, "We've always done it that way," or the Official Order From the Old Book, or From the One Before That. While our rubrics are flexible enough (virtually everything in the newest hymnal is "X may be done" or "this or another appropriate prayer may be used") that these changes usually fall within their scope, it does occasionally grate some folks a bit when the black isn't said and the red isn't done, for no reason other than the pastor (or one or two people on the Music and Worship committee) like it that way.

To Olaf's question, maybe this is the last few remaining shreds of my naivete that seminary and internship haven't stripped me of yet, but I would think that the first step would be, if representatives from the congregation (such as the aforementioned committee) feel strongly, to speak to the interim, calmly, openly, and without accusation, about your concerns. Maybe your interims don't realize that the liturgical changes they're incorporating are causing stress and frustration. Or maybe (probably not in the case of moving the liturgy away from the standard in the printed books, but for other issues where "we've always done it that way" is happening) the pastor has a good reason for making the changes, and can explain and justify that reason. Either way, open and frank discussion is the necessary first step, and from my experiences in an ELCA congregation that went through a string of interims, it doesn't happen near as much as it should.

Of course, knowing some of the ELCA pastors I've known, it's possible that they'd listen to the concerns, and dismiss them and keep doing things the way they've been. In that case, I'm not sure what the next step would be.

[ 23. October 2012, 11:05: Message edited by: Kayarecee ]

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Barefoot Friar

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I've never been a Lutheran, and I've never been an interim pastor, but I'll give it a shot.

Let me first put myself in the interim pastor's shoes. If I were sent (or called... I don't know how y'all do that) to your church, I'd be having a discussion with the lay leadership before I even began, or at the very least within the first few weeks. Since I'm United Methodist I'm thinking Pastor-Parish Relations, but I'm sure ELCA polity is different. Still, it would be imperative for me to ask some questions, such as "what things do you value?" and "what can I do to help this interregnum time move as smoothly as possible?" Of course part of that would be listening to the people tell me about their service and why they do things the way they do them. Then, if that raised my concerns about the way things are done, we could begin to talk about it.

I am not an interim, but I still waited a while before making any changes, and when I did I didn't actually cut anything -- I just rearranged it all into the denominational standard, and added a thing or two. But I spent two and a half months just getting to know them, and allowing them to get to know me. I didn't follow the RCL during the summer; instead I preached a series of sermons that highlighted things that I thought were important. Once I had that momentum going and had had a couple of key conversations with lay leaders, I proposed an experiment, which would last a defined amount of time and could be changed if it just didn't fit. I did not change anything at all until that point, except that I re-named a few things in the bulletin (and told everyone what and why).

My impression is that these interim pastors aren't really trying to get to know the people. They're just there for a certain amount of time, and that's about it. They probably don't know the stress they are causing over worship. If the next one (or the current one, for that matter) doesn't think to call a meeting with the leadership, the leadership should call one with him/her.

Ok, looking at this from the laity side. I can see that a bit of flexibility is needed when dealing with a situation like this. There are some things that matter, and some things that don't, and occasionally we do get attached to things that don't, while failing to care about the things that do. So after I had prayerfully considered that I might be wrong, and after I had asked for discernment, I would then go and talk to the pastor. Preferably with several other lay leaders of the congregation. It would be as nice and non-threatening as possible.

I would explain the items that we as a church value, that the worship order comes from denominational resources, and that all of those elements working together help us to see and worship God. I would make it clear that, while we can make some changes and still be able to worship, that particular style and order has been the best one for us, and since we've tried other things that didn't work as well, we would like to stay with the proven, workable order. St. Paul wrote, "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1Cor. 14:40).

I would then ask him why he thought such changes are necessary. He might actually have a good answer, which then I could take under consideration. But if his answers didn't satisfy me then we could talk about each item, and I could hopefully persuade him to lead the service as written, or as we had previously been doing it. I would expect to have good reasons for why, other than "we've always done it that way!". If I want him to reason out changes, I should be able to do so as well. Point to Scripture, to tradition, to reason, and to experience. Well, I'm Wesleyan, so of course I'd use the quadrilateral. [Big Grin] Still, it's a good tool to use.

At the end I would know one of two things: Either that my interim pastor really cares about the church and its needs during a difficult interregnum time, or that the pastor is just here drawing a paycheck. And if it's the latter, maybe we can take steps to deal with that. Note that I can get a "no" answer and still feel as though the pastor really cares. It depends on the pastor's attitude and grace.

Blessings.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Cottontail

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From the other point of view ...

I was recently a locum minister, serving in a church for a year before it called a new minister. The church itself had been through a difficult time: the previous ministry had been both very active and very brief, introducing many changes and then leaving before these got settled in. So I was immediately faced with equal and opposite pressures from the congregation. Speaking generally, the younger generations had loved those changes and many had joined the church because of them; the older ones had hated them, especially the new hymnbook the previous minister had imposed, often flinging 5 new hymns at a time at them. I quickly faced a strong pressure from some of the stalwarts to go back to the old hymn book.

Added to that, I found some odd liturgical details. There was a sharing of the peace at the beginning of the service: the older generations hated it, especially as it had become a bit of a free-for-all; and the younger generations loved it. They had a strange habit at the end of the service of announcing "The Bible goes before us into the world" as the Bible was taken out - theological nonsense, IMO. Then they would bow at the table/minister as they left (very bad form in our tradition). And they used any number of Bible translations, according to the preference of the reader (because they had never liked the NEB pew Bibles), and no one knew how to announce or conclude a lesson.

So I changed things. I had to. I won't go into detail of all the decisions I made, but believe me, my own preferences were not the overriding impetus. Rather, my decisions were made with the intent of balancing the many and various needs in the congregation, and according to what I understood to be a dignified and theologically intelligent offering of worship to God.

All of which (forgive me, Olaf), makes me rather suspicious of the "We" in whose voice you speak. Who is this "We"? Are you confident it includes everybody? - that no one is speaking to your interim ministers with a different voice? I do sympathise with the constant changes your congregation is facing. But may I ask: is every minister making different changes? Or are many of the changes in a similar direction? - which may mean each is diagnosing a similar situation.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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cliffdweller
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Just summing up:

The purpose of an interim pastorate is to prepare the congregation for the next pastorate. As was noted upthread, interims play a vital role in healing wounds and bringing an often divided congregation together. I currently serve a congregation that chose to eschew a traditional interim, and spent two years with a series of pulpit supply preachers who gave excellent sermons but, since they had no relation to the congregation, no pastoral relevance. Huge, huge mistake IMHO.

There's something of a divide among interim pastorates on what their ministry of preparation should look like:

1. Change as little as possible, keeping the ground clear for the new pastor. Focus just on loving people, holding things together, healing wounds and divisions.

2. Do the dirty work so the new pastor doesn't have to. Figure out (hopefully prayerfully) what needs to change, get in there and do it, let people hate you for it, so that the pain of change won't be associated with the new pastor.

It's a hard call to make. I think to some degree it has to do with personality-- are you driven more by the desire to "run things" (#2) or are you a people pleaser (#1)? But really comes down to how obvious and important the needed changes might be. Although some might argue for change for change's sake in the case of an calcified congregation-- just getting them used to doing new things and realizing the roof didn't fall in.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Angloid
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It's probably more common in the C of E for a vacancy to be covered by a number of clergy, unless it is envisaged to go on for a long time in which case the Bishop might appoint an interim priest-in-charge.

So unless there is consensus between these clergy, and at least the key laity of the parish, no liturgical changes are likely to happen. Pastoral and other non-liturgical ones will no doubt happen by default, owing to the absence of a resident priest, and will need to be addressed by, probably, the churchwardens and PCC together with the archdeacon.

Along with a couple of others, I have recently covered an interregnum in a lovely parish with a devout and committed congregation, which had inherited a dogs breakfast of a liturgy. Much of it 'illegal' according to canon law. But I (and presumably my colleagues, including the archdeacon) gritted my teeth and got on with it. It was much more important to the people to have priests who cared for them and encouraged their prayer and worship in the way they had come to expect, than that they (the priests) should create dissension and unease by unilateral tinkering. The same should happen, only more so, when the parish is doing things 'by the book' that the temporary priest might want to change.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Circuit Rider

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I think for the most part cliffdweller is right. The interim pastor prepares the church for the next pastor. If I were in that place I would think it best to go by the book, only changing what the last pastor did to get back to basics. New person will come in and add personal touches.

Sometimes, however, I have seen and heard about interim pastors sent in specifically to make needed changes to prepare for the next person. Interim makes institutional changes, takes the hits knowing they will be short-lived, and moves on when permanent pastor shows up.

It seems Olaf is describing a series of interim people adding their own little flourishes to make things interesting for themselves. I might suggest that the interim committee (whatever it may be called) have a sit-down with each interim and make the case that continual change during the interregnum is dealing fits with the congregation and that we know the permanent pastor will make changes. We would plead that the service be made basic and by-the-book, sans the flourishes and personal touches of the departed and beloved pastor.

My two cents, anyway.

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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
My congregation has been through a prolonged interregnum. We have been through a handful of interim clergy.

They typically move in and commence to making our worship service into what they know and are familiar with--their hymn preferences, their repositioning of liturgical elements (we follow the book, they don't), etc.

Does anyone have advice for dealing gracefully with this situation? We don't want to burn bridges, but the fact is that we are doctrinally and liturgically quite in line with the denomination, and we would prefer to keep it that way. So far, we have "caved" on a couple of issues, and it is starting to add up as we move to different interims.

Is there a good way to handle this? (It is between us and the interim. Assume no oversight for this issue.)

Get your corporate act together and complain about this situation to whoever sends these interim clergy. Put it in writing. Be specific but not long winded.

Generally speaking, interim periods are not good times to be mucking about with changes. The time to begin any change is at least one year after the arrival of a new, permanent pastor.
*

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
All of which (forgive me, Olaf), makes me rather suspicious of the "We" in whose voice you speak. Who is this "We"? Are you confident it includes everybody? - that no one is speaking to your interim ministers with a different voice?

Good question. There is a committee, but it is a drop-in committee. Anybody can show up. We also work with the church council, volunteer staff, and altar guild. It may not include everybody, but everybody does have a chance for input.

For the purposes of this thread, I'm especially meaning interims that storm in and make changes on their first few weeks with us, very often week 1 and week 2. These are clearly personal changes, not prompted by the congregation.

No, the changes are not in a similar direction. We are actually quite open to discussing change, and occasionally implementing it if that is the consensus, but not to Executive Order.

Most of the changes have been changes to the order, and not the content, of the service. For instance, one pastor prefers a hymn before the sermon, another likes the announcements elsewhere, another would prefer the service to be mostly sermon and chops congregational acts such as singing the Gloria.

The Silent Acolyte, the ELCA has no rules about who is in charge.

cliffdweller et al., the only change the interims are supposed to make is to bring a congregation to weekly Holy Communion, to spare the next full-timer the blame. Anything else should not be tinkered with. That said, there is no recourse for those who do.

To add to our situation, we came from an unfortunate pastorate that decimated the congregation. During the interim period, the congregation has increased in active membership and weekly attendance by almost 20%. During our most recent interim period before this one, we had a pastor who changed everything to his desires, and the attendance plummeted to dangerous lows.

We may be an interim's nightmare. Many want to come in and change the status quo for the sake of change. All pastors have different personal issues with the service, most of them related to what they have done in past churches, and there is little point in accommodating each interim's every personal whim, when the next will just have different whims. Nevertheless, we are open to discussion and amenable to productive change. Some people just impose what they want.

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Nick Tamen

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Olaf, I don't know enough about ELCA polity to know, but is this something where the bishop or someone at Synod could be helpful? I know in my experience in the PC(USA), presbytery (through its Committee on Ministry) would consult, or at least be available to do so, with interims about the needs anf challenges of a congregation, as of course would the session.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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PaulBC
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In the Anglican Church of Canada the local bishop will call upon a retired priest to stand while a new rector is looked for . This can take 2 months as in my current parish'e experience or 2+ yaears , as in the expperience of a former parish .
All Priests in charge in my experience have been told to change things as little as possible , leave changes to the new rector .
To my Lutherans friends hang in there a new pastor shall arise. [Votive] [Angel] [Smile]

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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
[QUOTE]
The Silent Acolyte, the ELCA has no rules about who is in charge.

cliffdweller et al., the only change the interims are supposed to make is to bring a congregation to weekly Holy Communion, to spare the next full-timer the blame. Anything else should not be tinkered with. That said, there is no recourse for those who do.

If the ECLA has no rules about who's in charge, then how can you say what the interims are or are not supposed to do?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gee D
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Olaf , who is it who decides who is to be the interim minister? Is it possible for a parish Council to write to whoever it is, and say that the person the Parish is looking to have will have qualities a, b and c, including retaining the Parish's present churchmanship, and describe that in some detail.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Olaf , who is it who decides who is to be the interim minister? Is it possible for a parish Council to write to whoever it is, and say that the person the Parish is looking to have will have qualities a, b and c, including retaining the Parish's present churchmanship, and describe that in some detail.

This is basically how our church did it. Our Episcopal diocese insists that it be done this way and works closely with the parish. There are some priests who are specially trained as interims. Some of them like challenging situations where there is dissension in a parish.

One candidate for interim in our parish said that he liked us very much, but the job would be too easy. We had only the normal amount of friction; basically we liked each other.

What we had to get used to was the fact that our rector, who had been a professional singer and actress, was no longer there to organize theatrical events. The interim was a pleasant, capable, low-key woman who helped us get used to the fact that the past was past. Then we called a man who is an excellent match for our parish; I'm sure it would have been harder for him to fit in if anyone had expected him to do things the way the former permanent rector had done.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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