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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Michael Gove not fit for purpose
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Education minister Michael Gove has written an open letter, published in the new radio Times, to one of his former schoolmasters.
Three of his sentences begin with 'Because'.
Four with 'But'.
Five with 'And'.
One sentence has no verb.
Having taught English Language to O'level, CSE and GCSE, and having been ranked 'most normal marker' in moderation trials, I can assert confidently that Gove would not pass O'level, not CSE Grade 1, not GCSE grade C (and that, before the bar was raised.)
What confidence can we have in him to do his job?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I've no time for Gove and think he's a disaster politically. But although it's a long time since I marked a GCSE English paper I would never have criticised such usages. They are not 'wrong', just offend certain pedants' ideas of what is correct English. The tragedy is not Gove's English style but his Gradgrindian policies. If he has incorporated these into rules for GCSE marking he is even more of a hypocrite than most Tories. But then we knew that.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I didn't have any confidence in him to do any part of his job before you posted that!
But how do you get rid of him? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
(Answers on a postcard, please)
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I didn't have any confidence in him to do any part of his job before you posted that!
But how do you get rid of him?
(Answers on a postcard, please)
The Ripley Doctrine?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
No he's not.
I'm having a hard time deciding who's worst, Gove or Hunt...
On the other hand, he fits right into to this government as none of them are fit for purpose.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
But..but..but..but..and..and..and..and..and..
Because..
Maybe he is just making up time for being ignored as an annoying little shit all his life.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I have mixed feelings about Gove, but I agree with Angloid that none of those things are errors. Bad style perhaps.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I have mixed feelings about Gove, but I agree with Angloid that none of those things are errors. Bad style perhaps.
Tolkien's committed them all, I think...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Dal Segno
al Fine
# 14673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I have mixed feelings about Gove, but I agree with Angloid that none of those things are errors. Bad style perhaps.
Not even bad style if he communicates his ideas clearly.
On the other hand, a sentence without a verb?
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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
Posts: 1200 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Three of his sentences begin with 'Because'.
Four with 'But'.
Five with 'And'.
One sentence has no verb.
Two of yours don't have verbs either, sorry to have to point this out.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I use sentences with all sorts of wrong grammar, and I'm a filthy pro writer.
Gove, however, is not, and should be sent to the Tower forthwith.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
It's not the 'ands' that I object to, but the so called apology which makes it clear that he still considers his former self so clever that he was able to interrupt lessons, sabotage a young teacher and on the way stop others from learning. Loathsome toad.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
What confidence can we have in him to do his job?
I don't know this character and clearly there's some history here, but this is what you're objecting to?
Are you sure he wasn't a product of the American educational system where you're sometimes not allowed to teach what a complete sentence is?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
This is the man we're talking about. He displays the arrogance one has come to expect of Tory politicians, and appears to want to bring back the Britain that Charles Dickens challenged 150 years ago. He is one of the worst examples in the present Cabinet, demonstrated by his many self-contradictory proposals. For example, he seeks to prescribe in more and more detail what should and should not be included in the national curriculum, and at the same time wants to see more (he would prefer all) schools opt out of state control altogether.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Because I am a great fan of Michael Gove you might think anything I say is worthless. And I haven't read Gove's letter. But so what?
I have every confidence in Gove to do his job though the idea of the open letter is a little cringeworthy.
I'm not sure about this line, though:
quote:
I can assert confidently that Gove would not pass O'level, not CSE Grade 1, not GCSE grade C (and that, before the bar was raised.)
Can you? When I were a lad (in the mid-1990s) somewhere between 5 - 10% of GCSE English Grades were for Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar, which is not to be sniffed at, but not the difference between an A and a D. And I doubt that all of those marks would have been deducted for starting a sentence with 'and' (which is arguably perfectly acceptable). Care to elaborate on why you are so confident?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
For example, he seeks to prescribe in more and more detail what should and should not be included in the national curriculum, and at the same time wants to see more (he would prefer all) schools opt out of state control altogether.
Ah. I assume he's one of those politicians who is just obnoxious. In the US that would actually be a decent policy recommendation.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Pic here: Michael Gove
And here.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
"Don't start a sentence with 'Because,' 'And,' or 'But' are rules that we teach children to avoid them making sentence fragment errors. It's like telling them you can't subtract a larger number from a smaller one -- a rule they will learn isn't really a rule once they're more familiar with the subject. Any grown-up writer knows that you can write a perfectly acceptable sentence beginning with any of those words so long as it contains a subject and predicate. (I agree about the sentence with no verb, though; that's not a sentence. But there are places where sentence fragments can appropriately be used for effect).
If writing sentence fragments were the worst thing your Minister of Education had ever done it would be trivial. But I rather gather it's not, at least in your opinion, his worst offense.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It is a pity he does not seem to regard it as his duty and mission to take on and revive the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament. Their need is greater than ours.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But I rather gather it's not, at least in your opinion, his worst offense. [/QB]
Or even offence, writes Mr Pedant...!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Several of the supposed errors in the OP aren't actually errors at all, but stylistic preferences. The idea that you can't start a sentence with a conjunction is a myth.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But I rather gather it's not, at least in your opinion, his worst offense.
Or even offence, writes Mr Pedant...!
[/QB]
True; I plead guilty to the awful Canadian habit of using British spelling most of the time but occasionally using the American for no apparent reason other that it was the first spelling that occurred to me.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
On the other hand, a sentence without a verb?
I saw what you did there.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I have mixed feelings about Gove, but I agree with Angloid that none of those things are errors. Bad style perhaps.
Not even bad style if he communicates his ideas clearly.
I have an anally retentive objection to sentences that start with 'and' because they seem to me a lazy way of making your prose sound dramatic without actually doing any work for it. But I've less objection to 'but'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I would trust Gove to do his job far more than I would trust someone who thinks using "but" at the start of a sentence is sufficient to disqualify someone from high office.
Seriously, which of those two is more likely to be an elitist snob who doesn't want anyone from the lower echelons of society to ever get near the reins of power? I'd say it's the linguistic pedant, myself.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Now, now, Marvin, just because leo picked on a pedantically nitpicking reason to point the finger at Michael Gove doesn't mean that Michael Gove is doing a good job.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Now, now, Marvin, just because leo picked on a pedantically nitpicking reason to point the finger at Michael Gove doesn't mean that Michael Gove is doing a good job.
Such was not my suggestion.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've no great problems with Michael Gove's grammar. It's him that is the problem.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
He is one of the worst examples in the present Cabinet, demonstrated by his many self-contradictory proposals. For example, he seeks to prescribe in more and more detail what should and should not be included in the national curriculum, and at the same time wants to see more (he would prefer all) schools opt out of state control altogether.
No, no, no. He wants schools to opt out of local authority control, the better to control them himself. There is no contradiction.
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's the Tory paradox, isn't it? They want a smaller state, and decentralization, except for those bits that they want to control with an iron fist from the centre. Makes perfect sense.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
The Tory frustration I imagine (and it's probably one the likes of David Blunkett felt too) is that having been elected to office they can't do anything to the education system because left-wing Local Education Authorities constantly get in the way. I don't blame him for wanting to brush them aside.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Because I am a great fan of Michael Gove you might think anything I say is worthless. And I haven't read Gove's letter. But so what?
I have every confidence in Gove to do his job though the idea of the open letter is a little cringeworthy.
I'm not sure about this line, though:
quote:
I can assert confidently that Gove would not pass O'level, not CSE Grade 1, not GCSE grade C (and that, before the bar was raised.)
Can you? When I were a lad (in the mid-1990s) somewhere between 5 - 10% of GCSE English Grades were for Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar, which is not to be sniffed at, but not the difference between an A and a D. And I doubt that all of those marks would have been deducted for starting a sentence with 'and' (which is arguably perfectly acceptable). Care to elaborate on why you are so confident?
I no longer have the marking schemes but coursework has grade descriptors. A candidate could not achieve anything higher than a D (in the Language or the combined, not the Literature) without proper sentence construction.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Tory frustration I imagine (and it's probably one the likes of David Blunkett felt too) is that having been elected to office they can't do anything to the education system because left-wing Local Education Authorities constantly get in the way.
But, since LEAs are a function of democratically elected local councils, surely their left-wingness reflects the wishes of the local people?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I have mixed feelings about Gove, but I agree with Angloid that none of those things are errors. Bad style perhaps.
Gove says he wants to root out bad style. he hates anything 'modern' or casual.
quote:
While using a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence can add emphasis, it’s an informal means of doing so. You can use it in creative or personal writing, but it’s not recommended for formal writing.
says this 'advice'
He has put Latin in the EBaC BUT quote:
It may offend the stipulations of Latin prose composition to begin a sentence with a conjunction..... More often than not, the author simply doesn't seem comfortable writing a compound or complex sentence.
says this advice.
If he cannot write a 'complex sentence', how dare he tell teachers how to teach English?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Three of his sentences begin with 'Because'.
Four with 'But'.
Five with 'And'.
One sentence has no verb.
Two of yours don't have verbs either, sorry to have to point this out.
Guilty - I should have have ended the first (current) sentence with a semi-colon and the next two should have been a list.
Gove's bad (or weak) grammar is obviously contagious.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
But..but..but..but..and..and..and..and..and..
Because..
Maybe he is just making up time for being ignored as an annoying little shit all his life.
Indeed - according to this, quote:
A sentence beginning with and or but will tend to draw attention to itself
. So Gove is an attention-seeking as well as a nasty piece of work.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
If the man is genuinely doing a bad job (as many UK shipmates seem to think), your best method of proving this does not involve being petty about sentence structure.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
On the other hand, a sentence without a verb?
"As teaching and learning get better - year by year - in our schools."
There IS a verb but starting the sentence with 'As' shifts subject and object in such a way that it doesn't read correctly.
Why not substitute 'improve' for 'get better'?
I may appear pedantic, perhaps because I did my PGCE in 1974 (second subject English) and it has been seven years since I taught English but fourteen out of his twenty-sex sentences start with a conjunction.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
On the other hand, a sentence without a verb?
"As teaching and learning get better - year by year - in our schools."
There IS a verb but starting the sentence with 'As' shifts subject and object in such a way that it doesn't read correctly.
Why not substitute 'improve' for 'get better'?
I may appear pedantic, perhaps because I did my PGCE in 1974 (second subject English) and it has been seven years since I taught English but fourteen out of his twenty-sex sentences start with a conjunction.
The sentence doesn't read correctly because "as" introduces a subordinate clause, so there's no main verb in the sentence itself.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Thank you - I thought there was a proper description of what he had done.
I had coffee with a friend of mine who is a basic skills adult ed. teacher on his way home from work.
He agreed with my alleged pedantry. On his checklist from the dept. of ed., Gove's letter would be subject to multiple redrafting before they'd even enter someone for GCSE.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
fourteen out of his twenty-sex sentences start with a conjunction.
Now, now. Even I don't believe that Gove deserves imprisonment for perverted practices, certainly not twenty times.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Thank you - I thought there was a proper description of what he had done.
I had coffee with a friend of mine who is a basic skills adult ed. teacher on his way home from work.
He agreed with my alleged pedantry. On his checklist from the dept. of ed., Gove's letter would be subject to multiple redrafting before they'd even enter someone for GCSE.
"Teacher agrees that Michael Gove has shortcomings".
Clearly the latest from the "No Sh!t Sherlock" files.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I haven't seen the full letter, only excerpts. Gove is three years younger than me, so would have followed the same English syllabus, and sat his Higher English three years after me. IIRC, starting a sentence with a conjunction was permissible, provided it was a complete sentence; not a fragment. Repeated use of conjunctions at the start of sentences would have been frowned upon, but occasion use was acceptable.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
It is a pity he does not seem to regard it as his duty and mission to take on and revive the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament. Their need is greater than ours.
I suspect Gove knows a lost cause when he sees one! Reforming the education system south of the border should be a piece of cake compared to reviving the Tories north of it.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
"What confidence can we have in him to do his job?"
Plenty, if he's allowed to. Gove seems the best person we've had at Education since before Shirley Williams and her ilk began the wrecking.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
So dv, you think that someone who is so out of touch with education in many UK schools that it can be said that:
quote:
[f]rom the age of 11, Gove never shared a desk with anyone who struggled to read and write, or who experienced school as an intimidating trauma instead of a golden ticket. "His prime concern is to make sure that there are safe schools in cities for people like him," says a columnist who has followed his career closely. "All this nonsense that free schools are free – they are not, they are Michael Gove schools. He is trying to create a system in which middle-class parents like him can make uses of the state system without having to mix with the rough boys."
and
quote:
"He is a High Tory control freak who wants to run every school in the country," counters the critic of Gove's "free" school rhetoric. "He hasn't got a localist bone in his body."
(from the Guardian article linked above)
Do you think Gove's policies are creating a system to provide a good universal education?
Or are you happy with the teaching of an elite of middle class children and leaving the rest to muddle along with the dregs?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Gove came up through a different system. He went to a state primary, then passed the entrance exam to Robert Gordon's College, which is an elitist school academically, but which isn't entirely middle class. If it were middle-class, Gove wouldn't have got in. Ok, there aren't any "rough" children at Gordon's; but you don't have to be posh to go there.
My kids are state-educated, and I'm a firm supporter of state education, but I know kids who go to Gordon's and I don't think of them as "an elite of middle class children."
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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