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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Magazine: Results of online sacraments survey
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
Now viewing here. The survey was never intended to be more than an introduction to the experiments we hope to start very soon, but all comments are nevertheless welcome.
[ 07. September 2012, 12:19: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I've forgotten what the poll questions looked like, is there a link?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
It's been a while, but I rather think I recognise one of the quotes you used. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I'm not sure where the survey was publicised and to what extent, but I don't think I share your apparent surprise about the denominational breakdown of the respondents on all counts. In sheer numbers, memorialist denoms are dwarfed by the ones you picked out, so it's no surprise that they didn't make up a large proportion of responses, especially as some people appear to have responded to say how much they hate the very concept.
It's a bit of a curiosity that there was such a huge Anglican response, though (probably CofE, given the strong UK response). This may be due to the Ship's theological and geographical leanings, and it's also possible that Anglicanism is so broad that it encompasses a lot of "hidden" memorialists, and more importantly, a lot of people who are interested in playing at the edges of traditional ideas.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
In sheer numbers, memorialist denoms are dwarfed by the ones you picked out
I think "dwarfed" is a bit of an overstatement unless we are looking at nominal Christians (which clearly wasn't the case). In the UK, it's true that the Anglican and RC church are the two largest denominations in terms of church attendance, but that's largely a reflection of church structure. Eg, from Wikipedia, Pentecostal, Baptist, Independent and New churches combined account for 29% of regular churchgoers compared with 28% Anglican. (Or, if you broke down "Anglican" into evangelical, liberal and traditional, you'd end up with groups comparable in size to the Baptists or the Pentecostals.) 59% of our mainly-regular-churchgoing sample was Anglican. That's surely about twice what you might expect based on the Wikipedia figures.
I'm sure that the demographic of the Ship had an effect on the sample too. But I still think that disproportionately high (and not especially negative) interest in online sacraments from regular attenders of denominations with a high sacramentality is quite surprising.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
There is possible sample bias, though. One might expect those who really hate the idea to refuse to even take part in the survey.
[ 05. September 2012, 17:16: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I didn't fill out the survey because, unfortunately, I never noticed it.
It's a scam reminding me of nothing so much as the thread "Pastor-blessed blackcurrant squash and olive oil will cure cancer etc." In some ways, it's the mirror image of that one. Its promoter probably did not use the word "sacrament" in his sales pitch, but in effect it purported to be one. Among the objections are (1) as a sacrament, it is an innovation made by a tiny sliver of the universal church, when any proposal of such significance ought to be deliberated and approved ecumenically; (2) the blessing is performed by a probably self-appointed individual who has not been sacramentally empowered by the church to confect it; (3) it is a money-making scheme.
In that case, a customer at least got something to eat. There was an outward and visible form. One gravely suspects that no inward and spiritual grace actually accompanied it. In this case, where is the outward and visible form? How can we even begin to discuss a sacramental inward and spiritual grace until we identify that? I think the idea is unworthy of the Ship.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I'm not entirely sure you can assume that Anglicans aren't memorialist just because they're Anglican. Speaking from the outside, a lot of the regular Anglican attendees I know would probably struggle to describe the memorial/sacramental differences, and generally have more of a memorialist outlook. Also, whilst officially memorialst, a lot of the Baptists I know consider communion to be a sacrament ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I think the idea is unworthy of the Ship.
So do I. I think I'd leave the Ship if this happened, so as not to be part of sacramental misuse/abuse.
I also think that any Anglican, orthodox or RC clergy who were involved would be in breach of their licenses.
[ 05. September 2012, 18:52: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
There is possible sample bias, though. One might expect those who really hate the idea to refuse to even take part in the survey.
One might, although some respondants certainly expressed strongly negative views.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I'm not entirely sure you can assume that Anglicans aren't memorialist just because they're Anglican. Speaking from the outside, a lot of the regular Anglican attendees I know would probably struggle to describe the memorial/sacramental differences, and generally have more of a memorialist outlook. Also, whilst officially memorialst, a lot of the Baptists I know consider communion to be a sacrament ...
Yes - that's where the more detailed questions about beliefs relating to communion will come in later.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Results of the survey: 69% were resident in the UK, with 20% in North America, 5% in the rest of Europe and 5% in Australasia.
[...]
In reality, 59% of respondants were Anglican, with 9% Catholic, 7% Methodist, 5% Reformed and 5% Baptist.
LOL, I guess that in both cases I'm under 'Other' ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I'm sure that the demographic of the Ship had an effect on the sample too. But I still think that disproportionately high (and not especially negative) interest in online sacraments from regular attenders of denominations with a high sacramentality is quite surprising.
Fair point on the breakdown of numbers by denomination - I was thinking that your sample more or less reflected the base population, but may have overstated my case a bit. I'm not so sure you can easily call Anglicanism a denomination with a high sacramentality, though.
Obviously, officially Anglicans are very sacramental, but as a broad church, there's a wide spectrum of high to low, with a lot of initiatives around the margins. Some churches/congregants only pay lip-service to the official sacramental line, and (whisper it) some Anglican churches are to all intents and purposes memorialist. Those Anglican memorialists are "hidden", but they definitely exist.
I wonder if that could explain it - those who are particularly interested are the people who want to explore ideas and approaches that appeal to them in some way, but who wouldn't be allowed to do that (at least, not officially) within their own tradition.
Just speculating off the top of my head, and probably talking rubbish.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I wonder if that could explain it - those who are particularly interested are the people who want to explore ideas and approaches that appeal to them in some way, but who wouldn't be allowed to do that (at least, not officially) within their own tradition.
I certainly accept that not all anglicans are high sacramentalists, and that some baptists have quite a high sacramentality. That was one of the points I tried to make in my first article - that the official denominational statements about sacraments on which ecumenical understanding apparently depends do not necessarily have anything much to do with what is believed and practised by many Christians.
My impression when looking at the results by denomination was that at least some of the anglicans who wanted to see how the experiments worked felt that way because, for them, sacramentality was a key part of their faith and they wondered - sometimes notwithstanding theological and liturgical concerns - whether sacramentality could extend to the online realm. (I didn't provide a breakdown of results by denomination because, with the exception of anglicans, there wasn't enough data to say anything meaningful.)
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think it has value in that people like to try things out before committing themselves these days - it will be possible for someone not sure about going to church and taking communion to experience what it is like online - if they find it beneficial they are more likely to go to a real church and take part.
So - apart from the inevitable silly nonnies who will pee about (as in every situation, including Church of Fools) - I'm optimistic.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Both Ship of Fools and the concept of online worship are new to me. I have read the article and survey, though after the survey was closed, and was both fascinated and confused.
I may represent a gray area of people who attend church more or less regularly but who are not attracted by the social interactions. My most powerful experiences with the Eucharist have been in large churches in cities (often foreign to me) in which I knew no one and was able to focus on the ritual without distraction. Anonymity in the midst of people makes me feel closer to God, and more exposed to God. I am aware of those around me and get comfort from that. But I do not have to relate to them as complex personalities. It is a time of being alone in the midst of other humans, which -- oddly -- makes me feel more exposed to God.
So what about on-line communion? I have come to believe strongly in the importance of an insight of Roger Scruton's, taken from another context: "The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations." The analogy of my own preferred worship experience with on-line communities is greater than I would have imagined. The Eucharist, however, is another thing. For me, it is the central experience of communal worship. The one time I am wholly within the experience of worship and wholly moved by it.
I am one of those in the Anglican tradition who is actually a memorialist, though willing to speak the words of the liturgy which suggest otherwise. "Take. Eat. [and} .. do this in remembrance of me" are the heart of the matter.
"Take. Eat." imply real action. Someone is giving us the bread and wine -- real bread, real wine -- just as Jesus did. I do not require that this other be a priest, but I find that I do require that the act of giving be a real one.
That's the key hurdle for me. The Eucharist is an action, beautifully set in the middle of a liturgy which often comes across as wordswordswords.
How can you replicate that aspect of the Table -- or find a way to suggest it at least -- in the context of even the most interactive computer network?
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
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