Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Some early Christians may have believed Jesus was married
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
For anyone interested, from King's paper:
"The aim of this analysis is not to reconstruct the historical Jesus, that is, to argue whether the historical Jesus had a wife or was celibate. The material discussed below provides no reliable historical information for that discussion. Nor do I argue that historically there is any evidence that if Jesus was married, it was to Mary Magdalene. She appears in the most reliable historical information as a prominent disciple of Jesus. Rather, the importance of the Gospel of Jesus’s Wife lies in supplying a new voice within the diverse chorus of early Christian traditions about Jesus that documents that some Christians depicted Jesus as married."
It's a pretty good read, if you're at all interested.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Age 30 seems to have been a commonly accepted age for full adulthood for Jewish males, based on rules about temple service and sacred taxes and what could be read when. Though since marriages had a lot of parental input, you could argue that earlier would be just fine if the money was there. Because of course grandchikdren would be along shortly...
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by no prophet: I'm not sure it matters if Jesus was married or not. Though all other data suggests not. We don't really know a lot of his personal life. Does it actually matter if he was or wasn't? Why?
I imagine it would matter to the churches that believe only unmarried celibate men can be priests.
Of course the RCC imposed the marriage ban on the presbytery rather late. The doctrine of our Lord's celibacy certainly didn't grow up in an atmosphere of unmarried priests.
No, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Quite the reverse: if the doctrine of unmarried priests grew up in the atmosphere of our Lord's celibacy (or even if, LATER ON, our Lord's celibacy was used as a post facto justification for having unmarried priests), then evidence that Jesus was married would undermine the rationale for unmarried priests.
I'm not saying that this little scrap of paper is some earth-shattering discovery, mind you. Let's be clear on that. The question was 'why would it matter', not 'has this in fact significantly changed the information available'. [ 20. September 2012, 03:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hawk: Gospel of Terry Chapter 3: vv17-21
Mary and joseph came to Jesus and Mary said "When are you going to get married, me and your father aren't getting any younger?" And Jesus said to them, "My wife is the Church." Mary said, "That's always your excuse. What about that nice Rachel from down the road?" Jesus said, "She will be able to be my disciple". Mary said: "Oh, is that what you young people call it these days?"
See, I can't help but read that as implying that Jesus was in the closet. Either that or a cad and a bounder.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
How are we using the word "disciple"? If it is to be limited to the 12, our lists make it clear that all were men. In the wider sense of those who accepted the teaching of Jesus, there were many more, starting with Joseph of Arimathea, and such people as Matthias. The Mary(s) would be part of this much larger group and Our Lord seems to have had no problem in accepting them - at least, we are not told that he refused to do so.
Given that, and given the limited nature of this papyrus, there is no novelty in accepting that Mary was a disciple and it is clearly quite possible that the missing words noted that, and made some other notation after "my wife" which could have shown all manner of things.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by Hawk: Gospel of Terry Chapter 3: vv17-21
Mary and joseph came to Jesus and Mary said "When are you going to get married, me and your father aren't getting any younger?" And Jesus said to them, "My wife is the Church." Mary said, "That's always your excuse. What about that nice Rachel from down the road?" Jesus said, "She will be able to be my disciple". Mary said: "Oh, is that what you young people call it these days?"
See, I can't help but read that as implying that Jesus was in the closet. Either that or a cad and a bounder.
My theory is that Mary stopped nagging Jesus to get married when he started hanging around down at the docks, striking up conversations with sailors.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: How are we using the word "disciple"? If it is to be limited to the 12, our lists make it clear that all were men.
The normal word for the 12 is "apostle", not "disciple".
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by Hawk: Gospel of Terry Chapter 3: vv17-21
Mary and joseph came to Jesus and Mary said "When are you going to get married, me and your father aren't getting any younger?" And Jesus said to them, "My wife is the Church." Mary said, "That's always your excuse. What about that nice Rachel from down the road?" Jesus said, "She will be able to be my disciple". Mary said: "Oh, is that what you young people call it these days?"
See, I can't help but read that as implying that Jesus was in the closet. Either that or a cad and a bounder.
My theory is that Mary stopped nagging Jesus to get married when he started hanging around down at the docks, striking up conversations with sailors.
that made me nearly choke over my keyboard!
-------------------- Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...: had he given up on the fishermen and moved on to the sailors then?
Fishermen sail; Peter's one attempt to walk home from work ended badly, as I recall.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
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Arminian
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# 16607
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Posted
I think its fairly obvious that if Jesus had of been married it would have been referenced in the gospels or Paul's writtings. What wife would manage not to stick her oar in somewhere worthy of note ?
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by Gee D: How are we using the word "disciple"? If it is to be limited to the 12, our lists make it clear that all were men.
The normal word for the 12 is "apostle", not "disciple".
I agree, but in the posts above and in the paper by Dr King, there is substantial confusion. There is also confusion that none of the disciples was a woman. Clealry, there were.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Arminian: I think its fairly obvious that if Jesus had of been married it would have been referenced in the gospels or Paul's writtings. What wife would manage not to stick her oar in somewhere worthy of note ?
I offer you the rather splendid Gospel of Mary Magdalene with an interesting introduction by Dr King.
According to this gnostic fragment, it was Mary who was the Disciple that Jesus Loved. And possibly something more..
Which goes to show something, though I'm not sure what. Not least about the career of Dr King, I suppose.
-------------------- "..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?” "..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
And another thing - according to this amateur Magdalene historian:
quote: There is quite a tradition within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints that not only was Jesus married, but he was married to multiple wives.
and then refers to a quotation she found from a book in that tradition (I'm just coping and pasting here, I'm not claiming this is authoritative or correct Mormon doctrine)
quote: “One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus — such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them — namely, Mary Magdalene. Now it would be natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were His wives.” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159)
Which is a) odd and b) interesting.
-------------------- "..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?” "..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: How are we using the word "disciple"? If it is to be limited to the 12, our lists make it clear that all were men.
Jesus chose twelve to be his apostles, but there were many others who followed him from place to place. At one point he sent out seventy to preach.
Luke 8:1-3 shows that women were among those who followed him. quote: Soon afterwards, He began going around from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the kingdom of God. The twelve were with Him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who were contributing to their support out of their private means.
Moo
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I suspect that even if Jesus was married, he would have subverted the institution of marriage just as much as he subverted everything else.
-------------------- Brian: You're all individuals! Crowd: We're all individuals! Lone voice: I'm not!
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Arminian: I think its fairly obvious that if Jesus had of been married it would have been referenced in the gospels or Paul's writtings. What wife would manage not to stick her oar in somewhere worthy of note ?
Well, Paul never met Jesus unless you count a "vision", and there's a fair amount of scholarly debate about how much of his life and teaching he knew about, seeing that he was writing before the earliest gospels. As for the gospels, we only know that Peter was married because his mother-in-law gets mentioned, so it doesn't look like marital status or spousal involvement was much of a concern either way.
And then, of course, you have to account for the way the canon was formed. Argument from silence is weak at the best of times, but doubly so when the silence is in an approved selection of accounts. Not that I think there's much to get excited about here - actually, I don't care either way about whether he was married, and this fragment of papyrus doesn't tell us anything very new or interesting about that or anything else. I just don't think this argument's particularly strong.
-------------------- The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
With regard to "disciple" versus "apostle", I believe there is some distinction: Initially the twelve men were the students of Jesus, learning from him, and during this period we refer to them as disciples. Later, he sent them out in twos to preach his words throughout the region. At this point, they were representing him and it is at this point and later we call them apostles.
I doubt that the distinction matters much to most people.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by HCH: I doubt that the distinction [between apostle and disciple] matters much to most people.
It matters a great deal to the Orthodox. Apostles -- particularly the 12 (we also recognize the 70 that our Lord sent out as Apostles and have a (doubtless apocryphal) list of their names) -- are held in very high esteem. Indeed a (typically evangelizing) saint we particularly want to praise is called "equal to the apostles."
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Indeed - and "the twelve" is of great symbolic importance in several ways, being the symbolic representation of the 12 tribes of Israel.
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi: Indeed - and "the twelve" is of great symbolic importance in several ways, being the symbolic representation of the 12 tribes of Israel.
And the 70 of the Septuagint?
--Tom Clune
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I'll have to pass on the 70 I'm afraid!
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tclune: quote: Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi: Indeed - and "the twelve" is of great symbolic importance in several ways, being the symbolic representation of the 12 tribes of Israel.
And the 70 of the Septuagint?
If you mean in Orthodoxy, they're not apostles, and don't get much traction. I'm not even sure they have their own day.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I suspect Tom is querying the numerology interpretation - if you can use the 12 disciples to tie in with the 12 tribes of Israel, why can't you use the 70? But if we're playing that game, big significance of 7 (churches in Revelation) and 7 x 70 (forgiveness) - it's why Newton found 7 colours in the rainbow - God does things in 7s.
eta to add words - should not do two things at once [ 20. September 2012, 20:20: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The seventy represents the seventy elders appointed by Moses.
Really these numbers are not arbitary but chosen for symbolic reasons, who chose them I leave up to others to debate.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Thank you Jengie, that sounds very probable.
I thought Tom may have been a bit puckish - I thought the numbers thing in Jewish thought was well known to be a part of their symbology. You may as well assert that Jesus spending 40 days in the desert before commencing his ministry was another random number, signifying nothing.
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I have memories of Tom's responses on the Kerygmania numerology thread when I asked some questions there - it's now in Oblivion so sorry, not providing a link.
-------------------- Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've heard the Orthodox claim that Ananias, who baptised and laid hands on Saul/Paul in Acts chapter 9 was one of the 70. They used this to suggest that the Holy Spirit only moves through properly delegated Orthodox dudes - although others present took a more liberal and inclusive line on this one.
Equally, I understand that there's a tradition that St Aristobolus was one of the 70 and was the bloke who brought the Gospel to the British Isles. I'd need to mug up on that, I only came across it the other day on an Orthodox site about Orthodoxy in Wales. Historically speaking, I always thought that no-one really knows when or how Christianity arrived on these islands but it's generally thought to have been brought by Roman soldiers. Who knows?
This might turn into a new thread about whether Tradition is there to fill in the gaps in scripture ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Apparently someone else says it is a fake.
Though to me, saying something is composed of words found in another document is hardly evidence of fakeness, whatever language it is.
But I'm not a scholar of ancient Coptic, what do I know?
-------------------- "..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?” "..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: I've heard the Orthodox claim that Ananias, who baptised and laid hands on Saul/Paul in Acts chapter 9 was one of the 70. They used this to suggest that the Holy Spirit only moves through properly delegated Orthodox dudes - although others present took a more liberal and inclusive line on this one.
What a bizarre interpretation! Truly my co-religionists include a healthy share of bizarroids.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm sorry for reviving an old thread, but Dutch newpapers are saying today that the papyrus fragment is a modern fake?
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
That's rather old news, the British press covered this around the 21st September, basically based on an analysis by Prof. Francis Watson. Perhaps new evidence has now emerged?
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: IngoB: That's rather old news, the British press covered this around the 21st September, basically based on an analysis by Prof. Francis Watson. Perhaps new evidence has now emerged?
The way I understand it, Prof. Watson pointed out parallels between the fragment and the Gospel of Thomas. The newspaper I read goes further. It points to new research by Andrew Bernhard from Oxford: apparently a version of the Gospel of Thomas was published on the internet some time ago with an error (an omitted article). The papyrus fragment has the same error.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: That's rather old news, the British press covered this around the 21st September, basically based on an analysis by Prof. Francis Watson. Perhaps new evidence has now emerged?
Your link opens up a reply box for this thread.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
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Pasco
Shipmate
# 388
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr Weber: To quote a friend of mine, "Apparently thousands of manuscripts from the 2nd century prove nothing, but a single dubious fragment from the 4th century proves everything."
From "Remnant," A Great Myth Entertained: News* Today
[* Non-event woefully sensationalised - ?]
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pigwidgeon: Your link opens up a reply box for this thread.
Sorry, this was the link I wanted to post: link. It contains Watson's analyses.
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I could (just about) follow the reasoning, though it was hard work given my ignorance of the language. Prof Watson's argument seems very likely to be correct. Certainly it looks hard to refute, or find a plausible genuine explanation for the oddities of the text.
Has Karen King commented yet?
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure: If Jesus was married it would make no difference to anything important as far as I'm concerned. Though I would get some perverse enjoyment out of watching those who believe celibacy has some spiritual value freak out.
For some reason (old Catholic dogma tapes playing in my head?), the idea that Jesus was married threatens me. I don't know why, exactly. Or maybe I do but I'm embarrassed or confused about it... oh hell, let me just say that I have this stupid belief that if Jesus was married then he couldn't have really been God because who ever heard of God getting married? Also, how could God be married to one person? I don't know, I don't know.
But then again, I am still wrestling with whether or not I believe Jesus was God. Maybe he isn't and then I'm left with... what?
I'm wrestling with angels...
-------------------- God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: The5thMary: I'm wrestling with angels...
Watch your hip.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LeRoc: quote: The5thMary: I'm wrestling with angels...
Watch your hip.
Hey! Maybe that's why I have hip problems AND scoliosis!
-------------------- God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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