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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It's Saturday Morning - here they come
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
We recently decided, rather tham fob them off with an excuse, to engage in discussion with some JWs, or 'Winesses' as they self label.
Apart from the diety of Christ discussion, it's actually quite hard to work out where they're coming from - what do they want to achieve, what are their 'core' beliefs and mission.
She talked quite a lot about end times and prophecies from Daniel, but we're not totally sure what the gist was (the clay feet from Daniels vision are, apparantly, the Anglo-American empire).
So I guess the question is, what are their core beliefs? and what's the Saturday morning door knocking all about?
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
I heard a story about a woman who was visited several Saturdays in a row by JWs, two women, handing out literature and talking their doctrine.
One Saturday the woman decided she had had enough, and prepared for them. Sure enough, at the time she had been visited before, the doorbell rang.
Opening the door she saw two different women, but they had literature in their hand, so they were welcomed in. "Before we start," she said, "I want us to do something." She faced an American flag she had placed in her living room and said the pledge of allegiance. Then she sang the national anthem, "Star Spangled Banner." When she finished she invited her guests to sit down and said, "Now, how can I help you?"
One of the women visitors, clearly shocked and amazed, said, "In all my years of selling Avon I have never had this happen."
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's not that difficult to work out what they believe. Just read The Watchtower and their other literature.
Essentially, it's plain old fashioned Arianism mixed up with a highly literal Millenarianism absorbed from the outer fringes of early/mid-18th century American Protestantism.
It's also incredibly boring.
So boring in fact that I can't be bothered to set out their core beliefs systematically here as I'd probably nod off before I reached the end of the list.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
AIUI they believe that they contribute to their own well-being by going door-to-door. (I do not know the exact nature of the benefit.) It makes no difference how people respond; the point is that they do it.
If anyone knows better, please say so.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
It's worth remembering that JWs are under immense pressure from the people above them in the JW hierarchy and if they dissent and rebel they can be disfellowshipped and cut off from everyone they know.
Consequently I suspect the reason any individual JW knocks on the door will include a strong element of 'because I have to'.
For that reason I am generally careful to be polite to them, although I won't engage them in discussion.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Did anyone think to make them a cup of tea? Perhaps some bourbon cream biscuits might have been a nice addition.
I remember someone from Birmingham telling me about some Mormons who used to visit him - he had them digging his garden for him, they made themselves very useful!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
(Circuit Rider, I've taken the liberty of adding your hilarious story to the SoF Quotes File in The Circus).
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
... She faced an American flag she had placed in her living room and said the pledge of allegiance. Then she sang the national anthem, "Star Spangled Banner." When she finished she invited her guests to sit down and said, "Now, how can I help you?"
Never mind the JW door knocking; what was that all about?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
We get regular visits though mostly I think Seventh Day Adventists. They are a pleasant group of elderly black people, the women often stopping to chat while the one man pushes on ahead sticking leaflets into doors - which the women don't notice and start leafleting a second time until he notices and gets a bit cross. I think he'd rather be on his allotment.
The one leaflet I remember had the title "You could spend eternity with your family". It wasn't clear if it was a threat or a promise. I was very tempted to say "I did that last weekend" but desisted.
One woman also had 'Weight Watcher' fliers which we agreed to put on our communal notice board (it's that sort of place). She didn't ask for religious ones to be put up - but having seen the yogic tofu knitting, sacred wymmyn's tree hugging and such ads she probably thought she was a bit too mainstream for us.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
... She faced an American flag she had placed in her living room and said the pledge of allegiance. Then she sang the national anthem, "Star Spangled Banner." When she finished she invited her guests to sit down and said, "Now, how can I help you?"
Never mind the JW door knocking; what was that all about?
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries. Caused then no end of trouble during the War To End All Wars, and the war which followed.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries. Caused then no end of trouble during the War To End All Wars, and the war which followed.
And they weren't exactly popular with the Nazis (see wikipedia - I can't get the link to work). On account of which they can have a cup of tea with me anytime.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It's worth remembering that JWs are under immense pressure from the people above them in the JW hierarchy and if they dissent and rebel they can be disfellowshipped and cut off from everyone they know.
Consequently I suspect the reason any individual JW knocks on the door will include a strong element of 'because I have to'.
For that reason I am generally careful to be polite to them, although I won't engage them in discussion.
Young JWs are often not allowed to get married until they have done enough ministry for the faith. And they aren't allowed to date unless its for the purpose of getting married.
That's why many door-knockers are young, male, and looking slightly too eager.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
I used to live round the corner from one of the major north London Kingdom Halls (I say that like I know how many there are), so I was a regular port of call on their doorstepping rounds.
Whenever I was minded to switch on my Bodhisattva Never-Disparaging persona ("I will not disparage you... for you are sure to attain the Buddha way") Not really being bothered about the nitty-gritty of Christ's identity (sorry, shipmates!) I'd get into some blue-sky chats and would always invite them to return when they'd discussed my questions and come up with some answers. I never seemed to get the same people coming back twice though. Presumably I only got the ones who hadn't studied the list of embargoed addresses before they set out.
Since I moved east, there's been a marked dip in the quality of doorstep discourse. The average recent JW caller would be intellectually out of their depth with 90% of householders who were prepared to engage with them. Maybe they just go out to get some experience of bearing persecution with fortitude?* And the last WatchTower I accepted seemed to be peppered with advice on immigration, and on basic personal hygiene in language and assumptions that would insult the intelligence of a nine year-old. So much for clarifying what they believe in (cf Gamaliel, above).
[eta:] * Is that the answer to the OP question, perhaps?
[ 02. November 2012, 17:39: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Having whiled away many an evening inviting them in for tea and biscuits (keeping them off my street!)I found the most frutiful approach is....treat them like people.
Often they have what seems to be the 'teaching of the week' which they are keen to pass on to the people they speak to, and it can be quite difficult to engage in any real discussion that doesn't go round in circles. Hence my gambit is to try to get them 'off message' and ask open questions like "Tell me, when and why did you become a JW?"; Even the good old Evangelism Explosion questions sometimes work.
Rather than argue over doctrine and dogma, find out what faith means to them, or grace. Ask how their faith has changed their lives. It's not rocket science, but can lead to friendly mutual exploration of how we understand God and the way God interacts with us.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AIUI they believe that they contribute to their own well-being by going door-to-door. (I do not know the exact nature of the benefit.) It makes no difference how people respond; the point is that they do it.
If anyone knows better, please say so.
Moo
I think you are right. I have had them knock on the door of our parsonage next door to the church and obviously connected by driveways.
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries. Caused then no end of trouble during the War To End All Wars, and the war which followed.
And they weren't exactly popular with the Nazis (see wikipedia - I can't get the link to work). On account of which they can have a cup of tea with me anytime.
Yes, I'm getting to like them too. We occasionally get a couple come round with their son, but they're never up for a conversation; just get the kid to give me some literature and then leave me alone. I'll have to invite them in next time.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries.
I'm warming to them...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
The one leaflet I remember had the title "You could spend eternity with your family"[i]. It wasn't clear if it was a threat or a promise. I was very tempted to say "I did that last weekend" but desisted.
That is probably why JW's do not celebrate Christmas.
Their rejection of Trinitarianism is regrettable and I tell them so (they miss out on a lot) but [i]disfellowshipping is worse. No, not the doctrine, many churches have that, the word itself.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
I haven't had them call for a long time since I used a copy of their edition of the bible, quoted the iffy end of Mark's gospel to them - the bit about laying on of hands for healing as a sign of belief, and enquired pointedly: 'So when was the last healing at your Hall'. The guy tried to wriggle a bit: 'it's not in all the texts'... 'But it's in YOUR text...'
One could get into the cessationist argument that such things ended - until you actually read what the proof text for that, 1 Cor 13, actually says. It's prophecy and knowledge that pass away, not healing.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries.
I'm warming to them...
They "refuse to pledge allegiance" because, in the JW worldview, all and everything that is not JW is controlled by Satan. It's not a principled, high-minded stance.
Yes, the Elders send in returns to Brooklyn HQ of how many door-knocking hours the congregation have tallied up - and these are micro-managed and members (mostly known as *other sheep* i.e. not part of the 144,000 who are destined to rule from Heaven post-Armageddon, post-Tribulation) so that's why these terrified people do it.
Another interesting fact is that fit, able-bodied JWs are encouraged to remain on state benefits ("making use of Caesar's provision") in order to do the far more essential (so say the dictators of the Brooklyn Watchtower Gerontocracy) work of door-knocking.
You warm to them because they got persecuted in the Holocaust? True. they did, along with other groups who were considered a threat to the Reich. In the UK (and, I don't doubt in the US), they are not threatened or persecuted so why are they still a racist, sexist mind-control cult who target the sad, the lonely and vulnerable?
{first-hand experience, thank you}
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JW's don't render obeisance to symbols like flags, nor offer allegiance to countries.
I'm warming to them...
They "refuse to pledge allegiance" because, in the JW worldview, all and everything that is not JW is controlled by Satan. It's not a principled, high-minded stance.
Yes, the Elders send in returns to Brooklyn HQ of how many door-knocking hours the congregation have tallied up - and these are micro-managed and members are coerced into making the numbers and sales* (mostly known as *other sheep* i.e. not part of the 144,000 who are destined to rule from Heaven post-Armageddon, post-Tribulation) so that's why these terrified people do it.
*If they don't manage to make sales from the door knocking of the amount of "literature" they're allocated (and for which they, themselves pay in the first instance), then they have to make up the difference from their own pockets. Nice little double-dipping scam there.
Another interesting fact is that fit, able-bodied JWs are encouraged to remain on state benefits ("making use of Caesar's provision") in order to do the far more essential (so say the dictators of the Brooklyn Watchtower Gerontocracy) work of door-knocking.
You warm to them because they got persecuted in the Holocaust? True. they did, along with other groups who were considered a threat to the Reich. In the UK (and, I don't doubt in the US), they are not threatened or persecuted so why are they still a racist, sexist mind-control cult who target the sad, the lonely and vulnerable?
{first-hand experience, thank you}
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
I have never found engaging in conversation with JWs anything other than exasperating. They are so controlled that it is impossible to reason with them. My Dad once had a "Eureka" moment with a young JW woman who he engaged in conversaion whilst the man she was with carried on down the street. She suddenly realised that Jesus is God, turned to her friend in panic and was whisked away swiftly, presumably for brainwashing. Next time some others came to the street, one of our neighours said they should go and chat to the man at No16 (my Dad) "because he likes religion and that". "No" they said, "we aren't allowed to go to that address".
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think you'll find that it's their Arianism and cultic tendencies that puts them beyond the pale of mainstream Christian belief, Ender's Shadow rather than their cessationism.
There are plenty of Trinitarian Christians who are cessationist and have a different 'take' on the disputed end of Mark's Gospel as you well know. I wouldn't use those verses as an acid test of orthodoxy even though I don't - in principle - have any problem with the idea of God choosing to heal people through prayer and the laying on of hands.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Kankucho ... fair call ... I s'pose what I meant to say was if you read their study material - rather than the bait-and-switch stuff they use on the doors.
They use the Watchtower and so on to lure people into more in-depth Bible study using their flawed translation. Essentially, they believe that Jesus is some kind of incarnation of the Archangel Michael and that all the churches and religions have got it wrong and that the Watchtower organisation is the only one that's got things right ... everyone else is doomed to oblivion when they die (not eternal conscious hell fire, they are annihilationists) but you get the chance to avoid that by studying with the Witnesses and trying to lead others into the way ...
Hence the door-knocking.
They take a very literal view of apocalyptic books like Revelation and believe that they will be the only ones preserved when final destruction comes upon this wicked world. Some 144,000 will reign with Christ from heaven whilst the rest of the JWs will dwell for eternity on a restored 'paradise earth'.
From an orthodox or mainstream Christian perspective the whole thing is iffy in its Christology, lack of Trinitarianism and so on.
I've known plenty of JWs in my time and they are pretty genuine and decent people. Demographically, they tend to come from similar kinds of backgrounds to most Pentecostals and some of the more fundamentalist forms of evangelical - which is why these groups tend to clash with the JWs in debate and so on as they encounter them when they, too are door-knocking and so on.
Essentially, one could argue, they are targetting the same demographic.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
How is their translation flawed?
(Just to be clear: that's a genuine question. Presumably they have to meet some sort of standard?)
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
Gamaliel - that is what the poor door-knocking "other sheep" are TOLD to believe. In my experience, most lowest-level JWs are poor, bewildered souls (a LOT of MH issues in the congos - debate point - do you join the JWs coz you're crazy or do they drive you crazy?). The deep theological issues raised on this thread really pass unregarded amongst the rank and file of the JWs - they just do as they are told.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm sure that's right, Jahlove. I've certainly met JWs with mental health issues. I'd say the same thing applied to the more fundamentalist end of things in general, though, not just to JWs.
On the issue of their Bible translation. They have what is called The New World Translation which is their own translation and which differs in very significant points from all other translations generally accepted across Christendom as a whole.
In essence, they downplay those verses which are traditionally used to assert the deity of Christ.
I could get onto their rendering of John 1:1 for instance, but suffice to say that their translation is regarded as iffy by the generally accepted authorities and consensus in these matters.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
The best way to handle a JW is to ask:
"If God abandoned the Church after the first 300 years and only came back in 1844...why did he take so long?"
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Working purely from Wikipedia, it doesn't look too bad... What am I missing?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
As a social worker I meet a lot of JWs (the group tends to draw from the poor and disaffected in our society). It's true that they regard the State as coming from Satan; they tell me this. Still, this does not stop many of them from either entering civil service (working for the devil?) or being on public welfare benefits.
As for the door-knocking, this is required of JWs who wish to remain in good standing. That's important to them, since often their primary social group is the local congregation, and being disfellowshipped is something they dread. But a lot of the ones I know manage to fulfill their "witnessing" duty by simply standing there with copies of THE WATCHTOWER at train stations. Nobody ever buys it, but they often get into friendly conversations with commuters.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Working purely from Wikipedia, it doesn't look too bad... What am I missing?
OK... so next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
A few years ago the JWs starting referring to their buildings as "Assembly Halls," and not "Kingdom Halls." Not sure why.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Posted by Mark Betts: quote:
next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that!
I know where my nearest Kingdom Hall is, thank you. So far they're doing a lot better than the Orthodox Church.
Over to you!
Now. Do you want to answer the question?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Posted by Mark Betts: quote:
next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that!
I know where my nearest Kingdom Hall is, thank you. So far they're doing a lot better than the Orthodox Church.
Over to you!
Now. Do you want to answer the question?
OK - as far as I'm concerned, I stay away because they are unitarian and un-catholic - but, as you don't have a problem with either of those things, I'd be interested to know why you stay away - especially as things are so much better there than with those horrible Orthodox.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Originally posted by Mark Betts: quote:
OK - as far as I'm concerned, I stay away because they are unitarian and un-catholic - but, as you don't have a problem with either of those things, I'd be interested to know why you stay away - especially as things are so much better there than with those horrible Orthodox.
Unitarian begs another question...
Un-Catholic, I haven't addressed...
My question had to do with their translation of the Bible.
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Unitarian begs another question...
Un-Catholic, I haven't addressed...
My question had to do with their translation of the Bible.
They use the Westcott-Hort text, but they have translated their own version of the Bible from it - which isn't a recognised translation outside the JW faith, due to obvious manipulation to support their particular beliefs - ie unitarianism.
eg. John 1 changes from "The Word was God" to "The Word was a god."
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
Frankly: is that it?
That's the worst you can come up with?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Posted by Mark Betts: quote:
next step is to look in the local directory for your nearest Kingdom Hall. Good luck with that!
I know where my nearest Kingdom Hall is, thank you. So far they're doing a lot better than the Orthodox Church.
Over to you!
Now. Do you want to answer the question?
OK - as far as I'm concerned, I stay away because they are unitarian and un-catholic - but, as you don't have a problem with either of those things, I'd be interested to know why you stay away - especially as things are so much better there than with those horrible Orthodox.
hmm, there are good arguments about why the JWs are wrong - no need for passive-aggresssive denominational drivel (which wasn't even mentioned).
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
hmm, there are good arguments about why the JWs are wrong - no need for passive-aggresssive denominational drivel (which wasn't even mentioned).
OK - sorry for the flippancy, but even so - the fact that they reject the Trinity and all things catholic are good arguments as far as I'm concerned.
There's already another thread open on Trinitarianism.
By "all things catholic" I simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Ender's Shadow
I haven't had them call for a long time since I used a copy of their edition of the bible, quoted the iffy end of Mark's gospel to them - the bit about laying on of hands for healing as a sign of belief, and enquired pointedly: 'So when was the last healing at your Hall'. The guy tried to wriggle a bit: 'it's not in all the texts'... 'But it's in YOUR text...'
Actually, asking them to share a prayer with you tends to get them to leave lickety-split: especially if it involves laying on of hands.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Once, a team had the misfortune to arrive at our door whilst we were holding a preparation meeting for a week of mission. The older guy was so keen to depart that he left his hat behind!! (yes, he did wear a hat, but we're talking mid eighties here)
I have no proof, but strongly suspect that trinitarian Christian households are "red-lined", so's not to disturb the junior members of the house-to-house teams.
[ 02. November 2012, 23:38: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
How is their translation flawed?
(Just to be clear: that's a genuine question. Presumably they have to meet some sort of standard?)
My issue with the JWs is not so much about their Bible translation, but about their exclusivity. As others have noted, they have a big thing about obedience and, if you don't toe the line, discipline leading to disfellowshipping.
As I understand it, JWs have to put in a certain number of hours door-knocking each month, and they are not encouraged to explore the Bible themselves, because of the JW teaching that the Watchtower organisation is God's appointed channel for truth. They're also forbidden (I think; or at least strongly discouraged) from reading things like commentaries written by non-JWs.
So they start their doorstep conversations by trying to find common ground ('Oh, you're a Christian like us. That's great, we love to meet fellow lovers of the Bible!), but then will try to help you see that the truth, and salvation, can only be found within their organisation.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
I've spent time on Saturday morning chatting to them, usually when I have nothing else to do.
I often end up turning the evangelising opportunity on its head and ask them whether they would like to join the Church of England. They politely decline.
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Sioni Sais
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I've spent time on Saturday morning chatting to them, usually when I have nothing else to do.
I often end up turning the evangelising opportunity on its head and ask them whether they would like to join the Church of England. They politely decline.
They are even less impressed by invitations to your local Roman Catholic church! It's as if you have the Inquisition, or at least a couple of spare Jesuits, in your house.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Grokesx
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# 17221
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Posted
quote:
As others have noted, they have a big thing about obedience and, if you don't toe the line, discipline leading to disfellowshipping.
If they don't repent. If they do they get to stay in "the Truth" which in the short term at least is just as bad as being disfellowshipped, since they have to stand at the back of the hall in meetings and nobody is allowed to speak to them. This goes on for a year.
The disfellowshipped are supposed to be shunned by all, even family members. In practice this is not always policed - my wife, disfellowshipped twenty years ago, has just returned from holiday with her mother who is still a JW. Every now and then we notice that we have not been visited by her mother for a while - she lives very close by - and assume there has been some heavy teaching on shunning the depraved going on.
Sometimes my wife has to put up with attempts to get her back which she gives short shrift, and many years ago I had the experience of attending an assembly. Every year around Easter they have an open assembly. Family members not in "the Truth", even disfellowshipped ones, can be persuaded, cajoled or emotionally blackmailed into going along. It's their way of keeping the door open and can be successful - my wife's brother has recently joined after a lifetime of indifference other than going to such assemblies occasionally.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
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ArachnidinElmet
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# 17346
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Posted
To balance this up a bit I know a couple of JW's ( 2 older woman: I have never met a young single male JW) one from regular visits to the swimming baths, the other as a check out assistant at the local Sainsburys. Out of context, neither have tried to convert me.
Coincidently, some years ago they used to visit my grandad, an active member of my (RC) church. Over about 18 months of weekly visits they became friends. They knew that he was not going to convert, and never got past the hall, but the 10 minute doorstep conversation ended up being 1 hour chats about respective families and what was going on in the world, ending with a prayer which satisfied both parties. When he died, although they wouldn't attend the church funeral, they did come to the cemetery to see him off.
I realise that we lucked out and am very much not advocating the JW world view, having spoken with less engaged/engaging JWs, but as with most things not all doorsteppers are the same.
It's interesting to note, considering how literal they are in all other ways, that they do not use the Our Father, as "it was not meant to be repeated literally word for word".
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Out of context, neither have tried to convert me.
My experience is the same. I had a JW secretary for many years (followed by another JW secretary) and neither tried to convert anyone or talked much about their beliefs. The team's Christmas lunch was rebranded 'End of Year lunch' to ensure they attended, but otherwise you wouldn't have known their religion.
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Grokesx
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# 17221
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Posted
quote:
I realise that we lucked out and am very much not advocating the JW world view, having spoken with less engaged/engaging JWs, but as with most things not all doorsteppers are the same.
I don't think you've lucked out at all. Based on my wife's experience, Kingdom Halls are for the most part full of perfectly nice people. It's the institution that sucks.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
But it is wonderful if it occurs in the 3rd century? It fine is done in the 16th or 17th century? It is good when it is done so one man can swing his willy anywhere he chooses? This is not a road successfully taken by anyone without being challenged. Most all religion can be distilled down to "I believe what these blokes wrote about what that bloke said and how these other blokes interpret it." There is no "Authority" other than what one chooses to accept.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
If the JWs are really bugging you on a Saturday morning, why not do as I do and buzz off to Church? Mass at 930am, Open Church/Coffee Morning/baptism + wedding enquiries etc., and the Angelus at 12 noon...... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Why they are never to be seen in our street, I know not.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...By "all things catholic" I simply mean the Faith as we receive it, rather than someone who comes along in the 19th century, and throws everything away and invents his own version of Christianity.
I have no reason to believe such a man - what Authority does he have?
Don't catholics say that about all protestant religions though - give or take a few centuries?
[edit] Ah. I overlooked lilBuddha there. Snap.
[ 03. November 2012, 13:40: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
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