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Source: (consider it) Thread: Pyx_e on Churchmanship
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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Pyx_e wrote something substantial on churchmanship in the TICTH Hell thread. Since I understand it is the done thing to not start a discussion on that thread, I'm opening this new thread here for this purpose. So while I'm formally the OP now, I really just posting a response to this:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
TICTH Churchmanship. I am sick of it. All this endless petty meandering, wittering and pontificating about evangelicals, Catholics, liberals, post modern liberals, orthodox, atheists, Anglicans and whatever flavour is floating your boat this year. It absolutely makes me puke. Do you think there is one little part of God’s eternal kingdom where He gives a monkeys about what camp you want to belonging.

Can you not see that all you are doing is creating a boundary to keep you safe that does the exact opposite. You create these walls of Jericho not to worship God better or draw closer to Him but to create a safe little territory and a safe little God. You neuter Aslan, put a little collar around his neck with a bell on it and hope to Allah he never Roars.

I’m not saying that whatever you are is a bad thing (in my instance liberal Anglo-Catholic with charismatic leanings). I’m just saying that to pretend it is the ONLY thing, or pretend that it is enough, is a type of wilful spiritual blindness that speaks little of your or mine baptismal and conformational promises. We bleat on about loving the Lord our God yet we are little more than moths round aflame. Pretending that we are holy because we can see the light (whilst never letting it refine us) and that the candle we orbit with such ferocity is the only candle.

Your crushing desire to be right makes you wrong. It is not wrong to know what you like and worship God in a way that suits you psychologically, emotionally and spiritually but please can we stop pretending that just because what you do is good there is not more which could make your relationship with God better. I’m not asking you to give up what you are (in fact I’m asking you to celebrate more fully what you are in your community) but I am asking for a degree of willingness to grow and change, to know the limitations of where you find yourself, to stop criticising others who do it differently and to recognise that the kingdom is near and may actually be found not in doing what you have done for the last 20 years or in adhering to petty and unfulfilling labels.

In the end churchmanship, is in my opinion, barely helpful and in pretty much every instance I have ever come across wicked. It labels, categorises and stigmatises. A high tower to throw rocks from, screw that.

Fly Safe Pyx_e

The original is here. There was a positive one-liner response by 3rdFooter on the TICTH thread, and if you think Pyx_e's contribution should be immortalized on the SoF Quotes File, then Sioni Sais beat you to it (and birdie, Mary LA and alienfromzog agreed with the choice there).

OK, so I think many things can be discussed about this post! And I for one would be happy to see a broad discussion (with likely lots of positive affirmation...).

But I will start on a critical note, as I would: Isn't this by and in itself a most typical expression of churchmanship, which just happens to be "liberal Anglo-Catholic with charismatic leanings" (as Pyx_e self-describes in the piece)? In other words, isn't it basically hypocritical? To me at least it seems like exactly the sort of thing a liberal Anglo-Catholic churchman with charismatic leanings would say to mark his territory...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Isn't this by and in itself a most typical expression of churchmanship, which just happens to be "liberal Anglo-Catholic with charismatic leanings" (as Pyx_e self-describes in the piece)? In other words, isn't it basically hypocritical? To me at least it seems like exactly the sort of thing a liberal Anglo-Catholic churchman with charismatic leanings would say to mark his territory...

Well, I've heard this basic assertion from folks of just about every persuasion you can name. So -- at least to my mind -- the burden is on you to give some reason, however wispy, that this evaluation is anything other than your attempt to be dismissive of a view that you don't happen to share.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Barnabas62
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I'm pretty uncomfortable with this as a Purg OP as it stands. Pyx_e was letting off steam, wasn't he? It hardly seems fair to make the words of a rant the theme for a serious discussion.

In general, we're reluctant to import into Purg "as is" a rant from Hell, or anything which in a non-Hellish context would constitute an attack on other Shipmates. Hell has special guidelines for a good reason.

But the idea of a serious critical discussion on churchmanship strikes me as a very good one. I'd like to preserve it if I can.

Off to take some advice from Hosts, probably PM Pyx_e as well. I'd be grateful if you'd hold fire for the time being.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


[ 12. November 2012, 17:35: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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Barnabas62, I didn't think that Pyx_e's post was particularly "Hellish", just forthright. However, if you judge that Pyx_e's post (or for that matter my contention that it is hypocritical) can only be discussed downstairs, then by all means do send it down. For the record: I had no intention whatsoever of calling Pyx_e to Hell over this, or indeed insulting him (beyond being critical of his post). Quite to the contrary, I thought this was an interesting and well-put challenge; and that's why I responded.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Barnabas62
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We're going to leave this in Purgatory to see how it does. But with a proviso.

As a matter of principle, no Shipmate should be expected to defend in Purgatory words used in Hell, nor should any such comments be the subject of any ad hominem references. That applies whether the comments from Hell are seen as expressed in Hellish or Purgish terms. Don't treat the complete verbal content as though it was a Purgatory post. Remember it was intended as a one-off rant in the TICTH thread.

That being said, the general ideas in the post seem to be well worth discussing and so we want to leave Shipmates free to discuss those in Purgatory.

We've got misgivings, this is a bit of a try-out. So we'll keep an eye on it, and if it turns Hellish, that's where it will end up very quickly.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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It's a bit of a problem amongst Anglo-Catholics, because in general we have been advocates of a programme that we believe should extend to the rest of the Anglican world. The programme isn't so much about wanting everyone to adopt smells and bells, as it is wanting everyone to practice reservation of the MBS, confess the Real Presence in no uncertain terms, celebrate the Eucharist as a sacrifice marked by ample solemnity, and so forth. I think we really do want everyone else to adopt certain essential elements of our programme, and we're also keen to extend our programme to Lutherans and various quarters that have high church leanings in other denominations. We might find low-ish ceremonial quaint and acceptable as long as done with ample dignity and the "right" theology, though we aren't keen to promote their way of doing things. We positively hate presiding at the Eucharist in street attire, using overhead projectors to display hymn lyrics and liturgical texts, and all other things belonging to the modern evangelical Anglican camp.
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Martin60
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Pyx_e ... is that you Lord?

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Love wins

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hatless

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I agree with Pyx_e and I'm not an Anglo-Catholic. In other words the opinion he's expressed can be shared by people of very different ecclesiologies.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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daronmedway
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In my experience, churchmanship is - at its worst - just a way for ordinary ministers (like me) who will never be extra-ordinary ministers (like N_____) to combat the loneliness of mediocrity, disappointment and anonymity.

Yes, as Pyx_e says, we dress it up as having "convictions". We call it "networking" and we go to conferences hoping to meet people who will be our friends. At these conferences we seek the acceptance from "successful" and "extraordinary" priests/ministers who we publicly admire but secretly hate. And we do it because, when the rubber hits the road, the approval of people means so much more to us that the approval of Jesus.

We use churchmanship as a way of distancing ourselves from fellow ministers/priests who we wouldn't naturally choose as friends, in order to curry favour with people who wouldn't give us the time of day if we didn't read the same bible translation as them. Pyx_e is right. Churchmanship is a ridiculous, sad, paltry thing which simply serves to entrench the successful in their arrogance and isolate the mundane in their loneliness.

[ 12. November 2012, 20:41: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Isn't this by and in itself a most typical expression of churchmanship, which just happens to be "liberal Anglo-Catholic with charismatic leanings" (as Pyx_e self-describes in the piece)?

Nah, Pyx_e just likes to be in the smallest minority possible! [Biased]

Seriously, I thought it was a superb post, and right on the mark. I take "churchmanship" not to refer to matters of faith, but rather to matters concerning the expression of faith, and I think it can very easily become an idol.

I'm reminded, somehow, of Stephen Fry ranting about how people with different musical tastes sometimes "anathematise" each other. He said something to the effect of, "If you like classical music, I'd like you to listen to five pop records. And if you like pop music, I'd like you to listen to five classical records. And then let's not have any more silliness, shall we?"

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Well, I've heard this basic assertion from folks of just about every persuasion you can name. So -- at least to my mind -- the burden is on you to give some reason, however wispy, that this evaluation is anything other than your attempt to be dismissive of a view that you don't happen to share.

Fair enough, the "Anglo-Catholic" bit sure wasn't crucial, as also hatless pointed out. But the idea that one can in fact transcend all the various labels (including even atheist), that God does not care what denomination or "style" one belongs to, that practice is purely "horses for courses" and that "live and let live" is the way to release the "Spirit of Aslan" ... all that sounded precisely "liberal with charismatic leanings" to me.

However, I'm starting to wonder a bit now whether the word "churchmanship" brings in aspects that I did not consider. daronmedway's post confuses the heck out of me in that regard. Perhaps this was intended to be all about the social life of clerics, about which I thankfully know nothing... [Confused]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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daronmedway:
quote:
We use churchmanship as a way of distancing ourselves from fellow ministers/priests who we wouldn't naturally choose as friends, in order to curry favour with people who wouldn't give us the time of day if we didn't read the same bible translation as them. Pyx_e is right. Churchmanship is a ridiculous, sad, paltry thing which simply serves to entrench the successful in their arrogance and isolate the mundane in their loneliness.
I found this very moving, and profound. I'm afraid I don't often agree with things you've said, but I felt this deserved [Overused]

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Pyxe puts a rant in hell about the nonsensical nature of mostly unhelpful church classification. Ingo takes the bait....hmmmm [Paranoid]

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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What Robert Armin said. Well said, daronmedway. [Cool]

The part of Pyx-e's post that caught me was this:
quote:
I’m not asking you to give up what you are (in fact I’m asking you to celebrate more fully what you are in your community) but I am asking for a degree of willingness to grow and change, to know the limitations of where you find yourself, to stop criticising others who do it differently and to recognise that the kingdom is near and may actually be found not in doing what you have done for the last 20 years or in adhering to petty and unfulfilling labels.
IngoB has made clear his loyalty and conviction that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Church established by Peter and the Apostles and, by the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Church, has all its ducks in a row by way of theology and practice. Therefore, RC churchmanship is really the only one that counts with him. Although I disagree with a number of RC tenets, he has done me a service over the years by increasing my understanding of RC scholarship and beliefs. But if you, IngoB, are just going to repeat that churchmanship matters because there is only one true Church, I think we may take that as read.

But what I am getting from Pyx_e is that being sure that you (not you personally, IngoB) have the right label- Catholic, Evangelical, Charismatic, et al is not enough, and in fact may turn into a hindrance, an occasion for pride and complacency instead of growth. When I've read hagiography, many Saints had conversion experiences. Converted from what to what? Most of them were already RCs, not even just "cultural Catholics" but regular devout Catholics doing the usual approved Catholic Christian things in worship and charity. But just being a Catholic Christian became not enough for them. The Holy Spirit kicked it up a notch. If they had told themselves that they were Catholics in good standing with the Lord, and that was enough, the world would have missed some wonderful witness. St. Francis of Assisi, of course, comes to mind. Or if Martin Luther King, Jr. had decided to stick to preaching at his dad's Baptist church, I'm sure he would have changed lives in his congregation and been well-beloved. But as for the rest of the country...?

What wonderful things for the Kingdom might many more of us do in our own ways if we cease straining at churchly gnats and making comparisons that advance nothing?

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Fair enough, the "Anglo-Catholic" bit sure wasn't crucial, as also hatless pointed out. But the idea that one can in fact transcend all the various labels (including even atheist), that God does not care what denomination or "style" one belongs to, that practice is purely "horses for courses" and that "live and let live" is the way to release the "Spirit of Aslan" ... all that sounded precisely "liberal with charismatic leanings" to me.

I think I can see where you're coming from.

But I wouldn't put it down as liberal Anglo-catholic with charismatic leanings, I'd put it down to learning to live gracefully with those whom you disagree. It is IMO the only practical way forward in a very pluralistic world.

I would label it as essentially a postmodern christian view. Time to get past the labels and move on.

@daronmedway - great post too.

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gorpo
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
IngoB has made clear his loyalty and conviction that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Church established by Peter and the Apostles and, by the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Church, has all its ducks in a row by way of theology and practice. Therefore, RC churchmanship is really the only one that counts with him.

But the Roman Catholic Church doesn´t consist of a single "churchmanship", as far as I am concerned. Where I live you have at least the charismatic catholics (a very popular movement), the basic ecclesial community movement (liberation theology, a marxist aproach to the gospels), the traditionalists (those who believe all others are doomed heretics and even think the Pope is not catholic enough), as well as the "average catholics" which won´t fit specifically in any of these groups and might be influenced in one way or another by one or more of these movements.
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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
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Ah, Thanks for the clarification.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
However, I'm starting to wonder a bit now whether the word "churchmanship" brings in aspects that I did not consider. daronmedway's post confuses the heck out of me in that regard.

What was confusing? OK, he talked about ministers. But the same could be said about the rest of us too. When we venture out of our particular congregation and socialise and worship with other Christians where do we go? I'm only really qualified to talk about my experience as a non-Anglican evangelical, but that was marked by Spring Harvest and, in some circles, assorted Bible weeks (Dales, Keswick etc). When your churchmanship becomes a reason (in your mind) to travel long distances to spend weeks of your time with others of the same churchmanship, learning how to do your particular form of Christian expression better, yet you aren't prepared to walk down the road to the church next door ...

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
But if you, IngoB, are just going to repeat that churchmanship matters because there is only one true Church, I think we may take that as read.

Well, I think it's less that I disagree with Pyx_e because I'm RC; it's more that I'm RC because I disagree with Pyx_e... While I appreciate gorpo's comment, that seems to merely point to finer distinctions that were absent in Pyx_e's post (and that may well have to do with this being a rant in Hell, after all). It is true that I don't have a problem with say (the churchmanship of) charismatic Catholics. However, that certainly has to do with charismatic Catholics being Catholic first, and charismatic second - and where that order flips around, I do have a problem with that.

A lot of people have died over for example the distinction between Protestant and Catholic. It's one thing to say that they shouldn't have died (agreed), it is another thing to say that the very distinction they died for is null and void before the Lord (disagreed). Again it is one thing to say that such differences often have more to do with culture and society than with religion (agreed), it is another thing to say that all such differences are cultural and social only and should vanish in religion (disagreed). It is one thing to say that we find religious good in all manner of denominations, even other religions, and at a stretch, even atheism (agreed), it is another things to say that all these goods will be equal before the Lord (disagreed). Etc.

In short, I do not think unity is achieved by generously overlooking all disunity. I do not believe that being "catholic", universal, means accepting everything, I think it means giving everybody access to something quite specific. Aslan is a lion and roars. He is not a panda chewing on bamboo. He is not a sloth hanging in the trees. He's not even a tiger stalking the jungles. He is a lion. Salvation comes from the Jews. A chosen people onto which all can be grafted, not an unconditional acceptance of all.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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This thread reminds me of a conversation in which I was trying to convey to a Dominican Father the characteristics of some Ulster Protestantism. 'Ah' he said 'just like the Jesuits'.

I have to say IngoB always strikes me as rather... Paisleyite.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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IngoB, thanks for this, it might be fun to thrash this one out for a bit but I am always reminded of this scene in my conversations with you (or reading of your conversations with others).

Vizzini and the Dread Pirate Roberts

However having developed a tolerance to Iocane powder a few points:

You postulate that because I self identify as "liberal Anglo-Catholic with charismatic leanings" I am being both typical for bringing up the subject of churchmanship and hypocritical in using a label myself.

Surely it cannot be true that only people of my narrow persuasion feel that churchmanship is an issue. In fact it was seem given the responses on this thread that it is a challenge found across-the-board. And whilst, when writing it, I was aware that I was laying myself open I did want to recognise my own position in this (and if this had been Purgatory thread I would have gone on to describe something of the journey Lyda alluded to in her post, though mine is nowhere near saintly). I would also add, again as Lyda pointed out, that I am not against churchmanship per se but the way in which it is used. As the Greeks would have it “know thyself.” What I was trying to describe in a shorter sentence was my journey and where I found myself now. I’m sorry if it came across as wishing to hold a position or defend it. In fact I think I was trying to do the opposite. But one cannot oppose what one does not know.

One of the things that intrigued me about your response was your use of Aslan in your posts. In some sense it is this that spurs me on. The confluence of knowledge and story. You are demonstrably a very knowledgeable man, the way in which you construct (at times very complicated) arguments leaves me somewhat in awe. For myself I more much more flighty, much more willing to be blown on the wind of the parable than rest in the certainty of a pebble. Which makes my two points difficult.

In short I do not believe what I describe as churchmanship but others might describe differently as factionalism or at its worst tribalism does not exist in the Roman Catholic Church. I think there is a much clearer ideal, and as a person who lives, works and breaths near the living heart of that ideal it may be difficult for you to comprehend, in your heart if not your head, how intrinsically human it is to form gangs of like-minded people.

Secondly I have never wavered from an Orthodox opinion on the nature of the persons of the Trinity, the creed (S) or any of the central tenants of our faith. My argument was not that Christ was a panda but that we tame him, ultimately by nailing down his hands and feet. My fear is that hidden in your text is the unwritten truth hidden in all deeply held positions which is “you either believe exactly what I believe or what you believe is wrong.” In short Aslan is kept in the Roman Catholic zoo, you can find other animals at the petting farm.

I fear that my use of the word “liberal” and our differing personalities may have set us off in slightly different directions.

Again all I would want is to express a gratitude to God for the diversity of His church and the slow revealing of the kingdom in my life. My own repentance at my sectarianism, and a recognition of the damage it has done me, to my shame I have done others.

It is with some trepidation I post this as I have learnt never to go up against a Sicilian.

Fly safe, Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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As Hans Kung very recently said - 'It's not about liberal and conservative; it's about being open minded or closed minded'

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I sometimes clash with daronmedway but here I'm giving him a [Cool]

That said, as I'm sure he'd agree himself, I don't think that there's anything wrong in holding to a particular position - be it a Calvinistic one, a Catholic one, an Orthodox one or whatever else ... a hatless one, say ... [Biased]

Provided we recognise these things for what they are and hold them provisionally in the light of the overall scheme of things - ie. the acceptance that we might ultimately be wrong but are acting in accordance with our convictions and in the light of the evidence available to us ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I would label it as essentially a postmodern christian view. Time to get past the labels and move on.

The only good to come out of postmodernity is its trenchant critique of sola scriptura.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What was confusing? OK, he talked about ministers. ... When your churchmanship becomes a reason (in your mind) to travel long distances to spend weeks of your time with others of the same churchmanship, learning how to do your particular form of Christian expression better, yet you aren't prepared to walk down the road to the church next door ...

Well, I wasn't really expecting a discussion of the depressing daily life of ministers, or the ways in which they suck up in order to have a career. As for your point, it's more of the same Pyx_eian confusion. What precisely would one be looking for in the church next door? What precisely is wrong with getting better at one's own kind of churchmanship? What does "particular form of Christian expression" even mean in this context?

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I have to say IngoB always strikes me as rather... Paisleyite.

It's basically Pavlovian: critique principles and you will be attacked with ad hominems. [Roll Eyes] When I tell Protestants that they are of the Anti-Christ, then you may have the semblance of a point. Oh, and try not to drool on the carpet when I return to serious discussion now.

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I’m sorry if it came across as wishing to hold a position or defend it. In fact I think I was trying to do the opposite.

How very liberal with charismatic leanings of you...

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
In short I do not believe what I describe as churchmanship but others might describe differently as factionalism or at its worst tribalism does not exist in the Roman Catholic Church.

Indeed. One might even say that Roman Catholicism is all about tribes. Some have official blessing, e.g., the Dominicans. Some are loose assemblies united by a shared hatred, for example the rad-trads. Some are Catholic only in the sense that they wondrously claim that they are, like the Tabletistas. Roman Catholicism is really quite a lot like the historical Roman Empire, at least as busy trying to keep its internal peace with bribes, diplomacy and military intervention as being concerned with what lies outside its borders.

But I don't share your vision of what would be a better state of affairs. To stick with the Roman Empire analogy, I wish to both raise the glass to the Roman Emperor and like my piece of the Roman Empire, my people, the best. I think tribes are the way forward, because they are what is natural to us. They are not to be overcome, they must be managed towards a common purpose. Sheep naturally come in herds, and the idea of breaking those up and mixing them is false. Let each sheep follow their bellwether and let the shepherds direct their bellwethers to a place on the pasture. And there is no problem either with different shepherds leading their herds to different pastures, as long as these are all on the lands of the King.

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My fear is that hidden in your text is the unwritten truth hidden in all deeply held positions which is “you either believe exactly what I believe or what you believe is wrong.”

There is not just black and white. There is something like this HSV cylinder. There is Value, and if it goes low I will combat that darkness as evil or heresy. There is Saturation and if that goes low I will denounce that lightness as sloth or lukewarmness (not too loudly, since that is my own main failing...). But then there is Hue, and I enjoy that there are many, as long as I can stick with mine.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
As Hans Kung very recently said - 'It's not about liberal and conservative; it's about being open minded or closed minded'

Hmm. Should I find the parallelism in that sentence vaguely offensive?
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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I sometimes clash with daronmedway but here I'm giving him a [Cool]

That said, as I'm sure he'd agree himself, I don't think that there's anything wrong in holding to a particular position - be it a Calvinistic one, a Catholic one, an Orthodox one or whatever else ... a hatless one, say ... [Biased]

Provided we recognise these things for what they are and hold them provisionally in the light of the overall scheme of things - ie. the acceptance that we might ultimately be wrong but are acting in accordance with our convictions and in the light of the evidence available to us ...

Certainly. For example, the day I embraced Reformed soteriology was a very significant spiritual experience for me, but it doesn't qualify as foundational. It may be that one day I will abandon that theology for something that satisfies me more. However, the experience of becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ is utterly foundational to my spiritual identity. To abandon the objective reality of that experience would, for me, be tantamount to abandoning Christ.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What was confusing? OK, he talked about ministers. ... When your churchmanship becomes a reason (in your mind) to travel long distances to spend weeks of your time with others of the same churchmanship, learning how to do your particular form of Christian expression better, yet you aren't prepared to walk down the road to the church next door ...

Well, I wasn't really expecting a discussion of the depressing daily life of ministers, or the ways in which they suck up in order to have a career. As for your point, it's more of the same Pyx_eian confusion. What precisely would one be looking for in the church next door? What precisely is wrong with getting better at one's own kind of churchmanship? What does "particular form of Christian expression" even mean in this context?
There is precisely nothing wrong with getting better at one's own kind of churchmanship. But, there is something wrong if in doing so we neglect the possibility of finding something important in other forms of churchmanship. If your churchmanship results in a blinkered view of the rest of the Christian experience then there is something wrong, surely? If, as a non-Anglican evangelical, I consider churches who do not share my particular preferences in worship, spirituality and theological emphasis as not worth my time sharing fellowship with (except, perhaps, if they join me on my terms) then I have a big problem. I hasten to add that I hope I don't think that way, though I've known many evangelicals who do.

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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It's a bit of a problem amongst Anglo-Catholics, because in general we have been advocates of a programme that we believe should extend to the rest of the Anglican world. The programme isn't so much about wanting everyone to adopt smells and bells, as it is wanting everyone to practice reservation of the MBS, confess the Real Presence in no uncertain terms, celebrate the Eucharist as a sacrifice marked by ample solemnity, and so forth. I think we really do want everyone else to adopt certain essential elements of our programme, and we're also keen to extend our programme to Lutherans and various quarters that have high church leanings in other denominations. We might find low-ish ceremonial quaint and acceptable as long as done with ample dignity and the "right" theology, though we aren't keen to promote their way of doing things. We positively hate presiding at the Eucharist in street attire, using overhead projectors to display hymn lyrics and liturgical texts, and all other things belonging to the modern evangelical Anglican camp.

Speak for yourself. I have no desire whatsoever to persuade the rest of the Anglican world, let alone the church as a whole, to adopt AC practices. Indeed, I've had to recognise recently that this particular churchmanship is not meeting our spiritual needs as a family, howsoever it may chime with me as an individual, at the moment and have found better (for us, now) sustenance elsewhere.

Pyx_e is absolutely on the money, as was Screwtape when he pointed out that the variety of churchmanship and practice in the CofE could have been a hotbed of charity and understanding.

[ 13. November 2012, 10:30: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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posted by daron:
quote:

Hmm. Should I find the parallelism in that sentence vaguely offensive?

No, I think you've missed his point

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Staretz Silouan

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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It's difficult in a village environment - where there is only one church. If that church has extreme and blinkered views, so much that they cannot accept those in their midst who are of a different churchmanship, their attitude is that those people have to be completely assimilated and renounce their alternative views, or else have to leave and go elsewhere (often many miles away and remote from other family/friendship/social ties).

That way, the church never learns from other ideas and input; also the individual Christian can end up thinking that his or her experience of God is 'bad' and unacceptable. Neither of which is spiritually healthy.

[ 13. November 2012, 10:40: Message edited by: Chorister ]

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If your churchmanship results in a blinkered view of the rest of the Christian experience then there is something wrong, surely?

Obviously, since the word "blinkered" indicates that there is something wrong. However, this statement tries to imply what it fails to argue, namely that certain forms of churchmanship are in fact blinkered. Well, which ones are, and in what sense?

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If, as a non-Anglican evangelical, I consider churches who do not share my particular preferences in worship, spirituality and theological emphasis as not worth my time sharing fellowship with (except, perhaps, if they join me on my terms) then I have a big problem.

Is that so? It seems to me that there is an underlying ideological commitment here to some unspoken definition of "sharing fellowship", and an implied value scale of what is "worth your time".

Yet if it is so obvious what a Christian (minister) must do with his or her time, then maybe we can afford some clarity in spelling that out?

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If your churchmanship results in a blinkered view of the rest of the Christian experience then there is something wrong, surely?

Obviously, since the word "blinkered" indicates that there is something wrong. However, this statement tries to imply what it fails to argue, namely that certain forms of churchmanship are in fact blinkered. Well, which ones are, and in what sense?
I don't think there is any form of churchmanship that is necessarily blinkered. But some people within some of those forms of churchmanship certainly appear to be.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I would label it as essentially a postmodern christian view. Time to get past the labels and move on.

The only good to come out of postmodernity is its trenchant critique of sola scriptura.
In your opinion.

In reality postmodernism has questioned all truth claims (besides individual experience - because that's ultimately what we all base our lives on if we probe far enough in the intellectual quagmire of history). Tradition, reason, science - you name it. And this is proved by history.

If you claim the Roman Catholic church has "truth", it is only because you have experienced it as such. There is no other way you can claim truth for that particular institution.

The deepest thinkers (like Pxy_e) realise that, and get on with getting on.

Doesn't mean you have to agree with everyone however - not at all.

One is quite entitled to persuade others to their particular truth claim.

It has always been thus since time immemorial.

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Pyx_e is absolutely on the money, as was Screwtape when he pointed out that the variety of churchmanship and practice in the CofE could have been a hotbed of charity and understanding.

Oh but that would be far too Christian.

[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

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a theological scrapbook

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But I don't share your vision of what would be a better state of affairs. To stick with the Roman Empire analogy, I wish to both raise the glass to the Roman Emperor and like my piece of the Roman Empire, my people, the best. I think tribes are the way forward, because they are what is natural to us. They are not to be overcome, they must be managed towards a common purpose. Sheep naturally come in herds, and the idea of breaking those up and mixing them is false. Let each sheep follow their bellwether and let the shepherds direct their bellwethers to a place on the pasture. And there is no problem either with different shepherds leading their herds to different pastures, as long as these are all on the lands of the King.

Isn't that exactly what Pyx_e was saying to start with? That we are indeed "all on the lands of the King", and it doesn't really matter to Him which specific herd we happen to be a part of or shepherd we happen to be following? And that we should recognise that those other herds following other shepherds are also "on the lands of the King" and, ultimately, His?

quote:
There is not just black and white. There is something like this HSV cylinder. There is Value, and if it goes low I will combat that darkness as evil or heresy. There is Saturation and if that goes low I will denounce that lightness as sloth or lukewarmness (not too loudly, since that is my own main failing...). But then there is Hue, and I enjoy that there are many, as long as I can stick with mine.
Yes, but you wouldn't say that blue isn't really a colour just because your preferred hue was red would you? You wouldn't demand that all who prefer green should repent and accept that red is the One And Only True Hue would you? That's the sort of shit I though Pyx_e was ranting about.

And in not doing either of those things, might you even come to see that the blues and greens of this world actually have something to offer, even if only as an occasional contrast that highlights your preferred colour even more? An all-red or all-blue sky is pretty boring, but get those colours together in the right proportions and you've got something beautiful.

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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I can see two sides of an intellectual argument here:

1) Churchmanship is a bad thing

versus

2) Distaste for churchmanship is inherently a form of churchmanship (it's a bit like the argument that atheism is a faith/religion)

But in practical terms, it is truly depressing when, say, planning for a celebration becomes an argument over whether there should be the organ and robed choir or the piano and folk choir and, even worse, where the choir should sit.

And in personal terms, I think I see the fact that I am called to express my faith sacramentally as exactly that - a calling - not a choice that reflects well, or badly on me.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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I was 'converted' in an Anglican evangelical church round the age of ten but 'moved up the candle' in my teens. Maybe it was teenage rebellion, maybe fascination with ceremonial, but I didn't see it as leaving evangelicalism; more as topping it up with the full faith - Mary and the saints, devotion to the Blessed sacrament, sacramental confession etc.

Later, I came to see evangelicals as 'the enemy' because they tended towards fundamentalism, had too much of the puritanical zeal condemned by the likes of Richard hooker, were killjoys and pushed penal substitutionary atonement as the only truth about the cross.

All that has changed. For the past 20 years, it seems like God has been 'rubbing my nose in' evangelicals. I have worked with clergy from an evangelical background, though moving away from it.

Because this diocese clusters parishes together, there are three evangelical clergy in our group and I have got to know them reasonably well.

I think I like the mixture. Different worship styles and different types of believing appeal to different types of people, so the comprehensiveness of the C of E ought to be a positive thing.

However, there must be some discernment and truth. If women who feel they have a vocation to ordained ministry are thwarted by anglo-catholicism, if LGBTs are spiritually oppressed by evangelicals, then there has to be an end to the amount of tolerance given to those of other churchpersonships.

Likewise, when some evangelicals pour leftover consecrated wine down the drain as a proud demonstration of what they do NOT believe about Holy Communion, then I go all tribal in my opposition to them.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It's a bit of a problem amongst Anglo-Catholics, because in general we have been advocates of a programme that we believe should extend to the rest of the Anglican world. The programme isn't so much about wanting everyone to adopt smells and bells, as it is wanting everyone to practice reservation of the MBS, confess the Real Presence in no uncertain terms, celebrate the Eucharist as a sacrifice marked by ample solemnity, and so forth. I think we really do want everyone else to adopt certain essential elements of our programme, and we're also keen to extend our programme to Lutherans and various quarters that have high church leanings in other denominations. We might find low-ish ceremonial quaint and acceptable as long as done with ample dignity and the "right" theology, though we aren't keen to promote their way of doing things. We positively hate presiding at the Eucharist in street attire, using overhead projectors to display hymn lyrics and liturgical texts, and all other things belonging to the modern evangelical Anglican camp.

Speak for yourself. I have no desire whatsoever to persuade the rest of the Anglican world, let alone the church as a whole, to adopt AC practices. Indeed, I've had to recognise recently that this particular churchmanship is not meeting our spiritual needs as a family, howsoever it may chime with me as an individual, at the moment and have found better (for us, now) sustenance elsewhere.

Pyx_e is absolutely on the money, as was Screwtape when he pointed out that the variety of churchmanship and practice in the CofE could have been a hotbed of charity and understanding.

Whilst realising that this discussion is about churchmanship as a larger, general, and ostensibly malevolent factor in Christian identification, I want to point out at the more specific and parochial (provincial?) level that there is a distinct pond difference here between the CofE and TEC. The former includes a far wider range of churchmanship than is true for the latter except in numerically small fringes on the extreme margins. Anglo-Catholicism actually did succeed with the 1979 BCP in imposing the general parameters of its programme on the entire national province in the USA, albeit largely in the contemporary iteration of liberal Affirming Catholicism. Further, the more cosmetic ceremonial bits of the programme have been generally assimilated throughout the national province, sometimes for occasional use (incense) and on other points as the overwhelming majority practice (eucharistic vestments). As a result, churchmanship is hardly on the radar anymore in TEC, as broadly speaking there is a fairly universal house-style).

[ 13. November 2012, 12:24: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
In reality postmodernism has questioned all truth claims (besides individual experience - because that's ultimately what we all base our lives on if we probe far enough in the intellectual quagmire of history). Tradition, reason, science - you name it.

Indeed. And that's why postmodernism is just insane. What started out as some valid points about texts and their interpretation became an all encompassing ideology that attempted to destroy the very fabric of rational thought. Mostly it just ended up wrecking the humanities though...

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If you claim the Roman Catholic church has "truth", it is only because you have experienced it as such. There is no other way you can claim truth for that particular institution.

That's bullshit in oh so many ways, but for this one: Christianity does require faith. And we didn't need postmodernism to figure out that one.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
One is quite entitled to persuade others to their particular truth claim.

Why would one though, on the postmodernist account?

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Isn't that exactly what Pyx_e was saying to start with? That we are indeed "all on the lands of the King", and it doesn't really matter to Him which specific herd we happen to be a part of or shepherd we happen to be following? And that we should recognise that those other herds following other shepherds are also "on the lands of the King" and, ultimately, His?

On one hand, there simply is lack of gradation in Pyx_e's rant. The differences between an atheist and a Christian are not the same as between a Muslim and a Jew, which are other than between a Protestant and a Catholic, which are again not the same as between a charismatic and a traditional Catholic, which are furthermore not the same as between liberal Anglicans and cafeteria Catholics. But the degree to which we can "have communion" or more generally interact, practice together, learn from each other, etc. is not independent of these various degrees of differences.

On the other hand, I think there's a more subtle disagreement. It is quite difficult to state that one precisely though, because Pyx_e is an old hand and even in ranting is pre-empting possible attacks carefully... I think I can pinpoint it to this though: "the kingdom is near and may actually be found not in doing what you have done for the last 20 years or in adhering to petty and unfulfilling labels". Whereas I would say that the kingdom is more likely to be found in doing the same thing for another 20 years, and more intensely, no matter what petty labels may get attached to that by others. I think there is subtle denial of diversity going on in this requirement of a broad perspective. That little patch of land you have, it may not be enough. Look over here and over there, isn't that grass perhaps greener than yours? Whereas I think that not much is needed, and that one needs to go deep not broad. One can dig deep on even a small patch of land. And perhaps there is an even subtler underlying cause. My unity with other RCs is to a considerable extent formal and mechanistic. That sounds terrible, but it is just the opposite. In the end I don't have to be spiritually universal in person. I don't have to be a hero of faith who can understand and judge all that is out there. I can ask "do they hang with Rome"? And if yes, then I can either embrace them or wish them Godspeed, but at any rate, I can get back to working out my salvation in fear and trembling, and let them take care of theirs.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, but you wouldn't say that blue isn't really a colour just because your preferred hue was red would you?

No, I wouldn't. And it seems to me that in the following you simply try to steal my point. My point was in fact that different hues are not a problem, indeed enjoyable, but rather it is the lack of value and saturation that is the problem.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Chorister

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# 473

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

But in practical terms, it is truly depressing when, say, planning for a celebration becomes an argument over whether there should be the organ and robed choir or the piano and folk choir and, even worse, where the choir should sit.


For which the poor old choir later get blamed when in reality they are not party to the decision-making. We just get told later where to go. Sometimes literally! [Biased]

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Edward Green
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# 46

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Churchmanship in terms of subcultural groups within the church is not very healthy - Be it camp catholics or earnest evangelicals. Not that I have an issue with camp or earnest, but rather it is is easy to write other Christians off just because they talk, pray or look different. Yes it has happened to most of us I imagine.

And then it gets used as an excuse to not engage in genuine and pressing theological difference. I am not an anglo-catholic because it is my tradition, but because the sacrifice of the mass is central to my whole understanding of the Christian faith - as is my understanding of renewal and the charismatic.

The danger is that in being nice we neglect our real differences and in my experience these can fester.

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Chorister

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# 473

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That's the beauty of the ship - where we can talk about such things openly and honestly. (But where there are some baselines to prevent people from actually killing each other.) Now how to translate that into a church setting...

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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CL
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# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
As Hans Kung very recently said - 'It's not about liberal and conservative; it's about being open minded or closed minded'

Kung being so open-minded that his brain fell out.
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fletcher christian

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Damn, you really burned him! Lol.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Bullshit yourself IngoB.

A counterargument to your finest.

Roman Catholic distinctive truth is no more truth than mine or Muslim or materialist.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Roman Catholic distinctive truth is no more truth than mine or Muslim or materialist.

Truth is the equation of mind with thing, not the proof of such equation. You may claim (falsely, but more defensibly) that all these "distinctive" truths are similarly unprovable. But if you judge who speaks more or less truth, then you must know what is true. And thus you must know the truth value of every "distinctive" claim of Roman Catholicism, your own Christianity, Islam and materialism.

Well, feel free to share.

[ 13. November 2012, 20:39: Message edited by: IngoB ]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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True.

My truth is that those distinctives are infinitely valid, true unto death for those who exclude themselves by them. And that I must embrace their otherness. All such excluding distinctives are completely untrue for me of course. I exclude them [Smile] But not their adherents. Whom I must respect, embrace in their exclusion of me.

As my Jesus did and commands.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I have to say IngoB always strikes me as rather... Paisleyite.

It's basically Pavlovian: critique principles and you will be attacked with ad hominems. [Roll Eyes] When I tell Protestants that they are of the Anti-Christ, then you may have the semblance of a point. Oh, and try not to drool on the carpet when I return to serious discussion now.
,

But I - and my Dominican - were commenting on style not content. Instead of vertical division by doctrine, you have a horizontal stratification by taste and temperament. It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it...

Amusingly, your last sentence in particular is just such a gem of courtesy as I can well imagine proceeding from the pulpit in Martyrs Memorial.

Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
But I - and my Dominican - were commenting on style not content. Instead of vertical division by doctrine, you have a horizontal stratification by taste and temperament. It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it...

LOL. Good luck at making that one stick. I care little about than how other people live their faith, as long as it is the right one. And my style here on SoF doesn't change for persons, faiths, or anything - ever. Perhaps try the diagonal next? No, like Ian Paisley I'm indeed hung up about the "vertical" official doctrine and discipline stuff. But that's pretty much the only parallel you can draw to that man.

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Amusingly, your last sentence in particular is just such a gem of courtesy as I can well imagine proceeding from the pulpit in Martyrs Memorial.

You compare me to Ian freaking Paisley and expect courtesy in return? Perhaps compare me to Stalin next and I will send you some flowers...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Paisley made peace, was reconciled to Martin McGuinness. You should be honoured.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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