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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Singleness, celibacy, relationships and harm
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This is a thought spinning out of a Dead Horses thread where Matt Black has said
quote:
I am a heterosexual male, married, with no sex life whatsoever (and none for some time). I have heterosexual impulses, quite strong ones as it happens. I am tempted, sorely at times, by several of the mums at the school gate,and indeed other women, married and single/ divorced, one or two of whom have indicated that they might be 'up for something'.
Should I, following your logic, follow through on my impulses or suppress them?
(You see, things aren't always as rosy in the straight sexual garden as you might think...)
and some of the painful recent posts on the Dating thread in All Saints where Hazey*Jane posted this article and the Readers' stories of being single
How do we handle our sexualities to do no harm? When both people within a relationship have different libidos (and I know this varies with time and circumstances) is having an affair an appropriate response? What would be?
If we love our neighbour as ourselves and know ourselves to be damaged, is it fair to get into relationships?
How do we handle the frustrations of being single?
Can we be called to celibacy? or how do we deal with celibacy if we are not called to it without harming others?
(I am dealing with quite a bit of this, but would prefer to ask questions first and respond when others have)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Gah, what an uncomfortable subject.
I think at times we all experience things we don't want and wouldn't choose. I don't think having an affair is a sensible move, because the risk of trust breakdown is profound.
It is hard to know what to say that doesn't sound ridiculous, although do wonder if some of the tension could be lessened by getting busy doing some other activity. The alternative is that we find excuses to do the things we normally wouldn't countenance every time we experience a hard thing we wouldn't have chosen.
Hard though. I know that I don't make good choices in stressful situations.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
That's quite a good article, but it veer's close to a certain self pity which I can't imagine to be very good for one. But I was amused to read the dinner party questions. I'm always amused when I watch certain people being asked if they are married, and if they say 'no', the questioner looks at them with pity and sadness as if they've just announced they have terminal cancer or something.
The flip side is that in my line of work I see a lot of deeply unhappy marriages; people who have been so desperate not to be alone and to conform to the social norm that they are literally living in hell. I never quite understand it to be honest and I wonder what the long term prospects are for them and their mental health quite apart from anything else.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Elemental
Apprentice
# 17407
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
<snip>
How do we handle our sexualities to do no harm? When both people within a relationship have different libidos (and I know this varies with time and circumstances) is having an affair an appropriate response? What would be?
If we love our neighbour as ourselves and know ourselves to be damaged, is it fair to get into relationships?
How do we handle the frustrations of being single?
Can we be called to celibacy? or how do we deal with celibacy if we are not called to it without harming others?
(I am dealing with quite a bit of this, but would prefer to ask questions first and respond when others have) [/QB]
I think this is a really interesting and relevant post, arising from a slightly laboured and (in my case) anger-generating thread.
I personally am struggling with a lot of this. I am still in mourning for what I thought was the relationship that I would be in forever and I know that I am damaged. I am also not naturally called to celibacy.
I don't have a problem with sex outside a committed relationship per se although it lacks much that is precious within one.
So where do I go from here? Part of me desperately wants a relationship and the wise part of me knows anything embarked on ATM would be polluted by my current mental state.
The one thing that seems to me to be vital here, whether single and lonely, or pair-bonded and struggling, is honesty.
Honesty with oneself as to what exactly one seeks if single - is it sex, companionship, an antidote to loneliness?
Honesty with one's partner as to the impact of the struggles on the relationship. IMO, it is difficult to say that an affair (with all the associated dishonesty) is the answer, especially where a libido imbalance is the response to external circumstances, when say one partner is chronically unwell or overworked.
What if it is a physical issue? I suffered nerve damage after surgery that made it uncertain for well over a year whether I would ever be able to be sexually active again. My partner did not look elsewhere, although I would have been sympathetic to the urge to do so, if not necessarily to any action taken.
I spent considerable time pondering the future if it were to become permanent. Should I be "noble" and part from my partner permanently, knowing her libido to be too high for permanent abstinence? Was it better to lose her in stages, suggesting sexual encounters elsewhere to fill that need? Would that not merely lead to emotional distance and jealousy? I never found a "right" answer.
A simple "no sex outside a committed relationship" sanction seems an extremely simplistic view for many circumstances.
Even though do no harm is a huge part of my world view, I don't have an answer. Can we go with do minimal harm and still consider ourselves moral beings?
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If anything is sacred, everything is
Posts: 16 | From: On the water | Registered: Nov 2012
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Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
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Posted
Interesting thread, I have never felt "frustrated" at still being single, and celibate. Although I would not want to take a "vow of celibacy", as I don't think I could keep it for the rest of my life - circumstances and events that happen in life can take you by surprise, and this thread resonates with me in the situation I now find myself in:
Whilst holidaying in Spain back in June this year,and staying at my mother's house over there, I met her neighbour a Russian lady. A few days later, some of her family including her son came to stay, There was a party in the village to celebrate St John's Night/Midsummer, and the neighbours were there, and I got chatting to the neighbour's son. It turned out that he was the same age as me, and lived in Spain. He told me that he was divorced. We "clicked" immediately and got on extremely well.
I had my friend staying with me at my mother's house, so I did not go on any dates with the Russian guy. Instead, after that, we kept in touch via Facebook and MSN chat, and we talked most evenings for 2 or 3 hours at a time.
Recently I went to Spain again, this time with family, but I went out there a few days before they did. I met up with the Russian guy again, and started a relationship with him (or was it a holiday romance??), he was quite reticent, but I put this down to shyness, as he is a very quiet, private sort of person. However, one evening he admitted to me that he was actually married to a Spanish woman, and had been so for 15 years. He told me that he and his wife did not get on, that she didn't love him and that they didn't even have a sex life any more. He said that he stayed married because he still loved his wife, and he hated the thought of splitting up and all the hurt that that would cause to her and her family. I was shocked that he had lied to me about being divorced when he wasn't, and I told him that it would not be possible for us to continue seeing each other, as committing adultery by having a relationship with a married man (even an unhappily married one) is totally against my religious and personal beliefs and principles, and besides, I (cynically) wasn't sure that I believed all he said about how bad his marriage was. He was upset with what I said, but agreed, and also said that he disliked being unfaithful to his wife too..
A few days later, his mother came back next door. I don't think she knew anything about my "relationship" with her son. However, she told me a lot about her family, including her son - and all he said about his marriage was true, and in fact, his mother told me many more shocking things - which I won't go into. She also said that she worried about her son's mental state at times. Suffice to say, he still loves his wife, has tried to make his marriage work, but his wife does not love him, and treats him with cruelty and indifference, but yet he feels that he would be betraying and hurting her by leaving her. But reading between the lines, I suspect that his wife, who apparently doesn't work, and is somewhat of a socialite, stays with him, as he is quite well off and solvent and has his own business.
I still talk to the Russian guy privately on Facebook, but just casually as friends, and not every day like we used to do, but we don't interact by posting on each other's walls, as some of his and his wife's friends are on his Facebook. We have not spoken about our brief affair or his domestic issues, as we are both uncomfortable about it and find it awkward. I did try to raise the subject, but he replied - quite sharply, that he didn't want to discuss it.
I still feel bad with myself for getting involved with a married man, albeit unknowingly - although my sister (who is not a Christian) thinks I am being "precious" and "silly" about it. She told me, "He's married, but what the hell, and you heard what he and then his mother said about his marriage. You should pursue him, as you don't want to miss a good opportunity of getting yourself a nice boyfriend like him. You only live once"
The trouble is I agree that I have missed a good opportunity, and that I have not met anyone like this guy for a long time, although I am not desperate to be in a relationship. Also, I do not subscribe to the "you-only-live-once" theory, as it seems to me that some people justify their self-indulgence and general selfishness irrespective of the harm they might cause to themselves and others by this way of thinking.
However, I am very uncomfortable at the thought of having any sort of relationship, including a deep platonic one with a married man. On the other hand, if he were to decide to end his marriage, I would not want to be the factor or cause that led him to do this, and all the hurt that that would cause.
[ 14. November 2012, 12:45: Message edited by: Aggie ]
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“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
fwiw, I think you did the right thing, Aggie (not that you need or are asking for my approval). What happens next is unknown, and out of your hands, but whatever happens, I think you can live w/o regrets. If he ends his marriage, you will be free to enter a relationship untainted by the guilt of having caused the split. If he doesn't, well then, I think you can see what would have been if you'd moved forward-- a life of constant secrecy and "less than" and being a shameful secret. I hope you can find peace in your decision, however it turns out.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
There was a 15-minute talk a couple of weeks ago on Radio 4; the speaker was male, about 40 if I remember correctly, single, without a sex life or partner and happy that way. The talk was amusing but there was a serious message in it too, as it was a lament in a way about an atitude that seems to prevail that there must be something wrong with those who are not having an active sexual life, or doing their best to get one. I think I might have one or two useful things to say, but it needs quite a bit of thinking about....
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Mullygrub
Up and over
# 9113
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Posted
Aggie, I so appreciate your honesty, and a lot of what you have shared resonates with me.
I wish I was as strong as you (being very genuine here, not trying to be patronising); recent experience has shown me not to be so much. I would like to go into it here, just don't have the space to do so now.
[ 15. November 2012, 00:23: Message edited by: Mullygrub ]
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Smurfs are weird. And so am I.
Posts: 634 | From: Melbskies | Registered: Feb 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I'm just going to answer the questions I feel I can.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How do we handle the frustrations of being single?
Planning. I've got to cook dinner AND do laundry AND weed the garden AND take the garbage out AND pay the bills et cetera, so I make sure I plan enough time to do all that, and yet also get rest. If that means the dishes sit in the sink for a day or two, so what?
Oh, wait, are you referring to 'frustrations'? 'Cause those are easy to handle if'n you're handling yourself.
And if that's not clear enough, I *am* talking about masturbation.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Can we be called to celibacy? or how do we deal with celibacy if we are not called to it without harming others?
Yes you can be called to celibacy. You can also be called to celibacy for only a time. You can also be called to the single life and not celibacy.
And if you're called to singlehood and not celibacy, the best way to handle any relationships you get into is communicating very openly about your needs, wants, desires, and future plans.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I thought quite a while about whether I should post on this thread because while it's very relevant to me it's not something I've ever really talked about even with close friends.
The truth of it is that I have never, in my late twenties now, had a physically close relationship with anyone.
To say that brings about a huge sense of shame and failure for me as an individual which on one level I reject utterly but then part of me takes as true and worries about.
I am very happy single, what I am not happy with is what that singleness seems to imply about me and the assumptions society draws about me as a consequence. I am professionally successful and have a good network of friends, hobbies and interests but I feel like I have to use those things as '...yes but..' defenses of the fact I am not in a relationship.
Do I think I may be missing out on a part of life? Yes. Is my life empty because it's not in it? No.
I'm not sure why it is that it hasn't happened for me. It just hasn't.
The codependent couples thing really bugs me too. 'We like this...' 'We thought that...' Why can't you embrace your inner 'I'?
I do think about whether I should actually just chuck in the towel and say okay I am now celibate just as I did when I said I was teetotal so people would stop pressuring me to overdrink. But I really don't see why I should.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Whilst I appreciate the scope for more general discussion, in view of responses so far I'm just going to check out with Hosts whether the thread might be better suited for All Saints. This thread is on a parallel theme.
On another tack you might want to bear in mind Purgatory Guideline 4, which incorporates a good general principle re public discussion boards.
quote:
4. Personal stuff
If you find it necessary to share things of a personal nature then remember you have a large audience looking in. Personal statements should be respected by other posters
please be aware of the cost involved for the person making them.
Feel free to continue while we're having a chat on Host Board.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The way this thread has gone has been more personal than I expected and really crossed over with the singles thread on All Saints.
What I was hoping to explore was the assumptions that everyone is incomplete unless partnered and the importance placed on sexual fulfilment. Having said I'd post something more I'm posting some thoughts.
As someone who is single after relationships when I was younger, I know that I come with a lot of baggage that makes me unwilling to inflict myself on someone else. But the assumptions are that I am so desperate to be in a relationship that I will chase after other women's husbands, particularly within the church community, which is where I meet couples. That hasn't made church a good place. My experience is that unless you're of a certain age, a single woman is regarded with suspicion.
Additionally there is an assumption that I must want to date, not just go out in company rather than on my own.
I also think that the use of sex to sell anything and everything means that sex is given undue importance. Sometimes a cuddle would be nice.
The thought about inflicting damage was a vague thought around affairs, prostitution and getting into doomed relationships because of the perceived need to be partnered.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Oh, wait, are you referring to 'frustrations'? 'Cause those are easy to handle if'n you're handling yourself.
And if that's not clear enough, I *am* talking about masturbation.
Yeah, but that only 'handles' the physical side of things (in fact I even think it only deals with just part of that); it doesn't in any way shape or form deal with my need to be cherished sexually, to be desired and found at least vaguely attractive in the eyes of another, in short to be 'fancied'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
What Matt Black just said. 100%
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Yes. Sensations without feelings.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Back in the OP; I'm sure there is a call to celibacy. In fact I was talking to a nun at a funeral a couple of weeks ago about this very issue. (How strange is that?)
Well, it wasn't all that strange. She was the daughter of the deceased; my wife and I know her sister very well. She read the lesson at her father's funeral.
Afterwards, we got to talking about calls to be monks or nuns and how they came about. She brought up vows of poverty, chastity and obedience; basically said she did feel a very powerful call in that direction and saw the vows as intrinsic to the call. She had a good idea of what she was getting into. Lovely, gentle and kindly woman.
I suspect however that the call is relatively rare. Also, it is quite obvious that living with singleness and being called to celibacy are not the same thing. We've met an awful lot more people who have talked about that, have found married folks' lack of understanding of the state of singleness to be quite painful and insensitive. Particularly church people, and particularly about the sexual implications of singleness.
But I'm not really qualified to speak about a condition which hasn't applied to me since 1968. Other than to express sorrow for lack of understanding and empathy.
[ 15. November 2012, 14:22: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Oh, sorry, I should have said first.
The Hosts' discussion - the thread can stay in Purgatory.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Oh, wait, are you referring to 'frustrations'? 'Cause those are easy to handle if'n you're handling yourself.
And if that's not clear enough, I *am* talking about masturbation.
Yeah, but that only 'handles' the physical side of things (in fact I even think it only deals with just part of that); it doesn't in any way shape or form deal with my need to be cherished sexually, to be desired and found at least vaguely attractive in the eyes of another, in short to be 'fancied'.
This is very important; it was the worst aspect of the years I spent before meeting Mrs KLB.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
OK long term single signing in.
I am now in my middle years, I have had enough relationships to know I a heterosexual but none have lasted longer than a year and there have not been many. My last one showed me that if the right person did come along I would probably be interested. We would have to be more than just sexually attracted but I also know that I may well need the attraction to let them past first base. So no real feeling of call to celibacy, no really strong attachment to that state, its the default option as far as I am concerned.
However no real frustration either, the members of the opposite sex I do fancy are few and far between (it is just none of the same sex). I do not often have an strong desire for intimacy and I do have strong interests that I will often follow rather than seeking intimacy. When I was at University there were far more interesting things than finding a partner, when I graduated learning to be an adult took some time and the last decade my thesis has come first, second and third and has taken up all the extra resources. Yes I do find learning about something I am interested more absorbing than sex. I am amongst the eternally curious and that drive is far more powerful than my sex drive.
So where do I stand, well relationships of all sorts are important and the old fashioned qualities of loyalty, integrity and caring seem central to them. I tend not to have an exclusive one but I know I need to tend and care for those that are near me.
I equally know I need space and people to listen to me, I am willing to listen to others in return. It however becomes harder to develope such friendships and relationship and they always need tending and caring and building (life has a habit of moving people into new situations).
In someways I would like a base or a commitment group built around mutual support and accountability, but I know I also like my freedom to please myself and indulge my intellectual curiosity. I suspect if I conformed and got a partner at the price of not following my curiousity I would be less fulfilled.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Oh, wait, are you referring to 'frustrations'? 'Cause those are easy to handle if'n you're handling yourself.
And if that's not clear enough, I *am* talking about masturbation.
Yeah, but that only 'handles' the physical side of things (in fact I even think it only deals with just part of that); it doesn't in any way shape or form deal with my need to be cherished sexually, to be desired and found at least vaguely attractive in the eyes of another, in short to be 'fancied'.
This exactly.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
If two people in a committed relationship have very widely differing libidos, that is a problem within the relationship, imo. I'm not sure I believe that any one person has no libido at all and does not want any sex at all. Not without a medical reason or a reason that exists within the relationship. As far as "do no harm", I think there might already be harm within such a relationship. Both, or at the very least one, is already "being harmed" by being in a unfulfilling relationship. I think the answer is, as others have said or alluded to, is honesty. Honesty is hard as hell. But the honest truth is that within an unfulfilling relationship, humans look beyond that relationship for that fulfillment. It's almost inevitable.
Having an affair is never an appropriate response, however, an open relationship might be. But, for another thread.
If someone "knows themselves to be damaged" then the problem lies within that person's value of themselves as a human being. No one is too damaged to not ever be in a relationship.
I don't believe anyone is "called to be celibate", because being agnostic (sometimes bordering on atheist), means that I don't believe anyone is "calling" in the first place.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I'm unsure if there is such a thing as a "call to celibacy." When I say that, I don't mean that people can't be celibate, what I'm saying is that I don't think celibacy is ever an end in itself.
In the monastic context, one is called to live in a monastic community. In order to fully live out that monastic vocation, one makes certain vows (poverty, obedience, celibacy) as a means towards that end.
Or an artist, dedicated wholly to her artistic career, may decide to forego romantic relationships in order to concentrate on her artistic call.
I was told many, many years ago by someone that the mere act of abstaining from sexual activity, is by itself, no moral virtue to commended. But the act of abstention for the purpose of a higher end, such as living faithfully within a monastic community, may be in fact commended.
Likewise, one can argue that participation in sexual activity is by itself, not noteworthy. But, if it is motivated towards the end of greater love and affection towards one's partner, then indeed, it is good. The ethical question is in the purpose of the activity.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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infinite_monkey
Shipmate
# 11333
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Posted
quote:
If we love our neighbour as ourselves and know ourselves to be damaged, is it fair to get into relationships?
I think there's a great deal of difference between seeking out/going into a relationship with the express aim of healing a "damage" within you, and going into a relationship as one "damaged" person relating to another.
I reckon we all have damages and places of need--if we waited to be perfect before relating to each other, we'd never be in any kind of relationship at all. I know I've been, myself, in a space where I am genuinely too knee-deep in damage to be able to relate in a healthy way to a partner--the old saw, I guess, about needing to get one's one oxygen mask on before trying to fiddle with the one next to you. And I have a friend who genuinely worries me with the view he has of relationships--that he desperately needs one, because without someone to take care of him, he can't cope.
That doesn't seem healthy. But I think it's an uncommon extreme. What seems healthy, to me, is a recognition that anyone entering a relationship will have their damages and their broken places--will bring fear and need and selfishness into the mix just as much as generosity and compassion and fulness of heart. It seems like when we understand those shadow parts of ourselves and of others, and we are able to connect despite and beyond them, it can be possible for relationships to be a part of what "heals" us--not the prize we get once we're (impossibly) fully healed.
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His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.
--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com
Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Curiosity killed ...: If we love our neighbour as ourselves and know ourselves to be damaged, is it fair to get into relationships?
Of course it is. But I think the important thing is to be honest about it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Some Christians reckon that celibacy is (or may be) a spiritual gift. Never heard of anyone "earnestly desiring" it (1 Cor 14).
Doesn't the call to live in monastic communities involve a call to celibate living? Mind you, it's not a call I find it easy to relate to. The few folks I've talked to about this were all clear that they weren't born with zero libido. (If you have zero libido then you have no desire from which to abstain. And voluntary abstention for the sake of a wider purpose seems to be the point)
In the current febrile climate, there is a tendency to believe that human beings who aren't looking for some kind of outlet for their sexual desire must be very odd indeed. The idea that it might be a sincere voluntary choice, entered into for a high motive, is I think still accepted, but there seems to be a common view that such a life choice will lead to someone being bent out of shape pyschologically (if they aren't already). Such is the strength of instinctive sexual desire.
I think this was one of the "shocks to the system" of the TV series "The Monastery". The impression created was that the mentoring monks seemed in many cases to be significantly less "bent out of shape" than their voluntary visitors.
I may be a bit counter-cultural on this. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the there are very strong over-sexualising influences in much of Western culture. "I want it all, I want it all, I want it all, I want it now" characterises a certain social pressure resulting from advertising, celebrity culture, the awareness that sex sells.
Of course sexual desires are very strong for most of us, but if there is anything bending many people out of shape psychologically it may be that hyped-up cultural pressure to "succeed" sexually, otherwise you're some kind of failure. That's a constant pressure, and not just on single folk. The whole notion of measuring your sex-life against some kind of idealised norm is completely daft really. Yet it's "there". In your face.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I agree with what your comments about sexualisation Barnabas62 and that was one of the strands that occurred to me when I started this thread, the febrile pressure for sexual fulfilment which adds to the pressure on singles.
Isn't it a common phenomenon that some people keep falling in love with the same type of person? The woman who is attracted by the same violent man and wondering why she ends up beaten, the man who keeps falling for similar unfaithful women and finds himself cheated on again. Haven't we found that attraction / falling in love is a fallible way of finding a life partner? Could breaking cycles of abuse require people to realise that they are attracted to those who will help perpetuate those cycles and make a conscious choice to avoid that consequence? Isn't attraction partially based on models from childhood, the mechanism behind these cycles?
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
If two people in a committed relationship have very widely differing libidos, that is a problem within the relationship, imo. I'm not sure I believe that any one person has no libido at all and does not want any sex at all. Not without a medical reason or a reason that exists within the relationship. As far as "do no harm", I think there might already be harm within such a relationship. Both, or at the very least one, is already "being harmed" by being in a unfulfilling relationship. I think the answer is, as others have said or alluded to, is honesty. Honesty is hard as hell. But the honest truth is that within an unfulfilling relationship, humans look beyond that relationship for that fulfillment. It's almost inevitable.
I am going to challenge this. Pregnancy and childbirth plus bringing up a young child change libido, inevitably. I am not convinced that everyone wants the same amount of sex as everyone else. We wouldn't have the shocked comments about "5 times a night" if that was a universal experience, but it must be the experience of some people at some times. The person who enjoys sex to that extent may find themselves unequally yoked .
[ 16. November 2012, 07:31: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
When asked why I'm permanently single I just tell the (incredibly rude) questioner that it's because I have an obnoxious personality. In reality it's because for a mixture of reasons (of course) but chief among them coming to terms with the fact that being in a couple doesn't make life any easier or more difficult, just different.
But in church circles beig single over a certain age - particularly never having been in a long-term relationship - seems to mark you out as unspiritual more strongly than being a domestic tyrant/doormat.
Funnily enough, since adopting my daughters I have now moved beyond spiritual assessments and almost into sainthood for choosing to be a single mother without the pregnancy/birth aspect. Whereas single mothers who do the pregnancy/birth part move in the opposite direction. Of course, the no pregnancy/birth element says nothing about whether I'm having sex-outside-of-marriage, it's just that no-one can tell...
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I wasn't sure whether to post this on this thread or in All Saints but I think it probably belongs over here.
I think a lot of the judgment of singles comes from the just world fallacy. According to this people who are attractive and functional *deserve* to be in a relationship. Those who are in one congratulate themselves on being attractive and functional, because hey, they found someone so that proves it. They don't want to think that the reason that they found someone that they can form a relationship with has an element of luck to it. Right place, right time, bla bla. The flip side is that a person who "can't find anyone" might be doing something to deserve it. Because in a just world, if they were the right kind of person, they wouldn't be on their own.
My particular version of sucky is usually the "how is a girl like you still single" line. AFAICT I am in the upper percentile of attractive (FWIW, my information on this score mostly comes from heterosexual women, usually with the aforementioned "how are you still single" thing) and I like to think I am a fairly well balanced kind of person and not too unpleasant to be around. But y'know, lady luck hasn't been smiling on me so far.
Unfortunately the real world isn't as fair as many of us would like it to be. Some very kind, charming and attractive people don't end up meeting the right person to be in a couple with. Some fairly hateful ones manage to get married. It's unjust. The real world frequently is. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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drnick
Shipmate
# 16065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
If two people in a committed relationship have very widely differing libidos, that is a problem within the relationship, imo. I'm not sure I believe that any one person has no libido at all and does not want any sex at all.
I have to challenge this. Estimates are that around 1% of the population is asexual - this is defined as not experiencing sexual attraction. There are a growing number of people who identify as an asexual and a growing community. Essentially some people are simply not interested in or have a desire for sex, not because they are broken or damaged but simply because this is their orientation. It is, however, perfectly possible to desire and have a romantic relationship which is not sexual - the two things do not have to go together. However much it challenges aspects of western culture not everybody has a need for sex.
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"Christians like you are why God invented lions" Pagan Wanderer Lu.
Posts: 58 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Dec 2010
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yeah, but that only 'handles' the physical side of things (in fact I even think it only deals with just part of that); it doesn't in any way shape or form deal with my need to be cherished sexually, to be desired and found at least vaguely attractive in the eyes of another, in short to be 'fancied'.
Yes, 100 times over. And I don't mean that I expect my old man to look at me with naked lust after 14 years of marriage. However I would like - love - to experience the joy of knowing for sure that at some point in the day I have resided in his consciousness; that at some point, however fleetingly, he thought of me *intimately*.
Isn't this what it means to vow "to have and to hold"? When people talk about breaking marriage vows, they are almost always talking about adultery. But adultery is only the consequence of failing to hold the other in our heart and mind, and - so that they can know they are held in heart and mind - in our arms.
This is all very difficult and sad. I'm RC, so for my own part, any intimate relationship I were to have while my husband is alive would be adulterous, whether it was an affair or to divorce and remarry. So there are no alternatives.
I have to keep trying to do the having and holding. And hope that it gets better.
When I get depressed, an element of it is always that I know *in theory* that I am held, intimately, in the mind and heart of God. Why can't that be enough for me for now? Perhaps I don't really have faith after all. In which case, why am I living the life I am? And so the unhelpful thoughts go round and round....
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) The theory is fine and dandy, but we all need 'God-with-skin-on'. The pat answer to this is the Incarnation: Jesus is/was 'God-With-Skin-On'. The trouble is in the 'was': He hasn't had skin for nearly 2000 years which leaves us all a bit stuffed on that front
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I wasn't sure whether to post this on this thread or in All Saints but I think it probably belongs over here.
I think a lot of the judgment of singles comes from the just world fallacy. According to this people who are attractive and functional *deserve* to be in a relationship. Those who are in one congratulate themselves on being attractive and functional, because hey, they found someone so that proves it. They don't want to think that the reason that they found someone that they can form a relationship with has an element of luck to it. Right place, right time, bla bla. The flip side is that a person who "can't find anyone" might be doing something to deserve it. Because in a just world, if they were the right kind of person, they wouldn't be on their own.
My particular version of sucky is usually the "how is a girl like you still single" line. AFAICT I am in the upper percentile of attractive (FWIW, my information on this score mostly comes from heterosexual women, usually with the aforementioned "how are you still single" thing) and I like to think I am a fairly well balanced kind of person and not too unpleasant to be around. But y'know, lady luck hasn't been smiling on me so far.
Unfortunately the real world isn't as fair as many of us would like it to be. Some very kind, charming and attractive people don't end up meeting the right person to be in a couple with. Some fairly hateful ones manage to get married. It's unjust. The real world frequently is.
I find that a fascinating post. I was a psychotherapist for 30 years, and there is probably a fallacy, or a group of fallacies, among therapists, that people get what they want.
It's obviously untrue, for example, people don't get cancer because they want to, although there may be some who do want to.
But in relation to relationships, certainly, many therapists argue that people get what they want. Thus, if you end up with a violent man, you wanted that, and so on.
Of course, the wanting is often reckoned to be unconscious, and therefore, acted out, and split off, or some such mechanism. Or if you like, denied.
I do remember quite a number of clients who would complain a lot about the world, about luck, about the lack of available talent, and so on, and eventually, admitted that they had been closed to an intimate relationship, for various reasons, e.g. fear, hostility, and so on. Of course, we don't know that we are closed, so it's a kind of double lock.
It doesn't mean that everybody is, but I think a lot are. Anyway, I am off for a long walk, so I will ponder how incorrect that is.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
I hope I'm not being unfair in thinking there's something really important missing from this discussion, which applies to people in any form of relationship, and that is: self control.
It probably doesn't help some people in this forum that it comes highly recommended in the writings of Saint Paul, but it figures pretty highly in the Sermon on the Mount as well.
My father summed it up pretty succinctly with the advice: Keep it in your trousers!
The fact that I am a lifelong celibate may discredit my views in the eyes of some, but I can tell you that in this area there has always been plenty of self to control, and I don't see my situation as any different from my father's when faced with the urge and the opportunity to play away from home.
Part of the art is the hugely outdated idea (also found in the Sermon on the Mount) of avoiding occasions of sin.
It also strikes me that self control is very helpful in other forms of everyday human relationship...
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
]Yeah, but that only 'handles' the physical side of things (in fact I even think it only deals with just part of that); it doesn't in any way shape or form deal with my need to be cherished sexually, to be desired and found at least vaguely attractive in the eyes of another, in short to be 'fancied'.
This is very important; it was the worst aspect of the years I spent before meeting Mrs KLB.
Huh. Interesting. I've never had that issue. I don't think I even really understand the need you're describing. Which is probably entirely related to my own way of looking at the world and interacting with it.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
@AberVicar - what and where did that opening post say anything about not controlling ourselves. The word self-control wasn't explicitly used but it was asking how we controlled ourselves in this world, dealing with temptations, our own sexualities, the pressures we deal with from other people and the zeitgeist, by which I mean the atmosphere / media / general environment. I'm writing as someone who has been celibate over a decade, so am aware of what self-control involves.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But in relation to relationships, certainly, many therapists argue that people get what they want. Thus, if you end up with a violent man, you wanted that, and so on.
Of course, the wanting is often reckoned to be unconscious, and therefore, acted out, and split off, or some such mechanism. Or if you like, denied.
I think it's much more complicated than that. I have been a single parent and know however much I knew, intellectually, that there was a right way to do certain things, under stress and pushed to the limit, the automatic default is the parenting I experienced. I need to have reserves to override that.
I think the same is true of relationships. However much you know, intellectually, that certain people are a very bad option, it's damn difficult to summon up physical attraction for the "right" person if it's not there and only too easy to be attracted to the wrong person. That sort of thing comes with the instinctual part of our brains that are so difficult to control.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Can we agree two statements:
There are people who experience sexual frustration within a committed relationship
There are people who are not sexually frustrated who are not in a committed relationship.
Then maybe we can start to look outside the standard assumptions and actually start to ask questions about how sexual frustration should be handled whether single or in a committed relationship. The issues may not be so different.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
Er... there isn't anything explicitly about self control in the OP, though it clearly doesn't exclude discussion of it, which doesn't seem to me to have happened - unless I've missed it.
JJ's third paragraph has the merit of clearly focusing the conversation on what is needed to deal with the issues.
There is, however, a danger in carrying out so much navel-gazing in pursuit of a solution that real life and action go by the board. Traditional remedies and wisdom do often have the merit of providing a practical solution that enables us to get on with everyday life.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@AberVicar - what and where did that opening post say anything about not controlling ourselves. The word self-control wasn't explicitly used but it was asking how we controlled ourselves in this world, dealing with temptations, our own sexualities, the pressures we deal with from other people and the zeitgeist, by which I mean the atmosphere / media / general environment. I'm writing as someone who has been celibate over a decade, so am aware of what self-control involves.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But in relation to relationships, certainly, many therapists argue that people get what they want. Thus, if you end up with a violent man, you wanted that, and so on.
Of course, the wanting is often reckoned to be unconscious, and therefore, acted out, and split off, or some such mechanism. Or if you like, denied.
I think it's much more complicated than that. I have been a single parent and know however much I knew, intellectually, that there was a right way to do certain things, under stress and pushed to the limit, the automatic default is the parenting I experienced. I need to have reserves to override that.
I think the same is true of relationships. However much you know, intellectually, that certain people are a very bad option, it's damn difficult to summon up physical attraction for the "right" person if it's not there and only too easy to be attracted to the wrong person. That sort of thing comes with the instinctual part of our brains that are so difficult to control.
Excellent point. But people do eventually wean themselves off the bad option, especially if they get help (although I would say that).
I think it is very hard and painful, as we have to give up some precious possessions, for example, the need to be miserable, to be punished, and to seek revenge, or an intense fear of intimacy, and so on.
Therapists have been talking for a century about the deep human need to be unhappy, and it is staggering how ingenious we are at ensuring it, and yet, we can break that addiction.
I remember one client saying to me, don't take away my depression, it's my secret lover who comes in the night. Probably true for many people.
Jung made the interesting point that it's important to have some bad relationships, in order to sort this stuff out. Well, I had a few! The point is, you can't do it theoretically or intellectually - you have to get your hands dirty.
[ 16. November 2012, 14:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
There is, however, a danger in carrying out so much navel-gazing in pursuit of a solution that real life and action go by the board. Traditional remedies and wisdom do often have the merit of providing a practical solution that enables us to get on with everyday life.
In my view, you *are* being unfair. And dismissive. Different people find different aspects of living their faith to be challenging or easy.
To a certain extent, "Stop navel-gazing and get on and do it" could be said to anyone struggling with prayer, with alms-giving, with loving difficult members of their community. It's on a par with telling an over-weight person to stop navel-gazing about what lack in their life they are trying to fill with food and just eat less. Certainly, it enables the teller to feel good and the tellee to feel bad, but it doesn't really achieve anything else.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Therapists have been talking for a century about the deep human need to be unhappy, and it is staggering how ingenious we are at ensuring it, and yet, we can break that addiction.
Not sure how you are using "need" here, but it is problematic. Not saying your scenario does not exist, but I do not think it is typical. ISTM, it is more the fear of change coupled with habit. "I understand this is bad, but I know how to operate here. And change could be worse."
This can be a problem with long term singleness as we humans are very much creatures of habit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Therapists have been talking for a century about the deep human need to be unhappy, and it is staggering how ingenious we are at ensuring it, and yet, we can break that addiction.
Not sure how you are using "need" here, but it is problematic. Not saying your scenario does not exist, but I do not think it is typical. ISTM, it is more the fear of change coupled with habit. "I understand this is bad, but I know how to operate here. And change could be worse."
This can be a problem with long term singleness as we humans are very much creatures of habit.
I agree with that, but I did cite 'an intense fear of intimacy', in the bit you didn't quote. I agree that fear of change is also powerful.
We are very conservative beings, and we tend to repeat stuff. So if your dad smashed you around the chops, you might choose someone to do that again, or you might choose someone to smash them around the chops, or you might just opt out.
There's an old saying in therapy, sometimes actually said to some clients, that you're not desperate enough. It's despair that produces change, not some intellectual decision. You have to get to the end of the line, usually, which is why I agree with Jung, that bad relationships are the engine of change. The big problem is, they're so addictive.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But in relation to relationships, certainly,
many therapists argue that people get what they want. Thus, if you end up with a violent man, you wanted that, and so on.
Here's one woman for whom that is 100% untrue! It was lack of worldly knowledge which made me decide to marry a man who showed no violence beforehand, but began it within days afterwards. If I had been wiser, etc etc. However, having grown stronger and getting divorced after eight years, there was one thing I knew for sure; any new partner would have to be a man with whom I could discuss anything with confidence and on an equal basis. There was a man whose attentions and desirability confirmed that I was in fact a normal female, but I never found anyone to marry again, and have always been at ease with that.
There was a phone-in I happened to catch a few months ago about 'sex and the over-70s'! There was one feisty widow with whom it would have been very interesting to have had a cup of tea and a laugh!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I think a lot of the judgment of singles comes from the just world fallacy. According to this people who are attractive and functional *deserve* to be in a relationship. Those who are in one congratulate themselves on being attractive and functional, because hey, they found someone so that proves it. They don't want to think that the reason that they found someone that they can form a relationship with has an element of luck to it.
That's certainly true.
quote:
My particular version of sucky is usually the "how is a girl like you still single" line.
Even I get that. Well except for the "girl" bit. I think its mostly people trying to be nice. They probably don't really mean it.
And then they come out with sentimental nonsense about how there is Someone Out There for you and you just have to wait till the right one comes along but it will inevitably happen. How do they know that? They don;t and can't of course. It still feels odd - especially when, as last week, two different people saying it were very attraxtive member of the opposite sex who is married to somone else.
And exactly the same fallacy is touted to us every day about success in other fields as well. Especially to do with money and jobs and property. The rich use the news media to try to convince the rest of us that they deserve their wealth and everyoine else is a lazy pile of shit. And too many people fall for it (if they didn't why would anyone not wealthy ever vote for a conservative party?)
Though being single would still be horrible even if everyone approved of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yeah, but that only 'handles' the physical side of things (in fact I even think it only deals with just part of that); it doesn't in any way shape or form deal with my need to be cherished sexually, to be desired and found at least vaguely attractive in the eyes of another, in short to be 'fancied'.
This is very important; it was the worst aspect of the years I spent before meeting Mrs KLB.
Huh. Interesting. I've never had that issue. I don't think I even really understand the need you're describing. Which is probably entirely related to my own way of looking at the world and interacting with it.
Really? That seems so weird. For me its continuous. The kind of thoughts and feelings that Karl and Matt are talking about almost never completely go away. Like hunger or feeling cold. Except there is no food or warmth available. Well not none, but little. Even a smile from a stranger in the street can change my mood for the day. And its not quite the same as sexual desire - except that almost never completely goes away either, and almost never gets satisfied. Not that such things can be neatly separated from sexual desires of course, they are all bound up with each other. But those thoughts and feelings are a continuous background to my entire life and have been since puberty.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was a psychotherapist for 30 years, and there is probably a fallacy, or a group of fallacies, among therapists, that people get what they want.
It's obviously untrue, for example, people don't get cancer because they want to, although there may be some who do want to.
But in relation to relationships, certainly, many therapists argue that people get what they want. Thus, if you end up with a violent man, you wanted that, and so on.
I think that is just a Big Clue that many therapists talk bollocks. Not all, maybe not most, but certainly the ones whoi say things like that.
quote:
Of course, the wanting is often reckoned to be unconscious, and therefore, acted out, and split off, or some such mechanism. Or if you like, denied.
But that's really just a rhetorical stance to ignore any difference of opinion.Whatever the other person says isn't the real truth because it is unconscious or they are "in denial". That language allows the therapist to take charge of the relationship, and if the subject of the therapy goes along with it then the therapists world-view is imposed on them. Its a sort of social control, a mechanism for policing behaviour.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Therapists have been talking for a century about the deep human need to be unhappy...[/qb]
And that isn't just a Big Clue that some therapists talk nonsense its conclusive proof that some of them talk utter crap. There is no "deep human need" to be unhappy. Any more than there is a "need" to be in pain or hungry or lonely or cold or frightened.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I remember one client saying to me, don't take away my depression, it's my secret lover who comes in the night. Probably true for many people.
It probably is, but then they need help and they need curing. That kind of mental self-harming is no more a natural human need than an attack of malaria or a broken leg is a natural human need.
[ 16. November 2012, 15:57: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
SusanDoris
Fair enough. There are no universal rules about these things; there are just tendencies. I think it comes into play particularly with repeated things, thus, you get people who keep ending up in violent relationships (not just women). Then you might wonder about it, and hopefully, the person concerned would also start to wonder about it - why does it keep happening?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Ken
I agree that talk of the unconscious can be abused by therapists, in order to exert a sort of control. This probably happened in parts of psychoanalysis, for example, but I don't think it is inevitable. But one of the reasons for the revolt against analysis was that, to produce greater equality.
Well, we will have to disagree about the 'deep human need to be unhappy'. I think it is endemic, and is obviously linked with guilt, anger, fear, the wish for punishment, and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
why does it keep happening?
Because they do not know how or what to change. A person can certainly be put in a mindset where they do not believe they deserve better, but I do not agree that it is innate.
[ 16. November 2012, 16:20: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
why does it keep happening?
Because they do not know how or what to change. A person can certainly be put in a mindset where they do not believe they deserve better, but I do not agree that it is innate.
Where have I said that it's innate? Fuck me, I'm getting fed up on this thread as I keep being misquoted or quote-mined. Fucking old Riley, I suppose therapy winds people up.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
In my view, you *are* being unfair. And dismissive.
You are obviously entitled to the view that I am unfair to the discussion (though you don't present any evidence), but dismissive? Because I offer an alternative viewpoint? Which in your view can actually be applied to other elements of life?
Hmmm.....
I stick to my point that navel-gazing in any shape or form can be an enemy to the real business of living. Sorry and all that!
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
For me a big thing is my hunger for touch - my family aren't the huggy type, and none of my friends that are live nearby (the friends I have made here are not close enough for me to get past my natural shyness and hug them yet). I don't even mean just sexual touch, although that is part of it - just a physical expression of emotional intimacy and I just feel starved of it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jade Constable: For me a big thing is my hunger for touch - my family aren't the huggy type, and none of my friends that are live nearby (the friends I have made here are not close enough for me to get past my natural shyness and hug them yet). I don't even mean just sexual touch, although that is part of it - just a physical expression of emotional intimacy and I just feel starved of it.
Brazilians don't speak 2 minutes with eachother without some form of touch. I don't want to make fun of your situation, but maybe you're in the wrong country?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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