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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The high church Anglican relationship to Lutherans
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
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Originally posted by ken:
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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Sonata:
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Porvoo is a communion of Anglican (British Isles) and Lutheran (Baltic and Scandinavian) churches...
It includes the episcopal church in Ireland too.
Which was in the British Isles last time I looked at a map.
Less colonialist terminology thank you very much.
No colonialism at all. Just geography. If you have a problem with that take it up with the planet.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Sonata:
quote:
Porvoo is a communion of Anglican (British Isles) and Lutheran (Baltic and Scandinavian) churches...
It includes the episcopal church in Ireland too.
Which was in the British Isles last time I looked at a map.
Less colonialist terminology thank you very much.
No colonialism at all. Just geography. If you have a problem with that take it up with the planet.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
What Uffda and others have said.
Weekly Eucharist is the standard of practice in the ELCA. There are congregations that only celebrate it every other week, but they tend to be old-skool Pietists who are, frankly, dying off, at least in my neck of the woods.
And the only Lutherans I have ever met who did not treat leftover Eucharistic bread and wine with respect -- either eating it/drinking it or disposing of it in a reverent, ritualized way -- were a group of older, not-terribly catechized women who'd been in a pastor-less congregation for several years and had gone rogue for lack of supervision...when a new pastor was finally called by the congregation, he had a come-to-Jesus meeting with the sacristy ladies and made sure they followed the proper protocol.
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
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Originally posted by leo:
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Originally posted by Enoch:
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Originally posted by leo:
... Ours didn't do ablutions. They just dumped the remains on the credence table.
Is it possible that in their home circles, it was somebody else's role to deal with disposal, a verger, or the German equivalent of a churchwarden, say?
I can't ask them now because they have gone back to Bavaria.
However, they specifically refused to do the ablutions and explained why. They also refused the lavabo because they said it connected them to Pontius Pilate - when i explained that it had to do with Eucharistic sacrifice, they said they didn't believe in it.
Their Bavarian origin is important. Bavaria is Roman Catholic, both culturally and religiously. Other churches tend to define themselves as "not Roman Catholic" and emphasize the "not" bits. This is very different from places that are not culturally Catholic like England, Scotland or other Lutheran German states.
In Canada Consitoire Laurentien, the United Church's French-language presbytery is best described as "Open, Liberal, Reactionary and Protestant." From your description, the same very likely goes for your Bavarian Lutherans.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
We receive the objective presence of Christ in the Eucharist whether faithful or faithless. Only the faithful, however, receive the benefit of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament. Oddly, however, I seem to recall that Thomas Aquinas posited that a mouse nibbling on a consecrated Host would not receive Christ (as opposed to the benefit of receiving Christ).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Thanks for explaining, uffda and LutheranChik.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
LutheranChik: made sure they followed the proper protocol.
What exactly would the proper protocol be? I remember at least one occassion when there was some wine left, and the Lutheran pastor asked me to drink it. I guess that's better than throwing it down the sink, and I was happy to make this little personal sacrifice in the name of orthodox (small-o) doctrine ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But would this be right?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
LutheranChik: made sure they followed the proper protocol.
What exactly would the proper protocol be? I remember at least one occassion when there was some wine left, and the Lutheran pastor asked me to drink it. I guess that's better than throwing it down the sink, and I was happy to make this little personal sacrifice in the name of orthodox (small-o) doctrine But would this be right?
What's odd about this? I don't know whether or not it is standard Lutheran practice, but it certainly is the rule in the C of E. Unless you mean that only the priest should consume what is left, which is neither theologically necessary or practically sensible (especially if s/he has to drive to another church).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Angloid: What's odd about this?
Nothing, it's just that I don't know much about these practices.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We do generally ask the altar guild (or whatever communicants are still around) to consume the remaining elements--not during the service (which would make for a long interlude in many cases, and put the full burden on the pastor in smaller churches) but immediately afterward, which is likely to be within ten minutes. Even our small churches often have multiple services, and some share a pastor; we wouldn't want him getting increasingly tipsy as the day wore on. And no, we usually haven't a large altar party--he's lucky to have one lay elder assisting with distribution.
Altar guilds are generally very very careful in how they handle what remains of the elements, ans the washing up--
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
(Darn tablet!) ... notbecause we have a clear theology of what happens regarding the real presence after worship concludes (we don't) but because of common decency and reverence.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Just out of interest, would it have to be a member of the altar guild? I have no position within this Church (except that I often play the guitar during the service).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Just out of interest, would it have to be a member of the altar guild?
Anyone at all in the CofE. For practical reasons it usually seems to be those who are around in the vestry when clearing up after the serrvice. In our place, where most worshippers have probablty never heared of an "altar guild" have have no idea what one is or does, its likely to be the servers if there is a little left, the churchwardens if there is more.
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Ken
Lamor che move il sole e laltre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ken: For practical reasons it usually seems to be those who are around in the vestry when clearing up after the serrvice.
That would be me, putting my guitar back in its cover. Thanks, it's clear to me now.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In our place, where most worshippers have probablty never heared of an "altar guild"
[tangent] I'd never heard of an altar guild until I came on the Ship. I think it's an American thing rather than a particularly anglo-catholic one.[/tangent]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Ummm....the Augsburg Confession article ten seems fairly explicit to me
Yes, it says that the body of Christ is truly present IN THE LORDīS SUPPER, and are distributed TO THOSE WHO EAT THE SUPPER OF THE LORD. Not that the elements possess something special outside of the context of the Supper Of The Lord. Of course the pastors can distribute the elements to people in hospitals or at home when they are sick, but those are still receiving the Supper Of The Lord anyway. If your dog eats the bread that was left after the service, it is not eating the body of christ but just a bread.
Anyway, I donīt know why denominations where it has become fairly common to deny basic articles of faith like the ressurection or the virgin birth would make so much fuss over things like real presence or historical episcopate.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
fletcher christian: Ummm....the Augsburg Confession article ten seems fairly explicit to me
Yes, and I did find it on the IECLB website. However, there seems to be a difference between official doctrine and folk confession here. In my experience when talking with Lutherans in Brazil about this, what I mostly hear is: "Catholics believe in transsubstantiation, we don't."
For example, in this discussion about Ecumenism (Portuguese), the reaction of 01-06-2005 08:26 says: "How can we celebrate a Supper together [with the Catholics], if they believe in transsubstantiation and we believe that the sacrifice of Christ was unique and sufficient?" It's things like this that I hear most often within the IECLB.
Well, I have been a member of both IELB (a sister church of LCMS in Brazil) and IECLB, and in both of them I have seen fairly clear teaching about the real presence in the Lordīs Supper. But Iīm glad the denominations do not teach transsubstantiation, which is not in the Augsburg Confession, neither that the sacrifice of Christ is repeated in every mass, which Luther regarded as blasphemy.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In my experience, IECLB Lutherans believe that God is really present in the Holy Supper, not in a transubstantiated way in the Wine and Bread but in some way He's in there, and most imporantly He's present within the Fellowship shared at Holy Supper.
I hope I expressed myself well. [/QB]
Yes, you are right, and IECLB is a communion of churches that developed mainly trough germanic imigration, therefore, a large part of its membership had Reformed and/or United origins, so they donīt get too much into the details when it comes to the Real Presence, because there used to be some reformed-oriented churches that latter merged with the lutherans in Brazil.
IELB is a different story, since they are in full communion with the LCMS and explicitly avoid any connection with Reformed/Calvinistic traditions. However, my experience in their churches tells me they do not believe in transsubstantiation either, and one of my pastors at IELB once said that after the Lordīs Supper is over, the bread and wine are only bread and wine and nothing else; nonetheless, the elements have to be respected for what they represented. They donīt accept using juice instead of wine either (which is the rule for most IECLB communities), and this is one of the main factors why they canīt keep full communion between the 2 lutheran denominations.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
The high-church objection to the Jerusalem bishopric was largely that it was not a church but a state/political decision. There was (at that time) no general synod, and if convocations had been restored (I'm uncertain about dates) they had not been consulted.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
The high-church objection to the Jerusalem bishopric was largely that it was not a church but a state/political decision. There was (at that time) no general synod, and if convocations had been restored (I'm uncertain about dates) they had not been consulted.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The Lutheran Confessions specified that Mass should be celebrated on a weekly basis which was common in Europe, but it fell out of use in America because there were not enough ministers to consecrate the elements along with the influence of American pietistic movement. However, in the last 20 years there has been a renewal in celebrating Mass on a weekly basis, if not more often.
Lutherans accept the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in, with and under, the bread and wine. As has been pointed out, the host is often reserved and taken to shut ins. However, excess bread is often eaten after communion, or scattered outside for the birds. The wine is not poured down a drain connected to a sewer but is poured out on the ground.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I admit Reformation Sunday is rather unique to Lutherans and some Reformed faith groups, but with Lutherans the point is not to recall the past as much as it is to remind ourselves the church needs continue reforming, focusing on Word and Sacrament. As I have said Lutherans have been returning to the weekly celebration of the Mass which is a good example of how the (Lutheran) church is reforming.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by gorpo:
quote:
Anyway, I donīt know why denominations where it has become fairly common to deny basic articles of faith like the ressurection or the virgin birth would make so much fuss over things like real presence or historical episcopate.
Which denominations are they?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
gorpo: Yes, you are right, and IECLB is a communion of churches that developed mainly trough germanic imigration, therefore, a large part of its membership had Reformed and/or United origins, so they donīt get too much into the details when it comes to the Real Presence, because there used to be some reformed-oriented churches that latter merged with the lutherans in Brazil.
I agree, this is quite possible.
I haven't had more than fleeting contacts with IELB. In my experience, in some small villages in Espírito Santo the rivalry between the two demonations can be rather outspoken, although at a higher level they can be quite amiable.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
The Brazilian example is only one example of how Lutherans worldwide can differ, but the same is quite true of Anglicans worldwide. In the pursuit of a closer relationship, some Lutherans in Canada and the US consented to a fairly significant change in oversight. Sure, it was accompanied with some bumps in the road, but if anything it is certainly a concrete gesture of openness to dialogue. I, for one, await further dialogue and convergence, and intend to work for it.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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