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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs campaigning against Moslem women?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
If it was intended as subliminal stereotyping it would have been of a group of people who fit a popular stereotype.
I don't know about where you live but round here the popular stereotype of a tax inspector is not an attractive young woman with light brown skin and green eyes. More likely a middle-aged white man with a moustache wearing a cheap suit and thick glasses.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I was thinking of a couple of millennia ago.
Gosh, I never would have guessed ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The woman ... is intended to represent a tax inspector. What have the Mongol hordes got to do with this?
Funny. That particular connection was the one element of the OP that made sense to me.
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The woman ... is intended to represent a tax inspector. What have the Mongol hordes got to do with this?
Funny. That particular connection was the one element of the OP that made sense to me.
You move in circles where Ghengiz Khan is chiefly remembered for his stance on VAT?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
eyes looking through a hole ripped in paper.
I'm sorry but i just don't see the stereotyping of a Muslim woman here.
Do they wear paper bags with a hole ripped in the front?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
There is too much of this willingness to be offended.
Am I alone in recognising that church goers are always too easily offended about stuff?
According to my Bible love is not easily provoked. The OP reveals a willingness, an eagerness, to be provoked too readily.
This seems a very odd post. Are you saying that it's un-Christian to be concerned about how particular groups are portrayed in the media?
Not at all, I'm suggesting that it is you that's easily provoked into being offended.
Sometimes being offended on behalf of others is seen as patronising and unnecessary.
Now, being concerned for the people who are genuinely maltreated, then yes of course. We must speak out here but I think the OP makes the author seem faintly ridiculous.
It's like calling a blackboard a 'chalkboard' in case it offends an Afro-Carribean person.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's like calling a blackboard a 'chalkboard' in case it offends an Afro-Carribean person.
I was told the reason for that was because they later realised that it was better from a learning perspective to use green ones (I've seen schools that don't care about chalk dust allergies that still have green chalkboards) and that calling it a blackboard at that point was vaguely stupid, so they got a catch-all term. Much in the same way Policeman became Police Officer (rather than Policeman and Policewoman, a catch-all generic) Blackboard became Chalkboard.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
I thought everyone used Whiteboards (those plastic, wipeable things) these days.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Not at all, I'm suggesting that it is you that's easily provoked into being offended.
As I said before, I'm not offended by these posters. I'm generally interested in how different groups of people are portrayed in the media, particularly the unspoken messages, and I'm concerned about the unspoken messages conveyed by the particular poster we're discussing.
quote:
Sometimes being offended on behalf of others is seen as patronising and unnecessary.
Dismissing somebody else's concerns out of hand is sometimes seen as patronising and unnecessary. Just saying.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'm not altogether sure what you mean by 'unspoken messages'.
If you mean an implication that is intended but not overt then I'm with you.
If however you're 'unspoken message' is merely the inference drawn by people than there is no message at all - it's just someone being over sensitive.
As in this case.
So someone looking through a torn piece of paper looks like a woman looking out from her veil? It doesn't - only in the eyes of someone who is over-sensitive and assumes that those in authority are prejudiced and racist.
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
If it was intended as subliminal stereotyping it would have been of a group of people who fit a popular stereotype.
I've never said here that I thought the poster was INTENDED as subliminal stereotyping.
quote:
I don't know about where you live but round here the popular stereotype of a tax inspector is not an attractive young woman with light brown skin and green eyes. More likely a middle-aged white man with a moustache wearing a cheap suit and thick glasses.
This is a really interesting point. I think that's probably the poster designer's intended message - "You think you know what a tax inspector looks like but you don't, and everyone you meet could be watching you!". On the same lines at the Transport for London posters about plain-clothes ticket inspectors (Sorry, can't find a link to these).
I really do worry about these sorts of messages. In the short term they probably work very well, at least on some people, but in the longer term don't you think they contribute to a sort of general paranoia, inability to trust other people in situations where other people can legitimately be trusted, and a pervasive fear of "stranger danger"?
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm not altogether sure what you mean by 'unspoken messages'.
If you mean an implication that is intended but not overt then I'm with you.
If however you're 'unspoken message' is merely the inference drawn by people than there is no message at all - it's just someone being over sensitive.
By "unspoken messages" I mean the messages that are conveyed by references to other "texts" which belong to the culture. These references may be direct - for example by quoting a well-known saying or catch-phrase. An example would be somebody saying "Doh!" Most members of our culture would immediately recognise the reference to Homer Simpson and this draws on the "culture" of the Simpson series, including the sorts of characters, situations and political and social values of that series. Other references to cultural texts may be indirect, as when a particular image is selected by advertisers to convey an unspoken message about their product. And some messages are subliminal - the person who uses a phrase or an image is not consciously referring to any other text, but nonetheless there are reasons why they chose that particular phrase or image rather than the many possible alternatives.
I'm interested in why HMRC chose this image. To me it seems to draw on cultural stereotyping of Moslem women. Most people posting here disagree. That's interesting, and I'm enjoying reading everyone's post and learning what the image means or doesn't mean to them.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It's - a - hole - ripped - in - brown - paper - not a - space - in - the - black - material - of - a - Muslim - woman's - veil.
The clue is in the fact that few people agree with you.
There is NO subliminal or unspoken message. you are making a mountain out of a molehill, seeing offence where there is none and, quite frankly, making yourself look ridiculous.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
[ 25. November 2012, 13:08: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
OK, I read the whole thread before looking at the picture, to ensure maximum bias.
It looks like someone peeking out from inside a cardboard box. And it's weird because usually kids and pets play in boxes, not adult women.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
I thought everyone used Whiteboards (those plastic, wipeable things) these days.
They do - I haven't seen a black board or chalk in schools for many years. In fact, my school has no boards which can be written on - just screens and data projectors, linked to ipads.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Chill, people.
Doublethink
Purgatory host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
There is NO subliminal or unspoken message. you are making a mountain out of a molehill, seeing offence where there is none .....
Mudfrog, you are just re-stating your opinion. As St Augustine wrote many centuries ago, "Maintaining a proposition loudly and forcibly does not make it true".
I heard you the first time.
If you would like to put forward some reasons for your opinion, as other people posting on this thread have done, I'll be happy to think about them. But as it is all you're doing is repeating "Oh no it isn't". And the pantomime season hasn't started yet.
quote:
...and, quite frankly, making yourself look ridiculous
That doesn't bother me at all.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
If there was supposed to be a subliminal reference to Muslim women it isn't done very well obviously since most people do not see it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Personally I'm with the majority here, nothing intended.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
I'm interested in why HMRC chose this image. To me it seems to draw on cultural stereotyping of Moslem women. Most people posting here disagree. That's interesting, and I'm enjoying reading everyone's post and learning what the image means or doesn't mean to them.
They either bought a royalty-free image or commissioned a photo-shoot. Probably picked a woman as to seem less threatening. If they gave thought to what the woman looked like, it was either to pick a neutral, not obviously any particular ethnicity; or was the next step in the round robin of ethnicity that is their normal practice.
Honestly, you will find few here who look at potential racism with more scrutiny than me. And I do not see what you do.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Honestly, you will find few here who look at potential racism with more scrutiny than me. And I do not see what you do.
Same here. I was brought up in the most racist country on Earth, with my Dad in constant danger of being arrested for not complying with their racist laws. I often watched police with guns stopping and questioning him, twice they took him in for 'questioning'. My racist antenna are very twitchy indeed.
And I see no problem whatever with this ad.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
The ironic thing is, if you are working in anywhere with an equality and diversity policy (eg, the public sector, academia) you are consciously looking for models to feature in your publicity material who are ethnically diverse.
So you may be right that the featured woman was chosen because she was a bit beige rather than, say, blond and blue eyed. But the intention was probably to convey the message that you can be a tax inspector without having to be male and Northern European.
Epic fail in your case, but nonetheless I bet Threadneedle Street to a positively-presented Asian orange that that is the case.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Chamois - if you want your argument to have a wider audience, you could write an article for The Guardian on this subject. Recent 'Comment is Free' subjects include the racism of the 'Compare the Meerkat' adverts and the inappropriateness (the authoress doesn't bring herself to use the r-word) of Psy's Gangnam Style. I think 800 words on the racism of brown paper would fit right in.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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