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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Double-speak at WalMart
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Mountain out of a molehill. A media-created non-issue.
People are happy to have the overtime. Thanksgiving night is no big deal. Plenty of people work on Thanksgiving.
In my experience, there are few if any people who are happy to be working on Thanksgiving. The reality at most larger retailers in the U.S. is that people are typically scheduled for 20-30 hours a week at the employer's convenience and are fired if they don't work the hours for which they are scheduled.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Absolutely. And the best way to ensure a steady supply of poor people is to hire lots of them and keep them poor.
But all the smug self-satisfaction on this thread has glossed over AltWally's excellent point about how everything that is said about WalMart could be said about Apple. But, somehow, it seldom is. I imagine that this thread would be a lot more interesting if that fact were examined with an open mind.
--Tom Clune
No. AltWally posted a number of reasons why apple are less than pristine as a corporation. But to then extend that to say "Everything that is said about WalMart could be said about Apple" is wrong. Never mind the different order of magnitude of labour issues, there's a vast difference in what they displace.
When an Apple store arrives in town they threaten ... the other high end computer shops in town. At worst it's a net displacement of traffic and jobs.
When a WalMart arrives in town they threaten ... the butcher, the baker, the guy who runs the corner shop, the other guy who runs the corner shop, the guy who runs the drug store, the florist, and everyone depending on them. They don't employ as many people as they displace - and it's estimated that opening a WalMart will cost one community $13 million in economic output and a further $14 million in income over a twenty year period. It's known that WalMart kill three jobs for every two they create, and they rely on the government to top up their workers wages to a livable amount while reducing local retail wages by 5%.
You can say that Apple as a corporation does a lot of bad things - and it does. But saying that "everything that is said about WalMart could be said about Apple" is simply a risible statement.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But mainly I just don't think that it is a real issue. Certainly there is anger about large corporate chains like WalMart,and they do have an impact on workers and communities that is not always positive. That is the real issue.
Shopping on Thanksgiving evening, though, is just an angle for the media to talk about the Christmas shopping that begins in earnest the moment the last bit of Thanksgiving pumpkin pie is consumed.
It seems to me that the episode is an example of the gradual erosion of weekends and holidays as leisure time, and is notable for that reason. It is the ability of large retailers to insist that their employees work at these times that makes this possible.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
When a WalMart arrives in town they threaten ... the butcher, the baker, the guy who runs the corner shop, the other guy who runs the corner shop, the guy who runs the drug store, the florist, and everyone depending on them. They don't employ as many people as they displace [...]
During the era where Walmart was displacing small main-street retailers, the problem was larger than this. Walmart does not advertise in local media outlets, and so there has been a downstream effect on local newspapers and radio stations, who ultimately lose their advertising revenue.
That era is past us, at least in most of the U.S., and so now we have the spectacle of Walmart taking customers away from Best Buy, Cub Foods, Walgreens, Kmart, Costco, etc., all corporate retail giants of various stripe.
But the real problem at hand is one of appropriate treatment of workers among all these retailers. Walmart has introduced distribution chain efficiencies and merchandising approaches that are laudable, that create real value. But they treat the majority of their employees poorly, and rely on having a pool of casual workers who are willing to accept part-time work at substandard wages under poor working conditions.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Boycott, anyone?
The problem is the lack of reasonable alternatives in many areas. In many communities, Walmart is the only discount clothing store, so the alternative is either higher-priced clothing stores, or travel for a considerable distance to the nearest Target or Kmart.
Big-box retailing has reached the point where the only meaningful competition to big-box retailers is other big-box retailers, and the internet.
And in reality, most of the high-volume everyday commerce goods can't be sold over the internet at prices that are at all competitive with big-box stores.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I actually think this may just be the last gasp of a dying industry... brick and mortar stores are becoming less and less important in an increasingly online world.
The online world does well with specialty items that move too slowly to work well for local retailers, like books. These pose a problem for brick and mortar stores because the goods turn over too slowly.
The online world also does well with nonperishable, nonhazardous, unregulated, high-value items like tools and electronics. These pose two problems for brick and mortar stores: one of shrinkage (mainly due to employee theft), and one of the carrying cost for inventory. Warehouse operations for online retailers don't have nearly the problem with theft that stores do, and can get by with thinner inventory since they are able to serve an entire nation or region from all their stock points.
But the online world doesn't do well with bulky, low-value, high-volume merchandise, because the handling costs are greater. Nobody is ever going to be able to sell bottled water, toilet paper, or pillows cheaper online than Walmart can in their stores. The cost of picking, packing, and shipping the order is too great compared to the value of the goods sold.
And the online world doesn't do well with perishable products. In my part of the world we are served by two online grocery stores, but they are expensive, with a typical total bill running around 15%-20% higher than the same items from a Walmart supercenter.
Finally, most people won't buy clothes on line if there is a brick and mortar alternative. This may change but it's going to take years if not decades -- there has to be strong branding, consistent sizing, and much better internet storefront software than anything that's out there today.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The Wal-Mart "regular" no doubt sees him/herself as a smart consumer -- one-stop shopping, pennies off competitors' pricing, etc. S/he believes s/he saves times and money.
But the Wal-Mart shopper may also be the Wal-Mart employee, paying way too much for health insurance (if s/he has any at all), working off the clock, etc. etc.
No, they're different.
There are two distinct categories of typical Wal-Mart employees. A few are people who have some other primary means of support (a working spouse, a pension, social security) but who are seeking out part-time employment for additional income. Most are people who are in a transitional point in their life where they lack the education or work history to get better employment: people rejoining the workforce after a divorce, young people who have recently discontinued school without obtaining any marketable skills, people recently fired or laid off from better jobs, people who have moved to an area where they have no connections.
The typical Wal-mart shopper is a lower middle class person who works (or whose spouse works) in full-time hourly employment. Government employees, building trades, low-level workers in health care, factory workers, farm workers, etc. Few work in retail.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
- That its ability to keep prices down comes from advantages it has reaped through computerization and supply chain management, not through suppression of wages. In terms of retail wages, it is middle of the pack.
One of the things to keep in mind when discussing Walmart is that they are very, very good at what they do. They were the first major soft-goods (clothing) retailer to build their own nationwide distribution system, with their own warehouses and trucks. While they are (rightly) vilified for the extreme demands they make on suppliers, they have been successful in getting more of their goods packed in machinable containers, and delivered on a just-in-time basis, to reduce the distribution costs.
I think it's appropriate to applaud Walmart's innovation and management in these areas while still being critical of its labor policies and sourcing practices.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Wal-Mart keeps prices low also by demanding that its suppliers give them rock-bottom prices, and they have the ability to make that demand because they are so big. This suppresses the wages of the folks who work for Wal-Mart suppliers, who no doubt shop at Wal-Mart.
Only a few of the goods sold at Walmart are manufactured in the United States. Most come from China and other low-wage countries where Walmart does not have stores.
quote:
The wealth of the members of the Walton family who own stock in Wal-Mart is roughly equal to the wealth of the economic bottom half of ALL Americans. I think they can afford to let their workers and their suppliers' workers have more money.
I see this as more of an industry-wide problem. While there are big-box retailers where the abuses are not as bad (Costco, for example, has been mentioned), substantially all big-box retailers rely on extensive use of part-time employees who are paid low wages.
quote:
AltWally cites the fact that Wal-Mart has more than a million workers as if it were a good thing, but it's not. It means that Wal-Mart has way too much clout in the market. I'd be a lot more impressed about them having a million-plus workers if those were good middle-class jobs.
I'd be happy if they offered full-time work with benefits to those employees who want it and paid appropriate shift differentials to people who are required to work nights, weekends, and holidays. The way things are now, they're externalizing their costs, and as a society we shouldn't tolerate that.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
One could probably make the same sort of value judgments about a company like Apple. For instance
- It is the most profitable company in the world.
- It does not pay it's retail workers significantly more than Wal-Mart, and the amount of income per retail store employee is staggering.
- It has sought to avoid California state taxes.
- It has sent all its manufacturing overseas.
- It insures its retail employees, but seems to favor the very young and has a high turnover rate (i.e. its workers are relatively cheap to insure).
- I gather it applies considerable pressure to its suppliers to suppress high prices.
- It probably employs a fraction of the workers Wal-Mart does in the U.S.
Apple is not primarily a retailer. It is primarily an electronics company. While there are many things not to like about Apple, most of their employees are not low-wage workers. Apple stores have not displaced existing retail jobs to any appreciable degree. And, some of its recent products have been manufactured in the United States.
This thread is not a general-purpose Walmart bashing thread. It is specifically about the poor treatment of retail workers, and in particular the insistence that they work crazy hours over the Thanksgiving holiday, for what legitimate purpose no one can discern.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Do they compel workers to work off the clock? What I do understand is they have been criticized for limiting hours for some workers and maintaining a system of scheduling that is not fixed and fluctuates based on shopping demands.
Walmart has settled class-action lawsuits alleging that they require employees to work off the clock in several states. However, they appear to have changed their practices as there have been no well-substantiated allegations of timekeeping problems in the last few years.
quote:
I have trouble believing that Wal-Mart, or any company, will ever be able to create 1 million good "middle class" jobs for an unskilled workforce.
Probably not. On the other hand, I think that even unskilled laborers should be treated better than Walmart treats its employees.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Would you please consider using the UBB practice thread to learn how to quote multiple different posters in one post.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
This just in or, at least, I've just come across it.
Walmart:
quote:
Wal-Mart has long been the Holy Grail for labor organizers. The nation’s largest retailer, it is notorious for its low wages, lack of benefits, abusive labor practices, and for leaving its workers dependent on public assistance while making the Walton family rich beyond imagination. And it has been nearly impossible to organize.
farther down:
quote:
But the combination of longtime workers feeling betrayed by the company, newer workers who never felt that loyalty to begin with, and the fact that for so many years the company paid lip service to Christian values in lieu of fair wages, is leaving Wal-Mart vulnerable to labor uprisings.
which basically backs up my points explained upthread
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
eta: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/costcoceo.asp
Anyuta's source suggests that I may be right in concluding that AltWally is confusing Costco with WalMart.
Their employees, I suspect, don't make that mistake.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I somehow didn't really realize ( or rather recognise the impact) that there is actually a law which requires a corporation to maximize shareholder value, even if that comes at the expense of workers, or philanthropy. A company like Costco is actually at some legal risk for bee
Ing generous to its workers. Isn't that sad? Could this be the real root of much evil? "Going public" may be the point at which a company looses its soul... Even though that is the point at which it becomes a "person"
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I somehow didn't really realize ( or rather recognise the impact) that there is actually a law which requires a corporation to maximize shareholder value, even if that comes at the expense of workers, or philanthropy. A company like Costco is actually at some legal risk for being generous to its workers.
That is, of course, complete BS. This law doesn't prevent corporations from giving top management hundreds of millions of dollars in pay, so how can it possibly be against the law to give their workers a few thousand dollars in pay? This is what management uses as an excuse to squeeze the labor force, not a real impediment to anything. If that law results in managers getting thrown in jail for excessive pay, I'll believe it is something real. Fat chance.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Not to take the spotlight off Walmart, but the latest news re the Hostess Brands bankruptcy is illustrative, I think.
$1.8 million for executive bonuses, but not one penny for the workers who were asking for nothing more than a fair wage.
And the court said OK!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Corporate version of cannon fodder.
It occurs to me to wonder how much of this phenomenon boils down to there being too many people -- too many to feed and water adequately, too many to employ in any meaningful way, too many to house or clothe adequatey, etc.
I know, I know -- the Party Line is all about inadequate distribution, not inadequate resources.
But I don't see the Waltons loosening their death-grip on their purses any time soon for the sake of their martyred workers, do you?
[ 30. November 2012, 17:34: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
yes, but courts seem to respond very differently when it's a question of executive pay vs. a question of worker pay/benefits.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
eta: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/costcoceo.asp
Anyuta's source suggests that I may be right in concluding that AltWally is confusing Costco with WalMart.
Their employees, I suspect, don't make that mistake.
cliffdweller, I believe that the point in question was one made by the the poster with "moron" as their moniker. I'm sure Costco and Wal-Mart's employees know the difference between the two. One of the primary differences is Costco serves a much higher income bracket demographic, which probably drives many of the differences between the two.
Bartolomeo
quote:
Apple is not primarily a retailer. It is primarily an electronics company. While there are many things not to like about Apple, most of their employees are not low-wage workers. Apple stores have not displaced existing retail jobs to any appreciable degree. And, some of its recent products have been manufactured in the United States.
I think that is a fairly rosy depiction. It’s a consumer electronics company, and it tightly controls its own retail operations and associated markets like the app store. It is the most profitable company at a time when there is incredible and growing economic disparity. Is that a coincidence? Does it foster the growth of small business and does it drive jobs growth, or is it creating wealth for a technical elite that will increasingly become separated from those at the bottom (the people Wal-Mart employs and caters to)? Their past and present CEO’s have cited the hindrances of manufacturing in the U.S. saying the skills and flexibility don’t exist here, and of course labor costs more here. Is that okay? Should apple re-invest its profits and training, or is it okay for those jobs and skills to just drain out of the U.S.? Is it disquieting that that iphone or ipad is born on the backs of Chinese workers producing those goods in conditions we would not accept? Does Apple additionally skirt paying in to the U.S. treasury by not just minimizing employment here but by seeking out loopholes that allow it to push more of its profits off-shore?
I see no morality at play in what Apple or Wal-Mart are doing, nor would I expect any. I simply find the selective outrage hard to understand. Just as I found it mystifying to understand the images of Occupy protesters tapping away on their Apple devices. I give Apple credit for being able to elicit religious feelings in its customers and employees that seem to blind everyone to this.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I simply find the selective outrage hard to understand. Just as I found it mystifying to understand the images of Occupy protesters tapping away on their Apple devices. I give Apple credit for being able to elicit religious feelings in its customers and employees that seem to blind everyone to this.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "selective." Wal-Mart is the world's largest retailer. It attracts outrage because, as the largest, it has single-handedly the most profound impact on suppliers, employees, labor practices, and industry standards among competitors world-wide.
I'm not acquainted with the "religious feelings" of Apple users, but Wal-Mart has in fact consciously and deliberately used the founding family's ties to religion -- Christianity -- as an assumptive underpinning to its cynical exploitation of workers.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm not acquainted with the "religious feelings" of Apple users...
Perhaps you could go to an Apple store and ask one of their evangelists about that...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
eta: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/costcoceo.asp
Anyuta's source suggests that I may be right in concluding that AltWally is confusing Costco with WalMart.
Their employees, I suspect, don't make that mistake.
cliffdweller, I believe that the point in question was one made by the the poster with "moron" as their moniker. I'm sure Costco and Wal-Mart's employees know the difference between the two. One of the primary differences is Costco serves a much higher income bracket demographic, which probably drives many of the differences between the two.
oops... yes, sorry for the misdirection.
But I'm not sure the difference in clientele is all that different. I certainly would not guess Costco serves a "much higher" income bracket, other than possibly the business portion of their sales. However, Anyuta's link compares Costco with Sam's Club (also owned by the Waltons), which would be an even better comparison, since they have nearly identical business models (membership warehouse clubs). And yet, according to the source, we're still seeing significant differences in the compensation of Sam's Club v. Costco employees.
There's no holy grail of perfect corporate responsibility, of course. Costco and Apple and every other corporate entity is going to have to walk through some ethical minefields as they struggle to meet the competing interests of shareholders, employees, and customers. Still, IMHO, Costco's success in a very comparable business model suggests that Walmart doesn't *have* to treat their employees as shitty as they do to keep prices low.
[ 01. December 2012, 14:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I simply find the selective outrage hard to understand.
What I don't understand is why you think the outrage is directed solely at Wal-Mart. Or didn't you hear about the McDonald's workers striking?
quote:
Just as I found it mystifying to understand the images of Occupy protesters tapping away on their Apple devices.
Show me a laptop, tablet or smartphone that's not produced by exploited laborers and I'll buy it. Apple has taken more heat than other manufacturers precisely because so many people have a ridiculous devotion to its products, but all consumer electronics companies do the same things. Socially responsible investors are pushing for change across the industry, not just at Apple.
Believe me, there's plenty of outrage to go around.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
The whole "what about Apple..." etc. argument strikes me as faulty.
It comes down to the way we want to live in a fallen world. Does that fact that we are fallen, fallible creatures prone to sin mean that we just throw up our hands and go with that-- to "sin and sin boldly" as Luther mysteriously said? Or do we still strive for holiness, however imperfectly, grateful for God's grace but still striving toward Christ-likeness? As others have said, if we're not "sinless", should we not at least "sin less"?
Same is true with ethical investing/ consumption. Every company is made up of sinners, so every investment, every bit of consumption, is going to be compromised-- our $$ will in some way support someone's sin somewhere. But, if we cannot invest "sinlessly", can we not at least "sin less"? We won't find an ethically pure investment, but we can at least avoid the most egregious ones-- and thereby hopefully encourage more responsible corporate behavior, if only for the bottom line.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Do you think Wal-Mart is particularly unique in their approach to health care coverage? Are they average or not so average in terms of the benefits they offer full time employees? Are they the worst?
It's been a while since I paid much attention but they had evolved to being one of the better retailers in this regard: even part-time 'associates' could purchase health care benefits.
I'd be interested if anyone can point to any other company which provides as much opportunity to advance as Walmart does.
A truly amazing company which unfortunately doesn't seem to bring out the best from its critics. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Have you got a source-- even an outdated one-- for this?
I suspect you're confusing WalMart with Costco.
I suspect you're confusing my willingness to google for you with Cheechus or whatever its name is ![[Smile]](smile.gif) but here you are. And health benefits have been available to part-timers for YEARS.
quote:
All Wal-Mart associates (full and part time) can become eligible for insurance benefits.
I am currently in Santiago visiting my wife who is here on WMT business. She, like me, started with the company as hourly employees. I left in 2003 after 15 years and remain grateful for many things I gained from my employment there. I even occasionally give some semi-serious thought to returning as, during my absence, I've picked up a trick or two which would allow me to better manipulate my employment there...
The opportunity, for those willing to make the sacrifices, remains IMO unparalleled and it's just the teensiest bit galling to listen to ignorant critics wail about how bad the company is.
If it sucks so much why don't you do what Sam did: pay some dues in the retail industry then start your own company and compete in the market until your vision of what you want to achieve is accomplished?
Perdón?
You either can't or won't?
All righty then: you know what to do next (Ruth gave a hint earlier. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
And Chile is way cool: down here The Great Satan Of Retail is known as Lider.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
... for those willing to make the sacrifices ...
What kind of sacrifices ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[
Have you got a source-- even an outdated one-- for this?
I suspect you're confusing WalMart with Costco.
I suspect you're confusing my willingness to google for you with Cheechus or whatever its name is but here you are. And health benefits have been available to part-timers for YEARS.
[/QUOTE]
Wow. Apparently my innocent question got a burr under your saddle.
A google search, as we have already seen, brings up quite a bunch of hits, the vast majority of which are saying something quite contrary to your claim. Given that we had already seen those links-- and since you were the one making the claim-- it seemed reasonable to ask you what your source was (not knowing, of course, your personal connection). Thank you for providing that, however grudgingly.
However, while your link does confirm that health care is available to part-timers, it does not address the actual charge that is under dispute-- which is that the portion of the insurance premium covered by WalMart is so low that most employees cannot afford it. Some documentaries have claimed that Walmart employees are, in fact, coached to apply for Medicaid instead.
I followed the "benefits" link on your link, and could find a very brief overview of what is covered in their plan (& that it is available to both full and part-timeers), but nothing at all regarding how much of the premium is covered by WalMart and how much is paid by the employee. Since we now see you are an insider, perhaps you would oblige us by answering that-- especially since that was the specific claim under debate here? Or do you expect us to ask "Cheesus"?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
The opportunity, for those willing to make the sacrifices, remains IMO unparalleled and it's just the teensiest bit galling to listen to ignorant critics wail about how bad the company is.
If it sucks so much why don't you do what Sam did: pay some dues in the retail industry then start your own company and compete in the market until your vision of what you want to achieve is accomplished?
Oh, great idea! While we're at it, why doesn't everyone who is on welfare just do what JK Rowling did and write a couple of best-selling novels? Problem solved.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I stand corrected-- it is the deductible/out of pocket expenses ($4400 annually), not that premium, that are the issue at WalMart-- and apparently the reason 54% of their employees are not covered by the plan.
fact sheet on WalMart health insurance coverage
Again, not something indicated on Walmart's "benefits" webpage.
There, m, turns out I can google.
[ 03. December 2012, 02:53: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
sorry-- got the stat backwards. According to the link, WalMart covers only 54% of employees.
The link also suggests that the annual out-of-pocket expenses (which can go up to $10K) will cost the average employee between 25% to 50% of their pay.
As I said before, while WalMart may (or may not, according to m) be the most egregious in this regard, the real issue is the peculiar coupling of health care and employment in the US. The best solution would not be so much for WalMart to clean up their act, but for Congress to do so and give us real health care reform-- the single payer kind that decouples employment & health care. It will be better for employers. And it sure as heck will be better for laborers. The issue of whether or not WalMart (or anyone else) is a shitty employer or not is a lot less fraught if your health and that of your family is not on the line.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Would you please consider using the UBB practice thread to learn how to quote multiple different posters in one post.
Would you please consider ending questions with a question mark? I know how to quote multiple different posters and choose not to in those situations where the replies are lengthy and not closely related.
I will look forward to your replies regarding the substance of the topic at hand.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Bartolomeo
quote:
Apple is not primarily a retailer. It is primarily an electronics company. While there are many things not to like about Apple, most of their employees are not low-wage workers. Apple stores have not displaced existing retail jobs to any appreciable degree. And, some of its recent products have been manufactured in the United States.
I think that is a fairly rosy depiction. It’s a consumer electronics company, and it tightly controls its own retail operations and associated markets like the app store. It is the most profitable company at a time when there is incredible and growing economic disparity. Is that a coincidence? Does it foster the growth of small business and does it drive jobs growth, or is it creating wealth for a technical elite that will increasingly become separated from those at the bottom (the people Wal-Mart employs and caters to)? Their past and present CEO’s have cited the hindrances of manufacturing in the U.S. saying the skills and flexibility don’t exist here, and of course labor costs more here. Is that okay?
I think the questions regarding Apple's use of offshore manufacturing contractors are valid ones. In any but the broadest terms they are separate from the questions regarding Walmart's treatment of retail employees.
quote:
I see no morality at play in what Apple or Wal-Mart are doing, nor would I expect any. I simply find the selective outrage hard to understand.
It's clear to me and to many that the outcome of the growth and dominance of Walmart and other big-box retailers has had a negative effect on labor in many communities across the United States. The regulatory and economic environment has allowed Walmart (and other stores) to provide low wages and poor working conditions.
It is not clear to me that the growth of Apple has created a similar effect.
[ 04. December 2012, 17:14: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Would you please consider using the UBB practice thread to learn how to quote multiple different posters in one post.
Would you please consider ending questions with a question mark? I know how to quote multiple different posters and choose not to in those situations where the replies are lengthy and not closely related
It is an absolute pain in the arse to read, particularly when trying to scan through to find duplicate posts.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The problem is the lack of reasonable alternatives in many areas. In many communities, Walmart is the only discount clothing store, so the alternative is either higher-priced clothing stores,
And in many of those communities, Walmart is responsible for this being the case.
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Not to take the spotlight off Walmart, but the latest news re the Hostess Brands bankruptcy is illustrative, I think.
$1.8 million for executive bonuses, but not one penny for the workers who were asking for nothing more than a fair wage.
And the court said OK!
On one hand, the 1.8 million is cheaper than paying the workers. On the other, it is still a dick move.
Porridge, you are not familiar with the devotion of the Apple cult? To illustrate: insult a company/family of products to its users.
If you insult Apple to an Apple user, you start a fight. If you insult Microsoft to a Microsoft user, you start a conversation.*
Another hint; No one has images of Bill Gates on their walls, desktops, etc.
(And insult Linux or Android to one of their users and prepare to spend the next 2.5 hours listening to why their system is better, why you should switch, how you can switch, how they will help you switch,.....)
*full disclosure, I stole the skeleton of that comparison.
[ 05. December 2012, 17:14: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The problem is the lack of reasonable alternatives in many areas. In many communities, Walmart is the only discount clothing store, so the alternative is either higher-priced clothing stores,
And in many of those communities, Walmart is responsible for this being the case.
What an odd notion! Did Walmart force people to go to their store instead of the higher-priced alternative that they replaced? If people would rather shop at Walmart, why isn't that a valid choice? Because you would have chosen something else?
As far as the working conditions go, do you really imagine that mom-and-pop dry goods stores pay top wages and load their employees down with benefits? In my small town, these kinds of stores often pay their employees off the books, so the employee doesn't even have their social security paid or qualify for unemployment if the job goes away.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The problem is the lack of reasonable alternatives in many areas. In many communities, Walmart is the only discount clothing store, so the alternative is either higher-priced clothing stores,
And in many of those communities, Walmart is responsible for this being the case.
What an odd notion! Did Walmart force people to go to their store instead of the higher-priced alternative that they replaced? If people would rather shop at Walmart, why isn't that a valid choice? Because you would have chosen something else?
While true, that doesn't address the problem that people lack any choice today.
quote:
As far as the working conditions go, do you really imagine that mom-and-pop dry goods stores pay top wages and load their employees down with benefits? In my small town, these kinds of stores often pay their employees off the books, so the employee doesn't even have their social security paid or qualify for unemployment if the job goes away.
Walmart has displaced a wide variety of retail establishments, whose labor relations were variable. Many of the mid-size department stores and grocery stores they have displaced were at least partially unionized. Whether union shops or not, most had a labor model based mostly on full-time career workers augmented with part-time help on evenings and weekends.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
While true, that doesn't address the problem that people lack any choice today.
We have lots of choices here and the mom and pop operations were gone long before Walmart showed up.
Just pulling up the Quicken and looking through our groceries we buy from:
Aldi Foods
Amazing Savings
Bi-Lo
Food Lion
Fresh Market
Gtreenlife
Ingles
Sav-Mor
Harris Teeter
Grocery Outlet
Earth Fare
French Broad Food Co-op
WNC Farmers Market
and a few small ones
quote:
Walmart has displaced a wide variety of retail establishments, whose labor relations were variable. Many of the mid-size department stores and grocery stores they have displaced were at least partially unionized.
Walmart hasn't really displaced much around here except for, maybe, KMart.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
I forgot to include Walmart in that list. We sometimes buy certain items from them (certainly not meat or vegetables) and they appear to have the best deal on generic drugs.
It appears we never buy clothes from Walmart, though. Neither of us weigh over three hundred pounds and neither of us wear much spandex.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
What an odd notion! Did Walmart force people to go to their store instead of the higher-priced alternative that they replaced? If people would rather shop at Walmart, why isn't that a valid choice? Because you would have chosen something else?
ISTM, it was not always higher prices, but convenience. I might be wrong, but I remember hearing Walmart killed the competition in some markets only to close their own doors after.
I would lay odds most of the goods bought at Walmart are unnecessary luxuries. So, for a cheaper telly, and extra DVD player; the local grocer, mercantile, sports shop, cycling shop, etc. die. Is it entirely Walmart's responsibility? no.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
... for those willing to make the sacrifices ...
What kind of sacrifices ?
Thinking about this question for quite some time... you'll work hard - as in many more hours than most jobs - which is IMNSHO the primary reason WMT is extraordinarily successful.
And you'll need to do the WMT 'cheer'. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) It occurs to me if I had a dollar for every time I did it I could have almost certainly paid for my current vacation.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
And what happens to work life balance ? And what does that do to your health ? Do you think there is any merit to the idea of bread and roses ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
... for those willing to make the sacrifices ...
What kind of sacrifices ?
Thinking about this question for quite some time... you'll work hard - as in many more hours than most jobs - which is IMNSHO the primary reason WMT is extraordinarily successful.
sigh. That's the world we all want to live in. The world where people who "work harder" are successful, and rewarded financially,. It's the world that's promised in the "American Dream".
I don't know if it was ever true, but it's certainly not true now. It may have been a factor in Walmart's success at one point in the narrative, but it's certainly not the driving factor now.
And if you think that the people at the bottom of the economic ladder aren't working as hard as the 1% these days, you're living in lala land-- by which I don't mean L.A. Try spending a week scrubbing floors-- or toilets-- and see if you still feel that way.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Try spending a week scrubbing floors-- or toilets-- and see if you still feel that way.
A week is a bit much but maybe you could lessen your standard?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Try spending a week scrubbing floors-- or toilets-- and see if you still feel that way.
A week is a bit much but maybe you could lessen your standard?
How many toilets are in a walmart anyway?
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
sigh. That's the world we all want to live in. The world where people who "work harder" are successful, and rewarded financially,. It's the world that's promised in the "American Dream".
I don't know if it was ever true, but it's certainly not true now.
It's never been a guaranteed tradeoff. Plenty of people that work hard never 'make it big.' But almost no-one that doesn't work really hard can bust out of the middle/lower class. I know a good number of 'successful' people, and none of them have a satisfactory 'work/life' balance. They're all workaholics.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I don't know if it was ever true, but it's certainly not true now.
It's never been a guaranteed tradeoff. Plenty of people that work hard never 'make it big.' But almost no-one that doesn't work really hard can bust out of the middle/lower class. I know a good number of 'successful' people, and none of them have a satisfactory 'work/life' balance. They're all workaholics. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Probably true. But of course, the majority of the wealthy never had to "break out" of the middle/lower class-- they were born into wealth. The rest got where they are through a combination of luck, talent, inspiration, and yes, hard work.
But the point was that you can't replicate that formula. It's lovely that JK Rowling was able to come out of poverty through the combination of all of the above, but not every welfare mom is going to be able to write a series of best-sellers. It's wonderful when it happens, but it can't be taken as a universal life strategy. Hard work can and should be a part of that universal life strategy but we also need to provide some other tools as well to help leverage that hard work into viable profitable employment.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Working moderately ought to be enough to earn a basic level of security. Busting your ass should be for people who want more than that. That some people have to make sacrifices just to keep their heads above water while others make millions off those folks' labor is just flat-out wrong.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Working moderately ought to be enough to earn a basic level of security.
IME it is: ask me sometime how I came to driving a truck.
I am not making this up.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hmmm, IIRC, was there not a scandal about American soldiers being on welfare as that was the only way to make ends meet? Perhaps they don't work hard enough.
Level of effort =/= level of pay, or even adequacy of pay, anywhere.
The living Waltons work harder than the people who maintain their stores? I doubt it. They are living off the effort of someone else, a sort of familial welfare. Yet they do not see fit to pay a decent bit towards healthcare for those workers who allow them luxury.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The problem is the lack of reasonable alternatives in many areas. In many communities, Walmart is the only discount clothing store, so the alternative is either higher-priced clothing stores,
And in many of those communities, Walmart is responsible for this being the case.
What an odd notion! Did Walmart force people to go to their store instead of the higher-priced alternative that they replaced? If people would rather shop at Walmart, why isn't that a valid choice? Because you would have chosen something else?
The obvious advantage big box stores have over local retailers is that they can drop prices in a regional market to undercut the local competition until those other stores have no choice other than to close, merge or relocate. Once they are gone, the big box store can then raise prices and use that extra money to subsidize discounting in stores in other markets where there is local competition until they are snuffed out, and so on and so on. It's a like a cancer that destroys healthy communities.
At one point in our past, it fell onto government to break up businesses that had grown so big that they became anti-competitive or monopolistic forces, but those days seem to be long past.
[ 12. December 2012, 16:23: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Once they are gone, the big box store can then raise prices and use that extra money to subsidize discounting in stores in other markets where there is local competition until they are snuffed out, and so on and so on. It's a like a cancer that destroys healthy communities.
You of course know that your words are complete and utter bullshit concerning WMT whose wildly successful business model is to maintain low prices for the consumer.
Next.
Dammit I'm becoming mt.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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