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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hearing is fragile: should churches try to protect hearing?
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This is a thought I've been pondering since I was part of the live audience at The Forum on listening ten days ago. It was brought back to mind as a thread by my poor sore ringing ears this morning after attending a happy clappy service yesterday.
During The Forum programme, Professor David McAlpine was talking about hearing, how it worked, how fragile it is as a sense, and how important it is to us socially. He said we are sitting on a time bomb. Evolutionarily it hasn't mattered as by the time our hearing starts failing in our 40s and 50s we've reproduced and weren't expect to live that long. Nowadays with longer life expectancies it is becoming a huge issue because people are living for 50 years with impaired hearing. That situation is not going to improve with the way we abuse our hearing - concerts, night clubs, headphones ...
Going back to the happy clappy service, until three or four years ago, I could (I know it's unusual) hear social calls of bats. I did a lot of bat surveying. I've since had my hearing damaged by church sound systems. I can tell from my newly acquired tinnitus, how it is triggered by services and how it reduces again if I avoid those triggers.
Should churches be aware of the damage they may be doing to their congregations' ears? With this in mind, is it a good model for churches to produce sounds as would be found in a night club or concert for a Sunday service?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Should churches be aware of the damage they may be doing to their congregations' ears? With this in mind, is it a good model for churches to produce sounds as would be found in a night club or concert for a Sunday service?
Yes. I'd also say, if you go into a church and see the drum kit enclosed in a perspex box, go straight out again. Not only will it be bad for your hearing. It's an infallible indicator that here lives a drummer without no sense of music.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
Blackbeard spent much of professional career concerned with the effect noise on human hearing. Noise from amplified music was a known risk about 20 or 30 years ago and, frankly, AFAICS not a lot has changed since then. We know there's a risk but very little seems to have been done about it. Noise in the workplace is subject to legislation, but that's only for people at work.
I'm not up to speed with the latest on this ... some of the larger events probably try to limit noise exposure, and of course outdoor events have to be careful about noise nuisance, but I'm not aware that organisers of events in smaller clubs and churches actually give the matter much thought.
I'm completely in agreement that the churches should try to protect hearing, but I suspect that very few really want to recognise the problem. Yes, of course they should do something about it, but few will have much knowledge of the topic, and there's a real problem in that the audience/congregation WANT noise and the musicians WANT to make it. I rather suspect that any suggestion that the volume might be turned down a bit will meet a very unenthusiastic reception, maybe with a denial that there is actually a problem.
There is a huge body of data on the relation between noise and hearing loss and the basics are well established. But there is also quite a lot of individual variation, so some individuals will be little affected while others will be much more affected; also there are sources of hearing loss other than noise. This makes it quite difficult to say with any confidence that X's hearing loss is due to noise, rather than some other cause, especially since Y might be unaffected. So a civil action could be difficult. Also, of course, if an individuals knows there is a risk but chooses to participate anyway, there is probably no grounds for civil action. On the other hand of course, we are looking at young - perhaps very young - people to whom there is a duty of care, and volunteer helpers (to whom there might also be a duty of care) who feel that they have little choice and must participate. And of course clergy who are technically employed are therefore in principle covered by existing legislation.
It's now a long time since I had any direct interest in any of this, and I don't know the current state of play regards the law. Perhaps someone can tell me. I do know that workplace noise legislation was to an extent driven by civil actions.
Meanwhile I have a feeling that the proverbial is about to hit the fan. Do church insurance policies cover civil actions?
And for anyone finding themselves at such services - I advise one of two courses of action -
use hearing protection (foam ear plugs are good, make sure they fit well into the ear) - or else walk out. And if someone says there isn't a problem - they are not well informed, I leave it at that for the moment.
And as a very rough rule of thumb - if your ears are ringing, or your hearing is a bit dulled, afterwards - that is definitely a sign that all is not well. Do this too often and the damage is permanent.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
No longer being able to hear bat calls isn't necessarily a sign of damage, it is simply a matter of age. The top range of your hearing naturally degrades over time. Usually only children and young adults can hear bats.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
No, but tinnitus is definitely a sign of damage.
And no, I have no intention of suing anyone, but I have no plans to put myself into situations that aggravate the damage already done.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My husband plays drums in a rock band. Are his ears damaged? Yes, for sure.
Will he give up drumming? Never!
(I'll be investing in a light for doorbell and telephone then ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
It's a problem everywhere, not just church. The habit of talking while watching tv has become ubiquitous so everything has to be louder just to get people's attention.
I just carry earplugs in my handbag at all times, since apparently no one else cares about their hearing.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A friend told me (couple decades ago) she has hearing loss from playing music loud, but she likes it loud and she's not going to quit turning the stereo all the way up so she can feel the vibrations in the floor and furniture and her bones. "That's how I like it!" BTW, she's a health care professional.
A few years ago I walked into a Christian conference, was assaulted by the loudness of the band, wandered around the room looking for a seat with my hands over my ears. People smiled at me, some pointed to their ears, one finally showed me -- ear plugs. Another told me I could buy them at the hotel desk. A room full of people who need ear plugs to be in the same room as the band? But I'll bet the babies weren't given ear plugs! I worried about the babies, the parents probably think the kid is OK if he's asleep. Hours of exposure to deafening music at that age!
The next day I waited outside the hotel while the band played. One of the conference workers saw me, said "come on in!" I said "I'm waiting for the noise to stop." He said "that's not noise, that's worship!" I said "not when it damages hearing." He left me, obviously writing me off.
Is God honored when we "worship" in a way that sacrifices the health of our fellow worshipers? I say no, but the people who organize loud band events like it loud and, like my friend, don't care what it does to anyone's hearing.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
It is possible to hear bats when you're older. Last year, on a visit to Italy, I found the noise of the bats in a city square in the evenings unpleasantly loud and shrill, and I'm 46!
But back to the OP. Yes, I absolutely agree that churches should not be inadvertently causing physical harm. It wouldn't be acceptable if it was visible harm; why should it be acceptable if it's the invisible effects on hearing?
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
It is possible to hear bats when you're older. Last year, on a visit to Italy, I found the noise of the bats in a city square in the evenings unpleasantly loud and shrill, and I'm 46!
....
Yes, rate of hearing loss (like many other aspects of human performance) with age varies a lot between individuals, and you are evidently one of the lucky ones.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Hearing impairment is a subject dear to my heart, as I am profoundly deafened, and have been all my life.
I once left a church which had electric guitars and two very large amplifiers. I cannot tolerate organ music played fortissimo. It's cacaphony.
I attend a church now which has a piano and a choir. Just about tolerable.
I was talking with my audiologist when I went in for tests for a new hearing aid this summer. She mentioned that she had just seen a 12 year old boy whose hearing had been irreparably damaged by the very loud music his family listened to. He now wears two aids.
I said that she will never be out of a job. Very sad.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
If you're worried about hearing damage, carry a set of earplugs.
It's not that hard, I usually have a dozen or so on my person at any time. I've whipped them out and put them on in trains, at work, and at sporting events. And I guess if I was in a church and it was too loud, I'd put them in then, too!
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Spiffy - the service I found painful had about 20 children attending. Choosing as an adult to protect my hearing by acting individualistically is not ethical in that situation.
When I was originally thinking about starting this thread it was to wonder why we were ignoring the risks to our hearing in our behaviour. But having come out of a family service attended by a lot of children that was too loud I started wondering less about individual responsibilities but more about what we were doing to our youngsters and other vulnerable people.
I can choose to walk away and not participate. The five year olds present, couldn't.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
If you're worried about hearing damage, carry a set of earplugs.
It's not that hard, I usually have a dozen or so on my person at any time. I've whipped them out and put them on in trains, at work, and at sporting events. And I guess if I was in a church and it was too loud, I'd put them in then, too!
Actually, it is hard. My ear interiors are so small I have great difficulty inserting ear plugs effectively.
More important, if ear plugs are advisable, they should be required of all people (including the babies!) entering the room with the loud noise. Those creating the noise level have a responsibility to make it a generally safe level or else provide and insist on use of safety equipment.
As for me, wouldn't occur to me to think I should bring earplugs to a church! (Unlike you, I don't have need of them more than once every year or two, so I don't carry them.) How would I wear what I don't have with me?
Most people would trust that a church surely wouldn't do anything physically harmful, so the noise level must be safe.
Interesting thought -- could a church be successfully sued for hearing loss contributed to by loud bands and insufficient warning of the danger of exposure to that noise level?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Quite often on trains, I can hear people's music perfectly when they are sitting next to me and even from across the carriage. How it must be in their ears, I don't know.
And yes, I do sometimes ask if they would turn it down and people are usually happy to do so.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
Since people's ears seem to differ, I'm wondering how a church would objectively know if their noise level was too loud. Is there a recognised standard level beyond which is considered dangerous, and can equipment be easily found to measure the noise?
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The church is a working environment for the clergy, is it not covered by the relevant Health and Safety legislation ? (That gives decibel levels.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Perky Ears there are relevant working levels legally for working environments. According to Professor David McAlpine in the recording in the OP (I hope it was then not the Q&A session afterwards) the people who work in nightclubs legally have to wear earplugs to work in that environment. Sound outside work is recognised as a serious risk factor in hearing loss.
My daughter who is an engineer spent her university training being told that the biggest cause of death in engineers was suicide in middle age when they lost their hearing as a way to encourage them to wear ear protection in the workshops. I can't find a reference for that, but I can find a reference linking depression and social isolation in the elderly to untreated hearing loss.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
In Brazil, I often pass by churches with people shouting on the top over their voices over an over-amped PA system.
This always makes me think: "God isn't deaf you know!"
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Quite often on trains, I can hear people's music perfectly when they are sitting next to me and even from across the carriage. How it must be in their ears, I don't know.
Blasting. I know, because that's how my husband listens to music. Borrow his headphones and your ears get blasted.
My Dad was deaf and needed lights for phone and doorbell, plus a loop system in the house. He had to stop listening to music entirely in the last 10 years of his life.
You'd think Mr Boogs would have learned from this - he hasn't.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
A lot of the research into sound pressure levels was done into industrial noise. It is a given that music of the same sound pressure level does not damage the hearing to the same extent as working in a noisy factory or walking alongside a busy road does.
As far as church music is concerned, there's nothing can compare to the sound of a 32' organ pipe turned up so that you can feel the bass. The same goes for rock led worship.
Distorted music is more damaging than non distorted music, so a small P A system flat out could be less damaging than a large P A with lots of headroom, even if the latter is actually louder. It could be the problem is that the P A is not large enough.
Back in the '70s Leeds City Council installed devices which would cut the power to amplifiers if the sound pressure level went above 93dB. It didn't last long. It led to people going in to classical concerts with dB meters and interrupting the performances when the orchestra went above that volume. A symphony orchestra can get bloody loud.
But worship is not a Motörhead concert. It is, among a lot of other things, a corporate experience. If the band or organ or whatever are so loud that the congregation cannot hear themselves then it is too loud. If the congregation are singing so loud that the accompanying music cannot be heard then the music is too quiet. What works for a tent full of thousands at Spring Harvest will be too loud in a congregation of 30.
As for screens around a drum kit, they allow the drummer to use dynamics, to play both loud and soft; it increases the range of the instrument without the other musicians having to turn up. Drum screens are to allow people to play quieter.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Some good posts here. I'm a music lecturer and also a lover of rock music. I have to warn my students to be vigilant with ear protection. As Blackbeard already mentioned, the warning signs were there from decades ago when very loud music became a normal occurrence. Overall, I'm rather pessimistic about changing attitudes to high-volumes. I am classical musician ('tut') but have also played a lot of jazz and rock music. In studio settings those volumes are much easier to control for yourself. Two years ago I was at the HTB away event Home Focus where the rock band played in a massive circus-style tent. I took a number of decibal readings, but as I didn't have ear protection I was unwilling to get too close. From about row 20 toward the speakers the sustained level hovered around 95+db with some sections and peaks close to 100db. Even the children's service hovered around 90db--which is shameful.
This is not a new issue. When confronted with this concern the performers are quick to assure you (me?) that the volume is kept at a 'safe' level (which is a blatant porky--safe levels stay below 80db for extended periods). I suspect that the truth of the matter is that they have no idea what the safe levels really are. The fact is, in most areas of pop/rock music, the volume is part of the 'experience' (and I think there is something to that claim) and without volume, some kinds of music just doesn't have the same 'effect'. Therefore, they're not going to change even in the full knowledge that attending such services results in permanent hearing loss.
If you quit smoking, the cilia in your lungs can grow back. In the case of your hearing, once it's damaged (and prolonged exposure to high db levels is the key) it doesn't return.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
I say, what fun this thread is! just like old times for me ...
Anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
A lot of the research into sound pressure levels was done into industrial noise. It is a given that music of the same sound pressure level does not damage the hearing to the same extent as working in a noisy factory or walking alongside a busy road does.
Yes, I have seen some speculation along these lines but nothing that could be called proof - but then, I haven't been active in this field for a good few years now. Do you have any evidence which could support the assertion? and would it still hold if the "music" was not desired by the listener, in which case it would technically be considered noise?
quote:
Distorted music is more damaging than non distorted music, so a small P A system flat out could be less damaging than a large P A with lots of headroom, even if the latter is actually louder. It could be the problem is that the P A is not large enough.
Do you mean that the smaller system is more damaging?
and is the effect simply that the distorted music contains more high frequency, or is there something else?
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hi Folks
Noise control is what I do for work.
Current legislation is uniform accross the EU ('Physical Agents Directive'), and reflects the principles of the UK noise at work regs (1989) whilst bringing down the thresholds of two of the action levels at which an employer has a responsibility to 'do things'. Though people *working* around amplified music were exempt from the regs for the first few years (there was a 'derogation' to allow the industry time to sort itself out and research to be done), for the last 2 years or so, they are included.
The regs reflect the two known mechanisms of hearing damage:
1) How much sound *energy* do your ears soak up over the course of a (nominally 8-hour) working day,
and
2) What *peak* (instantaneous) levels are your ears exposed to, such that instantaneous and perhaps permanent damage might result?
With regard to 1) - if your employer leads you to be subjected to 80dBA average over 8 hours, they must make hearing protection available. 80dBA is not so loud - a busy road perhaps. If you are exposed to an average of 85dBA over 8 hours at work, they must not only provide protection, but make sure you wear it (properly, and in the right areas around noisy kit at work).
Because of the way decibels work (a log scale) then 80dBA exposure for 8 hours = 83 for 4 hours, 86 for 2 hours, 89 for one hour, 92 for 30 mins; so in an average church service the energy threshold would probably be between 89 and 92 dBA assuming between 30 mins and one hour of loud music. This also assumes that for the rest of Sunday, people are exposed to levels less than about 80dBA (this won't do much to the overall measure, owing to the log scale. You don't have to spend the rest of Sunday on silent retreat!).
With regard to 2), no-one is to be exposed to >140dB peak. This doesn't happen with amplified music, for reasons you can PM me for if you want to be entirely bored.
Note that it only applies to working personnel - so doublethink's point about clergy is a good one. As a 'punter' you have no redress under the regs, though if it was a commercial gig there should be a line on the ticket somewhere saying 'loud music can damage your ears'. As an unpaid worship leader (or door steward?) I think the church might have a duty of care towards you.
As to what level you are likely to be exposed to - my experience in concert noise control suggests people start to chat / complain when a pop/rock gig falls below 90-94dBA (short-term average) - jazz and classical are of course different. 95-98dBA would be loud but not unusual. All these numbers are above the threshold we worked out earlier where in a paid situation an employer would have to make protection available - though perhaps only approaching the levels at which they would have to ensure you wore it.
This is too long already...but plastic boxes for drummers are a good sign and borrow from theatre practice. They mean the drummer can hear himself, the on-stage level is lower (since the guitar and bass amps don't have to be 'up' for the right balance with the acoustic drum output), and most of the sound power is coming through the main PA, which has a trained guy on it who can turn things down on the main faders beacuse he's a professional and doesn't need to prove something by making everyone's ears bleed...right? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[Nightmare scenario is un-boxed acoustic drum kit and 'big amp' backline on stage, with only vocals through PA. Sound man can turn the PA off, and it will still be deafening. One then has to walk onstage and start fighting with the musicians over the knob settings on their amps... ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Not a happy way to earn a crust.)
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
The church is a working environment for the clergy, is it not covered by the relevant Health and Safety legislation ? (That gives decibel levels.)
I would have thought it would be - but the chance of an HSE inspector getting involved is probably fairly slim. There are too many uncertainties, too many variables, and not enough people involved, to make it an effective target; industrial noise is much easier!
But if a clergy person (or anyone else) were concerned about hearing loss and brought a civil action, that might be another matter (though under current legislation, I'm not sure how this might go). It wouldn't be a way of getting rich, certainly. And you would need evidence in addition to a noise survey; preferably "before" and "after" audiometry.
Which is a hint for anyone worried; get your hearing checked, now, by an audiologist, and be sure that the results are recorded.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Having hearing aids is an advantage when encountering loud music in most upscale restaurants. I can just turn them off. Too bad about the youngsters but they'll soon enough have their own hearing aids at age forty instead of 80.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
This also assumes that for the rest of Sunday, people are exposed to levels less than about 80dBA
Oops - should read 'less than about 70dBA'. Not unlikely, for most people.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Ummm...for me, noise is just acoustic energy. Praise bands, organs, aircraft, sexually-unrestrained neighbours - it's all the same to me ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
I have to say I've never heard an organ anything like loud enough to make be think it'd be worth getting the meter out, but in principle, yes.
To be fair, I've never heard a "praise band" that was particularly loud either, but that's my intentionally limited experience.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Both Marvin.
The service I attended on Sunday, all the sound was too loud, the words in the spoken parts and the music. My damage is from feedback on a sound system in a traditional church. Too high for most people to hear, excruciatingly painful if you could - mosquito levels and pitch.
I wondered about organ music and wondered if the difference is that the time it's playing is shorter. Usually for say 5 minutes 6 or 7 times during the service (introit, Gloria, gradual, offertory, communion, post communion, voluntary). Organists are not exempt from hearing damage. So say 30 minutes maximum and for several of those the organ will not be going full pelt.
The services I've attended with praise bands tend to have music continuously for 10 to 20 minutes, 3 or 4 times during the service. So nearer an hour of full sound.
Of the main factors in hearing damage, one is the time of exposure and another is the volume.
[ 27. November 2012, 13:34: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
Of course other types and styles of music can also be loud, though most classical (and other) styles have greater dynamic variety.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
Very rare is a church organ which can prevail above so much as a brass quartet in the building, let alone guitars etc. with heavy amplification.
Concert-hall organs, designed to hold their own against an orchestra, must be scaled and voiced much more boldly. I don't hear many complaints about these; in fact a surprising number have been built within the past twenty years. (Maybe I don't hear them because I'm deaf ![[Confused]](confused.gif) )
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
I think you're spot on here.
We've faced these sorts of "concerns" at our church as part & parcel of our "worship wars". fwiw, my husband (a sound engineer) has, in fact, pulled out his meter and measured on numerous occasions-- including the youth band which in our place is by far louder and more percussion driven. He has yet to measure a reading even close to what audiologists have determined to be dangerous. ymmv-- but color me suspicious.
Having the meter is handy though, in dismissing this argument and moving the discussion along to what is really underlying those concerns.
[ 27. November 2012, 15:06: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
I think you're spot on here.
But the loud organ music is not sustained over long periods, unless perhaps you're doing a mass setting by Philip Glass. In contrast, a loud praise band will blast its music steadily for 15 or 20 minutes before things settle down.
As for the damage sustained loud noises can do, my old piano tuner ended up hardly able to hear a thing by the time he retired.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
Marvin, the main problem is electronic amplification, leading to much higher sustained levels than are possible "unplugged". The levels can be and have been measured. Sorry, but if you think this is nothing more than prejudice against modern music then you are ill informed.
I have nothing against modern praise music and I deeply regret that there is a problem; I would like to be convinced that there really isn't a problem; I would like to think that particpants are both praising and enjoying, without ill effects; but the evidence says otherwise.
I don't know of any measurements of volume from a pipe organ but, subjectively, I would be surprised if there's a serious problem. I have never heard an organ (not even the Albert Hall one) which gave me cause for anxiety. But maybe I should get a meter out.
For the record, and a bit off topic, there have been studies of noise and noise-induced hearing loss from "classical" musicians and, yes, there is a problem (which seems to be at its worst in reverberant over-crowded practice rooms), but I'm not convinced that it is especially serious one. And "classical" orchestras can produce some pretty high levels though, generally, not for long periods.
And a bit more off topic: the classical orchestra, defined more strictly in the sense Mozart/Haydn, was nothing like as loud as the modern symphony orchestra; it was much smaller with maybe 30 players, and (so far as I can gather) instruments were not as loud; violins, for instance, had gut strings, and lower string tension than is now the case.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
I think you're spot on here.
We've faced these sorts of "concerns" at our church as part & parcel of our "worship wars". fwiw, my husband (a sound engineer) has, in fact, pulled out his meter and measured on numerous occasions-- including the youth band which in our place is by far louder and more percussion driven. He has yet to measure a reading even close to what audiologists have determined to be dangerous. ymmv-- but color me suspicious.
Having the meter is handy though, in dismissing this argument and moving the discussion along to what is really underlying those concerns.
Yes, you seem to be fortunate in your praise band. Of course they will vary.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My original idea for this thread was to discuss how we are sitting on a hearing time bomb - and wonder about the way we use music and amplification generally.
I know that the teenagers I've worked with have been listening to music through earphones at sound levels I suspect are damaging. And the lack of awareness of hearing loss and the way ears cannot repair themselves is something we're oblivious to
I grew up with a grandfather who was deafened in his 20s at the Battle of the Somme and saw how that deafness affected him and left him isolated. I remember how hard it was to hold a conversation with him, and how we avoided doing so.
Professor David McAlpine said George Martin is profoundly deaf now, cannot hear any of that music he produced.
Do we really wish this on ourselves? Should we not be aware of these issues as churches?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Yes, Curiosity KTC, we should, but there is a pretty consistant pattern of presenting to both the young and old compelling evidence of what they are doing to themselves--and them ignoring it. We've tried awareness campaigns, even involving celebrities like Pete Townsend and others. A significant part of the church is devoted to amplified pop music in church and it is a massive business. The whole culture that goes with it insists on loud volumes. I can tell you that I have spoken to several very well-known worship leaders in the UK and they only play lip service to the idea--they go right back out there in the full knowledge that as they play they are permanently doing damage to the hearing of their congregations. The bond between that segment of evangelical culture and pop culture cannot easily be broken. The last thing they want is to be told to turn it down. They won't do it.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Marvin, the main problem is electronic amplification, leading to much higher sustained levels than are possible "unplugged". The levels can be and have been measured.
Can you provide any evidence to back this up? So far the only person who has mentioned actually using a decibel meter in a service has reported that there was nothing to worry about.
I strongly suspect that any evidence that gets produced will be from rock concerts and/or nightclubs, where the music really is so loud that you can't hear yourself shout. But I've never once been to a church service where the praise band played anything like so loudly, amplified or not. The only time I've had anything like the same "can't hear myself shout" experience in a church service was when the only instrument in the building was an organ, and even then it wasn't as loud as a concert or nightclub.
I'm still not convinced that this is anything other than prejudice against modern-style music. All the talk of "amplification" is just code for "electric guitars". My reasons for thinking that? Well, in one church I used to play in the band at we used to get the same complaints about "amplified music". So we did one service where only the cello and piano were used, and the complainers all said how nice it was to be without "amplified music". Of course, they weren't aware that the electric piano and the cello (via a pick up) were being piped through exactly the same amplification system as the band the week before. At a louder setting. The complainers didn't give a shit about sound levels or amplification, they just didn't like the guitars and weren't honest enough to come out and say so.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I reported using a decibal metre in a number of services at dangerous levels.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
And Marvin, I've said I've found speech painful too, amplified to too high a volume.
(I actually play guitar, don't have an issue with it)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Marvin, I appreciate your feelings on this and I would love it if we could avoid another worship wars thread. I confess my musical preferences for devotional music (though I don't have a record of keeping those opinions to myself). Back to the topic…
There is a perception amongst some musicians that loudness is about perception; some things seem louder to some than others. There is a bit of truth in this, but the science is a little different. One very worrying pattern is that once your hearing is damaged, even a little, you need louder and louder volumes to get the same 'effect' that lower levels once had. Each of these steps, in turn, leads to an increase in the loss of hearing. I know a rock musician in London who became a composer (and composed many high-profile works for TV and film). His public career is basically over, although he is not even 50--the reason is that he has lost all of his hearing from prolonged exposure to excessive volumes.
I would agree that rock/pop music loses much of its effect when played at safe volumes. However, you cannot have it and not have it.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There's no way known that music in a church needs to be loud enough to set my ears ringing. It's not a concert.
I can't recall it ever HAPPENING in church, mind you. But I certainly wouldn't stick around if it did.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
One very worrying pattern is that once your hearing is damaged, even a little, you need louder and louder volumes to get the same 'effect' that lower levels once had. Each of these steps, in turn, leads to an increase in the loss of hearing.
I have a theory that each generation of sound engineers deafens the next. They turn it up for themselves, and in doing so start the damage in the next group of people seriously into music who will consider that career.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is this just another excuse to have a go at modern-style praise bands, or are you perfectly happy to get the noise meters out when the organ's playing as well?
I think you're spot on here.
We've faced these sorts of "concerns" at our church as part & parcel of our "worship wars". fwiw, my husband (a sound engineer) has, in fact, pulled out his meter and measured on numerous occasions-- including the youth band which in our place is by far louder and more percussion driven. He has yet to measure a reading even close to what audiologists have determined to be dangerous. ymmv-- but color me suspicious.
Having the meter is handy though, in dismissing this argument and moving the discussion along to what is really underlying those concerns.
Yes, you seem to be fortunate in your praise band. Of course they will vary.
Yes-- hence my "ymmv". But I think there are also a couple of underlying truth here:
1. Our perceptions of "too loud" are at least to some degree related to our perception of whether the sound in question is pleasurable or not.
2. When it comes to "worship wars", as with so many conflicts, what is presented as the concern/ problem is not always the real issue. Christians don't like to say "I don't like that style of worship/ coffee/ music/ whatever and I wish you'd do what I like" so they often frame the issue differently-- sometimes by putting the concern in someone else's mouth ("I am fine with it, but I think the older folks will feel excluded...") or focusing on something else. Getting at the real problem is essential to resolving the conflict.
In this case, being able to measure the actual volume enabled us to dismiss the red herring issue and move to the uncomfortable conversation that the hearing (herring) issue was trying to evade.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Can you provide any evidence to back this up? So far the only person who has mentioned actually using a decibel meter in a service has reported that there was nothing to worry about.
.....
Marvin, we have on this thread measurements by Komensky, report of tinnitus by CK, and a report on use of ear plugs by Belle Ringer. Now I know the latter two are not meter measurements, but tinnitus is associated with long term damage, and a perceived need for hearing protection is unlikely to occur at safe (or anywhere near safe) levels.
And of course other reports showing that levels at other services can be "safe".
From which we can deduce two things - that the levels can vary greatly from one worship service to another (which shouldn't surprise us); and that a service with "safe" levels is possible.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
One of the main ways that ears get damaged is too much being pushed down the mid mix. Underpowered PAs, not having a wide enough FOH rig, to allow for frequencies to be properly generated, without the harsh clipping that does the damage.
There's also a perfect storm where you have dB limiting without a decent EQ curve boosting the bottom and top... meaning that everything is more ear-pummelling.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
If you stick with what I suggested earlier, that the volume levels of a worship service should not go above where people can hear themselves sing*, then I'd be surprised if sound pressure gets into the high levels that cause hearing loss. This applies equally to rock bands and organists who play all stops out.
*I mean sing, not scream at the top of your voice to be heard.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
USeful information here. I work in a church and we get organists practising and currently drilling which can get pretty overwhelming. I think I need to put a decibel meter on my phone and record the levels. ORgans can get very loud, especially when the 32ft pedal pipes are outside your office door!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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