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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Holiday trees
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Walk around any British town, the tree decorations are no longer called Christmas trees.
Which is pretty darn silly so long as most people think the reason the tree is there is because of Christmas.
And if the tree gets put up at a certain time and gets taken down at a certain time, in line with previous traditions... look, if it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's still a duck even if a bureaucrat thinks it better to label it as "unspecified avian".
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Not this again. I am in Canada and get sick & tired of this whole " war on Christmas" that the religous right & their pals of FOXNEWS
get up every year. I had a message forwarded me calling us , in song to boycott stores where they don't say Merry Christmas. Its the silly season people.
Also can we show that we can all get along. Oh I forgot, in some views the USA is a Christian nation. A load of baloney IMHO .
So to all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It seems to me that this entire thread has taken on a particular flavour simply because the long ranger doesn't like christmas.
He's a lovely bloke but his opinions are stupid ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Not this again. I am in Canada and get sick & tired of this whole " war on Christmas" that the religous right & their pals of FOXNEWS get up every year.
Part of the rhetorical trickery involved in such appeals is to talk of Christmas being banned from "public spaces" or "the public square". Most people will interpret this as anywhere people can congregrate freely, while the actual meaning in this context is property owned by the government. Mudfrog employed this bit of rhetorical ju-jitsu upthread.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
I had a message forwarded me calling us, in song to boycott stores where they don't say Merry Christmas. Its the silly season people.
See this:
quote:
"I Usually Say 'Happy Holidays,'" By Jesus Christ
Honestly? It's just a matter of politeness. Some people don't celebrate my birthday, and I try not to make anyone feel uncomfortable about it. I'm like that.
Plus, there are - and I am not exaggerating - a lot of Jewish people in my family. I spent my whole life with them, and yeah, they don't really approve of my career as the Messiah. But families are always like that. You think I want folks celebrating my birthday by taking an entire month to turn America into a sparkly, glowing Gentilepalooza, and making everyone I'm related to feel isolated and weird? Seriously, what kind of massive douche would that make me? If your idea of celebrating my season is making an elderly Wal-Mart greeter offend a few hundred cousins of mine, you just have no idea who I am or what I want.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Two pages in a day - this really is a hot button issue!
Not for me 'tho, I don't care what the trees are called. I love 'em and always have a huge real one.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
In my little Bible Belt town the taxpayer money is used to put up December decorations -- secular decorations, stockings and snowflakes (not that it snows here). The decorations are in the shopping district.
The goal -- to celebrate a particular religion? Heck no, to get people to do the shopping many in our culture do in December, in our town instead of elsewhere. The tax-paid displays are in support of our local businesses, not in support of our Christian churches.
Other (secular) decorations go up other times of year that the city thinks decorations will help attract people to spend money here.
For the month of December, another lighted display goes up in the park. All of it is paid for by private money, each figure or display has a sign who paid for it. Some displays are religious (including Jewish), most are secular like reindeer, some have nothing to do with any particular season or celebration like a kangaroo or a helicopter made out of colored light bulbs.
No tax money goes into displaying the Christian religion. If that's true in a Bible Belt city, it's probably true in most places.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
And there's no way in hell anyone could mistake your Ramadan tree for a Christmas tree.
Really. And pray, how are you suddenly an expert on Ramadan trees?
Did you actually look at the photo?
It's a tree. That isn't remotely the right shape for a Christmas tree. Not all trees look identical, you know. More on that in a minute...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ducks in The Nile
The scene: a conference room overlooking the Nile (a river in Egypt). The MANAGER is standing near an easel with a board on it. A cloth is covering the board. Several members of a work crew are entering the room.
MANAGER: Come in, come in. Take a seat.
The crew get themselves settled
MANAGER: Right, thanks for coming everyone. Now, as you know, it’s been our tradition in this town for many, many years to place a giant replica of a duck in the Nile at this time of year. It’s a longstanding Egyptian tradition.
Heads nod.
MANAGER: However, the nature of our town is changing. We are now a multicultural society. And the management committee has felt that we need to reflect that, and recognize that there are other sorts of birds that have meaning for other cultures around us.
The MANAGER consults his notes.
MANAGER: The Nubians are very fond of parrots. The Sumerians have a special association with hawks. The Libyans who’ve come here liked the duck thing, and have adopted some of the ideas but they use a chicken instead. And some of our immigrants from further afield have a festival at this time of year that involves a bird called a… penguin. Yes, a penguin.
The MANAGER looks very satisfied with himself for understanding what a penguin is.
MANAGER: So, the management committee has decided that we are going to be more inclusive, and from now on we will put a non-specific bird in the river, so as not to alienate those members of our community for whom an emphasis on ducks might be offensive. I’ve asked you here to show you the design for this year’s bird.
The MANAGER removes the cloth from the board. There is a second of silence, and then a CREWMAN speaks up.
CREWMAN: It’s a duck.
MANAGER: It’s a bird.
CREWMAN: It’s a duck.
MANAGER: It’s a bird.
CREWMAN: I can see it’s a bird. I can even tell you what kind of bird it is. A duck.
MANAGER: It is not a duck. The management committee were quite clear in their decision that it would be inappropriate to continue to put a duck on the Nile, so we are having a bird instead.
CREWMAN: Then why does it look exactly like a duck?
MANAGER: What? No it doesn’t! It’s clearly a bird. Look, there’s the wings, the legs… everything you’d expect to find on a bird.
CREWMAN: It looks exactly the same as last year’s duck design.
MANAGER: Yes, okay, to a layman I suppose there’s a certain resemblance…
CREWMAN: It’s identical.
MANAGER: …but let me be clear about this. This is a non-specific bird. It represents all the different kinds of birds. Parrots and hawks and chickens and penguins.
CREWMAN: It doesn’t look anything like a parrot.
MANAGER: It’s got wings, hasn’t it?
CREWMAN: That doesn’t make it a parrot.
MANAGER: It’s not supposed to BE a parrot. It’s supposed to be a bird. One that all bird lovers can appreciate and enjoy. We’re trying to update our traditions.
CREWMAN: Then why did you stick with a duck?
MANAGER: You cannot call it a duck! It’s very important we don’t call it a duck! You might offend people who aren’t into ducks!
CREWMAN: Won’t they be more offended that you think they’re stupid enough to not realize it’s a duck?
MANAGER: IT’S NOT A DUCK!
CREWMAN: It certainly looks like one.
MANAGER: NO IT DOESN’T! IT LOOKS LIKE A BIRD!! ANY RESEMBLANCE TO A DUCK IS JUST A COINCIDENCE!! WE ARE NOT PUTTING A DUCK IN THE NILE!!
Lights.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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poileplume
Shipmate
# 16438
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Posted
The government of Québec ruled that by law in this province by law a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree and nothing else. (Well actually it is a sapin de noel but that amounts to the same thing.)
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Please note I am quite severely dyslexic
Posts: 319 | From: Quebec | Registered: May 2011
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I just watched a discussion on Fox News about the insistence by some groups and even by the Governor of Rhode Island that Christmas trees should be redesignated as 'Holiday trees'.
... What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?
What is it with you for watching that tacky, right wing, neo-con Fox News?
Why is it "stupid" for Americans, and here we have the governor of Rhode Island among them, wanting to share the Christmas tree with other, Non-Christian faiths? For decades we Americans have rejoiced with Jewish citizens and their Hannukkah bushes. It's only natural for the whole population, especially at the urging of kids, to want tree for the holiday too.
Are we supposed to act like the Soup Nazi and say, "No trees for YOU!"? There are holiday (or Christmas) trees everywhere in the USA, including ones at the White House, on the Capitol Mall in Washington and among the government buildings of every state I know of. What are we supposed to say about that? "Those trees are for us Christians alone and not for you others?"
Now THAT would be truly stupid.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
How is it that people confuse 'inclusive' so badly with 'homogenised'.
Here's a tip. If you actually WANT to be inclusive, put up a Christmas tree. Next to it, put up a symbol of Hanukkah. Next to that, put up a symbol of Kwanzaa.
Don't put up a tree that is the right kind of tree for Christmas, and the right shape, and is associated with Christmas, and has a nice sparkling star on top, and pretend that it's now somehow become a symbol of lots of other things. It's a delusion that satisfies no-one other than a few politically correct people who think that everyone won't notice what the tree actually represents so long as you call it by another name.
There is absolutely nothing 'inclusive' about saying to other religions "hey, we'll call it a general celebration so long as we can continue to use OUR symbol. With another name so it's not too obvious."
Trust me, it's obvious. It's a classic case of those in charge being seen to have done something while having done precisely nothing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
referring to the OP
Funny thing is, as touched on by Barnabas, this is simply the religious right whinging about the non-existent attacks upon Christianity. It is becoming a Christmas/Easter tradition in itself.
[ 30. November 2012, 02:28: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Well by God, my religious beliefs are under attack from those godless libtards.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
This is a pond thing in large part.
Ignoring the fact that ignoring Christmas in New England is just getting back to the colonial traditions there's the history of not tolerating non christianity in the public space in America.
If atheists and those who practice other religions don't want the state to fund religious displays, that's in keeping with the law of the land.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
[tangent]
Can Americans please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
It would be nice if you could restrict the word to things that genuinely do only involve North America and Europe. Such as the American Revolution and the one and only voyage of the Titanic.
[/tangent]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[tangent]
Can Americans please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
It would be nice if you could restrict the word to things that genuinely do only involve North America and Europe. Such as the American Revolution and the one and only voyage of the Titanic.
[/tangent]
The OP is from Newcastle (UK) about a story from the US, and the first two references to the "pond" are from Norfolk (UK) and Manchester (UK). Why does it suddenly become objectionable when an American uses the term?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The second one WAS country-specific, and the first one was from a Purg host. You want me to pick fights with Purg hosts?
(Plus it was about the possible nature of the thread. It did indeed have the potential to be a Pond rant. But then I stepped in and made it suitably global. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
EDIT: Oh look, let's just face it. Americans are horrible baby-eating 2-headed monsters and I find them morally reprehensible, that's why.
[ 30. November 2012, 05:03: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think an acerbic note, from the blessed Stan Freeberg, on the "real" meaning of Christmas, might be in order at this point in time.
As sure as there's an "X" in Christmas, Tiny Tim
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I just watched a discussion on Fox News about the insistence by some groups and even by the Governor of Rhode Island that Christmas trees should be redesignated as 'Holiday trees'.
I cannot be the only person who noticed the similarity between that story and the reported false claims on snopes.com that the Obama White House called their Christmas trees 'Holiday trees' in 2009 and 2011. I could be wrong, but from here this sounds like another 'Winterval' myth.
[ 30. November 2012, 06:12: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Anyway, Christmas wouldn't be Christmas without a few really scratchy threads in Purg.
Peace on earth? Good will? There often tends to be a bit more "bah, humbug" about. Something to do with unrest and general economic downtime blues and general paranoia. Bloody Fox News. I need to get back to Youtube and watch Karl Rove exploding on US election night. Now that's a present I can open several times ...
Anyway, you don't know you're born. Why I remember a time when I thought it was a really good Christmas if I got an apple and an orange in my Christmas stocking (that was a home-made, hand knit woolly job). And beforehand, hearing my poor old mum, contemplating an empty purse and a shopping list full of impossible obligations, grumbling "I hate Christmas. I hate it .." Knew just what she meant.
Enough of my blethering. Do feel free to carry on. I'll just contemplate poverty and stables for a little while ..
[ 30. November 2012, 06:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by poileplume:
The government of Québec ruled that by law in this province by law a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree and nothing else. (Well actually it is a sapin de noel but that amounts to the same thing.)
I bet my guinea to your gooseberry that is a consequence of Francophone language law and nothing whatsoever to do with the Reason for the Season.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The second one WAS country-specific, and the first one was from a Purg host. You want me to pick fights with Purg hosts?
Thanks for the explanation! It's now perfectly clear to me how writing
quote:
Can people please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
would have totally have been picking a fight with Barnabas62(!). Yes, yes, criticizing only Americans for a usage of the word "pond" that made you feel left out was definitely the only way to make your point while avoiding that bloodbath. Planking averted - well done!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
EDIT: Oh look, let's just face it. Americans are horrible baby-eating 2-headed monsters and I find them morally reprehensible, that's why.
I'm glad to see you finally admitting this, Orfeo. It's the first step to recovery...
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Then he's not doing too well this year...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) for him, ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) for the ashes
Does this mean the sun won't rise on New Year's Day, and we'll have to find a couple of virgins to sacrifice in a whicker basket?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[tangent]
Can Americans please stop referring to the pond as shorthand for "we do something different to the rest of the world"? Some of us are nowhere near the pond.
It would be nice if you could restrict the word to things that genuinely do only involve North America and Europe. Such as the American Revolution and the one and only voyage of the Titanic.
[/tangent]
And on a thread that sets out to bash Americans, we're supposed to care about being nice?!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Does this mean the sun won't rise on New Year's Day, and we'll have to find a couple of virgins to sacrifice in a whicker basket?
For gods' sake, Anselmina, when you sacrifice to Odin you hang the victim from a tree and stab him with a spear. Wicker baskets? No wonder the climate is all to Hel!
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Taranis, wasn't it?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
I'm now 85 but even when I was an infant I knew what a Chrstmas Tree was.
To all who celebrate Christmas it will always be a Christmas Tree,whatever other religions or the non religions call their trees.
Don't worry about it a Christmas tree will always be a Christmas tree.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Quite right too barrea, as usual.
If you don't post again before the day, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Does this mean the sun won't rise on New Year's Day, and we'll have to find a couple of virgins to sacrifice in a whicker basket?
You'd better find them before the Christmas parties start. Otherwise they may no longer be eligible.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
My guess is that the good governor of Rhode Island meant that the official term of the tree would be a "Holiday Tree." I seriously don't think that the governor intends to prosecute anyone who calls it a "Christmas Tree."
It's really much ado about nothing. Christians are of course, free to call it a "Christmas Tree" in the same way, that of course they can still say "Merry Christmas." The issue is whether or not it is appropriate in a pluralist, multi-faith society, whether or not the official and legal term for these things should have religious connotation.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The official and legal term for a thing should have a religious connotation if the thing it is referring to has a religious connotation.
That's my point. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of the thing AT ALL. It's still a thing with a religious connotation even if you pretend that it doesn't. So why bother? Who is fooled by this? Do they think any particularly militant atheists who are keen to enforce the separation of church and state will be fooled? Do they think the local Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc etc suddenly won't recognise the shape/colour/species of the particular tree selected?
It's a remarkably empty gesture.
EDIT: And why stop at asking whether trees are allowed to be officially referred to with religious connotations? I can think of a few other things with religious connotations that get officially referred to. Church. That's a BAD one. Ramadan. Easter. SYNAGOGUE.
[ 30. November 2012, 23:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Faux Snooze is owned by a guy named Murdoch. Does this ring any bells on the other side of the pond?
Every year for at least the last 20 years Faux Snooze raises this red herring. They created the War on Christmas to generate advertisement revenue.
The real war on Christmas is the over commercialization of the season. Let's focus on doing neighborly things like the New York policeman giving a pair of new boots to a shoeless homeless man.
BTW, as a taxi driver who works with a lot of Muslim students here in America, whenever I ask them what they are going to do for winter break they ask me what I am going to do for Christmas. They don't seem offended by Christmas. In fact, they are genuinely interested in learning how we celebrate Christmas. And, often times, they ask about the Christian faith.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Faux Snooze is owned by a guy named Murdoch. Does this ring any bells on the other side of the pond?
Murdoch is not particularly cared for by decent people on any side of any pond, lake, river or wet tarmac.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My guess is that the good governor of Rhode Island meant that the official term of the tree would be a "Holiday Tree." I seriously don't think that the governor intends to prosecute anyone who calls it a "Christmas Tree."
It's really much ado about nothing. Christians are of course, free to call it a "Christmas Tree" in the same way, that of course they can still say "Merry Christmas." The issue is whether or not it is appropriate in a pluralist, multi-faith society, whether or not the official and legal term for these things should have religious connotation.
The perennial Fox "Keep the winter public holiday Christian" is amusing because they cite traditional values and then point to Rhode Island, a place with a long history of religious nonconformity.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
You could always get rid of the tree altogether and have a light installation instead!
And then people will complain about that, or at least the media will whip people up to complain about it...
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Let's focus on doing neighborly things like the New York policeman giving a pair of new boots to a shoeless homeless man.
Alternatively, we could move away from sentimentalising and give local government a year round duty to make sure everyone who needs to be housed, is housed.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Well, HERE is a tree I wouldn't even call a Christmas tree! LOL
It's the 'holiday' tree in a small village not too many miles from Newcastle.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Is the fence to protect it from Charlie Brown?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I just watched a discussion on Fox News about the insistence by some groups and even by the Governor of Rhode Island that Christmas trees should be redesignated as 'Holiday trees'.
What is it with you people in the US and the stupidity of things like this?
Yep, mmm-hmmm, all three hundred and fourteen million of us, from sea to shining sea, think and behave exactly the same. THAT'S A FACT, JACK.
/sarcasm off
As a descendant of one of the first white settlers in Rhode Island, and as someone who managed to get _some_ of the history of that colony dinged into my tiny brain even at three thousand miles' remove near the shores of the Pacific, I would like to give BIG UPS to the Governor for continuing the PROUD Rhode Island and American tradition of religious pluralism and tolerance - however silly I might think this particular brouhaha is.
Not sure what the Blessed Roger's [PBUH] opinions about The Matter of Christmas Celebrations were. It is, of course, well-established (if often forgotten) what the leaders in the Mass. Bay colony thought of Christmas celebrations at the time. Perhaps someone more enlightened on this subject can share information about it.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
But should we put a Christmas tree in the chancel? We've got one up and glinting and my jokes about ecumenism now allowing us to embrace and worship wood spirits seems to be seen as grumpiness.
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
Thank you Curiosity Killed ...
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The official and legal term for a thing should have a religious connotation if the thing it is referring to has a religious connotation.
That's my point. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of the thing AT ALL. It's still a thing with a religious connotation even if you pretend that it doesn't. So why bother? Who is fooled by this? Do they think any particularly militant atheists who are keen to enforce the separation of church and state will be fooled? Do they think the local Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc etc suddenly won't recognise the shape/colour/species of the particular tree selected?
It's a remarkably empty gesture.
EDIT: And why stop at asking whether trees are allowed to be officially referred to with religious connotations? I can think of a few other things with religious connotations that get officially referred to. Church. That's a BAD one. Ramadan. Easter. SYNAGOGUE.
So you're not allowed to have a secular tree? It has to be a Christmas tree and everyone should just pretend to be a Christian. Otherwise Fox News and Orfeo are going to smack you for watering down their appropriation of German pagan traditions.
If you're going to insist in holding your religious celebrations in the public square at goverment expense, don't be surprised if non Christians use the celebration for their own purposes.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The official and legal term for a thing should have a religious connotation if the thing it is referring to has a religious connotation.
That's my point. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of the thing AT ALL. It's still a thing with a religious connotation even if you pretend that it doesn't. So why bother? Who is fooled by this? Do they think any particularly militant atheists who are keen to enforce the separation of church and state will be fooled? Do they think the local Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc etc suddenly won't recognise the shape/colour/species of the particular tree selected?
It's a remarkably empty gesture.
EDIT: And why stop at asking whether trees are allowed to be officially referred to with religious connotations? I can think of a few other things with religious connotations that get officially referred to. Church. That's a BAD one. Ramadan. Easter. SYNAGOGUE.
So you're not allowed to have a secular tree? It has to be a Christmas tree and everyone should just pretend to be a Christian. Otherwise Fox News and Orfeo are going to smack you for watering down their appropriation of German pagan traditions.
If you're going to insist in holding your religious celebrations in the public square at goverment expense, don't be surprised if non Christians use the celebration for their own purposes.
I never said anything about 'not being allowed' to have a secular tree, but why on earth does your secular tree look exactly like a Christian tree if the purpose is to be not-a-Christian tree?
That's my point. I would have thought the sketch made that blindingly obvious, but apparently not.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I never said anything about 'not being allowed' to have a secular tree, but why on earth does your secular tree look exactly like a Christian tree if the purpose is to be not-a-Christian tree?
That's my point. I would have thought the sketch made that blindingly obvious, but apparently not. [/QB]
Because it's easier to relabel things for your own purposes than build new ones. Why is a Christmas tree exactly like a Yule tree? Do you think the Finnish Christmas Goat is an original idea?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Because it's easier to relabel things for your own purposes than build new ones.
In which case, you can fully expect to receive continued flak from people who recognise the thing and remember its old label.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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