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Ecclesia reformata semper reformandasecundum verbum Dei

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I used to know an evangelical Anglican parish that had a big issue in that once it'd ditched the choir robes and its 'Prayer Book evangelicalism' and introduced drum-n-bass and so on, it couldn't compete with the large independent charismatic church down the road which could do drum-n-bass and so on far much better ... nor with the Methodists up the road who had a nice new, warm building without box pews and who could offer thoughtful, 'low-church' hymns/liturgy in a way that the non-charismatics found conducive .

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If Anglican churches (at least in England and probably Wales) got on with doing what they are there for - that is, the Cure of Souls (all of them within the parish, or ministry area, or whatever they are now to be called) - and thereby developed in action the core of the worship that sustains their life, they might rediscover something very precious and distinctive.

It could even be a Fresh Expression!

Actually, thinking about it: plenty are doing this already.

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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I think you've noted, though, that such things do tend to be very 'middle class' - which does make me wonder what the church of the future may have to offer those from a different demographic to those it seems to cater for now.

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I used to know an evangelical Anglican parish that had a big issue in that once it'd ditched the choir robes and its 'Prayer Book evangelicalism' and introduced drum-n-bass and so on, it couldn't compete with the large independent charismatic church down the road which could do drum-n-bass and so on far much better ... nor with the Methodists up the road who had a nice new, warm building without box pews and who could offer thoughtful, 'low-church' hymns/liturgy in a way that the non-charismatics found conducive .

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If Anglican churches (at least in England and probably Wales) got on with doing what they are there for - that is, the Cure of Souls (all of them within the parish, or ministry area, or whatever they are now to be called) - and thereby developed in action the core of the worship that sustains their life, they might rediscover something very precious and distinctive.

It could even be a Fresh Expression!

Actually, thinking about it: plenty are doing this already.

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What began as fresh and exciting, has rapidly become stale, bland and predictable. It isn't Fresh anymore - it's pretty mainstream when you offer cafe Church, Messy Church, alternative worship etc. within the usual hierarchy or parish set up.

Even the charismatic fresh expressions of house and community churches still follow the old 1970's/80's model "The old churches aren't working: we're young fresh and vibrant: new wine in old winekins - no, new wine in new wineskins." It's all rather passe and it's hard not to be cynical when someone comes to you with what he (it's usually a he btw) says is a new idea. It's hard too not to pick a book off the shelf about Restorationism and ask him to read it to demonstrate that this "new thing" is only "new" to him.

Some personal reflections from practical experience. In 11 years between wood and water - a small area (10 mile radius say) in the SW of England - I saw, on average at least one group a year who told me that God had sent them there to plant a church because the existing ones weren't doing the job. That didn't include the church splits of which they were many of the "me too" charismatic church variety.

None have lasted. The shortest lasted 6 weeks, the longest about 6 years. The damage to existing churches has led to a 30% decline in attendance plus an acceleration of church closures. One or two buck the trend and have grown but they seem a bit more light on their feet to change and relevance. The area is known as a tough area for ministry and many don't last the course. There's high burnout (it was nearly me too) and a lot of moral failure too in the area.

The damage to the witness of the gospel is incalculable.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I used to know an evangelical Anglican parish that had a big issue in that once it'd ditched the choir robes and its 'Prayer Book evangelicalism' and introduced drum-n-bass and so on, it couldn't compete with the large independent charismatic church down the road which could do drum-n-bass and so on far much better ... nor with the Methodists up the road who had a nice new, warm building without box pews and who could offer thoughtful, 'low-church' hymns/liturgy in a way that the non-charismatics found conducive .

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If Anglican churches (at least in England and probably Wales) got on with doing what they are there for - that is, the Cure of Souls (all of them within the parish, or ministry area, or whatever they are now to be called) - and thereby developed in action the core of the worship that sustains their life, they might rediscover something very precious and distinctive.

It could even be a Fresh Expression!

Actually, thinking about it: plenty are doing this already.

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And plenty aren't. And those of us in the areas where they aren't either have to do something ourselves or give up on the whole thing.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

In the end we had to ask what would help us build our faith and that of our children, and what was becoming pure joyless duty and driving the kids insane with boredom. Fortunately we have found a home in exactly the sort of FE setup that a lot of people on here see fit to deny the value of. For us it's a godsend.

It'd be wonderful if all the parish churches did as you are describing, but they don't, and people like me can't force them to either.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My ecumenical wanderings haven't yielded much in the way of evangelical Anglicanism, which suggests that evangelical CofE congregations are concentrated in certain areas and regions and scarce in others. It would be interesting to see some sort of table or graph that highlighted the national hotspots. Maybe there's a glut of such churches in the South East?

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

In the end we had to ask what would help us build our faith and that of our children, and what was becoming pure joyless duty and driving the kids insane with boredom. Fortunately we have found a home in exactly the sort of FE setup that a lot of people on here see fit to deny the value of. For us it's a godsend.

It'd be wonderful if all the parish churches did as you are describing, but they don't, and people like me can't force them to either.

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I've not come across anyone in this thread denying the value of FE or New Ways of Being Church. There's been plenty of questioning on how far some of them are fresh, new or even Church.

I don't quite see how your first statement stacks up. If your original (home?) parish is doing an excellent job of the cure of souls for all, that is exactly what it means. In what way are you excluded? (in which case it isn't for all) or have you excluded yourself (in which case, prayers and good luck to you, but it that really their fault?)

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plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Edward Green

I'm interested in your experience of FE. One criticism I've heard is that it tends to be very middle class. Would you agree?

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General concerns that the CofE is becoming overwhelmingly charismatic/ evangelical are perhaps also influenced by class and geography ... Maybe there's a glut of such churches in the South East?

Talking of traditions, I did have an article about cell groups in the sacramental/liturgical tradition. Perhaps this represents the future for Anglicanism of this type?

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Originally posted by AberVicar:
Living and working now for some years in a context that is emphatically not middle class has made me very sceptical about church-growth and parish renewal initiatives that come from the leafy suburbs. Come to think of it, they all do.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

It's hard to pin down exactly what's irritating me on this thread, but there seems to be a quite negative vibe and some of it seems to derive from ignorance about what FE in particular is.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Funnily enough, I'd very much agree with your last point, as being far from un-churched myself. We were getting very close to de-churched, however.

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Originally posted by AberVicar:
Well without wishing to stray very far in to All Saints territory, you were very scratchy earlier on, and said so. Perhaps you are bringing your own frustration to the argument instead of letting it develop its own momentum.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if any of the contributors here denied the value of a fellowship in which you and your family have been able to build your relationship with God. As far as I can see, there has been some real effort to look at what FE ought to be offering in order to make a lasting difference, and there has been some concern that people can get so caught up in FE that they throw out the old stuff where it is still working.

In my patch, I have inherited five church buildings, one of which is home to a still thriving very traditional pattern of Church life. One died as a church years ago, and despite the pain caused in the local community we have been able to close it. My challenge (yes i know it's our challenge, but it's a leadership issue too) is to establish an FE in the outlying areas near the closed church which will not either replicate what has already clearly failed, or replicate what others in the area are already doing. It must be able to sustain the Cure of Souls, so open to all, and needs to be sustainable in its own context.

This is a big ask. Thank God it's in God's hands and not just in ours!

BTW - this is what the 'building bridges' is all about...

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Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Church can get moribund very quickly and I am surprised to see a very strong glass ceiling in UK churches. Even the very ''successful'' ones can't seem to break into real church growth and this lack of growth is not just in the traditional sector but in the house church/charismatic movement too.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Funnily enough, I'd very much agree with your last point, as being far from un-churched myself. We were getting very close to de-churched, however.

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Personally I have no hesitation in arguing that meetings in home during the week should have a higher priority that the Sunday gathering;

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Personally I have no hesitation in arguing that meetings in home during the week should have a higher priority that the Sunday gathering;

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For what purpose? I'm asking because these are totally alien to my experience. And I think I'm relieved about that-- and not just for the time commitment, because I speak as someone who attended or officiate at daily evening prayer for several years and wish there were an opportunity to do it again. I'm impressed by the commmitment and dedication of those who do this sort of thing, but how can it be required, and by the same people who probably diss the Catholics for speaking of "mass obligation"...?

What goes on in these cell meetings? One hears horror stories about how they can be thinly disgused brainwashing sessions done by lay leaders in a strict hierarchy leading up to the head honcho. It would take something like that, I'd think, to cause people to leave the church as walking wounded and spend years after as "recovering Christians," of which there are millions. Assuming that the proceedings are more benign than that, what are they?

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can see the point Ramarius is making but I feel uncomfortable with the terminology. A 'cell' is where they look you away ...

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Alogon, in many, if not most evangelical settings the small, mid-week group meetings are where the instruction, teaching and catechesis takes place. Sometimes well, sometimes badly, sometimes indifferently.

At best, I think it can serve a useful purpose for many people - and Enders Shadow clearly feels that they should be a priority as far as he is concerned. The problem is, I suspect he'd expect it to be become a priority for everyone else as well. He often appears very critical and rather dismissive of churches that don't go in for that sort of thing.

In some ways, these groups play a similar role to that of the 'spiritual director' in more Catholic or sacramental circles. And I'm sure there are both good and bad examples of those.

My brother-in-law and other strong, but increasingly broader, evangelicals still value groups of this kind very highly. I don't, although I would have done at one time.

I can't really see why they should take priority though. Mind you, if you have a very low approach to the sacraments then it's probably inevitable - nature abhors a vacuum - that you're going to find some alternative and sacralise that. In some circles they appear to have 'sacralised' the mid-week meetings in the same way as they have 'sacralised' the so-called 'worship time' (as if the whole thing isn't a worship time).

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Interestingly I have found myself missing small groups which are as you say, a large part of evangelical church culture.

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can see the point Ramarius is making but I feel uncomfortable with the terminology. A 'cell' is where they look you away ...

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It is also the basic building block of a large living organism, AKA the Body of Christ, as someone wrote above that the church should be.
So I can understand why the term would be used if one believes in an important role for such small groups.

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