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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Liberation
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Call me uninformed, but when the Hamas leader speaks about 'when the whole Palestine is liberated.'
When he is says 'today is Gaza, tomorrow is Jerusalem and Haifa', what exactly does he mean?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Call me uninformed, but when the Hamas leader speaks about 'when the whole Palestine is liberated.'
When he is says 'today is Gaza, tomorrow is Jerusalem and Haifa', what exactly does he mean?
He means that the whole of what is now Israel will be under his rule, and the Jews have all been driven into the Mediterranean or worse. He probably envisages much the same fate for several other groups, Christian Arabs, Druses, the present administration in Ramallah etc.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Call me uninformed, but when the Hamas leader speaks about 'when the whole Palestine is liberated.'
When he is says 'today is Gaza, tomorrow is Jerusalem and Haifa', what exactly does he mean?
He means that the whole of what is now Israel will be under his rule, and the Jews have all been driven into the Mediterranean or worse. He probably envisages much the same fate for several other groups, Christian Arabs, Druses, the present administration in Ramallah etc.
Odd, I thought it would be rather different, namely that the Arabs who had left their homes in Haifa, Jerusalem and elsewhere in Israel, back around 1947-1948, some at bayonet point, could get them back.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
So you would deny Israel's right to exist and the Jews the right to possess their ancient homeland?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I could equally say, Mudfrog, "So you'd support the right of people to force people out of the lands their families have lived in for generations because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago?"
Would you mind being chucked out of your house because the Welsh suddenly get uppity and point out that they were there before the rotten Anglo-Saxons pushed them out (yes, I know, I'm using the traditional, probably false, model to make a point)
To me, Israel has a right to exist because it has done so for over 50 years and therefore there are many people who consider themselves Israeli and have no other home, and it would be wrong to chuck them out. Similarly, it was wrong to chuck the Arabs out and continues to be wrong to push the Palestinians around within Palestine.
I do not believe any group has a right to take over someone else's country because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, no.
[ 09. December 2012, 20:22: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
No group took over - were they not given the land by common consent of the UN? The internationally agreed plan was that there was to be a Jewish state, an Arab state and an internationally controlled Jerusalem. The Jews accepted it but the Arabs didn't and the Arabs started to attack the Jews.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No group took over - were they not given the land by common consent of the UN? The internationally agreed plan was that there was to be a Jewish state, an Arab state and an internationally controlled Jerusalem. The Jews accepted it but the Arabs didn't and the Arabs started to attack the Jews.
In the OP you state you are "uninformed". Now you seem pretty sure of yourself. If we had some idea what you know about the state of Israel and its foundation we could have a meaningful debate, though we would be unlikely to reach a conclusion as it has been a troubled place since at least the time Moses' people crossed the Jordan.
FWIW, I reckon the modern state of Israel was formed in haste, against the background of The Holocaust, with little thought for the then inhabitants of any ethnicity or religion.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you would deny Israel's right to exist and the Jews the right to possess their ancient homeland?
Don't you think it's dangerous to say that people who have not had that "homeland" for two millennia are the ones with the "right to exist," while the people who have lived there for those thousands of years have no rights. Out of interest, if this principle were applied to England, how might that upset the social order?
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Unless everyone , Israeli & Palestinian can sit down and agree how to share tha sliver of land peace will never happen. And do I hope my pesimession is wrong . Pray for the peace oof Jerusalem ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
This joke goes back a long way:
John Kennedy, Nikita Krushchev and Golda Meir have a chance to have a conference with God.
Kennedy asked, "Will there ever be peace between whites and blacks in the US?" God answered, "Yes, but not in your life time."
Krushchev then asked, "Will there ever be peace between Russia and the United States?" God answered, "Yes, but not in your life time."
Meir then asked, "Will there ever be peace between Israel and (the Palestinians)?" God answered, "Not in my life time."
Enoch, I will have to disagree with you about the Palestinian Authority wanting to drive Christian Arabs and Druze into the sea along with the Isrealis. The Druze and Arab Christians have long been a part of Palestine. 17% of Palestinians are Christian, even 8% of Palestinians are Jewish. Yes, 75% are Muslim. But Muslims would say as religions of The Word, the right of Christians and Druze should be respected. (They just cannot evangelize).
What the Palestinian Authority wants is that the land be liberated from the Israelis and be returned to the "original" Palestinian owners or their families. They would want all the Jews who have immigrated to the area to return where they came from, but they do not want to throw out the Christians or Druze who were already there.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No group took over - were they not given the land by common consent of the UN?
"Common consent" included the people who actually LIVED THERE? Perhaps not?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I do not believe any group has a right to take over someone else's country because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, no.
This. The formation of Israel in 1948 was a terrible tragedy, but it's too late now to take it back.
[ 10. December 2012, 03:18: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Don't you think it's dangerous to say that people who have not had that "homeland" for two millennia are the ones with the "right to exist," while the people who have lived there for those thousands of years have no rights.
What is dangerous is to frivolously toss around the concept of the “right to exist”.
The Palestine/Israel issue is a classic illustration of Hegel’s definition of tragedy as the clash between right and right.
The Jews are entitled to a secure home in a land to which they have more title than any other piece of real estate on earth, and where the state of Israel has existed for sixty-four years.
The Palestinians are justifiedly aggrieved that they lost their land and their homes.
It is to be hoped that eventually some sort of viable two-state solution will be implemented.
In the mean time, “right to exist” for Palestinians means no more than the present lack of an independent nation, but for Jews it is infinitely more serious, because they have known an attempt to literally end their existence as a people, and there are elements in organizations such as Hamas which are virulently anti-Semitic, Holocaust denialist, and opposed to any two-state solution involving any form of Jewish state.
It is wrong for Western dispensationalists to ignore the grievances of the Palestinians and the heavy-handedness of some Israeli policies, but it is also wrong for Westerners in safe, secure countries to pontificate to Israelis to whom a “right to exist” as a people, and as a tiny, beleagured, vulnerable country, is starkly real in ways which most of us can barely conceive of.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No group took over - were they not given the land by common consent of the UN? The internationally agreed plan was that there was to be a Jewish state, an Arab state and an internationally controlled Jerusalem. The Jews accepted it but the Arabs didn't and the Arabs started to attack the Jews.
It may have been a consent common to many, but surprisingly, not that of the people actually living on the land.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I would think some Native Americans/First Nations people would love to see their land liberated.
But, fact is, many people have been displaced from lands by other invading nations. I can imagine the Celts would have loved to see the Anglo Saxons forced off their land and the Anglo Saxons would have loved to seen the Normans return to where they came too.
The Semitic sense of justice is much different from the Western Sense of Justice. There is a definite problem with two peoples claim legitimate rights to the same land.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Enoch, I will have to disagree with you about the Palestinian Authority wanting to drive Christian Arabs and Druze into the sea along with the Isrealis. The Druze and Arab Christians have long been a part of Palestine. 17% of Palestinians are Christian, even 8% of Palestinians are Jewish. Yes, 75% are Muslim. But Muslims would say as religions of The Word, the right of Christians and Druze should be respected. (They just cannot evangelize).
What the Palestinian Authority wants is that the land be liberated from the Israelis and be returned to the "original" Palestinian owners or their families. They would want all the Jews who have immigrated to the area to return where they came from, but they do not want to throw out the Christians or Druze who were already there.
Two replies.
First, the question isn't about the official Palestinian Authority position. It's about the leader of Hamas. Hamas does appear to regard everyone who does not unconditionally side with them as their enemy.
Second, even your answer acknowledges that the Palestinian aspiration is a Judenfrei Israel. As long as that is the case, there can be no peace between the two sides - and there is no point in discussing the subject.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No group took over - were they not given the land by common consent of the UN?
So if the UN and the American government decide to remove you from your house and farm and country and send you somewhere else that's fine by you just because its official?
And why start a thread with a fake question and then give your own inevitable answer? Why not say what you think straight out? Are you ashamed of your opinions on the subject, worried that no-one will pay attention if you stated them clearly?
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
First, the question isn't about the official Palestinian Authority position. It's about the leader of Hamas. Hamas does appear to regard everyone who does not unconditionally side with them as their enemy.
Second, even your answer acknowledges that the Palestinian aspiration is a Judenfrei Israel. As long as that is the case, there can be no peace between the two sides - and there is no point in discussing the subject.
First, that's exactly why the government of Israel (and everyone else interested) needs to talk to Hamas, and to other Palestinians about Hamas, instead of just posturing and eery now and again killing a few.
Second, now you are confusing Hamas with all Palestinians, just as you warned about in the previous paragraph.
[ 10. December 2012, 08:52: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
were they not given the land by common consent of the UN?...The Jews accepted it but the Arabs didn't
Looks like you've answered your own question there. That's not common consent Mudfrog. That's the dictat of a foreign body, and one group of inhabitants taking over against the wishes of the majority inhabitants.
That's why consent of the inhabitants is so important in questions of legitimacy and statehood. The UN made a terrible error in acting like an old colonial power - dictating, shifting borders and drawing lines on a map from thousands of miles away without taking any notice of the actual inhabitants.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
This may or may not be a tangent. In discussion yesterday with a proponent of the Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem an organization that has done humanitarian work not only in Jerusalem but throughout the Middle East. She was pressing the argument about the mistreatment and brutal subjugation of the Palestinians by Israel.
I came to the thought that of the two entities, the most intransigent was the Palestinian/Hamas who have vowed to wipe Israel off the map. Israel has, many times, agreed to softer positions than harsh. How do you get an change in Palestine to reject their "off the map" stance? I don't think it will be to pressure Israel.
In South Africa an intransigent government policy of apartheid was changed by applying pressure on that government in tangible but more importantly in framing their position as morally wrong.
Why is there no public pressure on the Palestinians/Hamas as morally wrong from the world community? Could the Arab states be persuaded to do this?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
That map has been recycled a series of times. It is a political statement, not factual. Here's two for starters.
The west bank was occupied by Jordan until 1967, Israel invaded after attacked. It was never independent or no occupied.
The map also needs to show the lands that were Palestine before Trans-Jordan was partitioned from what it called Palestine today.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Holy Shit. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Is that map for real Josephine? Source please?
[ x-posted with no prophet ]
[ 10. December 2012, 14:01: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No group took over - were they not given the land by common consent of the UN?
"Common consent" included the people who actually LIVED THERE? Perhaps not?
For the record the shape of Israel as in the UN plan was so odd because it was cut to be majority Jewish. Gerrymandering rather than non-consent. (And that they hadn't been there for very long is another story).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you would deny Israel's right to exist and the Jews the right to possess their ancient homeland?
What about the Cherokee?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
What about the Cherokee? [/QUOTE]
What about the Cherokee? They had nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian religion which has driven the rise of modern Europe and arguably the modern western world.
Israel is important. The Jews are important. The Cherokee – nice as I’m sure they are – just don’t have the same geo-political importance that Israel does to the Western world.
If you want to start a thread about red Indians I’m sure you will get plenty of responses.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
red Indians
Probably you don't know this given your location. But this is not an appropriate term today and would certainly get you told off or much worse if you used it here. I understand what you mean.
The comparison is actually valid. There have been attempts to compare the Palestinians to North American Indians and Pacific Islanders before. I think there are some problems with the comparison, but one point is quite clear. We have a large of number of First Nations in Canada. Not every nation qualifies to be a national country. Does the Palestinian nation qualify to be a country? Good question.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
red Indians
Probably you don't know this given your location. But this is not an appropriate term today and would certainly get you told off or much worse if you used it here.
It is well known in the UK that "red Indians" is not an acceptable term. I haven't heard anyone use it for years.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Holy Shit.
Is that map for real Josephine? Source please?
Its arguably sort-of accurate. As others said, East Jerusalem and most ofthe West Bank were administered by Jordan in the 50s & 60s, there was no autonomous Palestinian government, though it was in a sense Palestinian land. At least they were allowed to live there. And the fourth map is taking the most pessimistic view of the expansion of Israeli settlements. Though the government of Israel is showing no sign that that view is going to turn out to be wrong. The most recent land grab - the one that even the British and American governments formally objected to - completely encircles Jerusalem and joins it to Jericho - so the only between Bethelehm and Ramah, six miles apart, is through Israeli military-occupied territories on the Dead Sea. (As well as their own settlements, the Israelis also restrict Palestinian access to the Dead Sea, the Jordan, and to the borders with Egypt, Joprdan, and Syria)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
What about the Cherokee?
What about the Cherokee? They had nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian religion which has driven the rise of modern Europe and arguably the modern western world.
Israel is important. The Jews are important. The Cherokee – nice as I’m sure they are – just don’t have the same geo-political importance that Israel does to the Western world.
If you want to start a thread about red Indians I’m sure you will get plenty of responses.
You seem to have the Judeo Christian religion confused with the Roman Empire.
ETA: fixed code.
[ 10. December 2012, 16:47: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It is wrong for Western dispensationalists to ignore the grievances of the Palestinians and the heavy-handedness of some Israeli policies, but it is also wrong for Westerners in safe, secure countries to pontificate to Israelis to whom a “right to exist” as a people, and as a tiny, beleagured, vulnerable country, is starkly real in ways which most of us can barely conceive of.
What makes this complete BS is that Israel, left to its own devices, would have ceased to exist years ago. It is the US that has maintained its existence. We in the US must determine whether or not it is appropriate for us to continue to do so.
If you truly believe that we should stay out of it, then you are of the view that Israel should cease to exist. If, OTOH, you believe that we should continue to prop up an artificial state, then it is precisely "Westerners in safe, secure countries" who will "pontificate" on Israel's right to exist.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
What makes this complete BS is that Israel, left to its own devices, would have ceased to exist years ago.
And what would have become of the Jews in the Israel that ceased-to-be, Tom?
If it’s an “artificial state”, how come I read about it in the Bible daily?
That is not something you can ignore or sweep under the carpet. In any case, the Jewish lobby is – thankfully – pretty powerful in the US, so it’s fairly moot. Israel is here to stay.
Any peace will be on Israel’s terms, whether you, me, the Palestinians or the UN likes it or not. Any accommodation will be at the sufferance of Israel. If they decide to grant peace then it will happen, and if the deal isn’t acceptable to her then it won’t. To pretend otherwise is naïve.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I can read about any number of countries that have disappeared in books over a thousand years old. I don't really think that proves anything. If I shipped all the Romani back to India and declared a nation state for them I doubt that would work terribly well either.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
If it’s an “artificial state”, how come I read about it in the Bible daily?
You are seriously not conflating the ancient nation of Israel with the present day State of Israel?
They are two different realities. The ancient Kingdom of Israel was a theocratic monarchy with a national sacrificial cult and strict purity laws. The secular State of Israel is a democratic modern, state which had constitutional freedoms and modern western jurisprudence.
To use an analogy, that would be like saying that the present day UK is the same as Anglo-saxon Britannia.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The secular State of Israel is a democratic modern, state which had constitutional freedoms and modern western jurisprudence.
And is less than 70 years old.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I can read about any number of countries that have disappeared in books over a thousand years old. I don't really think that proves anything. If I shipped all the Romani back to India and declared a nation state for them I doubt that would work terribly well either.
That's an old argument and as specious now as it was when it was first used.
Find me a few million Romani agitating for their own nation state back in India and I’ll listen.
Israel existed in the Levant region until the diaspora in the 1st Century AD. The Jews were scattered, but the concept of Israel never went away. Is there an equivalent concept for your Romani? Are they pining as a nation to return home? Where is that home?
It isn’t a question you can duck I’m afraid. Some of us believe that Israel pre-dates Palestine and that’s when the clock should start running from, not 1948, or 636 AD.
I’d like to see peace as much as anyone, but it must be acceptable to Israel, because if it isn’t there can be no peace.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
If you read Samuel to Kings, it's arguable that the entire establishment of a Jewish nation state was a mistake to begin with, one that God only allowed begrudgingly.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If you read Samuel to Kings, it's arguable that the entire establishment of a Jewish nation state was a mistake to begin with, one that God only allowed begrudgingly.
And yet it did, so never mind.
It is the land where Christ was born, lived, minstered and died, and it isn't going to be swept away again because some people don't like it. Israel is back, and the Jews are back.
My question hasn't been answered. What will happen to the Jews if Israel ceases to exist?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I find the idea that the Israelis have been more willing to give way than the Palestinians a laughable one. Palestinians have, on a number of occasions, agreed to give up any claim to their historic lands in what is now Israel, and have simply wanted to keep those lands that were Palestinian in 1967. They've even been prepared to concede some of the settlements developed since then. Israel, meanwhile, has continued to pursue colonial policies and a significant faction, including members of the current government, favour "greater Israel" covering all the territory of Biblical Israel. A significant chunk of the Israeli population support removing the Palestinian population to make this happen (i.e. ethnic cleansing).
EDIT: I'm pretty sure Jesus ministered in the Roman province of Judea, not the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Not that it is in any way relevant to a modern state that most Orthodox Jews think is not that country.
[ 10. December 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If you read Samuel to Kings, it's arguable that the entire establishment of a Jewish nation state was a mistake to begin with, one that God only allowed begrudgingly.
And yet it did, so never mind.
It is the land where Christ was born, lived, minstered and died, and it isn't going to be swept away again because some people don't like it. Israel is back, and the Jews are back.
My question hasn't been answered. What will happen to the Jews if Israel ceases to exist?
Which Jews?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Well let's start with those in Israel right now.
What will happen to them if Israel ceases to exist?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well let's start with those in Israel right now.
What will happen to them if Israel ceases to exist?
I would hope they would be equal citizens alongside the Palestinians in a single, secular state guaranteeing the rights of both.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If you read Samuel to Kings, it's arguable that the entire establishment of a Jewish nation state was a mistake to begin with, one that God only allowed begrudgingly.
And yet it did, so never mind.
It is the land where Christ was born, lived, minstered and died, and it isn't going to be swept away again because some people don't like it. Israel is back, and the Jews are back.
My question hasn't been answered. What will happen to the Jews if Israel ceases to exist?
Probably nothing if you are talking about Jews living outside Israel.
In terms of Israel itself, if you mean that it ceases to exist as a Jewish state, then I suppose Jews will have to adapt to living in a multi-ethnic state and seeing Arabs and other people as equal, fellow citizens. Which is exactly the same thing as what they do in the UK and other countries.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It would be a bit like Northern Ireland - rumblings would continue on and off,, but overall violence would eventually reduce.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
It'd depend on how this hypothetical settlement worked out.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
I came to the thought that of the two entities, the most intransigent was the Palestinian/Hamas who have vowed to wipe Israel off the map. Israel has, many times, agreed to softer positions than harsh. How do you get an change in Palestine to reject their "off the map" stance? I don't think it will be to pressure Israel.
It is indeed intransigent and harmful of Hamas to be so opposed to Israel's basic right to exist. Equally intransigent and harmful though is Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine's basic right to exist as a self-governing, unoccupied state. Many pro-Israeli commentators laugh at the very notion of Palestine, considering it nothing more than a myth, as though before the Jews arrived it was just a blank space. Just a jaw-droppingly arrogant attitude. Witness Israel's over-the-top hostility to even such a minor non-event as the UN changing Palestine from a 'non-member observing entity' to a 'non-member observing state'.
When two people refuse to even accept the other one exists, it is very hard to have a conversation, let alone agree anything.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Any peace will be on Israel’s terms, whether you, me, the Palestinians or the UN likes it or not. Any accommodation will be at the sufferance of Israel. If they decide to grant peace then it will happen, and if the deal isn’t acceptable to her then it won’t. To pretend otherwise is naïve.
Only while Israel continues to dominate militarily. As soon as the Palestinians get the upper hand, and surely, as with any occupying force, it's only a matter of time, the peace will decidedly not be on their terms. It's in Israel's interests to make concessions to create a viable peace while they still hold all the trump cards.
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
If you truly believe that we should stay out of it
I don't want Westerners to "stay out of it".
I want them to support Israel's right to exist.
We are entitled to point out what we see as any lack of wisdom or justice in Israel's policies, and encourage progress toward possible solutions such as separate Israeli and Palestinian states.
What we are not entitled to do is sit back in safety at a comfortable distance and make moralistic demands on Israel which might look brilliant to us, but which might appear very different to Israelis who live constantly on the brink of oblivion.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
How much existence are they entitled to?
ETA: A bit of tact.
[ 11. December 2012, 01:49: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I can read about any number of countries that have disappeared in books over a thousand years old. I don't really think that proves anything. If I shipped all the Romani back to India and declared a nation state for them I doubt that would work terribly well either.
That's an old argument and as specious now as it was when it was first used.
Find me a few million Romani agitating for their own nation state back in India and I’ll listen.
I can find you a few million Greeks that want Constantinopolis back. Do they "have enough to do with the Judeo-Christian religion which has driven the rise of modern Europe and arguably the modern western world?"
And as for the 'geopolitical importance' of Israel... well, we lasted two millennium without an Israeli state, how important could it be?
Why can't you guys just admit that you want Israel to exist because of a (misplaced) religious belief that they are more important that everyone? Why can't you just admit that you think the life of a Jew is worth more than the life of a Palestinian?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Israel existed in the Levant region until the diaspora in the 1st Century AD. The Jews were scattered, but the concept of Israel never went away. Is there an equivalent concept for your Romani? Are they pining as a nation to return home? Where is that home?
Who gives a fuck if they were pining? How does pining give them a right to scrape other people off their land and subjugate them and treat them like dogs? Pining doesn't create rightness.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well let's start with those in Israel right now.
What will happen to them if Israel ceases to exist?
I would hope they would be equal citizens alongside the Palestinians in a single, secular state guaranteeing the rights of both.
If you can believe that, you can believe anything.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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