Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Liberation
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I believe it would take a long time to achieve that, but that it is not impossible.
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet: quote: Originally posted by deano: Well let's start with those in Israel right now.
What will happen to them if Israel ceases to exist?
I would hope they would be equal citizens alongside the Palestinians in a single, secular state guaranteeing the rights of both.
Funny! Because that has been the experience of Jews down the ages hasn’t it.
No seriously, what do you think will happen to them. In real life this time.
-------------------- "The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It's not what the Muslims want.
THIS
A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
They don't want it now - they want an entirely Muslim Middle East (apart from wanting an entirely Muslim world!).
If Islam gets hold of Israel there will be a massacre. The whole thing is anti-Semitism writ large.
The church is, once again, displaying the antisemitism it displayed since the second and third centuries. Israel must be suported - they, with us, are the people of YHWH and it is a disgrace that Christians do not stand with Israel.
That doesn't mean we have to agree with their policies, but our default position should be solidarity with them.
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Mudfrog - what future does your ideal solution offer the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank?
Just asking - seriously.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: It's not what the Muslims want.
THIS
A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
They don't want it now - they want an entirely Muslim Middle East (apart from wanting an entirely Muslim world!).
If Islam gets hold of Israel there will be a massacre. The whole thing is anti-Semitism writ large.
The church is, once again, displaying the antisemitism it displayed since the second and third centuries. Israel must be suported - they, with us, are the people of YHWH and it is a disgrace that Christians do not stand with Israel.
That doesn't mean we have to agree with their policies, but our default position should be solidarity with them.
Firstly, I'm not really sure why Muslims wanting a Muslim world is such a big deal - as a Christian I would like a Christian world.
Secondly, there are plenty of Muslim Israelis so what do you mean by Islam 'getting a hold of' Israel? As for anti-Semitism, Palestinians are Semites too! Saying that a) Palestinians deserve a safe homeland of their own and b) saying that Israel has behaved badly towards Palestinians is not anti-Semitism any more than saying that Pakistan has treated Christians badly is Islamophobia. Palestinians being forced from their homes to make way for Americans who have a country of their own is something Christians should be in favour of, really? My opposition to modern Israel (again, no relation to the Biblical Israel) is based purely on their behaviour as a country and has nothing to do with Israel being a mostly Jewish nation (not entirely, don't pretend Israel is some kind of Jewish haven - gay rights for example are on par with secular countries).
If Christians are supposed to defend Israel so much, why does Israel deny rights to Christians and Messianic Jews? Why do American Orthodox Jews have more rights than Israeli Messianic Jews?
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Seriously? You think a Muslim world would be just as desirable as a Christian world? You want the whole world to look and behave like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Egypt?
Also I write about Islam taking over, not Muslims. Most Muslims would want an Islamic caliphate but I am talking about Islamic law not individual Muslims.
-------------------- "The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
No, I said as a Christian I would want a Christian world - I'm just pointing out that Muslims desiring a Muslim world is quite a natural part of being a Muslim.
Islam isn't some big bogeyman that somehow operates without individual Muslims behind it - it takes Muslim theologians, imams etc to enact Islamic law, which in turn requires shifts in thinking in particular strands of Islamic theology. Islam is not a single homogenous system, it cannot function without individual Muslims just as Christianity cannot function without individual Christians. Comparing an Islamic world to individual mostly-Muslim nations is like comparing a Christian world to Vatican City.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
Damn straight. If the UN offered to split England and give half of it as a homeland for a minority group of people who've recently immigrated here I'd reject it as well.
It's like someone breaking into your home and offering to cut only one of your legs off, rather than both. And then claiming in court that you rejected his offer and tried to fight him off, so that meant he was perfectly justified in cutting both your legs off and your arms as well.
And the court agreeing.
Why the hell do you think the Palestinians should have accepted such an outrageous 'offer'?
-------------------- “We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: It's not what the Muslims want.
THIS
A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
They don't want it now - they want an entirely Muslim Middle East (apart from wanting an entirely Muslim world!).
If Islam gets hold of Israel there will be a massacre. The whole thing is anti-Semitism writ large.
The church is, once again, displaying the antisemitism it displayed since the second and third centuries. Israel must be suported - they, with us, are the people of YHWH and it is a disgrace that Christians do not stand with Israel.
That doesn't mean we have to agree with their policies, but our default position should be solidarity with them.
Why shouldn't we be in solidarity with our Palestinian Christian brothers and sisters?
After all, they are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, are they not?
-------------------- It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ruudy: quote: Originally posted by Josephine: This map might help folks understand the way Palestinians react.
And this map may help people understand the way the Israelis react UAE airline Etihad erases Israel from the map.
Their map doesn't include South Sudan either. Or Lichenstein, Andora, Puerto Rico, or Trinidad and Tobago. It doesn't show the Solomon Islands, which is a larger country than Israel.
Israel is marked on the map, with it's borders. But it just isn't labelled. Neither is the West Bank or Gaza, though their areas are just as defined as Israel's.
However, since Etihad doesn't have any flights to Israel, (or any of the countries I've mentioned above) and it is very small, in a very crowded area, perhaps it's not that surprising the mapmakers didn't bother to label it.
-------------------- “We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: Israel must be suported - they, with us, are the people of YHWH and it is a disgrace that Christians do not stand with Israel.
1) "Israel" is a country, so there is no "they" about it. Also, there's no necessary link between "Israel" and "Jews". If you mean "Jews" at least have the nous to say so.
2) Muslims are also followers of the God of Abraham.
3) If there's any value in the sort of link or alliance between religions you're trying to encourage, then surely Muslims are closer to Christians than Jews given that they also recognise Jesus as the Messiah. OK, they don't recognise Him as God - but Jews don't recognise Him at all.
4) Given all that, and also your "they want to make the whole world Muslim" rhetoric, it's hard not to conclude that your "we must support Israel" stance owes more to Islamophobia than anything else.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hawk: quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
Damn straight. If the UN offered to split England and give half of it as a homeland for a minority group of people who've recently immigrated here I'd reject it as well.
It's like someone breaking into your home and offering to cut only one of your legs off, rather than both. And then claiming in court that you rejected his offer and tried to fight him off, so that meant he was perfectly justified in cutting both your legs off and your arms as well.
And the court agreeing.
Why the hell do you think the Palestinians should have accepted such an outrageous 'offer'?
Don't you think that the partition of Ireland is a better comparison than this convoluted parallel? Two populations, each of which deem the other to be less authentic to the place, unable to get on with each other, and partitioned by an external authority?
Eventually, the two sides realized that rehashing the past just made for more funerals, and that they had to look to the future. Having spent my university years in Ireland, I was certain that this would never happen, that the desire for turmoil and absolute victory was so strong, but I was wrong.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
So did the Israelis.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: Why shouldn't we be in solidarity with our Palestinian Christian brothers and sisters?
After all, they are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, are they not?
Yes, all ten of them. Oop’s no, nine. One has just been killed by an Islamic Fundamentalist.
quote: Originally posted by Jade Constable: My opposition to modern Israel (again, no relation to the Biblical Israel) is based purely on their behaviour as a country and has nothing to do with Israel being a mostly Jewish nation (not entirely, don't pretend Israel is some kind of Jewish haven - gay rights for example are on par with secular countries).
So you wouldn’t have a problem with Israel existing if they were a little nicer?
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: 2) Muslims are also followers of the God of Abraham.
Yes, but then there is a pretty significant swing away. That’s the elephant in the room, Muslims believe their interpretation of what God wanted is right, and the Jews and Christians believe their interpretation is right. These days, however it seem as though the Islamic interpretation is being shouted out the loudest, and being defended by those who have the other interpretation.
In the end, it comes down to which one you choose. Me, I’m of the Judeo-Christian persuasion, so I think Israel should be a Jewish state. Muslims should be welcome to live there, but not to turn it into a Muslim state.
-------------------- "The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: Why shouldn't we be in solidarity with our Palestinian Christian brothers and sisters?
After all, they are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, are they not?
Yes, all ten of them. Oop’s no, nine. One has just been killed by an Islamic Fundamentalist.
Educated yourself
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: 2) Muslims are also followers of the God of Abraham.
Yes, but then there is a pretty significant swing away. That’s the elephant in the room, Muslims believe their interpretation of what God wanted is right, and the Jews and Christians believe their interpretation is right.
You've got that a bit wrong. Muslims, Christians and Jews all believe that their interpretation is right. There's no theological reason to lump Christians and Jews in together as you do.
quote: In the end, it comes down to which one you choose. Me, I’m of the Judeo-Christian persuasion, so I think Israel should be a Jewish state. Muslims should be welcome to live there, but not to turn it into a Muslim state.
Surely as a Christian your preference should be for all states to be Christian? Saying another country should have a state religion that's not Christianity (or no state religion at all) is perfectly fine, of course, but I'm not sure what part of Christianity requires you to decide that that other religion should be Judaism rather than Islam.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut: Don't you think that the partition of Ireland is a better comparison than this convoluted parallel?
Perhaps, but the situation in 1949 was different in important ways. The Jews were largely recent immigrants then, arriving from the late 19th century in small numbers and increasing throughout the early 20th (although there was a very small population of natives). In 1914 the Jews made up 7% of the population of the total territory of Palestine and Israel combined, which increased to 16% in 1931, 29% in 1941 and lept to fully 50% by 1950, after the 1949 war (including the ethnic cleansing and dislocation of the Arab populace into permanent refugee camps). The Jews were purposefully emigrating in order to increase their demographics so they could justify their takeover of the land - it was their stated aim at the time. The native inhabitants were angry at this projected takeover of their land (justifiably I think) and even angrier when this recent immigrant group were awarded the rule of a large portion of the land by foreign dictat rather than the native Arabs who had lived there for generations.
What is interesting is that although it is true that pre-1949 Jews purchased the land legally, this still caused justifiable anger from the inhabitants. Look at the case of the Jezreel Valley, a place that travellers in the 19th century described as the richest land on earth. It was owned however by absentee landlords such as the Sursock family (who bought the land from the Ottoman government in 1870), and the 8000 Arabs who lived there were legally only tenant farmers, though they had lived there for generations. The American Zion Commonwealth, a Jewish settlement corporation, approached the Sursock family and bought large tracts of the land from them, before sending the police in to forcibly expel the inhabitants so Jewish settlers could take habitation of the farmland for themselves. The Arab farmers who once lived in this beautiful and fertile valley were forced to move to the coast in search of work and ended up in shanty towns. This caused widespread riots from the disposessed Arab farmers in 1929.
The trouble is, this is still going on, Pro-Jewish agencies using the letter of the law to dispossess Arabs from their homes and farms in order to give the land to Jewish settlers. This isn't the distant past that needs to be forgotten and forgiven, this is still happening right now. No wonder there's no peace.
-------------------- “We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: The church is, once again, displaying the antisemitism it displayed since the second and third centuries.
Maybe in Britain. The majority of American Protestants are pro-Israel.
AND being against Zionism is not the same thing as being anti-semitic. That is the Grand Lie of Zionism. Unless you think the anti-Zionist groups of Rabbis are self-hating? You just go ahead and tell them that. I'd say that is a smug and paternalistic attitude, however.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hawk: What is interesting is that although it is true that pre-1949 Jews purchased the land legally, this still caused justifiable anger from the inhabitants. Look at the case of the Jezreel Valley, a place that travellers in the 19th century described as the richest land on earth. It was owned however by absentee landlords such as the Sursock family (who bought the land from the Ottoman government in 1870), and the 8000 Arabs who lived there were legally only tenant farmers, though they had lived there for generations.
It needs also to be said that the reason the Ottoman government "owned" the land is that they purposely increased the taxes until the inhabitants had to sell their land to pay them. Not unreasonably, the inhabitants thought the Ottoman government's "ownership" of their land was bogus, so the selling of that land to absentee landlords, and in turn to Zionist immigrants, was not recognized as valid. "We bought the land fair and square" doesn't hold much truck if you bought it from someone who stole it in the first place.
ETA: What the absentee Christian Zionists cannot or will not see is that the Zionist take-over of the holy land is seen by the inhabitants as the equivalent of a new crusade. A bunch of Europeans coming in and stealing the land from the locals. (Far and away the vast majority of the Zionist settlers at first came from Europe.) That the European "immigrants*" were Jewish instead of Christian, why would that matter?
_____ * "Immigrants" in the same sense that the Viking raiders in the Led Zeppelin song "The Immigrant Song" are "immigrants." [ 11. December 2012, 13:15: Message edited by: mousethief ]
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I rather think, Mudfrog, that this is a rather different and more complex issue than the deleterious anti-Semitism that developed in the early Church and is typified by the Epistle of Barnabas which may have been written to counteract Judaising Christians - but which ended up asserting that the Jews never had any Covenantal rights in the first place ...
Nobody is arguing that the Church hasn't been guilty of dreadful anti-Semitism.
Nor, I think, is anyone suggesting that if militant Hamas-style Palestinians did get the upper-hand there wouldn't be atrocities against the Jews in Israel. I believe there would be.
However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try for some kind of solution and to appeal to moderates on both sides. There are both Jews and Palestinians who would support a two-state solution. It seems the only viable way to go, difficult as it would be to broker and maintain.
Nobody has clean hands on this one. The Jews massacred entire Palestinian villages in 1948. That doesn't make any subsequent Palestinian atrocities acceptable - of course it doesn't.
I really don't get this kind of 'support-Israel-at-all-costs' mentality. What would you have said to the widows of British soldiers tortured and murdered by the Stern Gang and other Jewish terrorists back in the days of the Mandate?
'Oh, don't worry, it was the Jews who carried out these atrocities but it doesn't matter because they're God's chosen people and they have a right to this land ... so it doesn't really matter that they've killed your son/husband/brother ...'
Sure, there are double-standards all ways round. Some people who are very anti-Israel would have been reasonably pro-IRA - or at least the Republican movement to some degree.
Terrorism is terrorism, murder is murder, irrespective of the cause and who perpetrates it.
There have been Jewish murderers and terrorists and there have been Palestinian murderers and terrorists.
Equally, there are voices calling for peace and moderation on all sides.
But we are where we are. I wouldn't want to see Israel over-run by militant Islamists - but neither do I like extreme Zionists that much.
There has to be a more excellent way.
And an over-realised and over-literal eschatology isn't helping IMHO.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hawk: quote: Originally posted by Ruudy: quote: Originally posted by Josephine: This map might help folks understand the way Palestinians react.
And this map may help people understand the way the Israelis react UAE airline Etihad erases Israel from the map.
Their map doesn't include South Sudan either. Or Lichenstein, Andora, Puerto Rico, or Trinidad and Tobago. It doesn't show the Solomon Islands, which is a larger country than Israel.
Israel is marked on the map, with it's borders. But it just isn't labelled. Neither is the West Bank or Gaza, though their areas are just as defined as Israel's.
However, since Etihad doesn't have any flights to Israel, (or any of the countries I've mentioned above) and it is very small, in a very crowded area, perhaps it's not that surprising the mapmakers didn't bother to label it.
Hawk, I went to the Etihad website itself to zoom in on their map and you are correct. Israel is there, but not labeled. Sensationalist reporting. Thanks for pointing it out.
-------------------- The shipmate formerly known as Goar.
Posts: 1360 | From: Gatorland | Registered: Jan 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hawk: quote: Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut: Don't you think that the partition of Ireland is a better comparison than this convoluted parallel?
Perhaps, but the situation in 1949 was different in important ways. The Jews were largely recent immigrants then, arriving from the late 19th century in small numbers and increasing throughout the early 20th (although there was a very small population of natives). *snip*
This isn't the distant past that needs to be forgotten and forgiven, this is still happening right now. No wonder there's no peace.
Indeed, this is so ---the catalogue of wrongs is fairly long and, while specifics are arguable, the general line of mutually-dealt out violence and intransigence is not -- but I am not certain that it disproves my point.
On the basis of on-the-ground observation on my own part, a careful review of historical evidence, and close attention to spokesmen on both sides, I had by the end of my time in Ireland in the 1970s, concluded that the situation was unsolvable, and could never be resolved. I was proven wrong when a number of historical circumstances came into play at a time when both populations realized that their visions could not be realized.
There were ancient wrongs and current ones, just as you have described. They did not find it easy, or comfortable, and those I know in Northern Ireland are still unhappy about much of the resolution. However, they found a common hope and mechanisms by which some of the graver wrongs could be addressed, and are building a future.
We can continue to keep score on the deadly badminton match, totting up one set of wrongs against another and keep track of the death count, and both sides can continue to deny the other its right to exist, or we can take steps in another direction. This will be the most difficult path, but 65 years of mutual attacking has not resolved the problem--- neither side will disappear without unspeakable atrocity, neither side is conquerable, neither vision can be sustained --- it's time to try something else.
Was it here or in another thread where I wondered if Freud was the source of the saw that the definition of insanity was repeating an action with the expectation of different results? [ 11. December 2012, 14:16: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: If you read Samuel to Kings, it's arguable that the entire establishment of a Jewish nation state was a mistake to begin with, one that God only allowed begrudgingly.
And yet it did, so never mind.
It is the land where Christ was born, lived, minstered and died, and it isn't going to be swept away again because some people don't like it. Israel is back, and the Jews are back.
My question hasn't been answered. What will happen to the Jews if Israel ceases to exist?
Probably nothing if you are talking about Jews living outside Israel.
Diaspora Jews believe that Israel is a safe bolthole in which to escape 'when (not if) they come for us again.
The loss of the state of Israel would be catastrophic to them.
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: 2) Muslims are also followers of the God of Abraham.
Yes, but then there is a pretty significant swing away. That’s the elephant in the room, Muslims believe their interpretation of what God wanted is right, and the Jews and Christians believe their interpretation is right.
You've got that a bit wrong. Muslims, Christians and Jews all believe that their interpretation is right. There's no theological reason to lump Christians and Jews in together as you do.
quote: In the end, it comes down to which one you choose. Me, I’m of the Judeo-Christian persuasion, so I think Israel should be a Jewish state. Muslims should be welcome to live there, but not to turn it into a Muslim state.
Surely as a Christian your preference should be for all states to be Christian? Saying another country should have a state religion that's not Christianity (or no state religion at all) is perfectly fine, of course, but I'm not sure what part of Christianity requires you to decide that that other religion should be Judaism rather than Islam.
Well there is because Christ was a Jew, and the early church was started with Jews, and Jewish teachings pervaded the early church.
There is more that unites Jew and Christian than divides us.
That isn’t true of Islam, in my opinion.
I recognise that Israel will never be Christian. I’m being realistic and not idealistic, and ignoring objective realities is never a good thing. Therefore I have to choose the next best solution, and that is Israel as a Jewish state run by pro-Western, democratic Israeli’s.
I would like the Palestinians to have peace, prosperity and a stable home, but not at the cost of a Palestinian Islamic state. Which in turn means, for me at any rate, that the Palestinians will have to accept a less than perfect solution. They are never going to be given the keys to Jerusalem. It quite simply will not happen.
A number of people over the years have suggested that an ersatz Israel could have been created in Canada or Australia or wherever. Why not go further and have an ersatz Palestine in one of those places? Why not put the idea to the Palestinians that they would be better off going there? Because they would refuse, that’s why, on the basis that they are defined as Palestinians by coming from that region of the Levant, exactly the same reason that Jews define themselves as coming from the same region. They are “of” that region.
-------------------- "The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by deano: There is more that unites Jew and Christian than divides us.
That isn’t true of Islam, in my opinion.
Islam developed out of Christianity, just as Christianity developed out of Judaism.
And as I said previously, Islam recognises Christ as the Messiah. I'd say that's a fairly significant similarity, wouldn't you?
Of course, Muslims in general don't look as similar to "us" as Jews generally do. I realise that's a big factor going against them.
quote: I recognise that Israel will never be Christian. I’m being realistic and not idealistic, and ignoring objective realities is never a good thing. Therefore I have to choose the next best solution, and that is Israel as a Jewish state run by pro-Western, democratic Israeli’s.
Oh yes, that's the other big way in which Muslims aren't as similar to "us" as Jews - they're not "pro-Western". How very dare they?!? No wonder we need to support a country that's trying to ethnically cleanse them from its borders! All shall obey our Western cultural norms or die!
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: 2) Muslims are also followers of the God of Abraham.
Yes, but then there is a pretty significant swing away. That’s the elephant in the room, Muslims believe their interpretation of what God wanted is right, and the Jews and Christians believe their interpretation is right.
You've got that a bit wrong. Muslims, Christians and Jews all believe that their interpretation is right. There's no theological reason to lump Christians and Jews in together as you do.
quote: In the end, it comes down to which one you choose. Me, I’m of the Judeo-Christian persuasion, so I think Israel should be a Jewish state. Muslims should be welcome to live there, but not to turn it into a Muslim state.
Surely as a Christian your preference should be for all states to be Christian? Saying another country should have a state religion that's not Christianity (or no state religion at all) is perfectly fine, of course, but I'm not sure what part of Christianity requires you to decide that that other religion should be Judaism rather than Islam.
Well there is because Christ was a Jew, and the early church was started with Jews, and Jewish teachings pervaded the early church.
There is more that unites Jew and Christian than divides us.
You know, I'm never been convinced of this. Christianity (the clue's in the name) is founded on the belief that Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah. That is the reason it exists. Judaism continued to exist because the majority of Jews at that time rejected this belief. It's a pretty damned big division, really.
I should add that's it's absolutely bleedin' irrelevant to the subject at hand; I try to judge how nations should act on concepts like justice and fairness rather than which particular set of propositions about God or gods they happen to subscribe to. [ 11. December 2012, 15:16: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by deano: A number of people over the years have suggested that an ersatz Israel could have been created in Canada or Australia or wherever. Why not go further and have an ersatz Palestine in one of those places?
This would be because at the time, the vast vast vast majority of Jews were not from or in the Levant. They were largely in Europe or the United States, and had been there (in the case of Europe) for untold centuries. Moving Palestinians out of their homeland and into some other country so that other people can come in and take their fathers' fathers' fathers' lands isn't the same thing as European Jews deciding to move to somewhere "in Canada or Australia or wherever" to escape actual or potential persecution.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut: neither side is conquerable, neither vision can be sustained
Not sure about this. If Israel continues to chew up the West Bank with illegal settlements, eventually there will be nothing left of it, and Israel will have won. I believe this is their goal, and this is why they sabotage the peace process repeatedly.* The United States hasn't the spine to tell them to knock it off and back it up with withdrawal of funds.
______________ *Yes I know the Palestinians have also sabotaged the peace process. That is irrelevant to whether or not Israel has done so. [ 11. December 2012, 15:28: Message edited by: mousethief ]
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by deano: A number of people over the years have suggested that an ersatz Israel could have been created in Canada or Australia or wherever. Why not go further and have an ersatz Palestine in one of those places?
This would be because at the time, the vast vast vast majority of Jews were not from or in the Levant. They were largely in Europe or the United States, and had been there (in the case of Europe) for untold centuries. Moving Palestinians out of their homeland and into some other country so that other people can come in and take their fathers' fathers' fathers' lands isn't the same thing as European Jews deciding to move to somewhere "in Canada or Australia or wherever" to escape actual or potential persecution.
As well, as detailled in Irving Abella's None Is Too Many, Canadian immigration policy at the time was careful in restricting and preventing Jewish immigration to Canada. I don't know about Oz.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: Call me uninformed, but when the Hamas leader speaks about 'when the whole Palestine is liberated.' When he is says 'today is Gaza, tomorrow is Jerusalem and Haifa', what exactly does he mean?
He means that the whole of what is now Israel will be under his rule, and the Jews have all been driven into the Mediterranean or worse. He probably envisages much the same fate for several other groups, Christian Arabs, Druses, the present administration in Ramallah etc.
This. It is a fact avoided by many that Hamas want a Judenrein Middle East. If they had their way the Hebron massacre would happen again but on a much bigger scale.
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: It's not what the Muslims want.
THIS
A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
They don't want it now - they want an entirely Muslim Middle East (apart from wanting an entirely Muslim world!).
If Islam gets hold of Israel there will be a massacre. The whole thing is anti-Semitism writ large.
The church is, once again, displaying the antisemitism it displayed since the second and third centuries.
People like me who highlight anti-semitism among the likes of Hamas sometimes are guilty of this kind of comment. "The Muslims want", like all Muslims like that, or that one group expressed the wishes of all Muslims.
I know plenty Muslims who don't want a "Muslim world". Mudfrog, your wording is scaremongering.
quote: Originally posted by Jade Constable: As for anti-Semitism, Palestinians are Semites too!
That's a commonly held false view. Anti-semitism always was directed only against Jews
quote: My opposition to modern Israel (again, no relation to the Biblical Israel) is based purely on their behaviour as a country and has nothing to do with Israel being a mostly Jewish nation (not entirely, don't pretend Israel is some kind of Jewish haven - gay rights for example are on par with secular countries).
That suggests a dichotomy between Jews and gays. That is false. I know plenty LGBT Jewish people from Israel, some of whom are believers.
quote: Originally posted by Hawk: quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: A two state solution was offered in 1947 - the Arabs rejected it.
Damn straight. If the UN offered to split England and give half of it as a homeland for a minority group of people who've recently immigrated here I'd reject it as well.
It's like someone breaking into your home and offering to cut only one of your legs off, rather than both. And then claiming in court that you rejected his offer and tried to fight him off, so that meant he was perfectly justified in cutting both your legs off and your arms as well.
And the court agreeing.
Why the hell do you think the Palestinians should have accepted such an outrageous 'offer'?
As you rightfully say later, some Jews had been living there for centuries.
From my understanding of history I believe that, on the whole, Jewish immigrants during the 19th and 20th century (pre-war) were largely welcomed or ignored, either as they brought some skills along with them (as migrants tend to do) or because they settled in areas where few were living. I do know that Jews and Muslims were living peacefully with each other and it was only when al-Husseini came on the scene that anti-Jewish feeling arose.
This isn't to negate any crimes done during the War of Indepdence, but the fact is that opposition to two states from the Arab side was partly due to anti-semitism.
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: Maybe in Britain. The majority of American Protestants are pro-Israel.
I believe this is partly helped by Islamophobia. As seen here.
quote: AND being against Zionism is not the same thing as being anti-semitic. That is the Grand Lie of Zionism. Unless you think the anti-Zionist groups of Rabbis are self-hating? You just go ahead and tell them that. I'd say that is a smug and paternalistic attitude, however.
It's been debated here many times, but still it's not so clear to many that:
Anti-Zionism is not necessarily anti-semitic Some of anti-Zionism is anti-semitic Some of anti-Zionism is naive about anti-Semitism in the region
I'll just add: Some of support for Israel is Islamophobic Not all of support for Israel is anti-Palestinian
-------------------- The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: quote: Originally posted by deano: quote: Originally posted by Bullfrog.: If you read Samuel to Kings, it's arguable that the entire establishment of a Jewish nation state was a mistake to begin with, one that God only allowed begrudgingly.
And yet it did, so never mind.
It is the land where Christ was born, lived, minstered and died, and it isn't going to be swept away again because some people don't like it. Israel is back, and the Jews are back.
My question hasn't been answered. What will happen to the Jews if Israel ceases to exist?
Probably nothing if you are talking about Jews living outside Israel.
Diaspora Jews believe that Israel is a safe bolthole in which to escape 'when (not if) they come for us again.
The loss of the state of Israel would be catastrophic to them.
With all due respect, living in perpetual fear does not create conditions for thinking rationally.
Of course, anti-Semitism exists. It exists now when the State of Israel is in existence. We can oppose anti-Semitism vigorously, like opposing all other forms of prejudice or hatred.
But using the fear as motivation for a political action is wrought with danger. We know that the United States have clamped down on civil liberties since 9/11. The justification? Fear of another attack.
Fear as a rationale for political action is an invitation to cease thinking. Its very nature trumps all other rational considerations. Discrimination against sexual minorities was justified on a "fear for children." Discrimination and hatred against immigrants is justified on a fear of the loss of identity.
Our faith as Christians begins with the angel pronouncing to the shepherds, "Fear not."
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Jews in Israel are right to fear, given that Hamas have on their charter the following words:
Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
Source
-------------------- The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: Not all of support for Israel is anti-Palestinian
Not intentionally. But if someone watches their home being bulldozed by the IDF, why should they care if the Americans who vote to send money to support Israel are intentionally anti-Palestinian? De facto anti-Palestinianism, which is what Zionism is, is enough to drive people from their homes.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: Jews in Israel are right to fear, given that Hamas have on their charter the following words: [snip]
It would behoove Israel, then, not to drive the Palestinians into the arms of Hamas.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Channel 4 has a slot, just before 8.00 pm, where anyone can briefly express a view that means a lot to them. Last week an Orthodox view was explaining his opposition the the state of Israel, on religious grounds. Not all Jews (religiously speaking) are Zionists; just as not all Zionists are Jews (religiously speaking).
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Hawk: What is interesting is that although it is true that pre-1949 Jews purchased the land legally, this still caused justifiable anger from the inhabitants. Look at the case of the Jezreel Valley, a place that travellers in the 19th century described as the richest land on earth. It was owned however by absentee landlords such as the Sursock family (who bought the land from the Ottoman government in 1870), and the 8000 Arabs who lived there were legally only tenant farmers, though they had lived there for generations.
It needs also to be said that the reason the Ottoman government "owned" the land is that they purposely increased the taxes until the inhabitants had to sell their land to pay them. Not unreasonably, the inhabitants thought the Ottoman government's "ownership" of their land was bogus, so the selling of that land to absentee landlords, and in turn to Zionist immigrants, was not recognized as valid. "We bought the land fair and square" doesn't hold much truck if you bought it from someone who stole it in the first place
And it's also worth adding as well that the Zionist Corporation didn't just buy ownership, they also went out of their way to make sure that the land was completely dispossessable by the Arabs for ever more. They sold the land to the settlers on the strict proviso, as written in the contracts, that they were only allowed to employ Jews, not Arabs on the land, that no Arab could ever buy the land back, or inherit it in any way. In the words of the Hope Simpson Royal Commission of 1930 quote: "the result of the purchase of land in Palestine by the Jewish National Fund has been that land has been extraterritorialised. It ceases to be land from which the Arab can gain any advantage either now or at any time in the future. Not only can he never hope to lease or to cultivate it, but, by the stringent provisions of the lease of the Jewish National Fund, he is deprived for ever from employment on that land. Nor can anyone help him by purchasing the land and restoring it to common use. The land is in mortmain and inalienable. It is for this reason that Arabs discount the professions of friendship and good will on the part of the Zionists in view of the policy which the Zionist Organisation deliberately adopted...The present position, precluding any employment of Arabs in the Zionist colonies, is undesirable, from the point of view both of justice and of the good government of the country...It is impossible to view with equanimity the extension of an enclave in Palestine from which all Arabs are excluded. The Arab population already regards the transfer of lands to Zionist hands with dismay and alarm. These cannot be dismissed as baseless in the light of the Zionist policy which is described above."
The report seems tragically prescient now.
-------------------- “We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I have just got up, gone online, and checked, inter alia, the Ship, and the headlines in our local left-wing broadsheet (known as the Guardian On The Yarra) which normally would not print anything which could be used in support of Israel.
The latter reports that there will be a Muslim conference held here next year, at which the guest speaker will be the prominent Saudi imam Dr Abdul Rahman Al-Dudais, from Mecca and Medina – clearly not some dismissable, unrepresentative, hole-in-a-corner, deranged Islamist loony.
It claims he has called for violent jihad, and is on record as having prayed to God to “terminate” the Jews, whom he refers to as “scum of the earth” and “monkeys and pigs”.
I have cautioned ad infinitum that Islam is huge and heterogeneous, but nonetheless this imam’s views represents one important strand within the religion, and one which is over-represented in organizations such as Hamas.
Certainly anti-Semitism is not the only factor in the opposition to Israel, but it exists and cannot be ignored.
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: Jews in Israel are right to fear, given that Hamas have on their charter the following words: [snip]
It would behoove Israel, then, not to drive the Palestinians into the arms of Hamas.
Heck, Israel was funding and supporting the predecessors of Hamas (in an attempt to fracture the Palestinian coalition and to weaken Arafat) until the late 1980s. They gave aid and encouragement to them for decades.
Wall Street Journal: How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
(...and there are many other publications, including Haartez who have published similar articles. It's not much of a secret...)
The reason why the Gazans elected Hamas was because it had done an effective job at setting up and running social institutions: medical clinics, hospitals, schools, charities, etc. which were not effectively run by the Palestinian Authority or didn't exist at all. Unlike FATAH they did not tolerate corruption. So many Gazans thought they would do a better job at managing the economy and raising living standards than what they'd dealt with before. I'm sure there are all kinds of viewpoints about the existence of Israel amongst Palestinians, but Hamas came into power mostly because of bread and butter issues. It was Israel that gave the initial support to make that happen. [ 11. December 2012, 19:32: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
-------------------- "Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosa Winkel: As you rightfully say later, some Jews had been living there for centuries.
From my understanding of history I believe that, on the whole, Jewish immigrants during the 19th and 20th century (pre-war) were largely welcomed or ignored, either as they brought some skills along with them (as migrants tend to do) or because they settled in areas where few were living. I do know that Jews and Muslims were living peacefully with each other and it was only when al-Husseini came on the scene that anti-Jewish feeling arose
Actually Al-Husseini probably played on existing tensions. Read the report I linked to in my previous email. Its a fascinating picture of the time. It explains that the previous settler organisation, the P.I.C.A. had ensured that friendly relations with the existing inhabitants was high on their priorities. When developing the land for the settlers and building colonies they ensured they also invested in the Arab land as well. However, this changed in the 1920's with the advent of a new, explicitly Zionist organisation that began to buy land, found settlements, and dictate policy in 1920 called the Keren Hayesod.
quote: the policy of the P.I.C.A. was one of great friendship for the Arab. Not only did they develop the Arab lands simultaneously with their own, when founding their colonies, but they employed the Arab to tend their plantations, cultivate their fields, to pluck their grapes and their oranges. As a general rule the P.I.C.A. colonisation was of unquestionable benefit to the Arabs of the vicinity. It is also very noticeable, in travelling through the P.I.C.A. villages, to see the friendliness of the relations which exist between Jew and Arab. It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house. The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies.
The report goes into detail that this old way of settlement building, with its care about ensuring friendly relations with the Arabs, was starting to disappear even by 1930. And the Zionist policy of dispossessing the Arabs completely in favour of the Jews was dominating as Zionists put pressure even on existing settlements to follow their way.
-------------------- “We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: Certainly anti-Semitism is not the only factor in the opposition to Israel, but it exists and cannot be ignored.
I don't see that anybody on this thread has said otherwise. But I would rephrase what you have said to read that anti-Semitism is not the only factor in SOME opposition to Israel. It is not a factor at all in some other people's opposition.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: Certainly anti-Semitism is not the only factor in the opposition to Israel, but it exists and cannot be ignored.
I don't see that anybody on this thread has said otherwise. But I would rephrase what you have said to read that anti-Semitism is not the only factor in SOME opposition to Israel. It is not a factor at all in some other people's opposition.
Fair enough.
Admittedly syntactically infelicitous, though I imagine most readers would have understood what I meant in context.
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Israel must be suported - they, with us, are the people of YHWH and it is a disgrace that Christians do not stand with Israel.
Aren't all human beings God's children? Does He place more value on the well-being of a Jew than of a Palestinian? Did Christ not come for the Muslims as well?
Do you really think he cares that much about nationalistic, ethnocentric pissing matches?
quote: Originally posted by Mudfrog: That doesn't mean we have to agree with their policies, but our default position should be solidarity with them.
Okay, so the fact that the Israeli's actively persecutes Christians should not deter Christian Churches from sending them a shitload of cash each year? We can disagree with their bullheadedness, but God forbid we do anything to alter their actions?
-------------------- "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
So the 8% of Palestinians that are Christians (and have been for centuries) are not the people of YHWH and should be thrown under the bus? Am I really understanding this correctly?
Ummmm... Doesn't evangelical Salvationist orthodoxy say that Christians are saved through faith in Christ and Jews who deny Christ are not saved? (That was certainly taught in the Salvationist university I went to.) Yet in this case, Jews are the people of YHWH and Christians are not? Wow. Pretty mixed up. [ 12. December 2012, 02:52: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
-------------------- "Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think for some it has less to do with the salvation of the Jews and more to do with the presumed Jewish role in immanentizing the eschaton.
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I would agree. It's the only thing that makes sense: Christians aren't supposed to stand with other Christians in the face of persecution, but with the non-Christians who are persecuting Christians.
But this disturbing belief ultimately turns Jews into objects, who are being used to usher in some hyper-literal Revelation vision of the apocalypse and then cast away into hell, instead of people. Both groups of people end up being screwed over.
It's pretty crap theology all around and this theology causes suffering on both sides.
-------------------- "Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
A couple of things I didn't know.
1. The PLO were expelled from Jordan in 1970.
2. Egypt wants to isolate the PLO and Palestinians outside of Egyptian territory.
I did know that sectarian violence between groups and sects of Islam is a very real problem. If Israel was erased, then the remaining groups could keep on killing each other. Remember the Iran-Iraq war?
On another topic in this thread, if you want to read about Jews being relocated outside of Israel, try Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policemen's Union. The Jews were defeated in 1948 and relocated to Alaska. Its a murder mystery set in the Jewish settlement.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ToujoursDan: I would agree. It's the only thing that makes sense: Christians aren't supposed to stand with other Christians in the face of persecution, but with the non-Christians who are persecuting Christians.
But Palestinian Christians aren't REAL Christians. They're primarily Orthodox or Roman Catholic or worse. Not Jesus-loving Protestants.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ToujoursDan: So the 8% of Palestinians that are Christians (and have been for centuries)....
Not 8% for centuries. It was more than that in the recent past. No-one knows for sure when Syria and Palestine became majority Muslim but it was well after the Arab conquest. Possibly even in early modern times.
The Islamicisation of Palestine speeded up inthe 20th century, possibly partly because of the resistance to Israel. In at least some quarters being Muslim was seen as part of being really Arab, so as Aran nationalism grew, so did pressure to convert. Also Arabs with a Christian background emigrated more.
But yes, it does seem odd that some Christians are using the Bible as grounds for driving the descendents of the Apostles from the Holy Land. Whatever religion they now profess.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I didn't say that 8% of Palestine have been Christian for centuries (the % was higher until recently - the % lowered because of emmigration) but that those who are Christian have been Christian for centuries. They aren't new converts - or converts for convenience.
I probably should have been clearer. [ 12. December 2012, 17:43: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
-------------------- "Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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