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Source: (consider it) Thread: Does the UK need a in-out referendum on the EU?
mdijon
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As a German taxpayer I'd feel warm and fuzzy inside to see that paying through the nose to prop up failing economies around Europe is accepted with such fine grace. It must make it feel almost worth it for them.

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Matt Black

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Not a secret intent so much as a geo-econo-political inevitability.

[cp with mdijon]

[ 10. December 2012, 14:59: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
a series of posts about how the Germans are secretly intent on continental domination

Who said anything about "secretly"?

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Rosa Winkel

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I'm from Britain. I live in Poland. I have a business in Germany, where I do a lot of work. In Germany I am treated fairly equally. Here as well, though I cannot register myself for more than a year, and things like health insurance have to go through my wife. The tri-national dimension of my life does in fact raise complications regarding registration, health insurance and pension, but slowly things are getting sorted.

But all in all, being class 1 EU helps me.

If Britain was to leave the EU my life would get much more complicated. It would also leave to a greater anti-British prejudice, something that would effect me. Already people tell me that "Brits are arrogant" and "think they are better than us" and the such.

The EU is simply a convenient scapegoat, used by various politicans to distract from real issues (jobs, workers' rights, health, schooling, the environment) and whipped up by a sales-hungry media, going down the nationalist line.

That's not to say that all criticism of the EU is nationalist. There are sound left-wing reasons for criticising the EU. Thing is, the media doesn't give voice to those reasons, choosing rather to invite some right-wing soundbite producer.

British business by the way is massively against GB leaving the EU.

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Robert Armin

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Some time ago a friend who is MUCH better versed in international politics than I, told me that the French forced the Euro on Germany as the price for accepting reunification - his overall argument being that the entire Euro exercise was part of the overall French strategy of running Europe. Most of the comments on this thread go directly against his idea. Does it seem plausible to anyone?

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Sighthound
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It seems to me that the only way to make the EU satisfactory is to turn it into something like the USA. On that analogy, the capital would need to be somewhere like Luxembourg, not in one of the major states.

The snag is I am pretty sure the majority of the people of Europe don't want this, and I'm even more sure the people of the UK don't.

Much that is otherwise inexplicable about this 'institution' can be understood if you accept that the elite have been trying to take baby steps towards this objective all along.

I actually think such a union would be preferable to the present mess. In principle I would love to go back to an independent UK, I just don't think it's practical. So I'd prefer a proper, democratic Euro state with defined rights for the constituent states - maximum devolution, or subsidiarity, or whatever you like to call it. I have reluctantly come to think that's the best of a bad set of options.

Won't happen though as the Daily Mail won't approve.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
It seems to me that the only way to make the EU satisfactory is to turn it into something like the USA.

Why? What for? Who wants to do that? What would be the point?

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Ken

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Matt Black

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Even if that sort of 'half-way house' ('confederal'?) situation is to happen, there has to be much much more democratic accountability for the governing institutions than we presently have.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Some time ago a friend who is MUCH better versed in international politics than I, told me that the French forced the Euro on Germany as the price for accepting reunification - his overall argument being that the entire Euro exercise was part of the overall French strategy of running Europe. Most of the comments on this thread go directly against his idea. Does it seem plausible to anyone?

I think that is the accepted wisdom. It seems to have backfired on the French though, in the same way that extending the membership to include Eastern European states was a strategy of the British which seems to have backfired on them. The irony is that when unification came the adoption of the Deutschmark in the East had the effect of overnight deindustrialisation whilst giving the former West Germany an enormous advantage. One wonders why the countries joining the Euro didn't see the dangers being repeated on a much grander scale. The French will quite soon really regret their membership of the Single Currency because the East-West German imbalances were solved by massive capital transfers from West to East but that is never going to happen within the EuroZone without the Germans calling all the tunes.

The Euro is rapidly destroying the EU and any vote on membership will probably be otiose as the EU as it is currently constituted will soon be defunct.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:

The Euro is rapidly destroying the EU and any vote on membership will probably be otiose as the EU as it is currently constituted will soon be defunct.

What do you see taking its place, then, aumbry?

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AberVicar
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I'm from Britain. I live in Poland. I have a business in Germany, where I do a lot of work. In Germany I am treated fairly equally. Here as well, though I cannot register myself for more than a year, and things like health insurance have to go through my wife. The tri-national dimension of my life does in fact raise complications regarding registration, health insurance and pension, but slowly things are getting sorted.

But all in all, being class 1 EU helps me.

If Britain was to leave the EU my life would get much more complicated. It would also leave to a greater anti-British prejudice, something that would effect me. Already people tell me that "Brits are arrogant" and "think they are better than us" and the such.

The EU is simply a convenient scapegoat, used by various politicans to distract from real issues (jobs, workers' rights, health, schooling, the environment) and whipped up by a sales-hungry media, going down the nationalist line.

That's not to say that all criticism of the EU is nationalist. There are sound left-wing reasons for criticising the EU. Thing is, the media doesn't give voice to those reasons, choosing rather to invite some right-wing soundbite producer.

British business by the way is massively against GB leaving the EU.

This.

From someone who knows.

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
It seems to me that the only way to make the EU satisfactory is to turn it into something like the USA.

Why? What for? Who wants to do that? What would be the point?
Cos the present situation is shite democratically.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

British business by the way is massively against GB leaving the EU.

British Business in the guise of the CBI was massively in favour of joining the Euro and we don't hear anything from them about that any more. In fact almost every one of the CBI's predictions were wrong in that regard. British business has hardly prospered mightily in the EU where the UK has a massive trade deficit so I would take your assertion with a pinch of salt. British business needs to start trading with the rest of the world and EU regulatory red tape does nothing to help that.
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Matt Black

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As far as trade is concerned, we need to be majoring much more on the BRICs than the EU and certainly the PIIGs

[ 10. December 2012, 15:44: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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Sighthound
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As Matt Black says, it would sort out the democratic issues with the EU and bring it under democratic control. It would even be possible (with a central fiscal system) to make the Euro work.

Look, this *really* goes against the grain with me. I have been the Eurosceptic of Eurosceptics. But I am also a pragmatist and a realist, and my general view in life is that if the best solution is impossible, one has to settle for the least worst option. And I believe a proper European State is that. The present set up or anything like it, is just hopeless, and breeds resentment and cynicism. A UK outside the EU would have all kinds of problems to solve - frankly the present breed of politicians are just not up to solving them, they can't even come up with cogent policies to resolve the much more straightforward ones before them now. What is the point of being like Norway, paying the full subscription but not being on the Committee or having a vote at the AGM? I just don't see what we could gain from it.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
British business needs to start trading with the rest of the world and EU regulatory red tape does nothing to help that.

British manufacturing business hardly exists since the Thatcher era (nb I said 'era', not necessarily apportioning blame), so there is not much to trade with. Either in the EU or elsewhere.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
It seems to me that the only way to make the EU satisfactory is to turn it into something like the USA.

Why? What for? Who wants to do that? What would be the point?
Cos the present situation is shite democratically.
Then fix it. But proposing some sort of centralised "United States of Europe" just plays into the hands of the Little Englanders whoi can say that's what we really wanted all along.

quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
..., in the same way that extending the membership to include Eastern European states was a strategy of the British which seems to have backfired on them.

Assuming you mean central European states, it hasn;t backfired. Its been massively successful. Win-win all round.


90% of the benefit of the EU comes from free movement across borders and and the right to live and work in other countries. Most of the rest comes from trade standards. (The Human Rights courts are important too of course, but they aren't EU)

We need to keep up with enlarging the EU as fast as we can - get Turkey in for certain - and weaken rather than strengthen the central institutions.

Also, seriously, as for improving democracy, does anyone really think the US federal electoral system is significantly more open, free, or democratic than than Frane or Germany (or VBHritain minus the House of Lords)? If we have anything to learn about democracy from the Americans its their local politics, which they do much more democratically than we do (jn Britain) not their national politics.

[ 10. December 2012, 16:03: Message edited by: ken ]

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
a series of posts about how the Germans are secretly intent on continental domination

Who said anything about "secretly"?
And even if they are, openly or secretly, why should it bother us? I suspect that a lot of this anti-german stuff is because we know, deep in our hearts, that in almost every respect - education, industrial relations, technology, productivity, constitution- they're better than we are, and it's scant consolation to know that they owe a lot of this to our influence on their postwar reconstruction!

[ 10. December 2012, 16:06: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
90% of the benefit of the EU comes from free movement across borders and and the right to live and work in other countries.

Benefit for whom?

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
British business needs to start trading with the rest of the world and EU regulatory red tape does nothing to help that.

British manufacturing business hardly exists since the Thatcher era (nb I said 'era', not necessarily apportioning blame), so there is not much to trade with. Either in the EU or elsewhere.
That is just not true. Britain is the sixth largest manufacturing nation in the world. Manufacturing represents 12% if the economy and 83% of exports. It is also the only hope of increasing levels of employment as services and the public sector cannot be expected to show a lot of future growth.
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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Manufacturing represents 12% if the economy and 83% of exports.

The former figure sounds rather minor, and the latter may simply reflect the fact that we don't export anything very much. I certainly wouldn't expect us to export much in the way of raw materials from the UK, which is presumably the 17% then.

(Next you'll be telling us that we're not xenophobes, since 100% of our exports go abroad).

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
90% of the benefit of the EU comes from free movement across borders and and the right to live and work in other countries.

Benefit for whom?
A benefit indeed for people living in countries with convergent economies were the flow is likely to be both ways but a disaster where this is not the case. This will be massively exacerbated when Bulgaria and Romania get full rights of free movement. These countries can expect to see substantial portions of their skilled workers and youth leaving.

Turkey is unlikely ever to see free movement even if it got some sort of membership because the French and German political classes would never countenance it. However if one compares the performance of Turkey outside the EU with the southern states in the EU one would wonder why the Turks would want membership.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
90% of the benefit of the EU comes from free movement across borders and and the right to live and work in other countries.

Benefit for whom?
Almost everybody.

I like reedom. Its a positive good. Governments and police ought not to tell people where to live or work.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Manufacturing represents 12% if the economy and 83% of exports.

The former figure sounds rather minor, and the latter may simply reflect the fact that we don't export anything very much. I certainly wouldn't expect us to export much in the way of raw materials from the UK, which is presumably the 17% then.

(Next you'll be telling us that we're not xenophobes, since 100% of our exports go abroad).

12% of the economy is actually a bigger slice than the USA it is on a par with countries like France and only below par in comparison with Germany. Britain is a world leading manufacturer in pharmaceuticals and aerospance and is gaining ground in the automotive industries.

The 17% of exports that are not manufactures are services (where did you get the idea that these were raw materials?)and considering that includes the output of the City of London one of the World's leading financial centres it shows how strong manufacturing is. The problem that Britain has is not that it has a failing manufacturing sector but that it lives beyond its means and imports too much.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
90% of the benefit of the EU comes from free movement across borders and and the right to live and work in other countries.

Benefit for whom?
Almost everybody.

I like reedom. Its a positive good. Governments and police ought not to tell people where to live or work.

Except it is not freedom - in most cases it is forced on people by economic necessity. Yours is the freedom of movement of the rich.
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Matariki
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I know there are EU Sceptics on the left in the UK (rather like the Scandinavian EU sceptics) but overwhelmingly the agitation for withdrawl seems to be from the right.
It seems on the right of British - no English - politics there remains an element which is not reconciled to the UK being a medium sized power. It is interesting to see how UKIP would also unwind devolution within the UK. I can see that really being a vote winner in Scotland and Wales! EU sceptics have valid issues when they talk about democratic accountability (though I suspect the coherent answer is more Europe not less)but really what seems to motivate them is a hearking back to what seeemd to them to be a more satisfying state of affairs

[ 10. December 2012, 18:29: Message edited by: Matariki ]

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deano
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The value of what we manufacture is higher now in the UK than anytime in our history. Of course we don't make lots of cheap things anymore, we've moved up the value chain and we make a smaller number of high-value goods.

See here.

So we aren't such a bad proposition for investment as some would have us believe.

Yes the current recession is having an effect, but the trend is that we manufacture plenty of stuff and it makes us big profits. Those profits go to the shareholders and investors and they spend that money, either on other investments or on other goods and services.

The article also explains that manufacturing hasn't declined in absolute terms in the UK. Instead other areas of the economy have grown, leading to a relative decline.

But if we do have a referendum, we need time to explain these things to the electorate so they gat to make a decision based on facts, not supposition. Which is why I say a long campaign will be needed.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
It seems on the right of British - no English - politics there remains an element which is not reconciled to the UK being a medium sized power.

I've heard this sort of talk before. I remember vividly Paddy Ashdown saying in 1999/2000 that if Britain didn't join the Euro, the pound would 'be like a cork bobbing in the sea between two ocean liners'. (I think we were meant to interpret that metaphor negatively, not that cork floats and ships can sink.)

A dozen or so years later and you'll now here Paddy Ashdown say that if Britain leaves the EU she will be 'like a cork bobbing in the ocean'.

The fact that EU enthusiasts were so wrong about Britain's membership of the single currency has hardened my thinking that they're wrong about the EU now.

EU enthusiasts seem to talk a lot about Britain as a 'medium-sized power' as if we are Austria or Sweden. We're not. Ok, we're not the United States or China, but we are one of the largest economies in the world, with a strong diplomatic and military presence, which makes me think that we could hold our own in the world, if necessary, without a Brussels bureaucracy behind us.

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Albertus
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But why should we want to? What's wrong with being like Austria or Sweden (both prosperous, cheerful countries which manage- Sweden, certainly- to make themselves fairly useful in the world without being distracted by the bother and expense of having to live up to a past as a Great World Power TM)?
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Palimpsest
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Another way of looking at the current EU and German domination is that they are learning if they take over all of Europe they'll never be able to retire. [Smile]
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Matariki
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I would have thought there is a different impact on the world for a small country of 8 or 9 million like Austria or Sweden, or indeed a country of 4.5 million like my adopted homeland New Zealand and the UK with 60+ million, which must be a medium to large country.

Watching the debate from afar I see a rediscovery of the Commonwealth amongst EU sceptics but the reality is that some 40 years after the UK joined the EEC (as it then was) Commonwealth countries have adjusted to a changed and changing world. Thinly veiled imperial nostalgia cuts no ice over here. When Heath took Britain into the EEC it was based on a level headed consideration of Britain's interests - have those interests really changed?

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Cod
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From where I sit, a UK departure from the EU would benefit New Zealand moderately well. New Zealand used to send 80% of its exports to the UK. These were mostly foodstuffs and primary produce such as wool. The UK has now been overtaken by China, Australia and the US amongst others and now only takes (I think) about 8%.

Entry into the EEC put the UK behind a tariff wall, which disadvantaged NZ produce in favour of EU produce. If that were to be removed, one would expect NZ exports to the UK to increase.

However, I can't see what benefit would accrue to the UK from this, except for slighly cheaper lamb, butter and cheap cheese.

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Cod
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Ahh.. the delightful debate about whether Scotland will automatically be an EU member.

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

On the subject of Scottish independence, I listened to a report on the Today programme last week and it said that the EU had confirmed that if Scotland left the UK, it would no longer be in the EU as of right because the EU membership is in the name of the United Kingdom.

The UK government have taken legal advice which concurs with this. So, I understand, has the EC. Alex Salmond earlier suggested he had advice to the contrary, but was then forced to admit that he had taken no legal advice at all.

For those interested, this is the position.

1. The UK is a unitary state. That is to say that it is not a collective group of states (like, say, the USA). This point is often missed; because the UK contains historic divisions, people sometimes believe that those divisions (England, Scotland, Wales, NI) retain some sort of latent sovereignty. They don't. The position is this:
- 1536: England ate Wales.
- 1707: Scotland and England amalgamate into a new state called Great Britain.
- 1801: Great Britain and Ireland amalgamate into a new state called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
- 1922: Irish Free State splits off from the UKoGB&I, which then becomes the UKoGB&NI.

Likewise, the Scottish Parliament is in no way a revival of the pre-1707 parliament. It is entirely a new creation by the Westminster Parliament with no inherent sovereignty of its own. Politics aside, the Westminster Parliament could abolish it any time it chose.

2. Therefore if Scotland opts to leave the UK, a new state will be created: there is no basis on which to say that Scotland "resumes" its independence.

3. There is also therefore no basis to say that the 1707 Union has been in any sense 'dissolved'. that Union was in any event succeeded by the 1801 Union with Ireland.

4. In short, the rump-UK will continue with existing rights and obligations. Scotland will start afresh. There are some potential benefits to this - no indebted banks for example. On the other hand, Scotland will also not be party to any treaties.

This is where the EU comes in.

The EU is a creation of treaty: states become members by becoming parties to treaties. They then devolve power upon Brussels to make laws which have effect in the parties' jurisdiction. To give an example, there is in a strict sense no such thing as EU law: all directives and so on have force in the UK by virtue of certain Acts of (the Westminster) Parliament.

What this of course means is that a newly independent Scotland will not be party to any of the EU treaties and will thus have to apply for membership. Of course Scotland might be expected to get it, but it shouldn't be presumed: Spain might want to send Catalonia a message by using its veto. The rump-UK might threaten use of its veto to drive a bargain in respect of North Sea oil or RBS/HBOS debt. One should not assume that the law is abrogated by high politics. It merely becomes an ingredient of it.

For the same reason, Scotland would have no enforceable claim to have input into how sterling is managed, contrary to what Salmond claims.

The nationalists have really got this one wrong.

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
The UK government have taken legal advice which concurs with this. So, I understand, has the EC. Alex Salmond earlier suggested he had advice to the contrary, but was then forced to admit that he had taken no legal advice at all.

<snipped>

The nationalists have really got this one wrong.

The Scottish Independance issue is now dead in the water.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
From where I sit, a UK departure from the EU would benefit New Zealand moderately well. New Zealand used to send 80% of its exports to the UK. These were mostly foodstuffs and primary produce such as wool. The UK has now been overtaken by China, Australia and the US amongst others and now only takes (I think) about 8%.

Entry into the EEC put the UK behind a tariff wall, which disadvantaged NZ produce in favour of EU produce. If that were to be removed, one would expect NZ exports to the UK to increase.

However, I can't see what benefit would accrue to the UK from this, except for slighly cheaper lamb, butter and cheap cheese.

An excellent point that outside the EU there would be a marked reduction in the cost of foodstuffs in the World Market as well as a revival of the British fishing industry outside the disasterous Common Fisheries Policy. Of course EU countries are unlikely to put up trade barriers against Britain as Britain is a bigger market for their exports than they are for Britain. If they did the countries that would suffer most would be Ireland, France and Denmark.
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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
It seems on the right of British - no English - politics there remains an element which is not reconciled to the UK being a medium sized power.

I for one am perfectly content with Britain being a medium-sized power.

If it came to it, I'd far rather Britain be an insignificant but independent country than an insignificant region of a massive superstate. At least we'd still be able to govern ourselves based on what we want to do rather than what everyone else tells us to do.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But why should we want to?

Because self-determination is a good thing.

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
We're staying in and Turkey will join and that's great. Get over yourselves you pompous xenophobes.

I wouldn't be so keen on Turkey joining the EU if recent history is anything to go by. As a democracy it is incredibly unstable by all accounts, with something like four military coups in the last half a century or so, it has seen a marked turn to suppression of freedom of thought and expression and a slow creep back to radical Islamisation under the AK party. Look to the treatment of the pianist Say for recent events amongst others.

Turkey has as much chance of joining the EU as Makronisos has of becoming the EU industrial hub.

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Matt Black

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Presumably you'd therefore support Scottish and Welsh independence on that ground?

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Matt Black

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[Hope people realise that my last post was in reply to Marvin.]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Presumably you'd therefore support Scottish and Welsh independence on that ground?

If they want it, yes. I've posted to that effect a number of times.

Hell, I'd be OK with Cornwall becoming an independent country should it so desire.

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Presumably you'd therefore support Scottish and Welsh independence on that ground?

An argument against the EU, and arguments for self-determination, do not then equate to a race to the smallest possible group of people being self-determining (or you could end up with a situation where Llanwrtyd Wells decides it wants to seceed from Wales). The ability of a community to function properly and sustainably is to find the right size of population and territory to adequately provide and maintain it's citizens. Before you go onto point out that there are small nations which function rather well, I will take the example of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Despite being self-determining territories, they have a relationship of mutual support and reliance with the UK due to being too small to fully support themselves adequately. On the flip side if a political area becomes too large it becomes problematic designing and enacting legislation that works effectively and fairly for the large majority of citizens - if you water down legislation to accomodate everyone you end up with legislation which helps nobody and angers everybody.

Finding the right balance of size for a political territory is part of being a community spirited being and does not then rule out cross-boundry mutual relationships and workings for example NATO works perfectly well in the form it has without a supra-national governance.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
The ability of a community to function properly and sustainably is to find the right size of population and territory to adequately provide and maintain it's citizens.

The question is, who gets to decide what that size is? Is it the people in the area itself (be it Wales or Llanwrtyd Wells), is it the people in the wider area from which it would be seceding, or is it the government of the larger area?

Regardless of whether Llanwrtyd Wells could survive as a sustainable independent nation, I am wary of any attitude from the government that says they shouldn't have the right to try if they want to. It starts to sound like "we" can and should override "their" desires (and stay in power over them) for their own good, and that reeks of the worst paternalistic justifications of Empire.

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
The ability of a community to function properly and sustainably is to find the right size of population and territory to adequately provide and maintain it's citizens.

The question is, who gets to decide what that size is? Is it the people in the area itself (be it Wales or Llanwrtyd Wells), is it the people in the wider area from which it would be seceding, or is it the government of the larger area?

Regardless of whether Llanwrtyd Wells could survive as a sustainable independent nation, I am wary of any attitude from the government that says they shouldn't have the right to try if they want to. It starts to sound like "we" can and should override "their" desires (and stay in power over them) for their own good, and that reeks of the worst paternalistic justifications of Empire.

I'm not denying that they have the right to try, but it is up to the people of the area wanting to become independent to decide. Determining the appropriate size of territory, population and resources required is an economic factor coupled with the expected standard of living. If an area wishes to do away with all forms of state welfare, have no hospitals etc. etc. adn go back to a self-sufficient form of farming then a small population with a small area of territory will find it relatively easy, however most people in Wales who want independence wish to keep all tehir modern hospitals, the welfare state, government infrastructure programmes etc. etc. and then the debate falls on those wishing independence to prove how the territory can be viable after independence.

Slightly o/t and going away from your actual point: I'm no apologist for the Empire, neither do I feel a need to be wracked with Colonial guilt, I find it demeaning and unnecessary especially since the UK seems to be the only place in the world that continues to apologise for once having had an empire (have you heard the USA apologise for it's historical imperial ambitions?)

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Slightly o/t and going away from your actual point: I'm no apologist for the Empire, neither do I feel a need to be wracked with Colonial guilt, I find it demeaning and unnecessary especially since the UK seems to be the only place in the world that continues to apologise for once having had an empire (have you heard the USA apologise for it's historical imperial ambitions?)

The Germans are deeply apologetic for their behaviour in South West Africa, whilst embarrassing Belgians over the Congo Free State is shooting fish in a barrel.

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Slightly o/t and going away from your actual point: I'm no apologist for the Empire, neither do I feel a need to be wracked with Colonial guilt, I find it demeaning and unnecessary especially since the UK seems to be the only place in the world that continues to apologise for once having had an empire (have you heard the USA apologise for it's historical imperial ambitions?)

The Germans are deeply apologetic for their behaviour in South West Africa, whilst embarrassing Belgians over the Congo Free State is shooting fish in a barrel.
I'm happy to be corrected - though I'm not sure that wikipedia entrys that detail the atrocities that occured is the same as a continuous national apology and a continued sense of colonial guilt on the issue...

But anyhow I'm happy to take your point and be further educated.

[ 11. December 2012, 12:23: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]

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Rosa Winkel

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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I find it demeaning and unnecessary especially since the UK seems to be the only place in the world that continues to apologise for once having had an empire (have you heard the USA apologise for it's historical imperial ambitions?)

So if no-one is doing the right thing then the British shouldn't? Strange argument.

In any case:

Hollande ends denials for massacre of Algerians

Belgium PM apologies for assassination in the Congo

Netherlands apologises for Indonesian massacre

Japanese government apologises to South Korea

Berlusconi apologises to Libya

German government apologises for genocide in Namibia

There are plenty examples of German dealing with their "Third Reich" past, of course.

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
[qb] I find it demeaning and unnecessary especially since the UK seems to be the only place in the world that continues to apologise for once having had an empire (have you heard the USA apologise for it's historical imperial ambitions?)

So if no-one is doing the right thing then the British shouldn't? Strange argument.
See above.

No, I'm not making a case that because others do not, we should not, but making a case that eventually you leave the history to be just that, history. Don't rewrite, continue to teach it as part of a nations history, but at somepoint you have to stop having outpourings of guilt about the historical events that occured or I may as well use the reductio ad absurdum structure and expect the people of nation X to apologise for the atrocities of some empire thousands of years ago since they are the cultural and biologicl descendents of the people who controlled that empire.

Perversely, the flip side, IMHO, of having a self-enforced colonial guilt is that of having 'colonial' (the word being used loosely now) guilt forced upon you by those you mistreated... surely the anti-semetism of medieval Europe is this guilt being forced on an entire group of people for the actions of a few a thousand years before hand... in someway the people of medieaval europe expected the Jews to feel guilty about their atrocious actions for murdering Jesus, so we shall enforce them to have that sense of guilt and punish them for their actions at the sametime...

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Rosa Winkel

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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
See above.

Your reply to ES was about wikipedia, something I didn't link to.

quote:
No, I'm not making a case that because others do not, we should not, but making a case that eventually you leave the history to be just that, history. Don't rewrite, continue to teach it as part of a nations history, but at somepoint you have to stop having outpourings of guilt about the historical events that occured or I may as well use the reductio ad absurdum structure and expect the people of nation X to apologise for the atrocities of some empire thousands of years ago since they are the cultural and biologicl descendents of the people who controlled that empire.
Strangely enough I was having a discussion about this last Saturday with an international group who'd visited the House of the Wannsee Conference the day before. We spoke about whether guilt can be inherited. The group came to the view that guilt can not be inherited, but that the consequences of past actions can be. Luckily I know many Germans who take responsibility for the actions done in their name (i.e. the "German" name).

"Outpourings of guilt" is an exaggeration. Simply saying "we regret" or "we apologise" doesn't imply "outpourings". They offer a recognition of what has happened. That in itself (say, with the Hillsborough disaster and the release of documents this September) is healing, the telling of truth. Paying of compensation doesn't offer a writing of wrongs, but the fact is that those who faced hate-crimes in the name of the British empire have been adversely effected by what the British empire did, and some payments for those people and their families (who also suffered through what happened to their family members) is entirely appropriate. GB has a long, long way to go.

I do actually know Germans who call for a "end line" like you call for. They see history as linear, where you can cut off effects of the past. That is wrong, the effects of history live with us whether we think about them or not. It's simply impossible to have an "end line". It also should be noted that any "tax burden" or sense of discomfort caused by addressing the history of ones nation is nowhere near the discomfort faced by those effected, or those who still suffer due to actions of the past. The Brits are not victims of colonial history.

quote:
Perversely, the flip side, IMHO, of having a self-enforced colonial guilt is that of having 'colonial' (the word being used loosely now) guilt forced upon you by those you mistreated... surely the anti-semetism of medieval Europe is this guilt being forced on an entire group of people for the actions of a few a thousand years before hand... in someway the people of medieaval europe expected the Jews to feel guilty about their atrocious actions for murdering Jesus, so we shall enforce them to have that sense of guilt and punish them for their actions at the sametime...
Ironically there is a form of anti-semitism in Germany (also here in Poland to some extent) that goes down this route: "These Jews want to talk about how bad we are in order to get money". Simply calling oneself a victim doesn't amount to being a victim. In fact there was more to medieval anti-semitism than accusations of "killing God". Note that I am not here calling anyone a Nazi, included those modern Germans I mention.

Germany (largely west Germany) does a lot of work with its past. Not a lot know this, but this came due to pressure from outside: The publication of the Anne Frank diaries in 1959, pressure from the French government regarding the first memorial to appear in Dachau and the American "Holocaust" programme, for example. Many Germans saw (some still do) themselves as being "forced" to address their past. I daresay that British people would be pressuring the German people to address bombings in GB during WWII if they hadn't already done so. I see outward pressure as good. That some will see themselves as victims is a minor concern for me.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
The ability of a community to function properly and sustainably is to find the right size of population and territory to adequately provide and maintain it's citizens.

The question is, who gets to decide what that size is? Is it the people in the area itself (be it Wales or Llanwrtyd Wells), is it the people in the wider area from which it would be seceding, or is it the government of the larger area?

Regardless of whether Llanwrtyd Wells could survive as a sustainable independent nation, I am wary of any attitude from the government that says they shouldn't have the right to try if they want to. It starts to sound like "we" can and should override "their" desires (and stay in power over them) for their own good, and that reeks of the worst paternalistic justifications of Empire.

Where this argument breaks down is at what point do you say you are too small a unit to be allowed to do this? The people in Arcacia Drive, Llanwrtyd Wells may consider their interests are not being looked after by the Peoples Republic of Llanwrtyd Wells and call UDI. Where would it end?

What about the minorities?

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